Suzuki Grand Vitara vs Subaru Forester vs Hyundai Santa Fe vs Jeep Liberty vs Ford Escape vs Saturn

bajabill · May 2001

Putting your Hyundai into commercial service (delivery) voids the warranty. Have I seen some photos of such actions?

Thanks for the wrnty info, I guess it is just easier to say, "It has a 10 year warranty" rather than tell the nitty gritty details. Advantage, nobody

vin_weasel · May 2001

Just to fill in a few more models I looked at and their prices to add to the list guyf1 presented. The Forester S with no extra options was $33,345 MRSP, cost $30,500, the best I managed to do was about $32,295. The Rav 4 "C" package (similar to the american "L") $30,880 MRSP, $28,018 cost and I had a salesman ready to sell one for $29,500. Finally, the Cherokee Sport is $33,115 (no ABS) MRSP, $29,218 Cost and with a $3000 rebate I'm getting one for $27,200. Add ABS and it would be around $28,000.

Toyota and Jeep both offer a $1000 after tax grad rebate which I would have claimed as well. All of the vehicles above have similar option levels as they were all the ones I was looking at and fit the option list I had. In other words there is a large price difference between the upscale models and these "mini-utes" but they are all relatively priced with each other.

sasquatch_2000 · May 2001

"Yes Juice, H rated tire handle the heat better than the S. With the Explorer saga in the US it can be a major factor in the hottest climates but is not a problem up here."

I am surprised that Firestone does not ship all the recalled tires to Canada, Scandinavia, Greenland, Iceland, Siberia, etc. for cold use.

Who knows, maybe they do. For that matter, they probably send them to Africa and Central America.

tonychrys · May 2001

From what I'm reading here, it seems you folks don't have much "wiggle room" when it comes to pricing. It seems the manufacturers are quick to throw rebates and incentives around here south of the border.

One thing Canadians do have an advantage on I believe is that dealers are not allowed to charge above MSRP there. True?

Plus, a lot of times vehicles are "packaged" with a lot of stuff as standard rather than the myraid of options picking that happens on the US models. I know it's true on a couple of models I researched, like the Pathfinder LE for example.

ateixeira · May 2001

Bill: that sounds like a good deal for 200hp. You didn't need AWD? My L was just $19.2k with AWD, and transaction prices are actually lower now.

The Ls actually come with 70 series S-rated tires, but I swapped the rims for alloys with H-rated 60 series tires. Much better, in both ride (less bouncy) and handling (far sportier). The S comes with better tires to begin with.

FWIW, the RAV4 L does not quite match the Forester S for equipment. It has rear drum brakes instead of discs, and I think ABS is extra. It also has a single CD player, while the S has a 6 CD changer, plus no heated seats.

Toyota nickel-and-dimes you for every little option. If you add everything the S has, like a rear bumper (!), it'll end up costing more.

-juice

vin_weasel · May 2001

The Subaru dealership in my city was charging $1500 over MRSP and calling it MRSP. I called him on it and he said "It was the cost of doing business in this town". I left and consequently didn't buy a Forester. I did't include the $1500 in the numbers above, either.

There are more packages here, especially for the Forester and the Rav 4. We have a Forester "Special Edition" which is a cross between the L and the S with the lower cladding of an S. We have 4 different levels for the Rav4: base, B, C, and D packages. I haven't checked the pathfinder, though.

sasquatch_2000 · May 2001

"The Ls actually come with 70 series S-rated tires, but I swapped the rims for alloys with H-rated 60 series tires. Much better, in both ride (less bouncy) and handling (far sportier). The S comes with better tires to begin with."

Gee, and I thought everyone buying "SUV's" changed to TALLER tires. I guess it takes all types. I guess it depends what "is" is, meaning your definition of sporty. Of course, if I was going for less bouncy and better handling, I'd get a Miata!

ateixeira · May 2001

It may be the unusually high demand in some parts of Canada. I wonder if you could buy it in the US and then drive it over and register it?

I would not pay above MSRP for any car. I simply don't allow my emotional side to take over my rational side.

Remeber when Miatas were selling for thousands over retail? I was patient, and waited about a decade. Picked up a used one for $7800 (1993 but only 26k miles and the owner paid $25k when it was new).

