We need to get back on track here. Squabbles just clear the room and then there's no more topic, so shake hands and please challenge ideas only, not people. We may have to edit or delete some things, we'll see.
Thank you for catching up to your usual high standards.
We need to get back on track here. Squabbles just clear the room and then there's no more topic, so shake hands and please challenge ideas only, not people. We may have to edit or delete some things, we'll see.
Thank you for catching up to your usual high standards.
We need to get back on track here. Squabbles just clear the room and then there's no more topic, so shake hands and please challenge ideas only, not people. We may have to edit or delete some things, we'll see.
Thank you for catching up to your usual high standards.
wow, all the hosts coming out of the woodwork. that's like serious, right?
and Bean, sorry to hear. Hope the treatments go well. Having done it myself a few years back (different variety) I can sympathize.
@stickguy. Thank you sir. Hopefully all has gone well for since then. I've had the surgery and will start radiation treatments in January. I'm feeling really well and I'm thankful for that and all the prayers from my friends.
My wife finally had time to drive the Accord, Camry and Legacy yesterday. The Legacy is in very short supply right now. The dealer we went to only had two and they were both demos. He just delivered one to a guy that ordered it in October.
My wife finally had time to drive the Accord, Camry and Legacy yesterday. The Legacy is in very short supply right now. The dealer we went to only had two and they were both demos. He just delivered one to a guy that ordered it in October.
Anyway, she wants to drive them all one more time before she makes a decision but she ranked them so far Camry SE, Legacy Premium, Accord LX. We drove both the Accord Sport and the LX and we both(I sat in back) found the LX to be much quieter and I assume the main culprit is probably the 18" tires vs. the 16" on the LX. Also it's possible the dual exhaust adds a little more engine growl but it was definitely lounder. She also didn't think the radio sounded as good in the Accord vs. Camry and also didn't ride as smooth. She wants a smooth, quiet ride and ease of use. She found the controls on the Camry to be a little more intuative FOR HER and she actually really liked the way it looked. The Legacy radio system confused her quite a bit although she liked the sound. She doesn't care about the AWD at all. She's been driving in Chicago for 40 years with either RWD or FWD and doesn't have a problem as long as her tires have good tread.
I know the Camry is hated in here and sometimes I think it gets to the extreme and a little childish actually. It's called piling on in football,. It really isn't a bad car at all. I personally would chose the Accord for a number of reasons one of which is that is somewhat familiar as I currently drive an Acura. These cars are all appliances and I don't mean that derogatorily and it's possible the Camry is a little more "appliance" than the others. But, it seems to have a lot of the things that people that just want a quiet, dependable commute to work want. That's pretty much what my wife wants. She doesn't really like to drive all that much.
Funny thing happened when we drove the Legacy. We took it out by ourselves and I asked her why she had the driver's seat so low as it looked like she was sitting in a hole. She said it was alright. After a couple of miles I again said she should adjust her seat. She admitted she didn't know how and I told her to just pull up on the knob that also adjusts for forward and rear travel(power seat). She was shocked when it rose up, up, up. She then asked me if the Mazda6 which she has driven for the past 6 years could do that and I said yes it can! She also didn't realize that the steering wheel on the Mazda could be moved both up/down and telescopically. Like I said, she likes the simple, ease of use she apparently found in the Camry. And no she's not a dummy, she makes 6 figures but just gets in the car and drives and doesn't mess around with it much. You should have seen her face when the salesman tried to explain the CVT to her. Classic!
It just goes to show you that some people just don't care a whole lot about the bells and whistles and latest stuff but just want to get from point A to point B safely, cheaply and dependably.
Have her drive the Accord EX. IMHO there is a significant difference in the ride vs the LX. I didn't want a sunroof, but after driving the LX & EX, the EX was so much better, the sunroof became a non-issue. I also drove the Camry LE and for me the Accord EX was the choice. The 17" wheels on the EX made a pretty big difference in the ride. The upholstery in the LX looked cheap to me - the EX was nicer by far. Plus, the blind spot monitor in the EX is great.
I I know I sound like a Honda fanboy, and I apologize for that, but the EX is really very nice and I'm in love with mine (only had it a week but I think I will remain in love). I'm tall, but the I have plenty of headroom even with the sunroof.
As always, your mileage may vary.
Regards,
Bean
There is no Subaru Legacy supply problems here. There are about 15 of them on our local dealers lot. However, we are not in the snow belt, so AWD is not a big concern here. If we get 20" of snow, everything closes. Enjoy the shoveling and hot cocoa Cuz you are not going anywhere until day 2.
Quote from M6 user. Post has been shortened but not changed in any other way.
Funny thing happened when we drove the Legacy. We took it out by ourselves and I asked her why she had the driver's seat so low as it looked like she was sitting in a hole. She said it was alright. After a couple of miles I again said she should adjust her seat. She admitted she didn't know how and I told her to just pull up on the knob that also adjusts for forward and rear travel(power seat). She was shocked when it rose up, up, up. She then asked me if the Mazda6 which she has driven for the past 6 years could do that and I said yes it can! She also didn't realize that the steering wheel on the Mazda could be moved both up/down and telescopically. Like I said, she likes the simple, ease of use she apparently found in the Camry. And no she's not a dummy, she makes 6 figures but just gets in the car and drives and doesn't mess around with it much. You should have seen her face when the salesman tried to explain the CVT to her. Classic!
It just goes to show you that some people just don't care a whole lot about the bells and whistles and latest stuff but just want to get from point A to point B safely, cheaply and dependably.
Chris response..... I find thats kind of a trend with all women. They only use the buttons they have to. Everything else could "screw something up"if they mess with it so they don't; whether they have 2 doctorats or are a valued dollar store employee.
The new Impala scares me. Side and rear visibility is awful. I drove one 6 months ago.
sorry it took me so long to respond.I sat in the Impala at the car show, and I drove the Mustang and several other fast back sedans since (15 Mazda 6,15 Kia Optima Turbo).
All had back up cameras that I instantly fell in love with and after brief test drive on each model, I trusted the cameras more and more.
i guess I have to admit that I love fastback 4 doors. In particular the Mercedes C550 and the Audi A/S 7. I would buy an Impala in a heartbeat if I was a Chevy fan. I wish I could find a 4 door mid size with the Mustang motor that was not a 2 door.
