What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

ruking1 · April 2017

I can't say that I blame you! They've been "legally" stealing monies earmarked for transportation for decades. It would be true insanity to expect it to change for these next YUGE batches of monies! While 12/20 cents for 69/79.5 cents sound like small "amounts", they are substantial fed & state tax % increases!!! This is already on top of state sales taxes approaching 10%. It's easy to calculate how yuge they are & will become, ever higher.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxes_in_the_United_States

fintail · April 2017

And to think, CA has nearly 40MM people (significantly more than Canada and much more than all of Scandinavia, just for kicks), and nearly every adult needs a car as most areas are underserved by transit. That's a lot of money for the taking.

ruking1 · April 2017

Indeed. The last car population figures that I have seen:29 M. @ $200 EXTRA registration per car = $ 5.8 B (pocket change)

So IF the avg yrly mileage is 15,000 miles @ 25 avg mpg, extra taxes (pocket change) are $72 each * 29 M = app a min of $ 2.1 B.

But you got to love it! With the now massive internet order shopping vendors & to consumer door delivery & pickups, many malls across the country are ...dying! Aka, car destinations.

Heavenly, is @ 654 in of snow! It only had 6 in of snow overnight

xwesx · April 2017

ruking1 said:
Heavenly, is @ 654 in of snow! It only had 6 in of snow overnight

Oh, is that all?! I don't know why you even bother reporting such minuscule amounts.

andres3 · April 2017

Isn't CA raising taxes on all fuels, not just diesel, but gas as well? Also, are they not raising registration fees to partially catch those EV driving free-loaders!

Wouldn't surprise me to hear CA is digging deeper into the pockets of people that choose not to comply with CA electric vehicle friendly policies.

gagrice · April 2017

You can bet if a significant number of EVs are on the roads, they will go to taxing by the mile. IF the average vehicle gets 25 MPG, and the tax is 75 cents. They can just add 3 cents a mile calculated from the Odometer each years at registration. A heavy EV will tear up the roads as much as any other vehicle the same weight.

xwesx · April 2017

It will not surprise me one bit if everyone goes to a tax-by-mile approach in the not-so-distant future. It will likely be a combination of vehicle class and/or axles that will determine the tax bracket. Similar to modern electric (and other) meters, all vehicles have a transmitter device on them that relays the cumulative mileage of the vehicle and submits it for tax processing.

The tricky thing might be the jurisdictional differences that can exist and how to factor that variability into the equation. And, if jurisdictional information is included, then how does that infringe upon privacy? One of many slippery slopes we encounter as we try more and more to "connect" our world.

andres3 · April 2017

xwesx said:
It will not surprise me one bit if everyone goes to a tax-by-mile approach in the not-so-distant future. It will likely be a combination of vehicle class and/or axles that will determine the tax bracket. Similar to modern electric (and other) meters, all vehicles have a transmitter device on them that relays the cumulative mileage of the vehicle and submits it for tax processing.

The tricky thing might be the jurisdictional differences that can exist and how to factor that variability into the equation. And, if jurisdictional information is included, then how does that infringe upon privacy? One of many slippery slopes we encounter as we try more and more to "connect" our world.

I see no need for the complicated mess of taxing by the mile, and how you enforce that. A a big flat charge for all EV buyers would be easier to implement. Maybe base it on vehicle weight.

gagrice · April 2017

I see about 276 VW Touareg TDI on the market. Most are 2016 models. I am tempted to trade for a new one if they offer the full buyback amount. Most are listed at MSRP. While a few are discounted a bunch. A Lux like mine would be mighty tempting at $16k under MSRP.

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/661577639/overview/

xwesx · April 2017

gagrice said:
I see about 276 VW Touareg TDI on the market. Most are 2016 models. I am tempted to trade for a new one if they offer the full buyback amount. Most are listed at MSRP. While a few are discounted a bunch. A Lux like mine would be mighty tempting at $16k under MSRP.

