bigorange30, it's not disappointing to hear your annual oil costs are similar. If I was using synthetic, my costs would be quite a bit higher as one of my vehicles consumes about 10 quarts of oil in 20k miles.
how often would you change something like Castrol Syntec, Pennzoil's synthetic, etc. - I'm talking about the oils with $4+ per-quart prices but which are not PAO or ester-based. I.e., these synthetics seem to share some key characteristics with the group 2 or 3 base stock conventional oils.
My impression is that the margins on synthetics are much larger than on conventional oils. Something like, and I'm just making this up, 20% on conventional but more like 50% on synthetic. So the oil company makes 20 cents a quart times my 75 quarts of conventional, or 15 bucks a year. If I were using synthetic with a 9k change interval, I'd be using 25 quarts instead of 75. 25 qts x $2 a quart = 50 bucks.
Aren't the oil companies making more money from my business if I use synthetic than if I use conventional? Or are some of my assumptions out of whack.
so you definitely put the Castrol Syntecs of the world in a lower class than Mobil 1? To me, these 'pretender synthetics' are the worst buy on the market. Synthetic prices without the accompanying top performance.
I pay $17.88 for a 5 qt jug of Mobil1 at Wal-Mart which is $3.58/qt. I think your 50% profit estimate is high too. I am not doubting that profits on synthetics are higher than profits (although that's not know either) but I think the difference in %profit is much less than you think. Its really a flawed arguement unless we have all the facts.
I'd love to hear more info from people who know something about margins on conventional vs. synthetic oil. Probably tough info to come by, but I'm curious.
As for per-quart costs, $4 vs. $3.58 amounts to a 10% difference or less. Not that significant. I end up getting much of my oil for less than a buck a quart due to sales and rebates. E.g. $4.80 case rebate (40 cents a quart) on Citgo Supergard recently. My final pre-tax cost: 73 cents a quart. Not bad for what most folks seem to think is a pretty decent oil. I figure $1 and $4 are decent ballpark figures. You could say $1 vs. $3.50, 75 cents vs. $3.50, $1.50 vs. $4.50, etc. It all depends on brand and how good a shopper you are.
Back when I was a Mobil 1 user, I got it for anywhere from $2.94 (on sale at Target) to $3.60 a quart (Sam's Club case price). I shake my head every time I go to K-Mart during a $4/qt Mobil 1 sale and the shelves are empty. Folks, you can get Mobil 1 more cheaply than that! Some people just aren't good shoppers.
due to my lack of patience. I don't think there are many who will argue that "true" synthetics are superior oils, however there is disagreement as to applications. They may or may not be the most cost effective way to go. This depends on your car, driving habits, road conditions, etc., etc.
What is known is that we all have different driving habits/cars/conditions. There is not a "one size fits all" for our purposes. What is most interesting is to find out that each oil and application can produce such different results in an oil analysis. I personally would not spend the money for a used oil analysis as I am strange and do enjoy changing the oil. I am, however, spending money for virgin oil analysis just to quench my curiosity.
God, I do need a life! LOL
Anyway, good luck to all, however they choose to treat their engine.
At the risk of offending you twice in one night, I think you may have a problem other than oil if it consumes 10 qts of oil in 20k miles.
I currently have three Toyota Lancruisers and they use app 1/4 to 1/2 a quart at the 14,000 mark. I have a Corvette Z06 that consumes 1 qt per 5000 miles or in your figure of 20k that would be 4 qts.
the offending vehicle is a 1998 Isuzu Trooper. The 3.5L motor and its 3.2L predecessor are well-known to consume oil. Some Troopers with these engines consume little or none, while others such as our vehicle consume quite a bit more than one would typically expect and accept from a well-running, healthy modern engine.
I don't like a consumption rate of a quart every 2,000 miles, but it is not surprising on this vehicle and I can live with it.
The utter lethargy! An unwillingness to climb under each vehicle owned every 3K and change the oil and filter, yet you pretend to be an automotive aficionado! You synthetic guys are just plain lazy. And while I was off line, you ganged up on bluedevils and picked on him. Now that is shabby, shabby, shabby. You boys have got to shape up. (:oÞ
I was pleased to see that bigorange30 distinguishes between what I call 'real' synthetic oils, such as Mobil 1, and 'pretender' synthetics, such as Castrol Syntec. I was also pleased to see that bigorange30 would have a similar level of confidence (prior to researching the oils and analyzing used samples) in a pretender synthetic than in an SL-rated hydrocracked conventional oil.
What bothers me most is the blind faith some folks have in anything that says 'synthetic' on the label. I am getting the impression that the Town Hall regulars on the oil forums are NOT members of that camp. Unfortunately, many of the less frequent visitors here, as well as many auto enthusiasts who love their particular make/model and want to give it 'the best', are. Some of the comments from Ford Contour owners on an enthusiasts web site, which shall remain nameless, seem very closed-minded and ignorant on the subject of engine oil and lubrication. Folks like these are really into their cars, but they buy into the marketing hype and neglect to really learn, investigate, and research things.