Cski said; i guess I have to admit that I love fastback 4 doors. In particular the Mercedes C550 and the Audi A/S 7. I would buy an Impala in a heartbeat if I was a Chevy fan. I wish I could find a 4 door mid size with the Mustang motor that was not a 2 door.
Check out the 2013/ 2014.................... R-Spec Genesis Sedan 5.0
The body style is not as sloped as you may like . Its bigger than a midsize car, real sharp looking inside and out. Has 429 H/P. If you put the wing package on the hood ,truck and wheels makes this vehicle look even sharper. I get more complements with this car than any other car I had.
There are published track time reports 0-60 in 4.9 / 5.0 /5.1/ 5.2 / depending on year and reporting mag.
"A..... 2/3 year old Impala has much better visibility. You will get a good deal on one."
Did he ever. He just bought a 2013 Impala LT for under $14k with 2 years left on warranty. If you are into basic transportation that's hard to beat.
A 23 year old Ford F-150 would be cheap too, if you sore willing to deal with oil leaks, no A/C. (compressor never fixed after failure at 10k), and it may need a set of tires and brakes... but hey... it's cheap. Found it on Craig's list for $700. Just passed inspection 6 months ago.
Over the holidays I had a two-day c. 200 mile rental experience with a 2014 Nissan Altima. As some of you know, I am a long-time Honda Accord fan, and so feel free to take what I say with a grain of salt. But anyway, although I liked the Altima overall, like some professional reviewers I thought that the Accord was superior in most areas. Here are my thoughts.
Styling: I liked the exterior looks of the Altima up-close and in person better than I thought I would. Seemed sculptural and solid, and I liked the looks of the standard dual exhaust (compared to the single exhaust for the 4-cylinder Accord). Inside the Accord seemed nicer to me compared to the rather grim black on black on black interior color of the Altima. I think the Accord has an edge overall when it comes to styling, but they are both good-looking cars, and obviously this is a matter of opinion and personal preference.
Features: Here's where the Accord shines. And this is not a matter of opinion but a clear distinction in terms of the Accord offering more and better standard features for the money. I own a 2013 Accord EXL Navi, but my mother owns a base 2013 Accord LX, which I've driven extensively. And so this is comparing the standard Accord with the standard Altima. First, the LX Accord has very nice looking alloy wheels as standard, while the Altima has comparatively cheap-looking plastic "wheel covers." Inside, there are more standard features the Accord has that the Altima lacks, such as: the Accord has a standard rear-view back up camera, standard dual zone climate control, more rear headroom, two lights on each "vanity" mirror rather than one, a standard adjustable steering wheel, etc.
These are things that I really missed. I mean, at this point I count on a new car having a rear back up camera. And during our long drive I kept turning down the heat slightly, while my wife kept turning it up. Almost everything seemed a not quite as nice in the Altima compared to the Accord. In the Accord, for instance, the sun shades have a more expensive feeling and sounding movement, plus lights on each side of the vanity mirrors, as mentioned. The Altima's sunshades go into the ceiling with a cheap and rather loud thump, and they have just one light for the vanity mirrors that seems much less effective--esp. if you were a woman trying to fix her makeup.
Engine, transmission, and handling: Again, I think the Accord seemed superior, although perhaps this is more a matter of opinion. The sound of the Accord's engine seemed more refined to me than the rather harsh and crude growl of the Altima engine during hard acceleration. Both of these cars have CVT transmissions, but the Altima's CVT lugged, whined, and in general was less pleasant than the Accord's. The steering feel, admittedly not great for either car, seems more natural and less twitchy on the Accord than the Altima. In terms of handling, I think the Accord seems more stable and even sporty, and has less wallow around sharp corners. And my wife commented that the Accord is significantly quieter at highway speeds than the Altima.
Seat comfort: At first the Altima seemed as good as the Accord, but over a c. 4 hour drive the rather squishy seats of the Altima seemed to give me a leg cramp. Perhaps this is a matter of opinion, but I think the Accord's firmer seats are are better and more comfortable, esp. for longer drives.
In terms of rear visibility, I think we can objectively say that the Accord is the best of any midsize car, while the Altima, because of its rear window design and lack of a Hofmeister kink is mediocre.
Nissan, I read somewhere, had grand visions a couple of years ago that the new Altima might become the best selling midsize car in America. But honestly to me, as you can tell, it didn't seem up to the Accord in several areas. Although the Camry and most other midsize cars sell huge numbers to rental fleets, the Accord is the #1 midsize car for retail customers. I think Honda won this fair and square by designing and building a better midsize car.
Oh, but here's one last thing where the Altima seemed better: the standard steering wheel has a better feel than the one on the LX Accord. But the fact that it's not adjustable on the Altima seemed a major drawback. As someone 5' 10" I was too tall to see about 1/3 of the speedometer. In other words, I could only see up to 60 mph without bending down while driving. Since we were on an Interstate with a 70 mph speed limit, I had to bend down several times to accurately set the cruise control on the Altima. This is just one of many areas where I felt that the Altima hadn't been fully thought out compared to the Accord.
I test drove both Altima's CVT and the v-6 models. The V-6 would be the model to buy. Altima's CVT is loud , noisy, and annoying. The Accord is a better buy.
Altima had better legroom and I thought the seats were comfortable. I found the seats in my Accord ( Now my daughters Accord ) on long trips to be bothersome especially around the hip area by the console. Altima radio was better, gas mileage about the same, Ride on the Accord firmer. I liked the way the Altima interior lights and dash lit up at night. Accord looks much nicer
We looked extensively at both Accord and Altima before finally choosing the Accord in 2013. It was a hard call. I think it comes down to what features matter to the individual buyer. On the Altima we liked the comfy seats, and the interior layout was much more practical. Radio miles better than Accord's, that still bothers me. I did think it was sharper looking too. Accord pros: Although it is technically larger, it felt and drove like a smaller car. Firmer handling and ride (we drove the EX-L CVT). Backup camera standard whereas you had to buy the nav to get it on the Altima. The CVT is so much quieter on the Accord; we decided that the whine of the Altima's on start-up would become more annoying over time, not less. Mileage pretty much the same. But we have friends with Altimas and they love them.
