What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

ruking1

So using XWESX reference to TBN, the Civic would do perfectly fine with just a less than 1 qt/L topping.

UOA's are far from "new". It really has small & niche market applications.

I got introduced to it 43 years ago for bombers, munitions & fighters.

andres3

Anyone want to chime in on topping off with a different synthetic oil when your car is a 1/2 or full quart low?

Am I being penny wise and pound foolish? It's not like it is an unapproved oil, but the car typically gets 5w-40 and I have about 3.5 extra quarts of 0w-40 mobil 1.

ruking1

No, you are not being penny wise pound foolish! As you have implied/stated, the oil meets your oem specifications, sans oil viscosity. I personally would use it with absolutely no issues.

xwesx

ruking1 said:

No, you are not being penny wise pound foolish! As you have implied/stated, the oil meets your oem specifications, sans oil viscosity. I personally would use it with absolutely no issues.

Agreed. And, as long as it is a 40-weight, it is fully compatible (albeit with a lower pour point). So, in your climate, 10w-40, 5w-40, and 0w-40 are all interchangeable.

Now, if you were using an extended OCI oil and you added a significant amount of a different brand, like a standard OCI oil of some type early in the life of that interval, you might want to consider an earlier change out. Extended life oils typically have a higher TBN to start so that they can buffer acids longer. But, if you add a standard use oil and plan to change oil after another 5-6K miles? No problem.

Otherwise, it is a total non-issue.

ruking1

Using 1 qt consumption per 2.5k/5 k per 100,000 miles, my 2001 Chevrolet as an example, uses another 40 -20 qts. VS pretty close to zero for the 3.0L TDI.

Costco, Folsom,CA $2.49 ULSD, $2.57, $2.87.

andres3

xwesx said:

ruking1 said:

No, you are not being penny wise pound foolish! As you have implied/stated, the oil meets your oem specifications, sans oil viscosity. I personally would use it with absolutely no issues.

Agreed. And, as long as it is a 40-weight, it is fully compatible (albeit with a lower pour point). So, in your climate, 10w-40, 5w-40, and 0w-40 are all interchangeable.

Now, if you were using an extended OCI oil and you added a significant amount of a different brand, like a standard OCI oil of some type early in the life of that interval, you might want to consider an earlier change out. Extended life oils typically have a higher TBN to start so that they can buffer acids longer. But, if you add a standard use oil and plan to change oil after another 5-6K miles? No problem.

Otherwise, it is a total non-issue.

What about mixing a 0W-40 with 5W-30 (One Audi dealer used to skimp out with 5W-30 back in the day due to San Diego's "mild climate.") I don't say "skimped" just because of the weight or viscosity difference, I say it because Castrol Syntec's 5W-30 wasn't approved by VW/Audi's higher spec. Most Audi manuals recommend use of 5-40, but that 5-30 and 0-40 are acceptable too.

xwesx

andres3 said:

What about mixing a 0W-40 with 5W-30 (One Audi dealer used to skimp out with 5W-30 back in the day due to San Diego's "mild climate.") I don't say "skimped" just because of the weight or viscosity difference, I say it because Castrol Syntec's 5W-30 wasn't approved by VW/Audi's higher spec. Most Audi manuals recommend use of 5-40, but that 5-30 and 0-40 are acceptable too.

In a pinch, any oil is better than no oil. I don't have any experience with mixing different viscosity oils, but my understanding is that it is not recommended because doing so can have deleterious effects on the lubricity properties of the oils.

In practice, I doubt that doing so will have any long-term drawbacks on the engine, though, personally, I would change the oil as soon as practical just to make sure of that.

I have used 5w-30 Mobil1 as make-up oil many a times due to its wide availability (I normally use 0w-30 Amsoil), and subsequent UOAs were none the wiser about it. So, if the oil and engine don't know the difference, that's good enough for me!

Usually, it's the additive packs that can really differ between brands and offerings. If those additives are not compatible with a given make/model of vehicle, it can cause unwanted issues with the emissions systems. So, if the vehicle says it needs a VW 504.7 spec oil, etc., I would want to limit my use of any oil that did not meet that spec regardless of its viscosity.

ruking1

Indeed, certain oil issues can get "into the weeds" so to speak, very, very quickly. What is also not helpful, there are a lot of myths about (diesel) oils.