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/661577639/overview/

Yeah, no doubt! That's not a lot more than I paid for my 2014 Q7, but without the miles and history, and WITH that warranty? Yes, please....

ruking1 · April 2017

Other fish to fry? VW "diesel gate" hasn't killed any one. Yet they are being excoriated!? Takata airbags have killed 16 world wide & it looks like bankruptcy? Yet nobody seems to care, even as almost everybody has a Takata airbag in their car ! ?

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/takata-rescue-talks-extended-even-bankruptcy-risk-looms-160442813--sector.html

kyfdx · April 2017

I got an email from a VW dealer today, saying they had 2015 TDIs for sale with $5000 incentive and 0%/72 month financing.

ruking1 · April 2017

The diesel segment & particularly VW diesels & higher end diesels like Touaregs will almost be totally avoided. (like the plaque) Ergo, it will be a great segment, time terms & opportunity to shop! A $5k incentive with zero down & especially ZERO % loan is almost proof positive!

Indeed a ZERO % loan up to 72 mo IS a financial guarantee! When I bought the VW diesels new it was a no brainer deal sealer! IF then, it comes with anything close to a new car guarantee, what's not to like? Now given VW makes app 2% (or less) for a new car, (like Touareg) the prices are lower & profits can be substantially higher. Indeed taxes on the "used" as well as new car sales are higher than what the oem VW makes!! To wit, the states stand to make a second (3,4, etc., ) car tax far faster than it normally would have, due to "diesel gate". No, I'll probably should not be thinking this out loud, let alone saying this in print. Why? Why would I not want to be the only person looking at 20 or more local/national higher end diesel inventory alone ?

Longer term, (average car age of 12 years) circa 2027, it will be far from obsolete! I'm thinking the used TDI well by then re-gain its' used car premium over like-model gas.

The "new" platform-2014, compact) Porsche Macan is a case in point. The (midsize) Cayenne platform is older & longer in the tooth (2002). Yet unless one is an enthusiast or "car mag phile" one would be hard press to point out the (other than tech) upgrades.

ruking1 · April 2017

So hopefully we have explained the artificial fluctuations of ULSD prices vs gasoline RUG/PUG prices.

But environmental conservatives & the Irians agree, cut supply!? http://finance.yahoo.com/news/most-oil-producers-want-extension-output-cuts-iran-224331976--finance.html

Frack ON! ?

gagrice · April 2017

We also have the only refineries that can handle Canada's Tar Sands. With the go ahead of the XL pipeline that has made Canadians happy. Even Trudeau likes it. Or acts like he does.

gagrice · April 2017

Stopped by the GMC dealership today. Checked out the Canyon diesel crew cab. He remote started it while we were standing next to it and I did not hear it start. Very quiet even outside.
Pros: diesel engine, nice NAV entertainment center, Pricing good. Front seat legroom great. Seats in back high so you can see out. 7700 lb towing matches Touareg.
Cons: Not as plush as Touareg, backseat tight, very limited seat controls, 6 speed auto seems outdated? Any color leather in the Denali as long as it is black. I would put sheepskins in front anyway.

I wanted to like it. Wife was not impressed. Would like to take a decent test drive.

ruking1 · April 2017

For its "segment" I'm sure the back seat & legroom is neck & neck with Toyota, its segment "dominator". I'm also guessing that the Touaregs backseat & legoom is better than Toyotas': Highlander, Forerunner, LC, Sequoia, etc it's probably better tha the large car Avalon.

I'm thinking the same would be true with its' now outdated 6 speed A/T. Except for costs, as a Toyota subsiderary makes the stellar 8 speed A/T, it's hard to figure why Toyota hasn't gone to its own 8 speed A/T.

I'm sure that you would agree, the Japanese, Toyota subsiderary 8 speed AT works absolutely wonderfully in the German, VW Touareg TDI!

gagrice · April 2017

Love the 8 speed in the Touareg. What is confusing to me is GM offers an 8 speed with the V6 gas engine in both the Canyon/Colorado as standard. Not available with the 2.8L Duramax. Which tells me it is much lighter duty than the Touareg TDI transmission. I wonder if Toyota is using a light weight version as well?