Over the holidays I made a cross-country trip with my family in our 2013 Sonata GLS. I kept track of fuel and miles. Overall we drove 3100 miles on 86.9 gallons (price range $1.879 to $2.029 a gallon! ), for 35.7 mpg. I was pleasantly surprised by the overall FE, given that only 2400 of the 3100 miles were long distance highway/freeway driving, and the rest was urban/suburban/rural driving. Temps were 30s to 50s on the outbound trip, 30s to low 70s at the destination, and 40s to around 0 on the return leg. 3 people in the car with a full trunk. The 2400 miles of highway/freeway driving were mostly between 65 and 77 mph, with long stretches over 75 mph. I noticed a significant decrease in FE going from 65 mph, when the car did upper 30s mpg, to 75+ mph, when it did well to hit 35 mpg. I also noticed FE on the last day, when temps fell from about 20 to near 0, was a lot worse than the day before, when they were mostly in the 40s. Wind was a factor also. We had a slight headwind on the outbound trip, and a very stiff headwind (near 40 mph) during much of the return trip.
I also found the car was a comfortable highway cruiser, even with 10 hours a day behind the wheel. The driver's seat has firm cushions, but power adjustments for height, recline, and lumbar, and I found it very comfortable. I spent some time in the front passenger seat and found that comfortable also, albeit with fewer adjustments than the driver's seat. The car had a smooth ride on the highway and was pretty quiet, with the engine turning only a bit over 2000 rpms at 75 mph.
The most appreciated features on the car were the USB/iPod connector, for charging iPhones and playing my daughter's playlist, and the heated front seats. And the big trunk was a plus too!
good write up. A lot of the same features I liked on my 2015. Very comfortable seats. Plus on the lmited, a nicely adjustable power passenger seat. I rarely ride there, but did this trip when more daughter drove for a 3 hour stint. Too many cars IMO have a passenger seat that is way too low and sloped down.
the nice low revs at cruising speed is also a bonus. I really found the BLIS to be a nice feature to have.
Over the holidays I had a two-day c. 200 mile rental experience with a 2014 Nissan Altima. As some of you know, I am a long-time Honda Accord fan, and so feel free to take what I say with a grain of salt. But anyway, although I liked the Altima overall, like some professional reviewers I thought that the Accord was superior in most areas. Here are my thoughts.
Styling: I liked the exterior looks of the Altima up-close and in person better than I thought I would. Seemed sculptural and solid, and I liked the looks of the standard dual exhaust (compared to the single exhaust for the 4-cylinder Accord). Inside the Accord seemed nicer to me compared to the rather grim black on black on black interior color of the Altima. I think the Accord has an edge overall when it comes to styling, but they are both good-looking cars, and obviously this is a matter of opinion and personal preference.
Features: Here's where the Accord shines. And this is not a matter of opinion but a clear distinction in terms of the Accord offering more and better standard features for the money. I own a 2013 Accord EXL Navi, but my mother owns a base 2013 Accord LX, which I've driven extensively. And so this is comparing the standard Accord with the standard Altima. First, the LX Accord has very nice looking alloy wheels as standard, while the Altima has comparatively cheap-looking plastic "wheel covers." Inside, there are more standard features the Accord has that the Altima lacks, such as: the Accord has a standard rear-view back up camera, standard dual zone climate control, more rear headroom, two lights on each "vanity" mirror rather than one, a standard adjustable steering wheel, etc.
These are things that I really missed. I mean, at this point I count on a new car having a rear back up camera. And during our long drive I kept turning down the heat slightly, while my wife kept turning it up. Almost everything seemed a not quite as nice in the Altima compared to the Accord. In the Accord, for instance, the sun shades have a more expensive feeling and sounding movement, plus lights on each side of the vanity mirrors, as mentioned. The Altima's sunshades go into the ceiling with a cheap and rather loud thump, and they have just one light for the vanity mirrors that seems much less effective--esp. if you were a woman trying to fix her makeup.
Engine, transmission, and handling: Again, I think the Accord seemed superior, although perhaps this is more a matter of opinion. The sound of the Accord's engine seemed more refined to me than the rather harsh and crude growl of the Altima engine during hard acceleration. Both of these cars have CVT transmissions, but the Altima's CVT lugged, whined, and in general was less pleasant than the Accord's. The steering feel, admittedly not great for either car, seems more natural and less twitchy on the Accord than the Altima. In terms of handling, I think the Accord seems more stable and even sporty, and has less wallow around sharp corners. And my wife commented that the Accord is significantly quieter at highway speeds than the Altima.
Seat comfort: At first the Altima seemed as good as the Accord, but over a c. 4 hour drive the rather squishy seats of the Altima seemed to give me a leg cramp. Perhaps this is a matter of opinion, but I think the Accord's firmer seats are are better and more comfortable, esp. for longer drives.
In terms of rear visibility, I think we can objectively say that the Accord is the best of any midsize car, while the Altima, because of its rear window design and lack of a Hofmeister kink is mediocre.
Nissan, I read somewhere, had grand visions a couple of years ago that the new Altima might become the best selling midsize car in America. But honestly to me, as you can tell, it didn't seem up to the Accord in several areas. Although the Camry and most other midsize cars sell huge numbers to rental fleets, the Accord is the #1 midsize car for retail customers. I think Honda won this fair and square by designing and building a better midsize car.
Oh, but here's one last thing where the Altima seemed better: the standard steering wheel has a better feel than the one on the LX Accord. But the fact that it's not adjustable on the Altima seemed a major drawback. As someone 5' 10" I was too tall to see about 1/3 of the speedometer. In other words, I could only see up to 60 mph without bending down while driving. Since we were on an Interstate with a 70 mph speed limit, I had to bend down several times to accurately set the cruise control on the Altima. This is just one of many areas where I felt that the Altima hadn't been fully thought out compared to the Accord.
While I see at least 25 current model Altima's daily, and at least that many Accords too...the Altima somehow looks "chintzy". It's got one too many pieces of chrome-stick on the exterior, I have heard the unpleasant full throttle drone of the engine and exhaust right next to my car at various times and speeds. It is certainly a handsome car...but I would never, ever, consider buying one. From the get-go; when it first came out, I was like "meh".