There is much to what you have said. You know, I really suspect that a lot of the discourtesy that flies from time to time is based on irrational "believers" recognizing that with the advent of Chevron IsoSyn base stocks, the clear superiority of synthetics is getting very hazy. When a person pays $4.00 (or so) for a quart of oil, suspecting in his heart that it's terribly overpriced, he has a lot of pride to protect-- face to save, you might say. Why else would otherwise pretty nice folks dive head first into insulting others whose only offense is simply to have pointed out the increasing appeal of the latest developments in mineral oil technology? Science is a wonderful thing, and we must all be ready for the future shock it creates.
Why do we have Morons as judges such as the one that let Castrol get away with claiming a super or ultra refined oil (my term for it) being called synthetic. Oil companys seem to try real hard to keep us the average joes from knowing what is in their product. Chevron seems to be on the up and up and calls its oil what it is. Castrol and others are not. The new better Hydrocracking refinement is a step forward but is not synthetic as I see the term. I see the hydrocracked oils as top end dino oil. Again shame on the Judge that started this mess. Is there any hope of getting the law changed so we are better protected?
That is a good price even for a dino. However, there is another principle at stake here. I want to use a GOOD oil that offers good protection for my engine. Although, I don't have data to support it, many people believe that engine parts actually last longer with Mobil1 and other synthetics. It is believeable and therefore I am willing to give it a shot even if I spend $20 more/year compared to your 73 cent/quart CHEAP oil. There is an old saying that I like "You get what you pay for." Now you certainly have to be careful and do your research when abiding by this philosophy. Just going to the store and ALWAYS buying the most expensive brand of anything would not be very wise at all.
All I want is for Chevron Supreme is to be able to go 15k oil change intervals just like Mobil One.
Either you haven't been reading or you just like to get up on the soap box anyway!!
No amount of your pooh poohing the facts is going to change the fact that even YOU wouldn't run Chevron Supreme 15k, now is it? So that I am crystal CLEAR, neither would I.
It would please me to no end to pay 1.08 or less per qt for the conventional oil to take the place of the synthetic.@ 3.67 per qt. and run it 15k miles JUST like Mobil One. At this current stage of the Chevron product development : "NOT going to happen."
I don't know how much clearer I can be on this subject.
Incidently Chevron is one of the biggest manufacturers and pioneers of the new hydro cracked oils.. Chevron also has a "synthetic" oil. It is not on the common consumer oil market.
Are you sure you wanted to respond to #4672? That posting was to bluedevils, and was a commiseration concerning discourtesy and insulting remarks that sometimes crop up in this thread. I guess you must have typed the wrong number. I have no idea whether you will ever get your wishes concerning Chevron oil. You probably should stick to whatever you currently use. You will have lost nothing, and no one here will have taken anything away from you. I'm curious just which facts you feel have been "pooh poohed," but I won't ask. I am sure you have been just as clear on this subject as you can be.
Well, we have two cars and one of them seems to be very sensitive to the oil I put in. (Actually the engine is very sensitive if I happen to put regular rather than premium gas, but that's beside the point). When I switched to Mobil 1 I got noticeably better gas mileage which at the time I calculated to translate into about $15 savings over 5K miles. (It must be more now since the gas prices went up.) So, to me at least, the cost of synthetic is about the same as the cost of dino oil, if the change interval is 5K miles for both.
I change this car's oil every 5K miles, irrespective of whether I use dino of synthetic oil, and since Mobil 1 ends up being as cheap I tend to use it instead of any regular oil.
Been lurking for some time. I started using Mobil 1 w/ pure one filters about a year ago. Used to use dino with 3-4 k intervals. Changed to Mobil 1 mainly for the added protection in the summer heat and easy starts in the winter. There is a definite difference in the crank speed and no initial lifter tick with syn in cold weather. I understand the discussion regarding change frequency and cost, but feel the major reason to use syn is the protection... especially since my wife will start her car in 10 degree weather and take off like a bat out of hell... Changing at 6 k intervals now. 2-3800 V-6's.
On a recent trip through the southwest I had the chance to operate a vehicle from temps of 88 degrees (desert) to a low of 26 degrees. The car was blanketed with ice but when I went to start it, it clicked right on with not even a hint of labor that most conventional oiled cars go through. (Mobil One synthetic)
I think you have it about right. Those 3. L's run forever. I would consider the Supertech, Bosch, or Mobil 1. The Pure Ones are very/very thin and in longer drain intervals- frankly I am afraid of them. You can go with the larger filter (the equivalent to the PF-52) I think the Supertech # for that is ST 3980. Your reasons are very sound (easier starting and high temps). You are probably changing to often at 5K. 6 or 7 is certainly safe. But then you are pushing (IMHO) the life of the Pure One filter. I now go with the K&N and that coupled with good oil analysis has pretty well guided me to 7K oil changes with the filter change.