At one point there was a really cool "Dynastar" package offered in Canada. It was a Forester L that added heated seats, heated mirrors, heated windshield, side step bars, roof snow board carrier and an actual snow board for just $400!

-juice

guyf1 · May 2001

Our warranty do not have the same terms and conditions as in the US. We have 3 years, 60,000km bumper to bumper and 5 years 100,000km powertrain.

I read my booklet and commercial use do not void our warranty.

I do not have photos to prove it however....

tonychrys · May 2001

Now that was funny Guy. Without photos, it can't be true....

guyf1 · May 2001

Juice,

Not a good idea with the exchange rate at 1.56. A $20,000 US car becomes a $31,200. Cdn car.

In fact, I picked up on the Pathfinder board that many US citizens were doing the opposite. They are buying in Canada and saving $4-5K they claim.

kate5000 · May 2001

I was also lurking at PF board at one point, and they have a whole procedure setup, to fly over to Canada and buy PF there. It did workout very well for most, they claim. Never heard of such experience over at Subaru board.

tonychrys · May 2001

Tis true, when we were considering the PF I was ready to fly into Toronto and drive one back to NY. The exchange rate definitely works in our favor. Plus for some strange reason the Canadian PF still has a power retractable antennae while the US version doesn't anymore. I think the car manufacturers purposely drive us crazy.

armac13 · May 2001

do tend to have less "wiggle room" than US prices, but there are a couple of things you must take into consideration. First, Canadian prices tend to be substantially LOWER than American prices. With the Forester I bought last summer, the MSRP in Canada was about $2700US less in Canada with similar equipment (things like cargo cover, armrest extension, tail pipe cover, etc were standard in Canada, optional in US). The specs are also different in some regards (10 mph bumpers vs 5). Second, except in a few major urban areas, there tends to be less competition among the smaller brands (how many Hyundai dealers close to Medicine Hat?).

Ross

guyf1 · May 2001

Agree with you Ross. My SF would have cost $2-3K US more in the US.

I managed to buy mine for $500. below MSRP and I knew the owner of the dealership.

We have 4 Hyundai dealers in Quebec City and all were sticking to MSRP.

Hey, It's nice this morning, no broken monitor yet!

Guy

tonychrys · May 2001

Yup, makes a world of difference when one can discuss the issues with rational, level-headed folks, doesn't it?

armac13 · May 2001

bajabill · May 2001

I did not buy one, that is my goal, even if I cant get under invoice, I am not paying close to sticker. I heard about the x plan and will resort to that if I have to.

Honestly, I have not decided what to do yet. I currently have a 92 cavalier for daughter in college. Mother will not let her comute back home with it (girls in old cars, small car, no air bags, etc.) I have learned when I do and do not have a say, so a replacement will be obtained. Wife loves her Explorer, initially wants a used (1 or 2 years) Jeep Cherokee for daughter, and the prices on these are soft, very soft right now. I suggested replacing wifes primary ride, explorer, with a vehicle that is better suited for her use -

lighter, but still has cargo room, maintain tall stance (women love this)
FWD instead of AWD (we get snow but there is little need for 4wd vs FWD, I do admit RWD is not acceptable),
and a powerful V6 instead of our V8, which will be 24 instead of 14 mpg.
better ride but lower trailer capacity - I only pulled a light trailer 3 times in 4 years

Then flow the explorer to the daughter who drives about 5000 miles a year so gas price is minimal and the current value of 98 explorer is not much higher than the cherokee we would buy.

where were these alternatives 4 years ago? As a whole the makers are better matching what we want with what we really need.

vin_weasel · May 2001

If you take the numbers I presented and divide them by the exchange rate, 1.56, you'll find that vehicles are actually cheaper in Canada. Well, for Americans anyways.