Now the Accord on the other hand was done right. It has a quality I cannot put into words that make me say "now that is a nice car". If it and the new Mazda 6 were available when I was car shopping in late December 2011 I think the Accord Sport and the Mazda 6 Touring would be battling it out for my parking Spot.
Two thoughts: - I can't believe that many Altimas were sold; out of the 5 people I know with an Altima, 3 are not at all satisfied. - I also can't believe that few Mazda 6's were sold; I have read a lot of very positive reviews. But then again, the market speaks.
I'm not surprised how many Altima's were sold last year. What is a surprise is the mazda6 's YTD sales given there reviews are excellent. How about Chrysler 200 selling over 100k units.( how many of the 117k units were sold to fleet? ) What about Camry's 2014, fleet sales numbers?
Another year the Accord takes 2nd to the high and mighty Camry. Is that 11 yrs. in a row? . lol
Two thoughts: - I can't believe that many Altimas were sold; out of the 5 people I know with an Altima, 3 are not at all satisfied. - I also can't believe that few Mazda 6's were sold; I have read a lot of very positive reviews. But then again, the market speaks.
Bean
I don't understand the Altima's popularity either. Pushes none of my buttons.
The Mazda 6 is a darling for auto journos, but it presents itself in the market a sa more expensive car than the usual suspects and leaves some with the impression it needs more power. I haven't driven one so I cannot say. Mazda's dealer network is also relatively small by comparison.
Mazda6 is a sporty car lost in the family sedan segment. I said this before and I'll say it again. Mazda should take this model put some real zoom zoom under the hood and go after the younger buyers. Offer two models with upgraded engines. The majority of family sedan buyers could care less about buying a mazda6. I think 53k units sold ytd speaks for itself.
How many people, if told 10 years ago, "Ten years from now, Hyundai/Kia will sell nearly as many mid-sized cars in the USA as Honda sells Accords", would have laughed their heads off and referred the person to a psychiatrist?
The other thing these sales numbers remind us of is that "popularity, a winning start, is not the last test of good art."
Two thoughts: - I can't believe that many Altimas were sold; out of the 5 people I know with an Altima, 3 are not at all satisfied. - I also can't believe that few Mazda 6's were sold; I have read a lot of very positive reviews. But then again, the market speaks.
Bean
I think the secret to the Altima's success is this: I saw one advertised for c. $19k not that long ago. Most of the other midsize cars start at more like 21k or more.
Two thoughts: - I can't believe that many Altimas were sold; out of the 5 people I know with an Altima, 3 are not at all satisfied. - I also can't believe that few Mazda 6's were sold; I have read a lot of very positive reviews. But then again, the market speaks.
Bean
I think the secret to the Altima's success is this: I saw one advertised for c. $19k not that long ago. Most of the other midsize cars start at more like 21k or more.
Good point. There's a lot of buyers out there who do little research and shop solely on looks, a short test drive, and price. May be lots of Altima buyers there.
Two thoughts: - I can't believe that many Altimas were sold; out of the 5 people I know with an Altima, 3 are not at all satisfied. - I also can't believe that few Mazda 6's were sold; I have read a lot of very positive reviews. But then again, the market speaks.
Bean
I've rented both the new Altima and new Sonata, and for me, it's Altima hands down--if I evaluate ALL the features and not cherry-pick one advantage point over another I mean. I like the Sonata engine better for instance.
But there is something, IMO, rather clever about the Altima--it's very...I don't know...user friendly? or maybe "completely inoffensive" is the word. (is that another word for "dull"? LOL).
How many people, if told 10 years ago, "Ten years from now, Hyundai/Kia will sell nearly as many mid-sized cars in the USA as Honda sells Accords", would have laughed their heads off and referred the person to a psychiatrist?
The other thing these sales numbers remind us of is that "popularity, a winning start, is not the last test of good art."
My thought as well. Hyundai/Kia takes third place if you combine the fraternal twins. (I suppose they're a little less obvious than Chevy/GMC, but we all know it's the same car underneath.)
Re: Altima, I'm not surprised it sells well. Anecdotally, two friends have liked theirs very much. And the top trim SL I sat in at the auto show had very nice interior materials. And it's got a lot of leg room. It's made the Maxima entirely pointless. The base model has unfortunate "mouse fur" fabric, like the base Accord. But on the whole: good price, good fuel economy, lots of space, good reputation for reliability, built in the USA. If my left leg fell off and I was forced to drive an automatic, it'd be high on my list.
Well...... we bought our first ever Nissan. We went with the Altima 3.5SL. We still have our 2010 venza, but will likely sell it soon. If we sell it it will be the first time since 1990 that we didn't have a Toyota or Honda product in our garage. We went with Nissan because we were tired of cheap interiors on Toyotas. I also thought that although they have a great drivetrain they continue to remain about 5 years behind in technology. When we looked at the 2015 camry we wrote it off immediately. We'd rented fusions on a number of occasions and didn't care much for them. I was not remotely interested in a GM or Fiat (formerly Chrysler) for personal reasons. Having had a 2000 accord with the original plus three replacement transmissions - and lots of wind noise - we wrote off Honda. We haven't looked back yet.
I got to drive a couple of mid-sizers I haven't driven before this week, due to a service loaner and a rental. First, I got a brand-new (200 miles) 200 Limited that seemed to have all the bells and whistles--nav, leather, panoramic moonroof etc. It drove fine; steering felt a bit disconnected but was OK for EPS. Ride was good, but no better than on my 2013 Sonata GLS (designed over five years ago). The push-button start and keyless entry was kinda nice, but a couple of things annoyed me. First, it took me 15 minutes to find the bun warmer controls. Turned out they were in the touchscreen, under "Controls". In fact, a lot of functions were controlled by the touchscreen--which was tricky to use wearing warm gloves (it was below zero that day). Second, I didn't like the rotary shifter. I prefer the more physical action of a shift lever. Also, the car didn't have a manual shift option--which would have been handy since the 9-speed tranny did a lot of hunting for the right gear. Also, it felt as if I were sitting in a bathtub--and the seat was raised! The feeling was amplified when I picked up the 2008 Mazda6 that I had brought in for warranty work, and I noticed how much more airy the cabin felt. I didn't sit in the back of the 200 but it looked claustrophobic back there. So, not a car I'd buy.