Talked to my sales manager about trading my 2013 Touareg TDI on one of the 2016 Touareg TDIs floating around the country. No can do until VW gives them something that says they are willing to buy back our vehicles. I told him the few out there would likely be sold before that happens. Forcing me to buy some other diesel like the Jaguar F-Pace diesel. He said good choice, we own that dealership also.

ruking1 · April 2017

Fifteen 2017 Jaguar F Paces (TDI CUV's ) are in inventory @ the local Jaguar dealer. In contrast, only a couple of VW TDI CUV's @ most when I was in the market (2011/2012).

ruking1 · April 2017

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/chevrolet/colorado/2016/2016-chevrolet-colorado-z71-diesel-review-update-5/?ref=yfp

Chevrolet Colorado TDI 2.8 L

ruking1 · April 2017

gagrice said:
Love the 8 speed in the Touareg. What is confusing to me is GM offers an 8 speed with the V6 gas engine in both the Canyon/Colorado as standard. Not available with the 2.8L Duramax. Which tells me it is much lighter duty than the Touareg TDI transmission. I wonder if Toyota is using a light weight version as well?

Talked to my sales manager about trading my 2013 Touareg TDI on one of the 2016 Touareg TDIs floating around the country. No can do until VW gives them something that says they are willing to buy back our vehicles. I told him the few out there would likely be sold before that happens. Forcing me to buy some other diesel like the Jaguar F-Pace diesel. He said good choice, we own that dealership also.

I especially love the 8 speed A/T in the Touareg TDI coming down out of the mountains.(7,280 ft to zero ft) In select your gear shift mode, it really has a noticeable effect on the TDI's no fuel draw mpg. Use of the gearing also cuts brake use very significantly. There are other non-diesel handling, & safety benefits.

Thanks for the heads up guys, sometimes this talking software can be pretty weird!?

houdini1 · April 2017

Were you wearing a flight suit ?

gagrice · April 2017

Oxygen needed at that altitude also.... hehe

gagrice · April 2017

ruking1 said:
Fifteen 2017 Jaguar F Paces (TDI CUV's ) are in inventory @ the local Jaguar dealer. In contrast, only a couple of VW TDI CUV's @ most when I was in the market (2011/2012).

I sure wish MB had not dropped their 2.1L diesel. I would rather have the GLC/E 300d than the F-Pace. Driving cross country you don't see a Jag dealer in every town. Another reason I am considering the 2.8L GM PU truck. It is showing good mileage on Fuelly as did the tests you posted by Motor Trend. The 2018s should be out by the time VW gets around to me.

ruking1 · April 2017

We really didn't want or need the MB GLK 250 BT. Researching the 2.1 L BT peaked my interest. If VW does not offer an approved fix, the buyout is in the cards. So the mileage we would have put on the Touareg TDI, defaults to the MB GLK 250 BT.

It's clearly not as powerful & smaller. The mid sized TDI still is a better match to the Tahoe location.

houdini1 · April 2017

The 2018 Tiguan is all new and quite a bit larger than the old one...but no diesel...yet. Probably about the size of the F-Pace.

jpp75 · April 2017

gagrice said:
I see about 276 VW Touareg TDI on the market. Most are 2016 models. I am tempted to trade for a new one if they offer the full buyback amount. Most are listed at MSRP. While a few are discounted a bunch. A Lux like mine would be mighty tempting at $16k under MSRP.

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/661577639/overview/

I'd consider trading my V6 Touareg for one at this price. I hadn't realized they could sell them again.

gagrice · April 2017

The VW Atlas is a nice size if they just offered a beefy 4 cylinder diesel, they could keep me as a happy customer. It looks like VW is not interested in fighting with the EPA/CARB to sell vehicles. Size of the F-Pace is a bit of a turn-off for us. We haul lots of stuff on Vacation. Makes a Canyon diesel with Snugtop shell more appealing as the diesel SUVs disappear. The BMW X5 35d seems to be the only 2017 full size diesel SUV being sold in the USA. I do not like the hard seats. I may get used to them. Just not willing to spend $80k plus to find out.

ruking1 · April 2017

jpp5862 said:

gagrice said:
I see about 276 VW Touareg TDI on the market. Most are 2016 models. I am tempted to trade for a new one if they offer the full buyback amount. Most are listed at MSRP. While a few are discounted a bunch. A Lux like mine would be mighty tempting at $16k under MSRP.

