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Comments
87 TLC 240k, I changed synthetic oil and oem filters at 15,000 intervals. Bottom line is: extended drain intervals also work.
While you change oil 80 times, I will change it 16 times. (whose being anal here?) Or from a marketing perspective: Why change it 16 times when 80 times will do?
That's how the Quick Lube places stay in business, use crappy products but at 3000
miles it makes no difference!
Everyone has to live with their beliefs and for most people it is 3000 mile changes as noted in the bible, (Luke (Pres of Pennzoil) Passage 14.2)
If 15-30K synth oil changes work just as well as 3K dino oil changes, why does anyone bother to change at 3K? I guess they like wasting time?
What is the benefit of a 3K oil change over extended drains with a quality synth? If you can't answer that, then don't knock the synth users!
But in connection with my job, I had an opportunity to talk to Lube engineers and our corporate Lube Oil guy concerning oil related problems we were having. I then became aware that I might be wasting valuable time doing more frequent oil changes, putting in inferior products. I then saw more confirming information information in connection with Mobil's testing with extended oil drain intervals and essentially no wear after 200K. Most folks really don't have the accessibility to the information I received or the inclination to research the subject. For most- oil comes in a plastic container-some of it costs $1.25 some costs $5.00. I certainly understand where they are coming from.
Armtdm has some good posts on the subject above. Syn simply just isn't for everyone.
A person could simply read any 20 random posts and learn all they need to know.
my dealer charges $19.99 for an oil+filter change
every 3.5K mi... how expensive is that compared to
protecting my $19,999 investment?
Thank you, gentlemen.
Mr Shiftright
Host
Sportscars, Repair & Maintenance and Classics Boards
Should some new development come along that changes the face of the synthetic oil industry, we could always start a new thread.
vguard
Al
What benefit does a 3K oil change have over an extended drain of say 15K with a quality synthetic and analysis? I have asked this question many times, but still have not seen an answer.
BTW, if you say the 3K is cheaper, that is not necessarily true. Depending on the yearly mileage, extended drains may be less expensive.
If you say there is better protection, please specify why, and don't give us the old song-and-dance of "my car ran 800,000 miles on 3K oil changes, therefore they is the best!" Post some actual information that someone can use.
If the answer is because that's what the car manufacturer's recommendation is for severe duty, I can respect your decision. However, that does not supply an answer to the question, and is simply a warm-and-fuzzy for the owner.
Well... what about it?
Anyway, even after the warranty period is up most people just do not want to spend the money for synthetics. Cost is reasonable if done by owner but $40-$50 if done at a shop and people just do not see the benefit.
The real culprits then are the auto manufacturers/dealers who will not take the initiative to extend the recommended drain intervals knowing full well that they can safely be done, especially if using synths. This is not all auto makers mind you, and the ones who are extending the drain intervals, namely Volkswagon, GM, etc. should be commended.
On the BMW side when owners had to pay for oil changes the interval was 3000 miles, now with the first 3 years free the manuals and dealers all say, come back at 15,000 we don't want to see you. Mercedes now at 15,000.
As I noted before, we have 5 year 150,000 miles coolant, 100,000 mile spark plugs, 50,000 miles severe service tranny fluid life (100,000 normal) but dealers still push 3000 mile oil changes. No doubt the technology and products are here to permit extended drains but dealer service depts would be hurt dramatically, and quick lubes. Also, I think that manufacturers, fearing that owners never check under the hood, with 15,000 mile changes would never check the oil level and they would be hit with a ton of claims. Easy to document a oil change, more difficult to document the oil level was checked and it was okay or added some etc. If dealer salesmen actually instructed new owners on how to check fluids and drive home the need to do so it would be great. All they care about is the sale and most do not even know the maintenance requirements of the cars they sell, at least from my experience. Oh, sure 87 octane okay but look in the manual it says 91, no concept what a timing belt vs chain is etc.
Yep! you have hit the major points on the head. When it is on the customers nickel, 3k intervals or invite engine disaster! When on the dealers nickel, dont see us before 15k (synthetic oil) or you pay for it!!
You surely did not see the posts about oil analysis or chose to ignore them? Just like urine or blood samples, but for cars. Draw a sample and sent them off to the lab, if so in doubt. If a new oil change is 100% useable life left, oil change anaylsis will give you the useful life left, at the mileage snap shot (when you draw the sample).
Without getting too technical you can easily extrapolate the remaining useful life given the trend analysis.