Then I got to drive the current-gen Optima LX courtesy of Hertz this week. It wasn't brand-new, in fact had 45k miles on it. I took it on a 170-mile round trip, mostly highway driving at around 65 mph. It was a very cold day--below zero when I picked up the car, and a high of 10. It drove much like my wife's 2013 Sonata, maybe a little firmer ride but hard to tell since it was so cold. It was a basic car with manual driver's seat, but I was able to adjust it for comfort although I felt as if I were sitting pretty low. I liked the controls and displays, simple to navigate, although some of the switchgear (e.g. plastic surrounds on steering wheel controls, radio dials) were already loosening up. Worse, there was already a hole worn into the left side of the driver's seat, near the seatback. The material did feel thin, compared to my wife's Sonata. But rental cars get hard use and 45k is a lot of miles for a rental. On the plus side, the car felt solid after all those miles, with only one slight rattle that seemed to be coming from the driver's side A pillar and could have been due to the cold. I got about 31 mpg on the trip, not bad at all considering the cold weather and the stiff headwind/crosswind I had for much of the trip. I much preferred the Optima to the newer 200, although I did like those bun warmers on the 200 (my wife's Sonata has those too). I'm not a big fan of tech gizmos on cars, and touch screens. But then, my first car ('66 Coronet) lacked carpeting, power steering (or power anything else except brakes), and a radio, and I managed somehow.
Altima V6... what was your take on Avalon wayne21?
Actually, I test drove a number of vehicles. The other two cars I really considered were the avalon and the genesis sedan (I wrote off the maxima due to its poor crash ratings for the front seat passenger). I thought the avalon had a pretty choppy ride and the genesis was Hyundai's version of the crown vic or LTD. Just one opinion.
In this month's edition of CR ...... Midsize " new car value ratings " puts the Altima V-6 last in the value ratings in its class. The 4cyl. faired better.
Number 1 is..............................Toyota Camry Hybrid xle
In this month's edition of CR ...... Midsize " new car value ratings " puts the Altima V-6 last in the value ratings in its class. The 4cyl. faired better.
I don't put much stock in CR input unless it is from surveys from owners. My most recent purchase based on CR was the "top rated elliptical under $2,000". It isn't anything to write home about. The first one (set up in my home by the distributor) clunked horribly within 2 uses and was difficult to use. The replacement clunks and isn't any more fun to use. My old one ($700) was used daily for 1 hour over a 7 year period before a bearing started going out of it. It was FAR better than the "top rated CR" elliptical. As to the "value" I am not really worried about it. I got tired of cheap Toyota interiors and noisy Hondas with transmission problems. I have no idea what the future holds for our 6 cyl Altima, but I plan to keep it for a long time. I usually keep a car for 5 to 10 years. I haven't sold or traded a car in over 20 years - 1 car was given to my son and the others were donated.
Now you know why the VP of Chrysler Quality Control has just been allowed to (and I quote directly from the article) "seek new opportunities".
Apparently Chrysler's 7-speed automatic has demons installed.
What is amazing to me is that Chrysler coming in last on quality is news at all. That's like reporting the world is round.
What is also amazing to me is that Chrysler has a "Quality Control" person on the payroll. Although I'd bet that's just a title, and what would more accurately describe the position is "planned obsolescence manager."
'21 BMW X3 M40i, '15 Audi S4, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
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MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
Some people don't understand that warranties are simply insurance policies. Self insuring is always cheaper over the long run if you can afford it.
Tell that to the guy whose house burns down. Why, if he'd saved that $1,500 a year, he could have saved enough to rebuild out of his own pocket in just a couple hundred years!
I kid. It's true, insurance is intended for uncertain catastrophes. Maintenance and care (home, auto, or health) are not "insurance". You don't expect your car insurance to pay for new tires, nor your homeowners insurance to pay for mowing the grass, and you shouldn't expect your health insurance to pay for... well, I'll step back from that ledge before I alienate the entire forum.
Does a buying a $750 warranty for maybe $2-3K worth of repairs, maybe $0 worth of repairs, make sense?... Not really. Which is why I declined it three times before the marginal monthly payment increase was so small I briefly lost touch with my left brain and went for it. And ya know, I'm still glad it's there. Though I have the savings on hand to handle a transmission or electrical problem, when you begin to think in terms of $15 a month, your inner Dave Ramsey gets the boot. They are very good at selling the stupid things. And don't we all upsell something in our jobs? If I couldn't talk people into bells and whistles now and then, my kids would be hungry.
Good luck trying to get an insurance company to pay for a big claim. You may need that $1,500 a year you gave to them for years to pay for the lawyer. Insurance companies are the scum of the Earth. That's just this one man's opinion based on 36 years of life on this Earth.
'21 BMW X3 M40i, '15 Audi S4, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I've had two totaled vehicles (kids not mine) with Geico. They totaled a 6 month old 2012 Focus after my daughter failed to stop in time and rear ended another car. The engine looked ok but they totaled it anyway and gave me full replacement value. My son had a 7 yr old Focus we paid $16K for. He spun out on ice and they wrote him a check for $8K. Our roof had wind and hail damage. State farm wrote a check for that which allowed us to get better shingles with nothing out of pocket no questions asked.
Allstate paid out plenty of money for my 3 kids over the years till they drop me. Both my boys totaled or wrecked there cars once. My daughter nickeled and dimmed State farm with her little crashes her first 3 yrs of driving. Funny thing Its never there fault.
My wife and I have Geico Ins. Nothing but high praise for them. Geico has excellent rates for good drivers.
Allstate paid out plenty of money for my 3 kids over the years till they drop me. Both my boys totaled or wrecked there cars once. My daughter nickeled and dimmed State farm with her little crashes her first 3 yrs of driving. Funny thing Its never there fault.
My wife and I have Geico Ins. Nothing but high praise for them. Geico has excellent rates for good drivers.
Geico is professional, and overall probably a "good" insurance company. That doesn't stop them from trying to be cheap and "overlook" slight defects on a brand new vehicle that sustained 22K in damage. They originally estimated $15K, so that shows incompetence in the first estimate (or trying to get away with murder).