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/661577639/overview/
I'd consider trading my V6 Touareg for one at this price. I hadn't realized they could sell them again.

How are you liking your gasser Touareg? Fuelly.com has the average range of 19 mpg to 20 mpg.

ruking1 · April 2017

7 crappy cars? (100% gassers) Where are those damned TDI's?

http://www.bankrate.com/loans/auto-loans/7-new-cars-that-people-most-regret-buying/?pid=pm_yahoo_stream43&ic_id=stream_32373582358&ak0n.pYGBTvCuwg--#slide=2

andres3 · April 2017

I think I've seen a few V8 Touregs? or was I dreaming?

Michaell · April 2017

andres3 said:
I think I've seen a few V8 Touregs? or was I dreaming?

The first few model years saw both V8 gas and V10 diesel Touareg? Not all that common.

xwesx · April 2017

That V10 TDI was pretty impressive.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmM-635RR6o

ruking1 · April 2017

If I did the math conversion correctly, that is 553 # ft of torque!! AW AW AW! I wish mine had that with 32/33 mpg or better!?

xwesx · April 2017

ruking1 said:
If I did the math conversion correctly, that is 553 # ft of torque!! AW AW AW! I wish mine had that with 32/33 mpg or better!?

Yes.... please?!

jpp75 · April 2017

ruking1 said:

jpp5862 said:

gagrice said:
I see about 276 VW Touareg TDI on the market. Most are 2016 models. I am tempted to trade for a new one if they offer the full buyback amount. Most are listed at MSRP. While a few are discounted a bunch. A Lux like mine would be mighty tempting at $16k under MSRP.

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/661577639/overview/
I'd consider trading my V6 Touareg for one at this price. I hadn't realized they could sell them again.
How are you liking your gasser Touareg? Fuelly.com has the average range of 19 mpg to 20 mpg.

I like it but some quality issues kind of sour the experience. I always preferred the diesel but even with the better mpg it delivers I couldn't justify the $4k extra they charged for it when new. The torque would help with the driving experience but at the end of the day it wasn't worth the premium they were charging.

ruking1 · April 2017

Those premiums have been "soft/porous" for a very long time.! That seems to have been true since 2003 (my involvement anyway). So I can understand how you applied the information you were working with.

The (2014) MB GLK 250 BT actually started off upfront, minus - 500 MSRP (cheaper) than the GLK 350 gasser.

After a "diesel information session" with a buddy of mine, he got a used MB diesel (a few years later) Way CHEAPER than the like model, condition gasser! I did a longer term reality check with him farther into his ownership. hHe's beyond happy camper. He ribs me about not being able to match the Touareg TDI's 32/33 mpg.

But then on the other hand, his sports 458# ft of torque vs 406 # ft.

MB might be "telegraphing" whether it wants to stay in US market diesels by MB's used diesel prices. So whatever set/s of information/s one work/s with, it's a great time for used/new diesels. There is a fair to a lot of roil in the diesel markets. The macro is there is a fair amount of roil in the overall (gasser) markets.

Then,... how does 50% less gas prices sound ? http://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-does-a-50-drop-in-gasoline-prices-sound/?ref=yfp

jpp75 · April 2017

ruking1 said:
Those premiums have been "soft/porous" for a very long time.! That seems to have been true since 2003 (my involvement anyway). So I can understand how you applied the information you were working with.

The (2014) MB GLK 250 BT actually started off upfront, minus - 500 MSRP (cheaper) than the GLK 350 gasser.

After a "diesel information session" with a buddy of mine, he got a used MB diesel (a few years later) Way CHEAPER than the like model, condition gasser! I did a longer term reality check with him farther into his ownership. hHe's beyond happy camper. He ribs me about not being able to match the Touareg TDI's 32/33 mpg. But then on the other hand, his sports 458# ft of torque vs 406 # ft.