Juice, it is supply and demand. For example here in Winnipeg, a city of 650k people, there is one Subaru dealership, one Mercedes, one Porsche, one Audi, one BMW, two Hyundai, zero Kia and one Jaguar dealership. There are 7 or 8 Chrysler dealerships, and the same number of GM and Ford dealerships as well. 5 or 6 Toyota dealerships, 2 or 3 Honda, 2 Nissan and 2 or 3 Mazda. If you want a vehicle from one of the lesser represented dealerships, you may be better off negotiating with a dealership in a larger center and then having the vehicle brought back to the smaller areas. The only problem is the next major centre (of even a similar size) is at least an 8 hour car ride and Toronto is almost 30 hours by car. Minneapolis is only 8 hours away, but with the current exchange rate, it's not worth it. Hence the large number of domestic cars, Toyotas and Hondas on the road.

The Subaru dealership can do whatever they want because they are the only show in town. I actually drove by the dealership just last night and the 3 Foresters on the lot were gone. Actually about half of his stock was gone (it's a small dealership with only about 25 vehicles in stock). There were only about 10-15 outbacks and legacys sitting around.

ateixeira · May 2001

Just my opinion, but keep in mind college kids beat up their cars pretty good. Don't get anything too nice - she'll need a new one when she graduates, most likely.

The Cherokee is RWD and is on a platform dating back to 1984, if structural safety is a big concern. There are probably better choices for a student with little gas money. A used 4-banger Camry or Accord, that type of thing. Safe and boring, but not too small.

If the wife likes Fords, the Escape is an obvious candidate. FWD and V6. Seems like the recalls have stopped, so maybe they've figured them out by now.

This is funny, though. Have you guys heard about the new Shaq SST Expedition? True story - 22" wheels and monochrome paint. Really. Under $60 grand, but only 500 so hurry run go now!

-juice

bajabill · May 2001

is the lack of ABS, it is available, but rarely ordered by the dealers, therefore, the used market is light on ABS equiped vehicles.

tonychrys · May 2001

Yea, but it can't make a free throw to save it's life.

currey · May 2001

I go away for a little bit and I get 18 good posts. Thanks guys. Oh, and by the way, forget about going north of the boarder for cars, when I was in Cleveland for three years I would just go north for good camping and cigars.

hung0820 · May 2001

Seem you guy don't get exactly the price on the Santa Fe now!

Some of the Santa Fe owners have posted in our Forum stating that they bought the Santa Fe "now" in the market with the sun/moonroof and also the tape/cd combo stereo system which are even cheaper than my car. Yes! I am talking about top model. They said that why I paid so much but I said it was okay to me because the white color was the hardest to find on top of line model.

While other stating that they do have the sun/moonroof with the side steps as well and still cheaper than my car.

Some of these buyers are from New York and they paid approximately the same tax rate as well.

***They get more now and still cheaper than my car***

Do you guys want to see the real Santa Fe look like in Korea? You will be surprise that this real Santa Fe in Korea is going to be available in the US by next year or so...If you really want to see then I'll posted the pictures but I need to know if anyone is interested.

ateixeira · May 2001

LOL Tony!

Glad to hear Hyundai has come back to earth with their pricing. I think they kind of have to play the "value" angle. A Santa Fe for $22k with V6 and 4WD, well equipped, is a good deal.

At $25k you're stepping on the toes of more established SUVs. I'm not sure they'd want to compete at that price range.

Can't wait to see the new standard options and accessories on the new Korean models that we don't get yet! ;-)

Fuel cells baby! Bring 'em on!

-juice

sasquatch_2000 · May 2001

"The Cherokee is RWD and is on a platform dating back to 1984, if structural safety is a big concern. There are probably better choices for a student with little gas money. A used 4-banger Camry or Accord, that type of thing. Safe and boring, but not too small."

Funny, but whenever we see a used Crown Vic, I always think that a father would want his daughter to have that for college for safety reasons. I would think the full frame is safer than a unitbody camry or accord. Again, that is if SAFETY was concern 1.

sasquatch_2000 · May 2001

I am not interested in Korean version of Santa Fe.

I am interested in saving $4,000-5,000 on any type of car or suv. What are the rules or regulations regarding doing this? Interested in maybe Santa Fe, Wrangler, Trooper, Sportage, XTerra.

Thanks in advance.

tonychrys · May 2001

If you are referring to buying in Canada for US use, there are full details in the Pathfinder forum on how to do this. The original author, Jon Loquist, even emails folks directly and helps them out.