Bullish for diesel? https://finance.yahoo.com/news/production-cuts-vs-innovation-why-230000989.html

Slow diesel news night ! The MB DEF AdBlue metering valve R/R seemed to have calm close by civilian concerns about diesel "smoke" (steam) panic.

ruking1

Cadillac diesels ? http://blog.caranddriver.com/cadillacs-diesel-program-is-moving-forward-unaffected-by-opel-sale/?ref=yfp

MB puts diesel certification on hold. http://www.autoblog.com/2017/05/10/daimler-drops-bid-to-sell-2017-mercedes-diesels-in-us/?ref=yfp

gagrice

ruking1 said:

Cadillac diesels ? http://blog.caranddriver.com/cadillacs-diesel-program-is-moving-forward-unaffected-by-opel-sale/?ref=yfp

MB puts diesel certification on hold. http://www.autoblog.com/2017/05/10/daimler-drops-bid-to-sell-2017-mercedes-diesels-in-us/?ref=yfp

That is narrowing down our diesel choices. Cadillac could use the boost as they are not big sellers in the USA. An Escalade with diesel would be worth looking at.

ruking1

Indeed based on 2014 274.8 M registered vehicles with 5 % diesels =13.74 M, & affected VW TDI's, there can be no doubt the choices are being winnowed. I've read only 8 TDI engines were/are certified for 2017.

I remain amazed @ the residual value of all four of my diesels! Low cents per miles driven cpmd: depreciation for 445,000 miles aren't hard to take!

andres3

I wonder if people with long memories would be dissuaded from buying a GM diesel again due to past transgressions. Indeed, some older people still have preconceptions about diesel (from prior experiences) that are far outdated.

Michaell

andres3 said:

I wonder if people with long memories would be dissuaded from buying a GM diesel again due to past transgressions. Indeed, some older people still have preconceptions about diesel (from prior experiences) that are far outdated.

The end of the line, after 57 years?

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2017/05/no-mercedes-benz-diesels-2017-maybe-ever/

fintail

It just might not be worth the cost of federalizing, if the authorities are going to make a big expensive show of it.

ruking1

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-05-10/with-mercedes-exit-u-s-diesel-car-market-shrinks-even-more?ref=yfp

2017 MY MB exit

gagrice

fintail said:

It just might not be worth the cost of federalizing, if the authorities are going to make a big expensive show of it.

Whatever the reason, they are off my list. I hate to see that 2.1L engine go away. Isn't that in your E car? Better hang onto it when the lease is up. I could get interested in a GLE 300d if any come on the used car market. They seem to hold their value quite well.

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/701117754/overview/

fintail

Yes, I have the 4cyl. It seems to be a gem of an engine. I wonder if this idiocy will help or harm resale values (the lease has a comically high residual). If worse comes to worse, it might be easier to find another on the open market, if MB plays hardball with values. MB and BMW should probably sue VAG for the damage they've done to the market segment.

A final run GLE 300d is going to be a rare car.

gagrice said:

Whatever the reason, they are off my list. I hate to see that 2.1L engine go away. Isn't that in your E car? Better hang onto it when the lease is up. I could get interested in a GLE 300d if any come on the used car market. They seem to hold their value quite well.

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/701117754/overview/

ruking1

The TDI's have NOT been dirty or loud for at least two decades.

To wit, the MB's, VW Mk III, IV gen (2003 VW Jetta TDI, going on 200,000 miles ) might hit "iconic". My 15 old TDI will pass the "STRICT" CARB CA "SMOG ONLY" test any day of the week. I'm good with the 48 to 62 mpg range & 50 mpg avg.

There seems to be a disconnect to lack of market care on the subject of "more power" , aka greater # ft of torque. YET to get (103) # ft more torque on any gasser, say a stock GM/Ford Arcadia/Explorer would require many & massive upgrades! http:// www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-chp-cars-20141227-story.html

The latest diesel "winnowing" has/is creating a lot of extra value in the used & new auto market place.

ruking1

gagrice said:

fintail said:

It just might not be worth the cost of federalizing, if the authorities are going to make a big expensive show of it.