The point is not whether or not I will get my wish about Chevron, the point is that synthetic oil specifically Mobil One, is better! When you run it under specific parameters, it costs less per mile lubricated than conventional oil and offers higher protection levels.
Look at #4666 which is in response to a prior message. So if he pays 75 bucks for conventional oil to go 20k miles and I pay 50 for synthetic oil. Which is cheaper and which is cheaper per mile lubricated? In any case, all of us are at choice!! Bang for the buck might not even make your list of priorities.
The fact of the matter is that almost any vehicle with 3000 mile oil changes can go 200,000-250,000 with nary a problem. This of course means app 84 oil changes. Outside of the better product and protection that synthetic oil offers, changing the oil 17 times makes a whole lot more sense to me(15k mile oil changes).
I agree with your logic for your circumstances. I used to use nothing but synthetic engine oils over more than a decade. We all went through some rough times with the "regulation" of the synthetic industry, and it got hard to get past lots of half-truths and "refusals to divulge." My criteria for using Amsoil and then Redline was simply that I wanted the best for my engines, and I appreciated the near zero wear on moving surfaces. Now, take a look at the first sentence of your last paragraph, and you'll see what finally swayed me away from (expensive-by-the-quart) synthetics. Frankly, Redline prices are now astronomical, in my opinion! Including me, there are four drivers in my household, two of whom are daughters. Climbing under the vehicles every 3K helps me keep things running, and gets my oldest daughter home more often. I let one car go 10K on Redline one time, many years ago. Beyond that fluke in behavior, I find that I just won't let oil go past 5k, no matter how good it is. That reduces the value of synthetic for me, so long as synthetics sell for premium prices. Oh yeah! Let me add that finding ways to buy excellent mineral oils for under a buck per quart has become a pleasurable hobby for me. My wife regrets the loss of garage space! (:o]
IMHO If you decide to keep your vehicle 10 years+ go with the Finest Synthetics money can buy and change 3-5,000 mi intervals. IF you lease or buy vehicle every 2-5 years, Dino should be fine at every 7500 mi or 2x a year. Am Babyboomer who has owned over 40 vehicles since 1961. Have used the finest oils, ie ARCO GRAPHITE 10w-40, UNION 76 Long Distance Purple, Mobil 1, Pennzoil Performax and Pennzane (for spacecraft) etc. I hope i have purchased my last vehicle...'03 Sonoma AWD Crewcab...will make first change at 3,000 miles with GM factory fill oil for Corvettes!! (Mobil 1 SuperSyn 5W-30)... If i decide to modify (Paxton, air intake, chip and headers, ETC) May go the Royal Purple route with AC DELCO filters...
I think much of an individual's choice in oils is based on their long term view and attitude towards their vehicles. Lots of folks say they plan to keep their cars forever but few actually do, especially if family or job situation changes. And those darned 0% financing deals have a way of altering one's vehicular viewpoint.
My only response to you is, just because it doesn't cost much does NOT mean it's not a quality product. Many pro-synthetic supporters seem to think that any oil which is inexpensive is not any good. I'm not saying YOU have this attitude but it sounds like you might.
My 73 cent a quart example was not for some store-brand oil with unknown specifications. This was for Citgo SuperGard, which seems to be a very well-regarded oil and has pretty decent specs. It's $1.13 a quart at my local Meijer and the last 2 cases I bought had a $4.80 per-case rebate which knocks 40 cents a quart off the price.
Does anybody else get better gas mileage with syn oils? Or could it be that there were other factors and I got my calculations wrong when I switched from dino to syn?
To me, it seems, even keeping the SAME change interval (e.g. 5K miles) makes Syn cheaper than dino.
I personally get a range. The lowest is 6% or 1 mpg better between 13-16 mpg. Keep in mind you are subject to the ridicule of folks who use convention oil. ONE mpg doesn't sound like a lot in print, so it is an easy (sound bite able) dis. However, over the course of 250,000 miles, a 6% savings yields app 15,000 miles in savings. In practical terms, that is one year's worth of driving for a lot of folks. Assuming 15 mpg in the prior sentence's example, I save 1000 gals, say @ 1.59 per gal= app $1,590. I also change the oil 17 times (15k oil change intervals) vs 84 times (3k oil change intervals) or 67 oil change times LESS. Frankly, I like these two benefits !!!
Of course, you can carry it further, when the time comes by changing from conventional running gear oils to synthetic.. I have done that in a 6 speed Corvette by changing conventional ATF to synthetic ATF and promptly got 1 mpg more (4%) in my case. Also, in my case the gas savings was far from my mind when I did the change, as the conventional ATF is rated for the life of the vehicle. I changed it because the indications were that synthetic ATF would make the 6 speed silker in function. It truly has done that !!! So for me, the better mpg is a side or sub benefit.
My differential running gear comes OEM with synthetic running gear oil, so again I don't want to go to a conventional running gear oil, hopefully for obvious reasons.
