VW TDI Settlement - buying a TDI now

28firefighter · December 2016

Michaell said:

I know I still have two weeks until the money is in the bank, but if I am ever in Denver - I'm buying @breld several cold ones. This is unreal.
Ill buy my own, but would love to join you.

Of course - I'll grab yours too! Now to get that trip planned...

andres3 · December 2016

28firefighter said:
Buyback scheduled. January 13 at 4pm. I had to end up scheduling it at Audi of Tacoma (an hour south of Seattle) because it was the earliest. The next available appointments in Seattle or Bellevue were after February 2nd, which happens to be baby's due date.

I would have had to take the 13th in Tacoma or wait until late February, which seemed less than ideal.

My 3 year old girl was supposed to arrive December 12th, 2013, but as you can't plan life sometimes, she was born on November 8th. My S4 arrived ready for pickup November 9th (after a 3 month wait). I hope that doesn't happen to you or your baby (not good to be born 5 weeks premature), but sometimes you can't plan things out.

When I told my Parents I wanted to get a track weekend in just before Thanksgiving they thought I was being unreasonable (this was before the baby was born). I said it was a good 2-1/2 weeks before the due date, I should be fine being out of town for the weekend. They said 4 weeks would be reasonable minimum buffer to leave a pregnant woman alone. Turns out even with their "reasonable" chosen margin for error I'd have had a change in plans!

xwesx · December 2016

Hah! Yeah, no doubt. Those little ones have a way of modifying one's plans, whether it is before, after, or during their birth!

I thought my son was throwing a wrench in our plans when he was a week prior to the "due date." As our first, I had this unreasonable notion that due date meant "on or after." LOL Our daughter ended up coming two weeks after her due date, which was five days prior to a planned drive to Oregon. We still took the trip, with a few comfort modifications for my wife.

That turned out to be one of our most memorable trips (and mostly for good reasons!).

28firefighter · December 2016

I know for sure that he is going to arrive whenever he feels like it. I'm well aware even with the 13th, I may need to cancel and reschedule. My nephew was 3 weeks early and my niece a week.

kyfdx · December 2016

28firefighter said:
I know for sure that he is going to arrive whenever he feels like it. I'm well aware even with the 13th, I may need to cancel and reschedule. My nephew was 3 weeks early and my niece a week.

Hey... you have to make that buyback appointment. Priorities!

28firefighter · December 2016

My wife has me pricing out ductless A/C to have installed at the house now. That profit is going to go out as quickly as it came in...

qbrozen · December 2016

What in the world is ductless AC? A window unit? Ha!

half my profit is already gone. Family finally talked me into getting a dog, which involved fencing and a dog door and care supplies. Not to mention the cost of the dog.

kyfdx · December 2016

Signed up with Chase, last night... money in account today.

stickguy · December 2016

congrats.

kyfdx · December 2016

stickguy said:
congrats.

Thanks!

My profit? New HVAC this past summer...

28firefighter · December 2016

qbrozen said:
What in the world is ductless AC? A window unit? Ha!

half my profit is already gone. Family finally talked me into getting a dog, which involved fencing and a dog door and care supplies. Not to mention the cost of the dog.

They are the systems you see throughout most of Europe - typically from Mitsubishi. The compressor sits outside with cooling and drainage tubing running to individual condensers/blowers in each room. Newer homes here aren't built with centralized vents and don't have room for them, so ductless is our solution.

corvette · December 2016

I put a mini-split in the sunroom at my old house. More efficient than the standard forced-air HVAC in the rest of the house and the mini-split was far quieter, almost silent. Wasn't cheap, though.

xwesx · December 2016

I just have a lot of concrete in my house. Once I turn off the radiant heating system on or around May 1, the floors tend to keep the house cool (between 60 and 70) through any summer heat snaps. And, living in the subarctic, we don't get an excessive number of those!

I sorta spent part of return about the same time I bought the car via a large donation to a friend who suffered a stroke this summer. But, in reality, that was just a hit to our overall savings, as we would have done that regardless of any other actions.

I have no intention of doing anything "different" as a result of this investment.

Sandman6472 · December 2016

Funny how kids are...my 3rd tried to come 6 weeks early but they stopped it at the hospital. A week later, he came and that was that! Our second was on time but our first, two weeks late. These major life events seem to happen whenever they want, science can only predict a reasonable date based on previous data. Luckily, they all turned out great and have turned into awesome adults, and all working! Oldest and youngest are now engaged to wonderful folks, so 2017 is looking to be a very exciting year for the Sandman family!