Whatever the reason, they are off my list. I hate to see that 2.1L engine go away. Isn't that in your E car? Better hang onto it when the lease is up. I could get interested in a GLE 300d if any come on the used car market. They seem to hold their value quite well.

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/701117754/overview/

Off your cited site, I see there are 112 MB GLK 250 BT's on the market.

There are 15 MB GLE 300 d 's.

I'm sure they are on much slower downward $$'s glide paths than " like/ any model GLE's.

On the oil (/gas-diesel) side:http://money.cnn.com/2017/03/08/investing/record-us-oil-production-eia/?iid=EL

Mr_Shiftright

fintail said:

It just might not be worth the cost of federalizing, if the authorities are going to make a big expensive show of it.

Hard to justify in a 1% market share.

ruking1

Mr_Shiftright said:

fintail said:

It just might not be worth the cost of federalizing, if the authorities are going to make a big expensive show of it.

Hard to justify in a 1% market share.

Maybe & only IF it goes there !?

The diesel PVF is still @ 3% to 5% (13.74 M). The math would indicate even removal of 450,000 units ( things are still fluid) (put in ones' own numbers) = 4.84%. I suspect 3 to 5% diesel PVF figures are low.

MB would be destroying its own light truck (Sprinter) markets, if it stopped doing American market diesels. This is almost nonsensical, without a viable market leading substitute.

Indeed VW has (back doored this by way of another named) another company slated to serve the Am diesel light truck markets.

Mr_Shiftright

What is PVF? Sprinter sales in the U.S. can't be more than...what...12,000 a year at best right now, give or take? I know the van has met a lot of price resistance and they are a devil to work on.

ruking1

So if one is clearing the decks for GASSER vehicles, basically what they're saying (by default / de facto) using way MORE gas is preferable.

So it remains as I've said on this board more than once: advocate less gasoline use, while in the real world, using ...MORE!

So while I do not know what the 2.1 L BT engine gets in a Sprinter, in the GLK 250 BT, it gets 36/37 mpg vs 21/22 mpg in the like model gasser GLK 350. If the RATIO's are similar, the ADVOCATION is to use 71% more gas?

It's amazing folks are saying 21/22 mpg is less or better than 36/37 mpg!?

ruking1

PVF is short for passenger vehicle fleet. The point remains: the PVF, diesel are @ 3 to 5%. The 2016, 28,000 + MB Sprinter sales figures does not indicate/hides the % of diesels, so hard figures remain opaque. http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2012/06/mercedes-benz-sprinter-sales-figures.html

BUT, this one liner lifted from: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_Sprinter

. .." In North America, only the six cylinder 3.0 L turbodiesel and 4 cylinder 2.1 L turbo diesel engines are offered .".. may or may not be true.

Michaell

ruking1 said:

So if one is clearing the decks for GASSER vehicles, basically what they're saying (by default / de facto) using way MORE gas is preferable.

So it remains as I've said on this board more than once: advocate less gasoline use, while in the real world, using ...MORE!

So while I do not know what the 2.1 L BT engine gets in a Sprinter, in the GLK 250 BT, it gets 36/37 mpg vs 21/22 mpg in the like model gasser GLK 350. If the RATIO's are similar, the ADVOCATION is to use 71% more gas?

It's amazing folks are saying 21/22 mpg is less or better than 36/37 mpg!?

People aren't "saying" anything; they vote with their wallet.

For whatever reason, diesel is not favored by the majority of buyers.

ruking1

No not true!

95 % - 97 % gasser PVF ARE the (obvious) majority!!!! ??? You are glossing over what I have already said !?

I am/have been/remain totally fine with " it": 95% to 97% buying gassers. I'm good with more people buying WAY more oil, inn my example 71% more! Im sure the gasser, E85, hybrid, EV, inventory gluts are making & causing loads of "gas" so to speak! ?

So...let people (3 to 5%) who like/ want diesels buy them (vote THEIR wallets) I also like buying way less oil! l Pretty simple stuff! Yet, they (diesels) are being decimated out of existence!!

Michaell

ruking1 said:

Yet, they (diesels) are being decimated out of existence!!