To add, for the convention ATF to the synthetic ATF over the course of 250,000 miles, I save only app 385 gal.@ 1.75=$674. so a one mpg savings at 25mpg it is only 9,615 miles.
I have been using Flex-Drive GL 4-5 synthetic hypoid gear lubricant (Klotz brand) for replenishment and replacement service for over 20 years. It increases available power and reduces running temperatures due to its lower friction and drag on the drive line. I have applied it to Mitsubishi, Harley-Davidson, and Honda products as a replacement product, and have used it in many additional applications as a replenishment product. I am convinced that it is a better product than any conventional GL 5 product I know of. And I apologize for using the word product so many times...(:oÞ
Back in 2000, I contacted Klotz concerning getting more of this specific product, and found out that it was no longer available to buy. I am down to my last quart on the shelf. You might want to take a look at:
to see if they have another name product of interest, and perhaps similar in nature to the old Flex-Drive. This stuff is not ATF, I assume you realize. It is gear oil.
My experience with one vehicle has been that synthetic engine oil and other synthetic lubricants (ATF, differentials, transfer case, etc.) had no measaurable effect on fuel economy. I'm not making a general claim that synthetic engine oil never improves fuel economy ever, because I think in some cases it probably does. But it's just not as simple as some of the synthetic proponents would like folks to believe, and it bugs the crap out of me to see folks present it as such a black-and-white fact. It's not that clear-cut.
sdrd0q, I don't know how much of a fuel economy improvement you saw and I don't feel like getting out my calculator right now. But since synthetic oil costs roughly 2.5 to 5 times as much as conventional oil, you must have made a math error or seen a HUGE fuel economy improvement in order to conclude that the vehicle operates cheaeper on synthetic than on conventional using the same change interval.
I have not recorded any measurable fuel economy gain from using synthetic motor oil. I use Valvoline SynPower 5W-30 and Mobil 1 5W-30 in my 99 Mazda Protege ES. Observed Benefits are:
1. The car starts pretty well in the cold, I know this b/c it is pretty cold and snowing in NYC right now.
2. Engine is quiet, in fact it is quieter than my sister's Honda Civic which has fewer miles and is on a steady diet of dino oil.
3. Better protection of the engine during startup due to the lower pour point.
These are just my anectdotal observations. Everyone's car is different. If there are gains to fuel economy it would be probably 5% or less. Barely noticeable.
I change my oil and filter at 5K. I know this is a little early but I don't have the cash for an oil analysis. I figure 5K is a safe number and much further along that 3K. How much is an oil analysis anyway and where can I get one?
bluedevils: you must have made a math error or seen a HUGE fuel economy improvement in order to conclude that the vehicle operates cheaeper on synthetic than on conventional using the same change interval.
If I remember correctly I concluded I would save about $15 per 5000 miles (which was and still is my scheduled oil change period). That's not a huge fuel economy improvement, but just enough to make Mobil 1 cheaper than the dino oil.
Again, there may have been other factors involved, but the mpg definitely changed. I think it was around 4% better.
"My experience with one vehicle has been that synthetic engine oil and other synthetic lubricants (ATF, differentials, transfer case, etc.) had no measaurable effect on fuel economy. I'm not making a general claim that synthetic engine oil never improves fuel economy ever, because I think in some cases it probably does. But it's just not as simple as some of the synthetic proponents would like folks to believe, and it bugs the crap out of me to see folks present it as such a black-and-white fact. It's not that clear-cut.
sdrd0q, I don't know how much of a fuel economy improvement you saw and I don't feel like getting out my calculator right now. But since synthetic oil costs roughly 2.5 to 5 times as much as conventional oil, you must have made a math error or seen a HUGE fuel economy improvement in order to conclude that the vehicle operates cheaeper on synthetic than on conventional using the same change interval. "
Two points, 1. it just shows that what bugs the crap out of folks is different! You are not bugged in the slightest about consuming 10 qts of oil in 20k miles and to me that would be reason to stand on the manufacturers desk and demand a new engine or whatever it took. 2. When clear cut information is given it is totally denied or pooh poohed!!? Hey if you dont want to use synthetic oil, I got to tell you that works for me!!
One of the reasons I own a stock that produces oil products is the simple fact that if this thread is any indication, synthetic users are totally out gunned!Or a small minority of users! Go Chevron Supreme !!!!
Lastly, I didnt notice any difference in the Corvette Z06 gas mileage due to synthetic oil use because the OEM factory fill was synthetic and I continue to use synthetic as per OEM owners manual.
"When clear cut information is given it is totally denied or pooh poohed!!? Hey if you dont want to use synthetic oil, I got to tell you that works for me!!"
Exactly what clear-cut information are you talking about? Are you still claiming that synthetic engine oil DEFINITELY results in improved fuel economy in EVERY vehicle? I simply can't stand hearing you make those definitive statements. Since my last post, another participant came forward and reported no measurable fuel economy change when using synthetic oil. It's the same old story with you. You fail to acknowledge that there may be some validity to the other side of the argument. I don't suffer this problem. I'm not on here as a total disbeliever in synthetic engine oil. I understand it has some advantages over conventional oil. But I seek to keep the discussions here reasonable and not just slanted and biased and oversimplified. At this point I'm not sure why I bother.