The Sandman

andres3 · January 2017

Appointment for VW buyback set for 1/30/17 at 4 PM for $29,986.73. I'll need to look at the contract to get the exact original out the door price, but more or less a 1,000 dollar loss for 19,000 miles of use by the time we return it.

This data is good for @Michaell spreadsheet.

I checked at 3 other local dealers and this one was the earliest appointment by chance.

stickguy · January 2017

well, not many cars you can drive for 19k miles and 2 years, for $40/month.

andres3 · January 2017

stickguy said:
well, not many cars you can drive for 19k miles and 2 years, for $40/month.

If they wanted more to select the emissions modification they shouldn't have tied half the money to the actual fix getting completed, as there is no timetable for that. With that regulation, anyone on the fence like me quickly jumped ship, as money today is worth a lot more than money tomorrow, or who knows how far down the road.

I'd of been a lot more tempted by $7K+ immediately, than percentages spread out over an unknown time period.

stickguy · January 2017

they may be happy to be done with you all, and end up with a fleet of used cars just waiting for the fix so they can resell them.

xwesx · January 2017

I received my appointment reminder, and it did include an upward adjustment as expected, but was still about $100 lower than the calculator had "predicted." So, I had to do more snooping to try and figure out why it was off. After reading through all of the related calculation documentation in the settlement and on the FTC website, I came to two conclusions:

1. I should just be satisfied with the number presented, which is about $150 higher than what the tables and calculation methods would suggest. I don't know what went wrong with the process as compared to the "exact" numbers others reported, but so it goes.
2. I played this thing all wrong! I'm not sure if anyone read through this fine print (perhaps @qbrozen did?), but the settlement states that it will pay up to 130% of the buyback amount (that's the sum of modified 9/15 NADA trade value and restitution) for loan forgiveness! Seriously; I could have borrowed up to $35,000 on this car and the settlement would have paid it all off. So, let's see..... $35K - $18.5K for vehicle = 16,500. Less, of course, probably 3x for the cost of the money (i.e., interest), but, still. That would have netted me a solid $13K in the pocket, or upwards of $5,000 more than the method I took. I doubt my institution would have gone that far upside down on a loan, but I'm sure I could have played it a lot better than I did.

Ah, sigh. The roads not traveled.

qbrozen · January 2017

I did know about that, in fact. But it is nearly impossible to bury that much on those cars at this point since they were worth so little. They had a hard time getting me financed as it was, and that was with borrowing 23,000 on a 16,000 car with a 30,000 buyback.

kyfdx · January 2017

I think the financing help was only for those who owned the cars, pre- 09/2015.

breld · January 2017

Yeah - the loan forgiveness terms exclude any amounts that became delinquent after June 21, 2016 and any additional loan amounts made after June 21, 2016. So, basically you couldn't inflate your loan amount after news broke of the settlement.

And it effectively prevented us new owners from getting a loan paid off in excess of the buyback amount.

xwesx · January 2017

breld said:
Yeah - the loan forgiveness terms exclude any amounts that became delinquent after June 21, 2016 and any additional loan amounts made after June 21, 2016. So, basically you couldn't inflate your loan amount after news broke of the settlement.

And it effectively prevented us new owners from getting a loan paid off in excess of the buyback amount.

Ah, yes, I see that now. I saw the part about "additional loan amounts," but did not notice that it also said "including new loans." This was in "Exhibit 1" on page six. it definitely did not exclude post-9/15 buyers, though. It just set a cut-off point of 6/21/16 that did not exist for other aspects of the settlement.

Okay then, sticking with #1. I feel better about that now.

andres3 · January 2017

xwesx said:
I received my appointment reminder, and it did include an upward adjustment as expected, but was still about $100 lower than the calculator had "predicted." So, I had to do more snooping to try and figure out why it was off. After reading through all of the related calculation documentation in the settlement and on the FTC website, I came to two conclusions:

1. I should just be satisfied with the number presented, which is about $150 higher than what the tables and calculation methods would suggest. I don't know what went wrong with the process as compared to the "exact" numbers others reported, but so it goes.
2. I played this thing all wrong! I'm not sure if anyone read through this fine print (perhaps @qbrozen did?), but the settlement states that it will pay up to 130% of the buyback amount (that's the sum of modified 9/15 NADA trade value and restitution) for loan forgiveness! Seriously; I could have borrowed up to $35,000 on this car and the settlement would have paid it all off. So, let's see..... $35K - $18.5K for vehicle = 16,500. Less, of course, probably 3x for the cost of the money (i.e., interest), but, still. That would have netted me a solid $13K in the pocket, or upwards of $5,000 more than the method I took. I doubt my institution would have gone that far upside down on a loan, but I'm sure I could have played it a lot better than I did.