A good example is I had a brand new S4, and one of the tires came in out of balance. It's Quattro AWD. The manual recommends changing all 4 tires at the same time, but under no circumstance a minimum of 2 tires on the same axle. Geico wanted to replace the one tire. I had to do a lot of hooting and hollering, arguing, phone calls, nasty letter, and they finally only compromised at doing 2 tires, and making me pay 20% for both of them for "betterment" since 20% of the tread was used on the old tires.
Geico's not that good. They are cheap, and you get good cheap insurance for that cheapness. But know there's a reason they are cheap. As long as they let you know ahead of time they will nickel and dime you, that's OK, but they don't advertise the nickel and dime part of their policy.
Also, for some reason they fight people on Diminished value, thought my policy specifically excludes it, they told me they fight 3rd parties that claim it against them as well. There is no reason to fight DV, insurance companies need to get into the real world.
'21 BMW X3 M40i, '15 Audi S4, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I know Ins companies are trying to replace original parts and equipment using after market parts these days. Geico/ liberty mutual to name a few.
Overall with my wife's accident 3 years ago causing 15k in damage not @akirby accident I was more than happy how Geico handled my accident and fixed vehicle. In todays times Ins. companies try to put the blame on both parties if they could. Ins. companies will try to weasel out of paying what is owed to you . You have to fight them . That's why its important to have a good Autobody shop in the event of a accident .
If I get into a Accident My car is at that Autobody shop days before the Ins. adjuster gets there. Read between the lines here. Ins. is not getting over on me.
If someone hits me in my vehicle who is fully insured and I do not have collision the ins company will try to access blame on me to. People who got into a few accidents may have experience this kind of blame game today.
In NYC... Taxi companies INS. are notorious for trying to pin blame on the other driver as well in accidents with there vehicles.
What is amazing to me is that Chrysler coming in last on quality is news at all. That's like reporting the world is round.
What is also amazing to me is that Chrysler has a "Quality Control" person on the payroll. Although I'd bet that's just a title, and what would more accurately describe the position is "planned obsolescence manager."
My response:
Well, Homer Simpson is a "Safety Manager" I actually owned a Fiat. 79 Strata. I was 16, my neighbor had a running car, and I had $300 bucks. Nothing worked on it except the engine, which never failed me... so that was good. I will give you an example of quality back then. I ordered new widow cranks from Italy since their dealer network collapsed. It took 2 months. I could then remove the lock-tite wrench that stood in and excitedly installed the new cranks. 1st crank and it Broke in half. So, I tried the other one..... same result after 4 very careful cranks. I ended up drilling holes in the floor so the water would drain, and left the damn things down until I scrapped it. The good news is that the junkyard gave me $500. So, pocketed $200 after a 16 year old punished it for 25k.
So, Fiat-Chrysler have their work cut out for them if they are ever going to be seen as quality, long lasting products.
So, Fiat-Chrysler have their work cut out for them if they are ever going to be seen as quality, long lasting products.
I agree, my front windshield spontaneously cracked from top to bottom on the '95 Neon while it was parked when nothing hit it, and something similar happened to Edmunds' long term DART tester only a couple years back. Claims of change, but most remains the same.
'21 BMW X3 M40i, '15 Audi S4, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Fortunately for me, the blame game was indisputable. The guy was reckless and negligent to cause an accident with a great driver like me. However, when it comes to diminished value, the insurance companies act like imbeciles, but they are very smart and have hundreds of template letters ready to go for every situation.
'21 BMW X3 M40i, '15 Audi S4, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Comments
With bourbon or rum?
and Bean, sorry to hear. Hope the treatments go well. Having done it myself a few years back (different variety) I can sympathize.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Bean
Funny thing happened when we drove the Legacy. We took it out by ourselves and I asked her why she had the driver's seat so low as it looked like she was sitting in a hole. She said it was alright. After a couple of miles I again said she should adjust her seat. She admitted she didn't know how and I told her to just pull up on the knob that also adjusts for forward and rear travel(power seat). She was shocked when it rose up, up, up. She then asked me if the Mazda6 which she has driven for the past 6 years could do that and I said yes it can! She also didn't realize that the steering wheel on the Mazda could be moved both up/down and telescopically. Like I said, she likes the simple, ease of use she apparently found in the Camry. And no she's not a dummy, she makes 6 figures but just gets in the car and drives and doesn't mess around with it much. You should have seen her face when the salesman tried to explain the CVT to her. Classic!
It just goes to show you that some people just don't care a whole lot about the bells and whistles and latest stuff but just want to get from point A to point B safely, cheaply and dependably.
Chris response.....
I find thats kind of a trend with all women. They only use the buttons they have to. Everything else could "screw something up"if they mess with it so they don't; whether they have 2 doctorats or are a valued dollar store employee.
All had back up cameras that I instantly fell in love with and after brief test drive on each model, I trusted the cameras more and more.
i guess I have to admit that I love fastback 4 doors. In particular the Mercedes C550 and the Audi A/S 7. I would buy an Impala in a heartbeat if I was a Chevy fan. I wish I could find a 4 door mid size with the Mustang motor that was not a 2 door.
i guess I have to admit that I love fastback 4 doors. In particular the Mercedes C550 and the Audi A/S 7. I would buy an Impala in a heartbeat if I was a Chevy fan. I wish I could find a 4 door mid size with the Mustang motor that was not a 2 door.
Check out the 2013/ 2014.................... R-Spec Genesis Sedan 5.0
The body style is not as sloped as you may like . Its bigger than a midsize car, real sharp looking inside and out. Has 429 H/P. If you put the wing package on the hood ,truck and wheels makes this vehicle look even sharper. I get more complements with this car than any other car I had.
There are published track time reports 0-60 in 4.9 / 5.0 /5.1/ 5.2 / depending on year and reporting mag.
http://www.edmunds.com/hyundai/genesis/2014/?sub=&ps=
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
Brian
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
'24 Chevy Blazer EV 2LT
Over the holidays I had a two-day c. 200 mile rental experience with a 2014 Nissan Altima. As some of you know, I am a long-time Honda Accord fan, and so feel free to take what I say with a grain of salt. But anyway, although I liked the Altima overall, like some professional reviewers I thought that the Accord was superior in most areas. Here are my thoughts.
