What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

andres3

An old CA proposition cetainly rewards homeowners with good timing. Property taxes are for the most part based on what you bought your house for, with small increases allowed over time, but severely limited. I could be paying 5X what my neighbor pays in property taxes simply because I bought recently, and they bought 25 years ago (even though our houses are the same value).

ruking1

Another would be the concept/mantra: SPEED KILLS.

Ever since the (Nixonian era? ) 55 mph speed limits on major & less populated highways, speeds have increased ! The fatality & accident rates instead of hitting catastrophic levels as predicted, are @ the lowest RATES since before the i55 mph major highways speed limits. Indeed at 75 to 80 miles an hour, the increase are a minimum of 36% to 45% FASTER ! .

I've personally have been in multiple lanes LA LA LAND traffic, where if one was not doing 85 mph, except in the slow or transition lanes, one was subject to being passed on the left & right lanes.

andres3

fintail said:

You might as well just say "google it". It doesn't work like that

I have a fear that dieselgate will be forgotten the same day diesel passenger car sales are ceased here. The Prius stuff, or even unintended acceleration, is ignored, as the authorities didn't crucify it, and media didn't run with it much. I think we have at least a couple years before people don't have snark about VW, and who knows what the feds might do.

I think the amount of leasing these days also depresses used values.

The Prius Unintended Acceleration stories were hurt when (locally) a guy with a long rap sheet of con games and scam artistry was the one that claimed his Prius was out of control while talking to 911 operators.

andres3

fintail said:

You might as well just say "google it". It doesn't work like that

I have a fear that dieselgate will be forgotten the same day diesel passenger car sales are ceased here. The Prius stuff, or even unintended acceleration, is ignored, as the authorities didn't crucify it, and media didn't run with it much. I think we have at least a couple years before people don't have snark about VW, and who knows what the feds might do.

I think the amount of leasing these days also depresses used values.

The Prius Unintended Acceleration stories were hurt when (locally) a guy with a long rap sheet of con games and scam artistry was the one that claimed his Prius was out of control while talking to 911 operators.

andres3

ruking1 said:

Another would be the concept/mantra: SPEED KILLS.

Ever since the (Nixonian era? ) 55 mph speed limits on major & less populated highways, speeds have increased ! The fatality & accident rates instead of hitting catastrophic levels as predicted, are @ the lowest RATES since before the i55 mph major highways speed limits. Indeed at 75 to 80 miles an hour, the increase are a minimum of 36% to 45% FASTER ! .

I've personally have been in multiple lanes LA LA LAND traffic, where if one was not doing 85 mph, except in the slow or transition lanes, one was subject to being passed on the left & right lanes.

Yes, you'd think all the rising speed limits with all the declining accident and fatality rates would get people to pay attention, but instead many bury their heads in the sand and believe the myths perpetuated decades ago.

The Autobahn blows our safety records away. It's a landslide, were not even close. We should be embarrassed like our dream-team embarrassed other basketball teams from other nations when they were first formed.

Now, there is more reasons for that then unlimited or high speed limits for that, but it doesn't seem to hurt them. You'd think we'd adopt there values faster when it comes to driving since it would save so many lives.

In my view, the "Speed Kills" crowd is immoral.

ruking1

Indeed this should not be construed (by the clueless) the "enemy" is claiming "SPEED " is never involved ! Those very same agencies (NHTSA & IIHS, etc.) will tell us you it's app 20 %. De facto, this means 80% of accidents & fatality occur @ slow or @ legal speeds & under!?

Damning vilification is normally assigned to the WRONG %

Or as said (paraphrase actually) in the movie "Casablanca" by Claude Rains " Round up the usual suspects "

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_Rains

fintail

Yes, the customer saw benefit, via mpg and the buyout stuff. But really, every corporation should exist to ensure customers benefit. Of course, as we both know, many do not. I am not sure VW would have been so generous without the feds breathing down their necks.

Hyunkia has a premature engine failure issue out there too, IIRC.

Aren't most hotel taxes absorbed by business travelers and tourists? Mostly stuff to subsidize crony capitalist money pit arenas and the like, right? The hotel owners themselves aren't carrying the load. Decreasing income only works if you are going to cut expenses.

By the time $15 is enacted in any meaningful way, it will be the inflation adjusted equivalent to what those in lucky demographics made when they were young. Using residential housing stock as short term rentals in markets with severe affordable housing issues won't be justified by cutting taxes.

andres3 said:

Certainly profits was probably the main motivator, but at the same time, they did so in a manner that didn't hurt their customers, at least in the end, it seems most customers came out OK or better.

I find Kia/Hyundai lying about fuel economy or HP figures to be much more egregious a violation, as they are hurting their customer by promising benefits that the product doesn't live up to. It seems to me VW did consumers a favor, in a way. Although it was a bubble that burst when the cheat was found out.