Ah, sigh. The roads not traveled.

The whole "loan forgiveness" part of the settlement irked me. Another bailout for those that over-borrow and over-leverage with no means or intention of paying it back unless they are "bailed out." Why not just give everyone 130% so as to be fair? Or maybe 115% to all so that the number is spread out over everyone fairly.

How long would it have taken us to open an Edmunds Bank of Auto Loans specifically designed to over-lend to TDI buyers? If we wanted to open a bank right now, how long would it take us?

Never mind, just read about the cut off date clause.

xwesx · January 2017

andres3 said:

The whole "loan forgiveness" part of the settlement irked me. Another bailout for those that over-borrow and over-leverage with no means or intention of paying it back unless they are "bailed out." Why not just give everyone 130% so as to be fair? Or maybe 115% to all so that the number is spread out over everyone fairly.

How long would it have taken us to open an Edmunds Bank of Auto Loans specifically designed to over-lend to TDI buyers? If we wanted to open a bank right now, how long would it take us?

Never mind, just read about the cut off date clause.

Well, no, that's still somewhat true for others that got in way too upside down on these cars. I think it's ridiculous that anyone should bail them out. I mean, 30% over the buyback?! That's ludicrous. The buyback amount itself was still about 30% over FMV, so we're talking folks that are way, way upside down.

andres3 · January 2017

xwesx said:

andres3 said:

The whole "loan forgiveness" part of the settlement irked me. Another bailout for those that over-borrow and over-leverage with no means or intention of paying it back unless they are "bailed out." Why not just give everyone 130% so as to be fair? Or maybe 115% to all so that the number is spread out over everyone fairly.

How long would it have taken us to open an Edmunds Bank of Auto Loans specifically designed to over-lend to TDI buyers? If we wanted to open a bank right now, how long would it take us?

Never mind, just read about the cut off date clause.
Well, no, that's still somewhat true for others that got in way too upside down on these cars. I think it's ridiculous that anyone should bail them out. I mean, 30% over the buyback?! That's ludicrous. The buyback amount itself was still about 30% over FMV, so we're talking folks that are way, way upside down.

I attribute the generosity to bailout underwater TDI owners to the fact the main courthouse for the settlement was San Francisco, correct? Blue states generally like their bailouts. Some want to forgive all student debt.

Can someone teach me how to refinance my home loan into student debt if one of those ever gets elected.

breld · January 2017

Well, I imagine the motivation on VWs part is that they need to achieve that 85% buyback rate at some date (in 2019 I believe?) or face substantial penalties.

So I suppose they wanted to encourage all owners, including those who are upside down on their loans, to turn their cars back in.

Not saying it's fair, but I'd say the settlement as a whole was pretty generous. Doesn't seem they are going down the same road for the 3.0l TDI vehicles.

Sandman6472 · January 2017

Seems like everyone is going to get that extra compensation for the issue of falsifying the info on the diesel engines so just be happy with the amount over and above your costs. I have found that it's best to never look a gift horse in the mouth as they say! At the end of the day, most everyone is ending up with extra funds for going through the whole process and that's a win/win for everybody! Take the money and run folks...run!

The Sandman

qbrozen · January 2017

I couldn't really think of a way someone would be THAT upside-down at this point.

xwesx · January 2017

qbrozen said:
I couldn't really think of a way someone would be THAT upside-down at this point.

No doubt! However, I have a family member who is 100% upside down on a car (e.g., owes twice what the car is worth), so I guess it is possible.

qbrozen · January 2017

Ok, please explain!

I'm thinking...hmmm...bought a new S-class and rolled in 24 mos of a 48-mo 7-series lease?

corvette · January 2017

I'm doubting there are many banks that will touch that kind of risk.

stickguy · January 2017

if you have enough income, maybe. Basically ends up being like an unsecured personal loan. I hear rich folk can get those!

xwesx · January 2017

qbrozen said:
Ok, please explain!