The basics are this:
* Because of the exchange rate, a US dollar can buy more car on certain manufacturers, Nissan is a good example. Not all manufacturers.
* You can usually negotiate over the phone/email all the price/delivery details with a good Canadian dealer.
* Wire your US funds to a Canadian bank for pickup on your deliverly day. The Canadian bank will usually give a better exchange rate than a US bank.
* Fly/drive to Canada. If you are flying in, the dealer will usually arrange to pick you up if needed. You'll go to the bank and pick up a cashier's check in Canadian funds. * Go to dealer, inspect vehicle, etc. Give them check. You'll pay Canadian sales tax, but this is fully refundable.
* Some folks will turn the trip into a vacation and tour around Canada in their new vehicle and stay in b and b's.
* At the border, you will have to pay a duty tax and show some paperwork. Even with the duty tax you will still save money.
* When you get home, you register with your state DMV/pay state tax. You also need to go to your nearest US dealer and register your VIN with the US dealer service in order to honor the warranty. Not all manufacturers allow this so check first.
* Speedo/Odo: Usually a good shop/dealer will swap this out for the US version for about $300(?).

Like I said, this is just skimming the subject. Jon can provide all the details in writing.

ateixeira · May 2001

Any big boat like that would be good, but they'll still have to pay for gas. Trade off, I guess.

sasquatch: what about used? You're probably going to take it to the mud, so does it really have to be shiny and have that new car smell?

-juice

hung0820 · May 2001

Check this out because it is going to be my future plan upgrade. I hope that they can do it.
Santa Fe Fuel Cell System

tonychrys · May 2001

..this will be my next upgrade in my "top of line" vehicle. Turbo-turbo-turbo engine upgrade

I've been emailing the techs all week, seems there are a couple of left over wires in the wiring harness that I can't figure out where they connect to.

stever · May 2001

nimby comes to mind offhand.... Anyone got plans to buy this coming weekend (lame attempt to get on topic....)

Steve
Host
Vans, SUVs and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards

jeffmust2 · May 2001

Tony -

Yes yes I saw it too! T-T-T-U available soon in US SUVs, not just in 3rd world where cooling water come out and has added benefit of killing crop-eating insects inside 30 mile radius...means more food!

Also, add benefit in no need to have headlights, taillights, side lights - or even inside dash and dome lights! Whole car becomes one BIG green light when TTTU button now pushed!!

See U in TTTU Heaven soon I bet!

guyf · May 2001

A fuel cell system is not something you can retrofit into your existing vehicle.

0-60 in 18 seconds, 78 mph top speed, 100 miles range??? Sounds more like a downgrade to me.

Lets wait a few years until Hyundai, Ballard and all the others get it right.

tincup47 · May 2001

I don't know about California or British Columbia, but I haven't seen Hydrogen stations on any corners back here. That has been and will continue to be a major stumbling block to hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, there is no infrastructure in place to support it. GM announced they are starting work on a gasoline fuel cell, and that might have a more realistic shot at being available within this decade.

stever · May 2001

The way I understand it is that a small fuel processor will convert methanol or other liquid fuels to pure hydrogen. That hydrogen will be fed to a fuel cell to generate DC electricity. The stumbling block at the moment is that the "hydrogen stacks" that do the converting are basically handmade and not too reliable. Early adopters should be able to buy a fuel cell for their home within 5 years for somewhere between 5 and 10 grand. Don't know about auto use, and no link for you off-hand either.

Steve
Host
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ateixeira · May 2001

Here goes (Vehicle, sales for April 2001, total 2001 sales):

Ford Escape, 14025, 56010
Subaru Forester, 4402, 17395
Hyundai Santa Fe, 3258, 14298
Mazda Tribute, 3173, 16112

Pretty interesting. Ford has about two billion dealers so that's not a surprise. It is surprising to see Subaru still leading even though Hyundai and Mazda have more dealers.

Especially given the fact that the Forester is in its 5th model year.

-juice

vin_weasel · May 2001

Hung, that's pretty cool but as guyf said the technology is not quite there yet as well as the distribution system. Should be going gangbusters in 5 years.

hung0820 · May 2001

Fuel Cell:
Yes! I am still waiting until the technology are perfect before I upgrade. Expected within 5 years. How is this sound?