I think un-taxing hotels would achieve the same effect as taxing homeowners for short-term rentals. The same way I think lowering prices, lowering inflation or having deflation, would achieve what $15/hour minimum wage supporters want.

Michaell

andres3 said:

An old CA proposition cetainly rewards homeowners with good timing. Property taxes are for the most part based on what you bought your house for, with small increases allowed over time, but severely limited. I could be paying 5X what my neighbor pays in property taxes simply because I bought recently, and they bought 25 years ago (even though our houses are the same value).

Which is why my mom and dad, who bought their house in SoCal new in 1968, never sold it after Prop 13 passed. My dad was against it, as he was a firefighter and there were all sorts of concerns that PD and FD ranks would be culled due to lack of budget.

fintail

Saw a diesel stinker today, an older Chevy dually truck, probably emitting fumes like 100000 cheater VWs idling together. It's OK though, as it is within the rules. VW should have lobbied harder. Saw a motorcycle that also had a strong smell around it, also no doubt completely on the up and up. You get what you pay for.

ruking1

This is probably off topic, but might be one explaination why the CUV may have become WAY more popular, over sedans.

..."Since then, the four-door people mover has become the country's bestselling small SUV and has been a source of continued sales strength for Honda as car owners gravitate more toward SUVs over sedans."...
https://www.dallasnews.com/business/autos/2017/05/18/hondas-cr-v-gets-turbocharge?ref=yfp

Still better joy would be a Honda CUV with diesels 369# ft of torque & 36 mpg minimum

Go US market shale! https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-05-19/u-s-shale-roars-back-at-opec?ref=yfp

ruking1

Michaell said:

andres3 said:

An old CA proposition cetainly rewards homeowners with good timing. Property taxes are for the most part based on what you bought your house for, with small increases allowed over time, but severely limited. I could be paying 5X what my neighbor pays in property taxes simply because I bought recently, and they bought 25 years ago (even though our houses are the same value).

Which is why my mom and dad, who bought their house in SoCal new in 1968, never sold it after Prop 13 passed. My dad was against it, as he was a firefighter and there were all sorts of concerns that PD and FD ranks would be culled due to lack of budget.

The central issues are actually quite very complicated. Indeed it is VERY rare to live in one's house 30 years plus, & even RARER i.e.bought for $30,000, can now sell for $1,300,000 But the average mortgage appears currently to be app 8 years & less. In an increasingly mobile society, I suspect those figures will continue to decrease.

Just on the increase in prices alone, here anyway (triggering massive tax % increases also) , I would hate to have to be moved for employer job purposes ! So for example, in my case when I was in the service of the country 43 years to 38 years ago) I was moved 5 times in five years . This did not include temporary duty for up to months @ a time. Nor did it include being called up having 4 hours to be ready to ship out for up to 6 months @ a calling.

Michaell

ruking1 said:

Michaell said:

andres3 said:

An old CA proposition cetainly rewards homeowners with good timing. Property taxes are for the most part based on what you bought your house for, with small increases allowed over time, but severely limited. I could be paying 5X what my neighbor pays in property taxes simply because I bought recently, and they bought 25 years ago (even though our houses are the same value).

Which is why my mom and dad, who bought their house in SoCal new in 1968, never sold it after Prop 13 passed. My dad was against it, as he was a firefighter and there were all sorts of concerns that PD and FD ranks would be culled due to lack of budget.

The central issues are actually quite very complicated. Indeed it is VERY rare to live in ones house 30 years plus, & even RARER i.e.bought for $30,000, can now sell for $1,300,000 But the average mortgage appears currently to be app 8 years & less. In an increasingly mobile society, I suspect those figures will continue to decrease.

Just on the increase in prices alone, here anyway (triggering massive tax % increases also) , I would hate to have to be moved for employer job purposes ! So for example, in my case when I was in the service of the country, I was moved 5 times in five years . This did not include temporary duty for up to months @ a time. Nor did it include being called up having 4 hours to be ready to ship out for up to 6 months @ a calling.

Folks bought their house for $23K, now worth $450-500K.

Yes, today's society is much more mobile, I'll agree with that. Job hopping and relocating to different parts of the country seem to be more prevalent.

xwesx

Michaell said:

Folks bought their house for $23K, now worth $450-500K.

Yes, today's society is much more mobile, I'll agree with that. Job hopping and relocating to different parts of the country seem to be more prevalent.

That's not too shabby! 23K in '68 is probably around $169K today, so that's still significant appreciation.

xwesx

After a half-decade of no payments on my house/property, I would really hate to have a mortgage again.

Michaell

xwesx said:

Michaell said:

Folks bought their house for $23K, now worth $450-500K.