I'm thinking...hmmm...bought a new S-class and rolled in 24 mos of a 48-mo 7-series lease?

I think it is mostly the combination of a long loan term with a quickly depreciating car. I think you said previously that his trade-in was something like $4,500. He bought it two years ago, paid something like $16K for it, and still owes $11,500.

For once, he didn't go into the car rolling negative equity from a previous vehicle, but now he's stuck with this car until he gets right on it. He had done the rolling negative equity thing three times previously, and was nearly 6K upside down on his prior car at the time of purchase (on a $22K car). In a way, he lucked out on that car and it was declared totalled in a fender-bender, so his gap covered the loan.

kyfdx · January 2017

Yeah.. with the premium paid for the TDI buybacks, getting to 130% of the buyback amount would be just about impossible, I think.

I don't really look at it as those upside-down owners being "bailed out". They didn't ask for this situation. They just got lucky and took advantage (as the rest of us did).

andres3 · January 2017

kyfdx said:
Yeah.. with the premium paid for the TDI buybacks, getting to 130% of the buyback amount would be just about impossible, I think.

I don't really look at it as those upside-down owners being "bailed out". They didn't ask for this situation. They just got lucky and took advantage (as the rest of us did).

But none of the original buyers asked for this situation. Why should one get 30% more than another just because they owe more? The car is worth what it is worth and that's all there is to it.

My theory is the way to be upside down is to have rolled-in negative equity from a previous purchase and loan.

kyfdx · January 2017

andres3 said:

kyfdx said:
Yeah.. with the premium paid for the TDI buybacks, getting to 130% of the buyback amount would be just about impossible, I think.

I don't really look at it as those upside-down owners being "bailed out". They didn't ask for this situation. They just got lucky and took advantage (as the rest of us did).
But none of the original buyers asked for this situation. Why should one get 30% more than another just because they owe more? The car is worth what it is worth and that's all there is to it.

My theory is the way to be upside down is to have rolled-in negative equity from a previous purchase and loan.

Why give me $25,576 for a car that I only paid $16,100 for? Just lucky. (as I noted above).

Also, as noted, it would be pretty hard to still owe 130% of the buyback amount, over 15 months after you bought the vehicle. You could easily owe 130% of present value, but not the buyback amount, I don't think.
High mileage drivers could possibly come close, as their buyback amounts are less.

Plus, that's the maximum allowed. I'll guess the percentage of owners that had negative equity from the buyback amount at 1%, at most.

andres3 · January 2017

kyfdx said:

andres3 said:

kyfdx said:
Yeah.. with the premium paid for the TDI buybacks, getting to 130% of the buyback amount would be just about impossible, I think.

I don't really look at it as those upside-down owners being "bailed out". They didn't ask for this situation. They just got lucky and took advantage (as the rest of us did).
But none of the original buyers asked for this situation. Why should one get 30% more than another just because they owe more? The car is worth what it is worth and that's all there is to it.

My theory is the way to be upside down is to have rolled-in negative equity from a previous purchase and loan.
Why give me $25,576 for a car that I only paid $16,100 for? Just lucky. (as I noted above).

Also, as noted, it would be pretty hard to still owe 130% of the buyback amount, over 15 months after you bought the vehicle. You could easily owe 130% of present value, but not the buyback amount, I don't think.
High mileage drivers could possibly come close, as their buyback amounts are less.

Plus, that's the maximum allowed. I'll guess the percentage of owners that had negative equity from the buyback amount at 1%, at most.

Whoever sold it to you the TDI for $16,100 made a mistake in your favor is all.

xwesx · January 2017

kyfdx said:
Plus, that's the maximum allowed. I'll guess the percentage of owners that had negative equity from the buyback amount at 1%, at most.

Ladies and gentlemen of the juy, I turn your attention back to Exhibit One:

3. Funding Pool. The “Funding Pool” means the maximum $10,033,000,000 funding pool from which Class Members will be compensated and is the same funding pool described in the FTC Consent Order and the DOJ Consent Decree. The Funding Pool amount of $10,033,000,000 was calculated based on an assumed 100% Buyback of purchased Eligible Vehicles and 100% Lease Termination of leased Eligible Vehicles. The Funding Pool includes (1) $42,670,723 designated for loan forgiveness for Eligible Owners who choose a Buyback and who owe more on their Eligible Vehicles than they would receive in the Buyback, as described in ¶ 14 below (the “Loan Forgiveness Designated Fund”); (2) $26,000,000 designated to pay remaining future lease payments previously owed to VCI as the lessor of leased Eligible Vehicles held by lessees choosing Lease Termination (the “Future Lease Payments Designated Fund”); and (3) $9,964,329,277 to pay Vehicle Value, Owner Restitution, Lessee Restitution, and Seller Restitution as described in ¶¶ 4, 7, and 9 below (the “Principal Fund”). For more information, see the definition of “Funding Pool” in the Class Action Agreement.