You don't seem to be hearing me about the oil consumption on the Isuzu Trooper. Isuzu, like most manufacturers, says up to a quart every 1000 miles is acceptable. They are not going to do anything about an engine that burns a quart every 2000 miles. And since I know this is common in these Trooper engines, I live with it. There is nothing I or any other Trooper owners can get Isuzu to do about it.
#4700 There is a lot of validity to the conventional oil market. Like I said I own the premier manufacturer of hydrocracked oil, stock Chevron. Does that sound like a lack of acknowledgement? I think you pretty much said it: you are a disbeliever in synthetic oil.If that is not a clear statement of bias, I don't know what is. Again, no problem with that at all. I say pay your money take your chances.
I hear you loud and clear, for me that it is a good reason not to get another ISUZU.
ruking, you seem to have misread my post. I did NOT say I 'am a disbeliever in synthetic oil.' I said "I'm not on here as a total disbeliever in synthetic engine oil." Take note of the word "not" in that sentence; it's important.
There are many advantages to synthetic oil, as I said 10 minutes ago. These advantages are worthwhile. I am neither disputing nor dismissing them. All I am talking about recently are the claims of improved fuel economy. I do not feel this is a clear-cut, across-the-board, take-it-to-the-bank fuel savings. I do feel that some vehicles exhibit improved fuel economy and some do not. The degree of improvement probably varies from model to model and even from specific vehicle to specific vehicle within the same model.
Improved fuel economy IS a significant thing. All I've been saying is that a vehicle owner is not guaranteed to see a certain percentage improvement, as you have been implying.
One thing I have learned on these discussion forums is that some people are more logical and open-minded in their contributions here. I am quite comfortable with where I stand in those 2 areas.
I just re-read your post and smiled after seeing you point out my "clear statement of bias." If you don't think I respect synthetic oil and its users, then you are not understanding anything I am saying.
"Pay your money take your chances." You really think using conventional oil is that risky? That's silly.
I did not take you to say that you are a "TOTAL" disbeliever. And in fact I DID NOT SAY TOTAL did I? The fact of the matter is you are skeptical, hence your post of saying you used synthetic and got no measurable difference over conventional oil. The fact that you had no difference really could be due to a myriad of things: lead foot, etc etc. The fact that you have an "oil burner" or an oil consuming engine could indeed play a part! Since you are comfortable about the consumption, I would also have to be comfortable about your comfort. As I have stated my TLC four wheel drives' burn/consume oil at the rate of 1/4-1/2 qt per 14,000 miles. Is there a difference between your vehicles and mine? Absolutely! I have got to wonder however where is that 10 qts to my 1/4-1/2 going? You dont think consuming 10 qts per 20k is a variable that might affect or effect gas mileage? I certainly do!
At best you think that my results are an anomaly! The worst case is that you think what I am saying is BS.
In fact, I made NO such guarantee about synthetic oil but in fact told you personal anecdotal information and did the math!!?? And I qualified it didntI?So in effect you could duplicate it!!? I basically drive as normally with the synthetic as with the convention oil and see what really shakes out. Do I want synthetic to win out? Frankly no, if for no other reason than synthetic oil is more expensive up front!!
Do I think conventional oil is risky?? Heck no, especially if you change it on 3-5k oil change intervals !!! If you do 15k oil intervals I'd say YES !! What you think that I think is what is silly!!!!
15k change interval on conventional oil definitely is silly.
I am not 'skeptical' of fuel economy savings with synthetic oil. I am simply not convinced that synthetic oil always improves a vehicle's fuel economy, other factors being equal, vs. conventional oil. I do not consider your results an anomaly.
Since the oil consumption rate in my vehicle did not change measurably between conventional and synthetic oil, I do not see how that could be a factor in preventing the vehicle from getting better fuel economy with the synthetic. If the consumption was there in both cases, it's not a variable, it's a constant.
This is off-topic, but the Trooper is pretty well-regarded by those in the know as an excellent TLC/Land Rover alternative at about half the price of those 2 stalwart SUVs. True, the Trooper is no Land Cruiser, but it's a well-built truck that does many things nearly as well as the LC does them.
Comments
Aren't the oil companies making more money from my business if I use synthetic than if I use conventional? Or are some of my assumptions out of whack.
As for per-quart costs, $4 vs. $3.58 amounts to a 10% difference or less. Not that significant. I end up getting much of my oil for less than a buck a quart due to sales and rebates. E.g. $4.80 case rebate (40 cents a quart) on Citgo Supergard recently. My final pre-tax cost: 73 cents a quart. Not bad for what most folks seem to think is a pretty decent oil. I figure $1 and $4 are decent ballpark figures. You could say $1 vs. $3.50, 75 cents vs. $3.50, $1.50 vs. $4.50, etc. It all depends on brand and how good a shopper you are.