Aiteixeira:
Let me ask you this? How many Subaru dealers out there compare to Hyundai? I found at least 2 Subaru here in San Francisco but there was no Hyundai dealers in San Francisco. So, Does that mean Subaru need to compare with Ford too?

Let me tell you this even Mazda have more dealers than Hyundai as well. I found Mazda dealers in San Francisco too. ***I am sure most of you know and understand what I mean***

tincup47 · May 2001

Until they get performance up to where Americans will buy this technology, I doubt you will see many fuel cell vehicles, or investment in the infrastructure to support them. 5 years IMO is not going to get these beyond fringe market vehicles. I doubt that unless their is an actual shortage of gas like in 73 0r 79 that you will see much movement before 2010-2020.

stever · May 2001

I keep getting confused by the infrastructure requirements. If the gizmo on the car converts methanol (or kerosene or...) to hydrogen, wouldn't you be able to get that stuff at existing service stations? I gotta find a link :-)

Steve
Host
Vans, SUVs and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards

tincup47 · May 2001

They still have to perfect that technology, and unless vehicle sales justify it, I doubt that the oil companies are going to jump at adding Methanol or whatever pumps to thousands of service stations. If they don't make this technology practical and affordable it will end up like electric cars, attractive to a fringe market.

stever · May 2001

Thanks. I still want one for my house so I can get off the grid :-).

Steve
Host
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tincup47 · May 2001

And I believe that stationary fuel cells will be available long before practical automotive ones are.

jmlagasca · May 2001

I'm not surprised by the sales figures...

The Ratio between Tributes to Escapes being produced is about (Escapes:Tributes) 3.9:1, so just under 3,200 sold for April is no surprise, given there are a number of unwanted DX's lying on dealer lots, LX's and ES's sell out as soon as they come into the dealer. Anyway, Ford produces about 3000 Tributes per month, sometimes as low as 1900 during months of low production.

Hung, I think those numbers are pretty straightforward as to the numbers of Foresters and Escapes sold. Subaru, Mazda and Hyundai have nowhere near the number of dealers that Ford has. I think the ratio between Ford and Mazda dealers was 4:1. Just b/c there are 2 Subie dealers in SF doesn't mean there are 2 in every city. But I think everyone has access to whatever dealer they want, hey, you got your SaFe out of the city...

hung0820 · May 2001

Here are the links of Partnership in Fuel Cell (Driving for the Future):
Fuel Cell Partnership
Join Partnership

Hyundai Development on Fuel Cell:
Hyundai SUV Development

Hyundai will daily Road Test from where I lived (San Francisco) to where my parents lived (Sacramento).
Road Tested Daily

Location View where my parents lived:
Located EcoWorld

Studied Guide on Fuel Cell:
Fuel Cell Studied Guide

Here is another ShowTime Santa Fe Fuel Cell:
Progress Development

Power up with Hybrid similar to the Toyota Prius Technology:
Hybrid Development for Hyundai

hung0820 · May 2001

Does anyone surprise that the Mazda Tribute is also in the Ford dealers?

Does anyone know exactly the number of Subaru dealers in US compare to Hyundai dealers in US?

**Can you imagine the smaller number of dealers can well match with a large number of dealers in sales report***

tonychrys · May 2001

Is anyone surprised there's milk inside the carton?

Can you petition the lord with prayer?

If a wood chuck could chuck wood, would it?

ateixeira · May 2001

Autoweek reports the number of dealers as part of their Autofile, but it's only in print, not on-line. Anyone else subscribe? Mine are at home.

I'm sure Hyundai has more than Subaru - they are much bigger.

-juice

ateixeira · May 2001

The review of the new XG300 was just posted on Edmunds.

The 3.0l V6 with 192hp wouldn't be a bad choice for the Santa Fe. The 5 speed auto would be even better, especially given you have manual control of the tranny.

-juice

Suzuki Grand Vitara vs Subaru Forester vs Hyundai Santa Fe vs Jeep Liberty vs Ford Escape vs Saturn

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