I would gather that the oil analysis you do is "repair trend analysis" for lack of a better word.
In a former life, I used to have a NDI (non destruct inspection) section reporting to me. While we had strict jet engine hr maint and repair guidelines, we also did periodic inspections for a whole host of trend analysis. As a matter of fact the consumer version is a trickle down tech version of this military version.
Obviously, those who do analysis know that the oil is perfectly clean even after 20,000 miles. If I changed at 3K, I would be throwing away perfectly good oil. I wouldn't feel very happy about that.
Ah, it reminds me of a subtle but maybe obscure point. As I have stated in previous posts, I change at 15,000 intervals with oem oil filters and Mobil One synthetic 5-30W to 10-30W. One thing I have noted, is that I am down app 1/4 to 1/2 a quart at roughly the 14,000 mile mark. The point is that if you are changing oil, at say: the 3k interval, you really have no idea of your oil consumption over the longer haul. (in excess of say 3k)
I'm having a little trouble sorting through all the "facts" here, but one thing that jumped out at me is the references to Oil Analysis. How do you get one? What do you do with the results? Does the lab explain what the results mean?
I think that if I could get an meaningful analysis of the oil in my 4 cyl 94 Accord with 110000 miles, that I changed (dino) oil in every 5000 miles, it would go a long way towards helping decide what to do with my new vehicle.
Also, fuel as a % of volume indicates too many starts wiht engine not heating up.
Sample kits can be obtained in many auto parts stores etc, I use Analysis Inc and if you call them they will sell you the plastic suction container( and box to mail back etc) etc. for $.75 each to draw the sample and then return to them. Prove wear metals in PPM as well as chemical analysis of oil fuel, solids and water as a % of volume. 800 222-0071
I alway suggest synthetic oil but that is my pref. Just got a smaple back on my Camry, 135,000 miles, oil changed at 7,500, showed an increase in lead but all others very normal compared to prior years, lead content has slowly been increasing and I need to find out why?
Hope this helps.
thanks,
Gary
Why synthetic in a Toyota? One word -- Sludge. See this topic in Edmunds. The vast majority are Toyotas. Now, if you religiously change your Toyota at 3,000 miles, it should not be a problem. But even going to Toyota's severe recommendation of 5,000 can cause SOME vehicles to sludge. If you want to go 5,000 miles between changes, go to synthetic and protect your very expensive investment.
The sludge site shows the grief owners get if they have exceeded the severe schedule and their engine sludges. During the time of the guarantee, change conventional every 3K, and synthetic every 5K. Then you will have done your part.
Don't forget good quality filters changed every 3K.
To each his own and I can live with that. With me, I say that, but I also never know what the future may bring and I may just have to keep the car I have a very long time so I go the synthetic route.
So I have ruled out the cost factor. I'm still searching for the benefit of a 3K oil change.
Now, the folks that see no attraction in this may well want to avoid it altogether. I do not fault them for that at all. If I just went out to the garage and laid under my car doing nothing productive, well, what would people think? I might end up involved with psychological analysis, and that costs a lot more than oil analysis...
I spend enough "quality time" under the hood of my vehicles to warrant mechanics status. No problem there. I would much rather be installing go-fast goodies though then slopping around in an oil pan looking for my drain plug.
I once used the oil mat that Summit racing sells when I was tearing apart my tranny. Works very well at absorbing any spilled fluids, and when you are done, you simply roll it up and toss it, or try to get more uses out of it if you didn't spill too much.
I just never could justify buying Mobil One. For the money, go for diester base, or the more expensive spread, polyolester (such as Red Line).
We'll see ...
I have a buddy with a similar car (Honda Civic) and he uses Mobil 1. Since you can find that stuff around here in 5 quart jugs for $18, I recommended he stick with it and just use Redline MTL in his tranny.
I get a good feeling babying my car ... at least a little. And, since I usually sell my cars to friends and/or family, the payoffs are not merely in my head. >;^}
--- Bror Jace
When comparing PAO's to polyol esters/diesters, there is not much difference (a few %) in evaporative loss from heat which leads to lower viscosity and grade degradation. However, when comparing any synthetic to dino, the loss can be upwards of 20% difference.
Consider also that a synthetic (PAO or otherwise) 15W-50 and 20W-50 will provide approximately 25% higher actual viscosity in high-shear areas such as bearings than a petroleum-based 20W-50.