MB might be "telegraphing" whether it wants to stay in US market diesels by MB's used diesel prices. So whatever set/s of information/s one work/s with, it's a great time for used/new diesels. There is a fair to a lot of roil in the diesel markets. The macro is there is a fair amount of roil in the overall (gasser) markets.

Then,... how does 50% less gas prices sound ? http://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-does-a-50-drop-in-gasoline-prices-sound/?ref=yfp

According to multiple VW dealers the premium on the TDI wasn't "soft/porous." I shopped dealers all over the state and never found anyone willing to discount enough to make up the difference. I had it mapped out on a spreadsheet and the payback was ~9 years based on my driving habits so it just didn't make sense.

I always admired MB for pricing diesels a little below the others but I just never cared for their vehicles.

ruking1 · April 2017

That better explains why you DIDNT get any (the VW/MB) diesels (CO state) . Again, that works for me! To each their own! It also sounds like CO would be a good state to sell a used diesel. Thanks for the information.

In this area, one TDI was from a local dealer, 5 miles up the highway. The other was from a local dealer down the highway.

Essentially, if I read the settlement correctly VW will pay me to have driven the Touareg TDI (vehicle now @ 61,500 miles), albeit 2.8 cents per mile "depreciation/ownership"

But yes, I agree with Judge Cox, that as the consumer, "little guy " that I should've been paid MORE to have this thing: 6 years.

gagrice · April 2017

My last two new vehicle experiences. October 2007 I bought a new top of the line Toyota Sequoia. It was loaded to the max. After much arm twisting I bought it for $47k cash. A full $10k under MSRP. Summer of 2013 we sold it to my wife's grand daughter for low BB of $18k. With only 36k miles on it. Plus a brand new set of Michelins. Yes I could have squeezed more in a private sale for sure. August 2013 we researched every diesel SUV on the market. Ended up going with the VW Touareg TDI. VW was in a dealing mood. $55k MSRP and $47k was the price. They financed 100% including TTL at 0%, a no brainer for us. We have put a lot more miles on this one than the Toyota. It is a superior vehicle in every way. I have no doubt if Dieselgate had not come along I could have gotten more out of it than would have been possible with the Toyota. The way it is, we may end up driving it for free over the 4-5 years we will have owned it. Just waiting on VW and the EPA/CARB bunch to decide. According to the court papers my original warranty will remain in effect until they fix the problem.

ruking1 · April 2017

Indeed your car dealings in " far" SoCA mirrors my NoCA experiences @ different times, years, etc. I did leave out that I also checked CA, NV, UT. WA, OR. dealerships. Both local CA VW dealers would so called "match deals" or come "close". My assumption (only) is most other CA dealerships would also. So according to our CO poster, in his local CO research, it seems CO is NOT a place to make a (real) good car deal, let alone a deal on a very tiny minority VW diesel? Since there are app 650,000 cars in Colorado versus 30 million cars in just California, the situation is not without logic.

In ANY (VW) dealership that I did the research, one (the real) no brainer was the ZERO down, ZERO % loan (for those that qualify) ! This is of course assuming that one was considering "A" vehicle with more than ZERO down, ZERO %, anyway.

Seamless to (us) car loan consumers, BUT essentially ( much more TMI) a zero % loan can cost the offering financing company up to 10% on the financial markets. Certainly, one conclusion that can be drawn: it costs the car consumer buying for CASH, up to ...10% & probably more. (for not being a YUGE finance company)

Gee, it's starting to make me wax nostalgic for that app 7% to 7.5% tax credit on a (new) p2009 VW Jetta TDI. That was also in addition to ZERO down (almost) zero % loan monies. TMI would be IRS 179 regulation/biz travel use.

Right now, (bought new) depreciation cpmd: the cost per mile for 160,000 miles will be approximately 2.76 cents to 3.5 cents.

ruking1 · April 2017

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/24/the-man-who-called-crudes-collapse-three-years-ago-now-sees-this.html?__source=yahoo|finance|headline|headline|story&par=yahoo&doc=104419041&yptr=yahoo

Bullish for diesels?