And why is that? EPA making it harder to certify? Or, manufacturers not willing to invest in the certification process because the ROI is so low?

ruking1

Michaell said:

ruking1 said:

Yet, they (diesels) are being decimated out of existence!!

And why is that? EPA making it harder to certify? Or, manufacturers not willing to invest in the certification process because the ROI is so low?

All of the above & much much more! BUT, good morning felons ! VW 3.0 L TDI plan approved.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/volkswagen-buybacks-3-liter-diesel-201000230.html

Michaell

ruking1 said:

Michaell said:

ruking1 said:

Yet, they (diesels) are being decimated out of existence!!

And why is that? EPA making it harder to certify? Or, manufacturers not willing to invest in the certification process because the ROI is so low?

All of the above & much much more! BUT, good morning felons ! VW 3.0 L TDI plan approved.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/volkswagen-buybacks-3-liter-diesel-201000230.html

Do you plan to see your VW back? If so, what will you replace it with?

Same questions for you, @gagrice

ruking1

ruking1 said:

Michaell said:

ruking1 said:

Yet, they (diesels) are being decimated out of existence!!

And why is that? EPA making it harder to certify? Or, manufacturers not willing to invest in the certification process because the ROI is so low?

All of the above & much much more! BUT, good morning felons ! VW 3.0 L TDI plan approved.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/volkswagen-buybacks-3-liter-diesel-201000230.html

The short answers (2009 Jetta/2012 Touareg) are yes.

The longer answers are no! When the dust settles down & clears, another diesel whether new or used. I've heard (2nd hand) of a lemon Jaguar F Pace (gas). It was something about not being able to get an onboard computer to behave. I have also not heard about my wife's colleagues' Jaguar F Pace TDI.

Really, I've absolutely nothing against any other product, nor am I hard to please.

All it needs do:

1. have @ least 100 + more # ft of torque to meet or exceed diesels, exceeds being better
2. Meet or exceed fuel tank miles ranges
3. Meet to exceed mpg.
4. Lower cpmd: fuels
4. Meet or cost less $$'s than diesels
5. Lower cpmd: cents per mile driven,
6. have a lot less computers & other options that pad car prices
7. have way better residual value than diesels.
8. Be built as well to better than diesels.

gagrice

Michaell said:

ruking1 said:

Michaell said:

ruking1 said:

Yet, they (diesels) are being decimated out of existence!!

And why is that? EPA making it harder to certify? Or, manufacturers not willing to invest in the certification process because the ROI is so low?

All of the above & much much more! BUT, good morning felons ! VW 3.0 L TDI plan approved.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/volkswagen-buybacks-3-liter-diesel-201000230.html

Do you plan to see your VW back? If so, what will you replace it with?

Same questions for you, @gagrice

My current inclination is to sell back and buy a newer model. If we leave CA which I think is inevitable, it will depend on what dealers are in the town we move. I don't like going long distances to have my vehicle repaired. I also don't like vehicles no longer covered by warranty. My VW Touareg warranty ends in August. My present thinking is to take the money and trade my Nissan Frontier in on a GMC Canyon Denali diesel. Provided the buyback is in the $45k to $50k range VW posted.

ruking1

I'm totally spoiled by distances to good auto indy shops (1 to 2 miles) & almost every auto makes dealerships.(5 miles) with Toyota & Honda dealerships in town (2.5 miles)

gagrice

ruking1 said:

I'm totally spoiled by distances to good auto indy shops (1 to 2 miles) & almost every auto makes dealerships.(5 miles) with Toyota & Honda dealerships in town (2.5 miles)

The closest dealer to us is about 15 miles. 25 to my VW dealer. Too far for their shuttle to take us home. So we get to sit and wait. They did give us a free car when they had to keep the Touareg over night. I may just hold my nose and buy another GM product. Been 11 years since the 2006 GMC Sierra Hybrid POC.

ruking1

To me it remains totally mystifying why there are no to little solar collectors on modern day autos!? They should at worst be offered as options. They can be used to both run the growing myriad of sources: seen, unseen, heat or cool cabins or other spaces, charge on board batteries etc.Off the top of my head places where they could be integrated or mounted:

1. Outside roof
2. Intergraded in Sunroof
3. Intergrate roof panel
4. Roof rack mount solar collector option
5. Rear trunk covered area
6. Rear window
7. Rear passenger windows

Instead, ever more consumptive ways to give you either a dead battery or decrease its life span are added. @ the very least a solar charger can be used to recharge a battery to 100% or systems that can be shifted to electrical power, i.e., A/C.