Back when I was a Mobil 1 user, I got it for anywhere from $2.94 (on sale at Target) to $3.60 a quart (Sam's Club case price). I shake my head every time I go to K-Mart during a $4/qt Mobil 1 sale and the shelves are empty. Folks, you can get Mobil 1 more cheaply than that! Some people just aren't good shoppers.
I spend for two cars 56 dollars for your same scenario, the only difference being synthetic.
What is known is that we all have different driving habits/cars/conditions. There is not a "one size fits all" for our purposes. What is most interesting is to find out that each oil and application can produce such different results in an oil analysis. I personally would not spend the money for a used oil analysis as I am strange and do enjoy changing the oil. I am, however, spending money for virgin oil analysis just to quench my curiosity.
God, I do need a life! LOL
Anyway, good luck to all, however they choose to treat their engine.
At the risk of offending you twice in one night, I think you may have a problem other than oil if it consumes 10 qts of oil in 20k miles.
I currently have three Toyota Lancruisers and they use app 1/4 to 1/2 a quart at the 14,000 mark. I have a Corvette Z06 that consumes 1 qt per 5000 miles or in your figure of 20k that would be 4 qts.
I don't like a consumption rate of a quart every 2,000 miles, but it is not surprising on this vehicle and I can live with it.
What bothers me most is the blind faith some folks have in anything that says 'synthetic' on the label. I am getting the impression that the Town Hall regulars on the oil forums are NOT members of that camp. Unfortunately, many of the less frequent visitors here, as well as many auto enthusiasts who love their particular make/model and want to give it 'the best', are. Some of the comments from Ford Contour owners on an enthusiasts web site, which shall remain nameless, seem very closed-minded and ignorant on the subject of engine oil and lubrication. Folks like these are really into their cars, but they buy into the marketing hype and neglect to really learn, investigate, and research things.
Oil companys seem to try real hard to keep us the average joes from knowing what is in their product. Chevron seems to be on the up and up and calls its oil what it is. Castrol and others are not. The new better Hydrocracking refinement is a step forward but is not synthetic as I see the term. I see the hydrocracked oils as top end dino oil.
Again shame on the Judge that started this mess. Is there any hope of getting the law changed so we are better protected?
All I want is for Chevron Supreme is to be able to go 15k oil change intervals just like Mobil One.
Either you haven't been reading or you just like to get up on the soap box anyway!!
No amount of your pooh poohing the facts is going to change the fact that even YOU wouldn't run Chevron Supreme 15k, now is it?
So that I am crystal CLEAR, neither would I.
It would please me to no end to pay 1.08 or less per qt for the conventional oil to take the place of the synthetic.@ 3.67 per qt. and run it 15k miles JUST like Mobil One. At this current stage of the Chevron product development : "NOT going to happen."
I don't know how much clearer I can be on this subject.
Incidently Chevron is one of the biggest manufacturers and pioneers of the new hydro cracked oils.. Chevron also has a "synthetic" oil. It is not on the common consumer oil market.
I have no idea whether you will ever get your wishes concerning Chevron oil. You probably should stick to whatever you currently use. You will have lost nothing, and no one here will have taken anything away from you. I'm curious just which facts you feel have been "pooh poohed," but I won't ask. I am sure you have been just as clear on this subject as you can be.
I change this car's oil every 5K miles, irrespective of whether I use dino of synthetic oil, and since Mobil 1 ends up being as cheap I tend to use it instead of any regular oil.
On a recent trip through the southwest I had the chance to operate a vehicle from temps of 88 degrees (desert) to a low of 26 degrees. The car was blanketed with ice but when I went to start it, it clicked right on with not even a hint of labor that most conventional oiled cars go through. (Mobil One synthetic)
The point is not whether or not I will get my wish about Chevron, the point is that synthetic oil specifically Mobil One, is better! When you run it under specific parameters, it costs less per mile lubricated than conventional oil and offers higher protection levels.
Look at #4666 which is in response to a prior message. So if he pays 75 bucks for conventional oil to go 20k miles and I pay 50 for synthetic oil. Which is cheaper and which is cheaper per mile lubricated? In any case, all of us are at choice!! Bang for the buck might not even make your list of priorities.
The fact of the matter is that almost any vehicle with 3000 mile oil changes can go 200,000-250,000 with nary a problem. This of course means app 84 oil changes. Outside of the better product and protection that synthetic oil offers, changing the oil 17 times makes a whole lot more sense to me(15k mile oil changes).