GM's responsible for 124 deaths (ignition bankruptcy) still will probably pay less than VW @ ZERO deaths. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/gm-rejected-u-supreme-court-133212658.html

andres3 · April 2017

ruking1 said:
http://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/24/the-man-who-called-crudes-collapse-three-years-ago-now-sees-this.html?__source=yahoo|finance|headline|headline|story&par=yahoo&doc=104419041&yptr=yahoo

Bullish for diesels?

GM's responsible for 124 deaths (ignition bankruptcy) still will probably pay less than VW @ ZERO deaths. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/gm-rejected-u-supreme-court-133212658.html

Well, New GM isn't responsible for the liabilities of the "old" GM, so no sense in awarding/suing the "old" GM as there is no equity left to collect.

I wish I could run up a huge debt and just change my name to "new name insert here"

houdini1 · April 2017

Supreme Court just changed all that. Claims can go forward now.

gagrice · April 2017

On that same illegal bankruptcy, I would like to see the Bond holders that were screwed get their day in court. The Indiana Teachers union lost millions in what was supposed to be secured bonds.

https://cei.org/blog/retirees-taxpayers-ripped-subsidize-uaw

andres3 · April 2017

gagrice said:
On that same illegal bankruptcy, I would like to see the Bond holders that were screwed get their day in court. The Indiana Teachers union lost millions in what was supposed to be secured bonds.

https://cei.org/blog/retirees-taxpayers-ripped-subsidize-uaw

What is good for GM is good for America, or so goes the pro-GM saying.

I suppose the UAW has more members than the Teacher's Union? Or would that be a bad assumption?

Ohio and Michigan paid Obama off with re-election. 2 States that were pro-bailout.

gagrice · April 2017

Just looking at Craigslist and up popped two new 2015 VW TDI vehicles. One Passat and a Sportswagen. I did not know the EPA gave VW the go ahead to sell any of the 2.0L TDI vehicles? Both say the ***Wait is Over***

https://palmsprings.craigslist.org/cto/6103902022.html

https://palmsprings.craigslist.org/cto/6103910828.html

Michaell · April 2017

gagrice said:
Just looking at Craigslist and up popped two new 2015 VW TDI vehicles. One Passat and a Sportswagen. I did not know the EPA gave VW the go ahead to sell any of the 2.0L TDI vehicles? Both say the ***Wait is Over***

https://palmsprings.craigslist.org/cto/6103902022.html

https://palmsprings.craigslist.org/cto/6103910828.html

Local dealers here in CO are advertising them as well.

$5000 cash from VW and 0% financing if you buy; $8500 lease cash for 24 month leases.

kyfdx · April 2017

They went up for sale on April 14th.

ruking1 · April 2017

https://www.yahoo.com/news/california-enacts-52-billion-fuel-tax-hike-road-214917343--business.html

$ 52 B fuel tax hike!!! One ripoff (12/.20 cents) diesel is 67% MORE per gal than RUG/PUG!!! Funny how the mat reflects the way better diesel mpg realities?!

Less auto dealer prime real estate locations I could be a trend? https://www.yahoo.com/news/california-enacts-52-billion-fuel-tax-hike-road-214917343--business.html

Slow diesel news day.

32/33 mpg 12 VW Touareg TDI, 37 mpg 14 MB GLK 250 BT, 61,000 miles normal, 45,000 miles normal.

I talked with a nurse who took the (2010) diesel VW buyback. He routinely got (a happy camper) 45 mpg. He was not pleased @ EPA/CARB killing CA diesels. He routinely goes 80 to 95 mph (opposite heavy traffic) on Highway 101.

Evidently, he could also do grade school math & proceeded to tell me the various points I've been making on this board, i.e., How does 25 mpg use LESS fuel than (like model) 45 mpg diesel ? PVF of 50 gas /50 diesel would consume less oil & burn less fuel, etc, etc.

What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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