Mr_Shiftright

My 3 diesel buddies are all selling or have sold, their VWs back. So far only one is buying VW again--a Golf Alltrak. Friend #2 did make an attempt to buy a "new" 2015 that had been "fixed" but was so turned off by the dealer and the price-gouging, he bailed on VW altogether, as of this post. Friend #3 bought an Crosstrek and seems pretty happy. I'm sure they'll all miss the MPG though.

Mr_Shiftright

Michaell said:

ruking1 said:

Yet, they (diesels) are being decimated out of existence!!

And why is that? EPA making it harder to certify? Or, manufacturers not willing to invest in the certification process because the ROI is so low?

The villain here is VW, not the gov'mint. Nobody wants to jump into this lake of fire anymore, now that VW has caused every regulatory microscope to turn on the diesel market and has soured 90% of potential first-time diesel buyers. I mean would you enter, say, the jeans market if Levi had just lied about their jeans causing skin cancer?

Hell no.

andres3

Mr_Shiftright said:

Michaell said:

ruking1 said:

Yet, they (diesels) are being decimated out of existence!!

And why is that? EPA making it harder to certify? Or, manufacturers not willing to invest in the certification process because the ROI is so low?

The villain here is VW, not the gov'mint. Nobody wants to jump into this lake of fire anymore, now that VW has caused every regulatory microscope to turn on the diesel market and has soured 90% of potential first-time diesel buyers. I mean would you enter, say, the jeans market if Levi had just lied about their jeans causing skin cancer?

Hell no.

Skin cancer? really? I think the ignition switch lies/cover-up would be closer to that analogy.

I'd compare the VW thing to if Levi's had used a coloring dye that had a few more g/L VOC than some ultra low standard CA comes up with. So say the standard is < 20 g/L VOC, Levi's used a product emitting 100 g/L VOC. Both are low and essentially harmless, sort of like dental X-rays in the modern age. Some offices make you get them every 6 months, others every 2 years. At the office that does it every 6 months you'll have 4X the radiation exposure, but will it ever affect you?

ruking1

Mr_Shiftright said:

Michaell said:

ruking1 said:

Yet, they (diesels) are being decimated out of existence!!

And why is that? EPA making it harder to certify? Or, manufacturers not willing to invest in the certification process because the ROI is so low?

The villain here is VW, not the gov'mint. Nobody wants to jump into this lake of fire anymore, now that VW has caused every regulatory microscope to turn on the diesel market and has soured 90% of potential first-time diesel buyers. I mean would you enter, say, the jeans market if Levi had just lied about their jeans causing skin cancer?

Hell no.

Hell YES ! Gov'mint IS to blame! All the regulatory agencies are hissy fitting, supremely pissed off because they ALL let themselves get gamed.

The gov'mint bears responsibility for sleeping on the job, when they said they were on defcon 1 alert! Use any colloquialism: got caught with their knickers around their ankles etc. Yippee with the extra money we get from all sources, promotions for all !

Nobody was killed in VW's "diesel gates". Plenty of folks get killed with any number of other non diesel, VW categories like:GM's ignition gate, & they still get a pass! Takata air bags, etc.

They are exponentially over reacting!

What would be you take, if for example during the 2004 Prius lying mpg brouhaha (60 H/ 50 mpg when only 40/43 posted) those same regulatory agencies reacted by fining Toyota $21 B ?? Then craft regulations to make it all but impossible $$ wise for hybrids to comply? Yet they reacted by easing EPA test standards for Prius hybrids to lie better? Pleazzzzzzzzzz!?

fintail

I have to agree with that opinion - the real issue isn't that VW cheated, but that VW tricked some very self-important "authority" types who take themselves very seriously. They'll dish out the fines to distract from how they were fooled, and to get a little revenge. VW was still in the wrong, of course (handling everything wrong IMO, they should have bribed their way into different standards, it works in this oligocracy - look at commercial vehicles) rather than cheated. Now the entire diesel market gets to suffer, and the opposition will continue to delude themselves about zero pollution EVs and hybrids.

xwesx

ruking1 said:

Michaell said:

ruking1 said:

Yet, they (diesels) are being decimated out of existence!!