Oh yeah! Let me add that finding ways to buy excellent mineral oils for under a buck per quart has become a pleasurable hobby for me. My wife regrets the loss of garage space! (:o]
go with the Finest Synthetics money can buy and change 3-5,000 mi intervals. IF you lease or buy vehicle every 2-5 years, Dino should be fine at every 7500 mi or 2x a year. Am Babyboomer who has owned over 40 vehicles since 1961. Have used the finest oils, ie ARCO GRAPHITE 10w-40, UNION 76 Long Distance Purple, Mobil 1, Pennzoil Performax and Pennzane (for spacecraft) etc. I hope i have purchased my last vehicle...'03 Sonoma AWD Crewcab...will make first change at 3,000 miles with GM factory fill oil for Corvettes!! (Mobil 1 SuperSyn 5W-30)... If i decide to modify (Paxton, air intake, chip and headers, ETC) May go the Royal Purple route with AC DELCO filters...
Regards to all vehicle loving people
Andy
My 73 cent a quart example was not for some store-brand oil with unknown specifications. This was for Citgo SuperGard, which seems to be a very well-regarded oil and has pretty decent specs. It's $1.13 a quart at my local Meijer and the last 2 cases I bought had a $4.80 per-case rebate which knocks 40 cents a quart off the price.
I am sure that Bigorange30 is aware of the fact that your brand of conventional and synthetics both meet or exceed the SL specification.
To me, it seems, even keeping the SAME change interval (e.g. 5K miles) makes Syn cheaper than dino.
I personally get a range. The lowest is 6% or 1 mpg better between 13-16 mpg. Keep in mind you are subject to the ridicule of folks who use convention oil. ONE mpg doesn't sound like a lot in print, so it is an easy (sound bite able) dis. However, over the course of 250,000 miles, a 6% savings yields app 15,000 miles in savings. In practical terms, that is one year's worth of driving for a lot of folks. Assuming 15 mpg in the prior sentence's example, I save 1000 gals, say @ 1.59 per gal= app $1,590. I also change the oil 17 times (15k oil change intervals) vs 84 times (3k oil change intervals) or 67 oil change times LESS. Frankly, I like these two benefits !!!
Of course, you can carry it further, when the time comes by changing from conventional running gear oils to synthetic.. I have done that in a 6 speed Corvette by changing conventional ATF to synthetic ATF and promptly got 1 mpg more (4%) in my case. Also, in my case the gas savings was far from my mind when I did the change, as the conventional ATF is rated for the life of the vehicle. I changed it because the indications were that synthetic ATF would make the 6 speed silker in function. It truly has done that !!! So for me, the better mpg is a side or sub benefit.
My differential running gear comes OEM with synthetic running gear oil, so again I don't want to go to a conventional running gear oil, hopefully for obvious reasons.
To add, for the convention ATF to the synthetic ATF over the course of 250,000 miles, I save only app 385 gal.@ 1.75=$674. so a one mpg savings at 25mpg it is only 9,615 miles.
If you don't mind me asking, how much a quart is that ?
The Mobil One synthetic ATF is $4.99 at the local auto chain if memory serves correctly, I needed 4 qts.
http://www.klotzlube.com
to see if they have another name product of interest, and perhaps similar in nature to the old Flex-Drive. This stuff is not ATF, I assume you realize. It is gear oil.
sdrd0q, I don't know how much of a fuel economy improvement you saw and I don't feel like getting out my calculator right now. But since synthetic oil costs roughly 2.5 to 5 times as much as conventional oil, you must have made a math error or seen a HUGE fuel economy improvement in order to conclude that the vehicle operates cheaeper on synthetic than on conventional using the same change interval.
Observed Benefits are:
1. The car starts pretty well in the cold, I know this b/c it is pretty cold and snowing in NYC right now.
2. Engine is quiet, in fact it is quieter than my sister's Honda Civic which has fewer miles and is on a steady diet of dino oil.
3. Better protection of the engine during startup due to the lower pour point.
These are just my anectdotal observations. Everyone's car is different. If there are gains to fuel economy it would be probably 5% or less. Barely noticeable.
I change my oil and filter at 5K. I know this is a little early but I don't have the cash for an oil analysis. I figure 5K is a safe number and much further along that 3K. How much is an oil analysis anyway and where can I get one?
If I remember correctly I concluded I would save about $15 per 5000 miles (which was and still is my scheduled oil change period). That's not a huge fuel economy improvement, but just enough to make Mobil 1 cheaper than the dino oil.
Again, there may have been other factors involved, but the mpg definitely changed. I think it was around 4% better.
"My experience with one vehicle has been that synthetic engine oil and other synthetic lubricants (ATF, differentials, transfer case, etc.) had no measaurable effect on fuel economy. I'm not making a general claim that synthetic engine oil never improves fuel economy ever, because I think in some cases it probably does. But it's just not as simple as some of the synthetic proponents would like folks to believe, and it bugs the crap out of me to see folks present it as such a black-and-white fact. It's not that clear-cut.
sdrd0q, I don't know how much of a fuel economy improvement you saw and I don't feel like getting out my calculator right now. But since synthetic oil costs roughly 2.5 to 5 times as much as conventional oil, you must have made a math error or seen a HUGE fuel economy improvement in order to conclude that the vehicle operates cheaeper on synthetic than on conventional using the same change interval. "
Two points, 1. it just shows that what bugs the crap out of folks is different! You are not bugged in the slightest about consuming 10 qts of oil in 20k miles and to me that would be reason to stand on the manufacturers desk and demand a new engine or whatever it took.