The pool for loan forgiveness is $43.7M. If we estimate that the average maximum forgiveness amount is $8,000 (i.e., the amount beyond the buyback total), this works out to about 5,400 owners. In a pool of 500,000 vehicles, that is, not surprisingly about 1%.

Still, that is a HUGE sum of money, and the majority of folks who take advantage of this are likely not $8K upside down over the buyback. So, if they were to use that pool up, on an average of maybe $3K over, you're looking at about 14,000 owners in this pickle. And who said Americans aren't irresponsible?

Oh, nobody....

kyfdx · January 2017

andres3 said:

kyfdx said:

andres3 said:

kyfdx said:
Yeah.. with the premium paid for the TDI buybacks, getting to 130% of the buyback amount would be just about impossible, I think.

I don't really look at it as those upside-down owners being "bailed out". They didn't ask for this situation. They just got lucky and took advantage (as the rest of us did).
But none of the original buyers asked for this situation. Why should one get 30% more than another just because they owe more? The car is worth what it is worth and that's all there is to it.

My theory is the way to be upside down is to have rolled-in negative equity from a previous purchase and loan.
Why give me $25,576 for a car that I only paid $16,100 for? Just lucky. (as I noted above).

Also, as noted, it would be pretty hard to still owe 130% of the buyback amount, over 15 months after you bought the vehicle. You could easily owe 130% of present value, but not the buyback amount, I don't think.
High mileage drivers could possibly come close, as their buyback amounts are less.

Plus, that's the maximum allowed. I'll guess the percentage of owners that had negative equity from the buyback amount at 1%, at most.
Whoever sold it to you the TDI for $16,100 made a mistake in your favor is all.

A new car dealer that had the car on the lot for over 4 months. I talked him down a whopping $650 from his asking price. I didn't steal it.

henryn · January 2017

I bought mine from a small used car lot. He showed me the amount he paid at auction, we negotiated for a few minutes, and I gave him about $800 more than he paid at auction. He was happy, I was happy. We talked about the "potential buyback", he was aware of it, did not want to gamble on it, and did not want to have his money tied up waiting for it.

breld · January 2017

My dealer had the JSW on his lot for a shockingly long time - going on a year. As he put it, they're a Chevy dealer in a small town - not much of an audience for an import wagon. He was happy to have me take it off his hands - it had been discounted so much that I got a good deal at a few hundred off their asking price.

28firefighter · January 2017

Same boat for my ozone destroyer. The car was subject to the Takata recall, so the local Audi dealer did not want it any longer for their lot. He picked it up and had it sitting for more than 4 months before I came around. He was more than aware of the buyback and just did not want his money tied up any longer than necessary.

28firefighter · January 2017

Received my reminder email tonight for the appointment next week. Amount in the email matches the offer letter, as expected.

kyfdx · January 2017

28firefighter said:
Received my reminder email tonight for the appointment next week. Amount in the email matches the offer letter, as expected.

Woo hoo!!

qbrozen · January 2017

$29,987. That is the updated buyback I just received in the reminder email. I know I drove it quite a bit, but a $990 hit is pretty harsh. Oh well. Good thing it is still a tidy profit.

28firefighter · January 2017

For some poetic justice, someone hit the A3 while it was parked on the street. Doesn't look like a big deal but the front drivers side bumper is definitely pretty scraped up.

No note, of course.

breld · January 2017

That's unbelievable. Fortunately it won't affect you, but it's not like they knew that.

28firefighter · January 2017

breld said:

That's unbelievable. Fortunately it won't affect you, but it's not like they knew that.

It's very believable. The drivers here are so oblivious that I'm willing to bet they didn't even know they hit it.

corvette · January 2017

If the damage is above your collision deductible, you can probably make a claim on your own insurance, get a check, and not fix it before selling it back.

VW TDI Settlement - buying a TDI now

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