And why is that? EPA making it harder to certify? Or, manufacturers not willing to invest in the certification process because the ROI is so low?

All of the above & much much more! BUT, good morning felons ! VW 3.0 L TDI plan approved.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/volkswagen-buybacks-3-liter-diesel-201000230.html

Oh, good. I was hoping that was going to actually get settled yesterday! I have an appointment in Anchorage for my Q7 next Friday, and I didn't want any hiccups with the bridge warranty.

ruking1

fintail said:

I have to agree with that opinion - the real issue isn't that VW cheated, but that VW tricked some very self-important "authority" types who take themselves very seriously. They'll dish out the fines to distract from how they were fooled, and to get a little revenge. VW was still in the wrong, of course (handling everything wrong IMO, they should have bribed their way into different standards, it works in this oligocracy - look at commercial vehicles) rather than cheated. Now the entire diesel market gets to suffer, and the opposition will continue to delude themselves about zero pollution EVs and hybrids.

Indeed! Another issue that gets totally glossed over are the YUGE DUPLICATE new electrical infrastructure & upgrades & improvements! One that is like swearing in church are the almost exponential increases in coal demands in switching to EV. Biggest cheer leader for coal is EV. !

In addition, we would use far less oil if the diesel PVF were higher like Europe! If Europe were to decrease their diesel PVF from greater than 50% to less: 5% diesel, 95% gas, Europe will require far more oil! So the consequences are clear to me given the goals: more oil consumption! j

gagrice

fintail said:

I have to agree with that opinion - the real issue isn't that VW cheated, but that VW tricked some very self-important "authority" types who take themselves very seriously. They'll dish out the fines to distract from how they were fooled, and to get a little revenge. VW was still in the wrong, of course (handling everything wrong IMO, they should have bribed their way into different standards, it works in this oligocracy - look at commercial vehicles) rather than cheated. Now the entire diesel market gets to suffer, and the opposition will continue to delude themselves about zero pollution EVs and hybrids.

There is no doubt the EPA is run by incompetent over paid civil rip off artists. Not happy with devastating the diesel vehicle business in the USA, they proceeded to pollute the streams and rivers in Colorado and New Mexico. Cutting the EPA in half would save the country from a lot of waste and pollution. The Feds seem to ignore the laws of diminishing returns. Bigger is better is the only mantra.

ruking1

The willful, wanton waste of MASSIVE amounts of clean water in Oroville, CA was literally approaching BIBLICAL flood levels !

Also somehow the (prior) decision to build a dam UPSTREAM of the city of Oroville, 200,000 persons from was made in lieu of the time tested understanding that "stuff" rolls downhill! Then, they have to show the now WORLD how stupid they are?

Nature ripped the "cover off the baseball" on the global warming drought pitch.

Really can't make this stuff up!! Trump's 40% EPA budget cut is almost farcical.

ruking1

Ram

houdini1

Mr_Shiftright said:

Michaell said:

ruking1 said:

Yet, they (diesels) are being decimated out of existence!!

And why is that? EPA making it harder to certify? Or, manufacturers not willing to invest in the certification process because the ROI is so low?

The villain here is VW, not the gov'mint. Nobody wants to jump into this lake of fire anymore, now that VW has caused every regulatory microscope to turn on the diesel market and has soured 90% of potential first-time diesel buyers. I mean would you enter, say, the jeans market if Levi had just lied about their jeans causing skin cancer?

Hell no.

Mr_Shiftright said:

Michaell said:

ruking1 said:

Yet, they (diesels) are being decimated out of existence!!

And why is that? EPA making it harder to certify? Or, manufacturers not willing to invest in the certification process because the ROI is so low?