2. When clear cut information is given it is totally denied or pooh poohed!!? Hey if you dont want to use synthetic oil, I got to tell you that works for me!!
One of the reasons I own a stock that produces oil products is the simple fact that if this thread is any indication, synthetic users are totally out gunned!Or a small minority of users! Go Chevron Supreme !!!!
Lastly, I didnt notice any difference in the Corvette Z06 gas mileage due to synthetic oil use because the OEM factory fill was synthetic and I continue to use synthetic as per OEM owners manual.
Exactly what clear-cut information are you talking about? Are you still claiming that synthetic engine oil DEFINITELY results in improved fuel economy in EVERY vehicle? I simply can't stand hearing you make those definitive statements. Since my last post, another participant came forward and reported no measurable fuel economy change when using synthetic oil. It's the same old story with you. You fail to acknowledge that there may be some validity to the other side of the argument. I don't suffer this problem. I'm not on here as a total disbeliever in synthetic engine oil. I understand it has some advantages over conventional oil. But I seek to keep the discussions here reasonable and not just slanted and biased and oversimplified. At this point I'm not sure why I bother.
You don't seem to be hearing me about the oil consumption on the Isuzu Trooper. Isuzu, like most manufacturers, says up to a quart every 1000 miles is acceptable. They are not going to do anything about an engine that burns a quart every 2000 miles. And since I know this is common in these Trooper engines, I live with it. There is nothing I or any other Trooper owners can get Isuzu to do about it.
There is a lot of validity to the conventional oil market. Like I said I own the premier manufacturer of hydrocracked oil, stock Chevron. Does that sound like a lack of acknowledgement? I think you pretty much said it: you are a disbeliever in synthetic oil.If that is not a clear statement of bias, I don't know what is. Again, no problem with that at all. I say pay your money take your chances.
I hear you loud and clear, for me that it is a good reason not to get another ISUZU.
There are many advantages to synthetic oil, as I said 10 minutes ago. These advantages are worthwhile. I am neither disputing nor dismissing them. All I am talking about recently are the claims of improved fuel economy. I do not feel this is a clear-cut, across-the-board, take-it-to-the-bank fuel savings. I do feel that some vehicles exhibit improved fuel economy and some do not. The degree of improvement probably varies from model to model and even from specific vehicle to specific vehicle within the same model.
Improved fuel economy IS a significant thing. All I've been saying is that a vehicle owner is not guaranteed to see a certain percentage improvement, as you have been implying.
One thing I have learned on these discussion forums is that some people are more logical and open-minded in their contributions here. I am quite comfortable with where I stand in those 2 areas.
"Pay your money take your chances." You really think using conventional oil is that risky? That's silly.
I did not take you to say that you are a "TOTAL" disbeliever. And in fact I DID NOT SAY TOTAL did I? The fact of the matter is you are skeptical, hence your post of saying you used synthetic and got no measurable difference over conventional oil. The fact that you had no difference really could be due to a myriad of things: lead foot, etc etc. The fact that you have an "oil burner" or an oil consuming engine could indeed play a part! Since you are comfortable about the consumption, I would also have to be comfortable about your comfort. As I have stated my TLC four wheel drives' burn/consume oil at the rate of 1/4-1/2 qt per 14,000 miles. Is there a difference between your vehicles and mine? Absolutely! I have got to wonder however where is that 10 qts to my 1/4-1/2 going? You dont think consuming 10 qts per 20k is a variable that might affect or effect gas mileage? I certainly do!
At best you think that my results are an anomaly! The worst case is that you think what I am saying is BS.
In fact, I made NO such guarantee about synthetic oil but in fact told you personal anecdotal information and did the math!!?? And I qualified it didntI?So in effect you could duplicate it!!? I basically drive as normally with the synthetic as with the convention oil and see what really shakes out. Do I want synthetic to win out? Frankly no, if for no other reason than synthetic oil is more expensive up front!!
Do I think conventional oil is risky?? Heck no, especially if you change it on 3-5k oil change intervals !!! If you do 15k oil intervals I'd say YES !! What you think that I think is what is silly!!!!
I am not 'skeptical' of fuel economy savings with synthetic oil. I am simply not convinced that synthetic oil always improves a vehicle's fuel economy, other factors being equal, vs. conventional oil. I do not consider your results an anomaly.
Since the oil consumption rate in my vehicle did not change measurably between conventional and synthetic oil, I do not see how that could be a factor in preventing the vehicle from getting better fuel economy with the synthetic. If the consumption was there in both cases, it's not a variable, it's a constant.
This is off-topic, but the Trooper is pretty well-regarded by those in the know as an excellent TLC/Land Rover alternative at about half the price of those 2 stalwart SUVs. True, the Trooper is no Land Cruiser, but it's a well-built truck that does many things nearly as well as the LC does them.