Styling: I liked the exterior looks of the Altima up-close and in person better than I thought I would. Seemed sculptural and solid, and I liked the looks of the standard dual exhaust (compared to the single exhaust for the 4-cylinder Accord). Inside the Accord seemed nicer to me compared to the rather grim black on black on black interior color of the Altima. I think the Accord has an edge overall when it comes to styling, but they are both good-looking cars, and obviously this is a matter of opinion and personal preference.
Features: Here's where the Accord shines. And this is not a matter of opinion but a clear distinction in terms of the Accord offering more and better standard features for the money. I own a 2013 Accord EXL Navi, but my mother owns a base 2013 Accord LX, which I've driven extensively. And so this is comparing the standard Accord with the standard Altima. First, the LX Accord has very nice looking alloy wheels as standard, while the Altima has comparatively cheap-looking plastic "wheel covers." Inside, there are more standard features the Accord has that the Altima lacks, such as: the Accord has a standard rear-view back up camera, standard dual zone climate control, more rear headroom, two lights on each "vanity" mirror rather than one, a standard adjustable steering wheel, etc.
These are things that I really missed. I mean, at this point I count on a new car having a rear back up camera. And during our long drive I kept turning down the heat slightly, while my wife kept turning it up. Almost everything seemed a not quite as nice in the Altima compared to the Accord. In the Accord, for instance, the sun shades have a more expensive feeling and sounding movement, plus lights on each side of the vanity mirrors, as mentioned. The Altima's sunshades go into the ceiling with a cheap and rather loud thump, and they have just one light for the vanity mirrors that seems much less effective--esp. if you were a woman trying to fix her makeup.
Engine, transmission, and handling: Again, I think the Accord seemed superior, although perhaps this is more a matter of opinion. The sound of the Accord's engine seemed more refined to me than the rather harsh and crude growl of the Altima engine during hard acceleration. Both of these cars have CVT transmissions, but the Altima's CVT lugged, whined, and in general was less pleasant than the Accord's. The steering feel, admittedly not great for either car, seems more natural and less twitchy on the Accord than the Altima. In terms of handling, I think the Accord seems more stable and even sporty, and has less wallow around sharp corners. And my wife commented that the Accord is significantly quieter at highway speeds than the Altima.
Seat comfort: At first the Altima seemed as good as the Accord, but over a c. 4 hour drive the rather squishy seats of the Altima seemed to give me a leg cramp. Perhaps this is a matter of opinion, but I think the Accord's firmer seats are are better and more comfortable, esp. for longer drives.
In terms of rear visibility, I think we can objectively say that the Accord is the best of any midsize car, while the Altima, because of its rear window design and lack of a Hofmeister kink is mediocre.
Nissan, I read somewhere, had grand visions a couple of years ago that the new Altima might become the best selling midsize car in America. But honestly to me, as you can tell, it didn't seem up to the Accord in several areas. Although the Camry and most other midsize cars sell huge numbers to rental fleets, the Accord is the #1 midsize car for retail customers. I think Honda won this fair and square by designing and building a better midsize car.
Oh, but here's one last thing where the Altima seemed better: the standard steering wheel has a better feel than the one on the LX Accord. But the fact that it's not adjustable on the Altima seemed a major drawback. As someone 5' 10" I was too tall to see about 1/3 of the speedometer. In other words, I could only see up to 60 mph without bending down while driving. Since we were on an Interstate with a 70 mph speed limit, I had to bend down several times to accurately set the cruise control on the Altima. This is just one of many areas where I felt that the Altima hadn't been fully thought out compared to the Accord.
Nice review.
I'm going to add to your review.
I test drove both Altima's CVT and the v-6 models. The V-6 would be the model to buy. Altima's CVT is loud , noisy, and annoying. The Accord is a better buy.
Altima had better legroom and I thought the seats were comfortable. I found the seats in my Accord ( Now my daughters Accord ) on long trips to be bothersome especially around the hip area by the console. Altima radio was better, gas mileage about the same, Ride on the Accord firmer. I liked the way the Altima interior lights and dash lit up at night. Accord looks much nicer
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
'24 Chevy Blazer EV 2LT
I also found the car was a comfortable highway cruiser, even with 10 hours a day behind the wheel. The driver's seat has firm cushions, but power adjustments for height, recline, and lumbar, and I found it very comfortable. I spent some time in the front passenger seat and found that comfortable also, albeit with fewer adjustments than the driver's seat. The car had a smooth ride on the highway and was pretty quiet, with the engine turning only a bit over 2000 rpms at 75 mph.
The most appreciated features on the car were the USB/iPod connector, for charging iPhones and playing my daughter's playlist, and the heated front seats. And the big trunk was a plus too!
the nice low revs at cruising speed is also a bonus. I really found the BLIS to be a nice feature to have.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
While I see at least 25 current model Altima's daily, and at least that many Accords too...the Altima somehow looks "chintzy". It's got one too many pieces of chrome-stick on the exterior, I have heard the unpleasant full throttle drone of the engine and exhaust right next to my car at various times and speeds. It is certainly a handsome car...but I would never, ever, consider buying one. From the get-go; when it first came out, I was like "meh".
Now the Accord on the other hand was done right. It has a quality I cannot put into words that make me say "now that is a nice car". If it and the new Mazda 6 were available when I was car shopping in late December 2011 I think the Accord Sport and the Mazda 6 Touring would be battling it out for my parking Spot.
Camry 428,606
Accord 388,374
Altima 335,644
Fusion 306,860
Sonata 216,936
Malibu 188,519
Optima 159,020
200 117,363
Passat 96,949
Mazda6 53,224
Legacy 42,291
- I can't believe that many Altimas were sold; out of the 5 people I know with an Altima, 3 are not at all satisfied.
- I also can't believe that few Mazda 6's were sold; I have read a lot of very positive reviews.
But then again, the market speaks.