The villain here is VW, not the gov'mint. Nobody wants to jump into this lake of fire anymore, now that VW has caused every regulatory microscope to turn on the diesel market and has soured 90% of potential first-time diesel buyers. I mean would you enter, say, the jeans market if Levi had just lied about their jeans causing skin cancer?

Hell no.

It sure seems that everyone who bought and owned a VW diesel came out pretty good to me. These VWs were not killing anyone per your comparison with Levi's causing cancer. More like Levi's lasting only 20 years instead of 25. I would love to find a good deal on an Audi diesel in my area.

ruking1

Projected cost per mile driven:depreciation/ownership posts @ $ .0198 cents (145,000 miles) (cpmd: D) 2009 VW Jetta TDI, from , TBD other misc $$'s.

VW (Bosch paying $1,500) will have paid me $.0562cents (Projected cost per mile driven:depreciation/ownership ) (65,000 miles) (cpmd: D) 2012 VW Touareg TDI, TBD other misc $$'s.

Both do not include ZERO down ZERO to almost ZERO %, 60 mo loans AFTER making ones best deal. As most folks will recognize, these were good deals. They allowed me to redeploy the monies for (5 years of) investment purposes.

Happy? You betcha!! On the other hand, I will have to sell back one of the best mid size CUV's on the market. The compact sedan has been an absolute trooper, sans the HPFP issue. ( high-pressure fuel pump) VW paid for the towing & fix, out of warranty!

fintail

Cutting staff would set bad precedent and allow further cuts. Not many people will jump at giving up those bennies and insane pensions.

I drove over 200 miles this morning, only 40.6 mpg due to some fast cruising (80 for long stretches) and long lights when off the highway. That made me think - how many lives are claimed via excess pollution created by negligently or poorly designed traffic controls? The greenies like to point fingers at diesels for such emotional drama, but nobody dares question other supposed engineers (as they are in the same peer group).

gagrice said:

There is no doubt the EPA is run by incompetent over paid civil rip off artists. Not happy with devastating the diesel vehicle business in the USA, they proceeded to pollute the streams and rivers in Colorado and New Mexico. Cutting the EPA in half would save the country from a lot of waste and pollution. The Feds seem to ignore the laws of diminishing returns. Bigger is better is the only mantra.

ruking1

40.6 mpg on your computer!? For contrast, what mpg was expected?

The WSJ & others publishes such estimates! It is literally in the $ B's . Time wasted is also in the $B's. When one adds in the $$ B's more in damages due to examples: such as windshield & pothole damages .....

My daughter's college roommate was killed going to a part time job, by a load that should have been secured BUT wasn't . She was studying to get into medical school.

Mr_Shiftright

fintail said:

I have to agree with that opinion - the real issue isn't that VW cheated, but that VW tricked some very self-important "authority" types who take themselves very seriously. They'll dish out the fines to distract from how they were fooled, and to get a little revenge. VW was still in the wrong, of course (handling everything wrong IMO, they should have bribed their way into different standards, it works in this oligocracy - look at commercial vehicles) rather than cheated. Now the entire diesel market gets to suffer, and the opposition will continue to delude themselves about zero pollution EVs and hybrids.

I don't see the logic of that argument--if VW didn't attempt to game the system, it wouldn't have turned out that way. You can see the slippery slope of such reasoning. The cop goes into the doughnut shop, a DUI whizzes past his empty cop car at 100 mph, and destroys a school bus full of orphans.

Very sad indeed, and BAD COP! But still, none of this would have happened had it not been for the drunk.

Enforcement of the law has its diminishing returns. You simply can't prevent every crime without enduring enormous cost.

fintail

I was hoping for more like 45, probably could have hit it if I didm't venture into the 80 mph world, and didn't get stuck at lights.

Chasing such a small part of the passenger vehicle fleet does seem like an unusual use of resources. But gotta justify those salaries somehow, I guess.

ruking1 said:

40.6 mpg on your computer!? For contrast, what mpg was expected?

The WSJ & others publishes such estimates! It is literally in the $ B's . Time wasted is also in the $B's. When one adds in the $$ B's more in damages due to examples: such as windshield & pothole damages .....

My daughter's college roommate was killed going to a part time job, by a load that should have been secured BUT wasn't . She was studying to get into medical school.