Bean
Another year the Accord takes 2nd to the high and mighty Camry. Is that 11 yrs. in a row? . lol
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
The Mazda 6 is a darling for auto journos, but it presents itself in the market a sa more expensive car than the usual suspects and leaves some with the impression it needs more power. I haven't driven one so I cannot say. Mazda's dealer network is also relatively small by comparison.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
The other thing these sales numbers remind us of is that "popularity, a winning start, is not the last test of good art."
But there is something, IMO, rather clever about the Altima--it's very...I don't know...user friendly? or maybe "completely inoffensive" is the word. (is that another word for "dull"? LOL).
Re: Altima, I'm not surprised it sells well. Anecdotally, two friends have liked theirs very much. And the top trim SL I sat in at the auto show had very nice interior materials. And it's got a lot of leg room. It's made the Maxima entirely pointless. The base model has unfortunate "mouse fur" fabric, like the base Accord. But on the whole: good price, good fuel economy, lots of space, good reputation for reliability, built in the USA. If my left leg fell off and I was forced to drive an automatic, it'd be high on my list.
Then I got to drive the current-gen Optima LX courtesy of Hertz this week. It wasn't brand-new, in fact had 45k miles on it. I took it on a 170-mile round trip, mostly highway driving at around 65 mph. It was a very cold day--below zero when I picked up the car, and a high of 10. It drove much like my wife's 2013 Sonata, maybe a little firmer ride but hard to tell since it was so cold. It was a basic car with manual driver's seat, but I was able to adjust it for comfort although I felt as if I were sitting pretty low. I liked the controls and displays, simple to navigate, although some of the switchgear (e.g. plastic surrounds on steering wheel controls, radio dials) were already loosening up. Worse, there was already a hole worn into the left side of the driver's seat, near the seatback. The material did feel thin, compared to my wife's Sonata. But rental cars get hard use and 45k is a lot of miles for a rental. On the plus side, the car felt solid after all those miles, with only one slight rattle that seemed to be coming from the driver's side A pillar and could have been due to the cold. I got about 31 mpg on the trip, not bad at all considering the cold weather and the stiff headwind/crosswind I had for much of the trip. I much preferred the Optima to the newer 200, although I did like those bun warmers on the 200 (my wife's Sonata has those too). I'm not a big fan of tech gizmos on cars, and touch screens. But then, my first car ('66 Coronet) lacked carpeting, power steering (or power anything else except brakes), and a radio, and I managed somehow.
Number 1 is..............................Toyota Camry Hybrid xle
2.................................................Accord Lx
3.................................................Camry LE 4cyl
4.................................................Subaru legacy2.5
5.................................................Mazda6 sport
6.................................................Accord Hybrid
7.................................................Camry xle v-6
8.................................................VW Passat SE 1.8t
9.................................................Fusion SE Hybrid
10...............................................Malibu 2ltz (2.0t)
11................................................Accord EXL v-6
12................................................Passat TDI SE
13................................................Fusion Se 1.5t
14.................................................Optima LX 2.4
15..................................................Altima 2.5 s
16...................................................Malibu 2ltz 2.0t
17..................................................Optima Sx 2.0t
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
'24 Chevy Blazer EV 2LT
What is also amazing to me is that Chrysler has a "Quality Control" person on the payroll. Although I'd bet that's just a title, and what would more accurately describe the position is "planned obsolescence manager."
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2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
Good luck trying to get an insurance company to pay for a big claim. You may need that $1,500 a year you gave to them for years to pay for the lawyer. Insurance companies are the scum of the Earth. That's just this one man's opinion based on 36 years of life on this Earth.
Maybe you have the wrong insurance companies.
My wife and I have Geico Ins. Nothing but high praise for them. Geico has excellent rates for good drivers.
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
A good example is I had a brand new S4, and one of the tires came in out of balance. It's Quattro AWD. The manual recommends changing all 4 tires at the same time, but under no circumstance a minimum of 2 tires on the same axle. Geico wanted to replace the one tire. I had to do a lot of hooting and hollering, arguing, phone calls, nasty letter, and they finally only compromised at doing 2 tires, and making me pay 20% for both of them for "betterment" since 20% of the tread was used on the old tires.
Geico's not that good. They are cheap, and you get good cheap insurance for that cheapness. But know there's a reason they are cheap. As long as they let you know ahead of time they will nickel and dime you, that's OK, but they don't advertise the nickel and dime part of their policy.
Also, for some reason they fight people on Diminished value, thought my policy specifically excludes it, they told me they fight 3rd parties that claim it against them as well. There is no reason to fight DV, insurance companies need to get into the real world.
Overall with my wife's accident 3 years ago causing 15k in damage not @akirby accident I was more than happy how Geico handled my accident and fixed vehicle. In todays times Ins. companies try to put the blame on both parties if they could. Ins. companies will try to weasel out of paying what is owed to you . You have to fight them . That's why its important to have a good Autobody shop in the event of a accident .
If I get into a Accident My car is at that Autobody shop days before the Ins. adjuster gets there. Read between the lines here. Ins. is not getting over on me.
If someone hits me in my vehicle who is fully insured and I do not have collision the ins company will try to access blame on me to. People who got into a few accidents may have experience this kind of blame game today.
In NYC... Taxi companies INS. are notorious for trying to pin blame on the other driver as well in accidents with there vehicles.
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
What is amazing to me is that Chrysler coming in last on quality is news at all. That's like reporting the world is round.
What is also amazing to me is that Chrysler has a "Quality Control" person on the payroll. Although I'd bet that's just a title, and what would more accurately describe the position is "planned obsolescence manager."
My response:
Well, Homer Simpson is a "Safety Manager" I actually owned a Fiat. 79 Strata. I was 16, my neighbor had a running car, and I had $300 bucks. Nothing worked on it except the engine, which never failed me... so that was good.
I will give you an example of quality back then. I ordered new widow cranks from Italy since their dealer network collapsed. It took 2 months. I could then remove the lock-tite wrench that stood in and excitedly installed the new cranks. 1st crank and it Broke in half. So, I tried the other one..... same result after 4 very careful cranks. I ended up drilling holes in the floor so the water would drain, and left the damn things down until I scrapped it. The good news is that the junkyard gave me $500. So, pocketed $200 after a 16 year old punished it for 25k.
So, Fiat-Chrysler have their work cut out for them if they are ever going to be seen as quality, long lasting products.