Yes, today's society is much more mobile, I'll agree with that. Job hopping and relocating to different parts of the country seem to be more prevalent.

That's not too shabby! 23K in '68 is probably around $169K today, so that's still significant appreciation.

My inflation calculator shows $161K today - pretty good guess.

The house had approached $500K a couple of times over the years, what with the various real estate bubbles in CA.

My folks paid off the mortgage a few years early, but my mom has a reverse mortgage (well, a line of credit) on it now. I think the balance is right around $100K.

andres3

xwesx said:

After a half-decade of no payments on my house/property, I would really hate to have a mortgage again.

But the tax deduction is nice. Of course, no debt is the best debt.

xwesx

andres3 said:

xwesx said:

After a half-decade of no payments on my house/property, I would really hate to have a mortgage again.

But the tax deduction is nice. Of course, no debt is the best debt.

I almost hate to admit this, but I have never taken anything but the standard deduction. None of my eligible deductions have ever even come close to exceeding it.

Even when we had a mortgage on the property, the amount wasn't huge, and we paid it off quickly enough that the total annual interest portion was rather minuscule (in comparison to a typical mortgage).

Right now, our debt is limited to the Q7. Still takes an adjustment on having a payment, but the short loan we had on the Passat helped me ease into this one a bit.

andres3

Didn't some States allow Electric and/or hybrid vehicles in the HOV lanes even if they only had one driver with no other passengers? Wonder if they'd do the same for clean-diesel cars. That could be a benefit that would get more takers. Maybe even a tax rebate similar to a Tesla S.

ruking1

Increasingly, the used car markets (33 M) are almost 2 X's greater than new car markets (17 M) Indeed EV's on the USED market are an abysmal part of the used market, despite great prices & low inventory)

Mr_Shiftright

So, are we going off topic because we're taking a breather (no pun intended) from diesels?

kyfdx

xwesx said:

andres3 said:

xwesx said:

After a half-decade of no payments on my house/property, I would really hate to have a mortgage again.

But the tax deduction is nice. Of course, no debt is the best debt.

I almost hate to admit this, but I have never taken anything but the standard deduction. None of my eligible deductions have ever even come close to exceeding it.

Even when we had a mortgage on the property, the amount wasn't huge, and we paid it off quickly enough that the total annual interest portion was rather minuscule (in comparison to a typical mortgage).

Right now, our debt is limited to the Q7. Still takes an adjustment on having a payment, but the short loan we had on the Passat helped me ease into this one a bit.

If you lived in a state with high taxes, you wouldn't have any problem itemizing. I'm guessing property taxes are pretty low in Alaska, if they can give their citizens a payment, each year?

xwesx

I don't know.  They don't feel low to me!   Our annual "rent" is about 2500 on our primary property, which is on about 100k net value.  No personal property tax. And, income tax hasn't been implemented yet, though it will be soon. 

ruking1

Mr_Shiftright said:

So, are we going off topic because we're taking a breather (no pun intended) from diesels?

The majorly 95% to 97% likes its (law breaking, environmental conservatives,... not mine) N0X levels from gasoline cars! LA LA Land County (agency is located in Diamond Bar, CA) has in effect certified it has no (ZERO) path to ( real world & even theoretical) N0X compliance, despite the biggest & growing EV PVF! Of course, they would not say it that way in polite company!

gagrice

Visiting with our realtor friend here in Hilo. I asked if the VOG that dumps on Kona from time to time has hurt Kona real estate sales. He said not at all. Most buyers are from CA and used to crappy air. Smells like Los Angeles.

ruking1

Too funny! Most "environmental conservatives" fail utterly to see the irony!

That is also true in the waters off Santa Barbara, CA.

ruking1

Slow diesel news day !

VW can ( re) sell 84,390 2.0 TDI's, of 475,474 bought back= 391,084.
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2017/05/regulator-approved-fix-for-another-84000-diesels-could-save-vw-some-money/?ref=yfp

Hopefully a lot more TDI's get back on the streets!

IF there ever was a useless application suited/in need for E (electric) is (F1A E electric) car racing! This one I'm watching is on the streets of Paris E Prix. 1.93 km La Valides?

The most interesting visual changes are to the aero dynamics, (sans ice engine), I'm sure the car has WAY more (usable) torque, with way faster "spooling"

The most audible changes are WAY dialed down noises due to NO high rev/pitched whiny ice gas engines.

xwesx

Interesting. That approval looks to cover my Passat as well. I wonder when we'll start seeing them on the block?

ruking1

Yes, I also think it will be interesting to see what % (of the 84,390) will be diesel " buy backs" after their diesels are have been bought back by VW? There will be those who will be totally frustrated by VW & skip Its products all together. Or those who would wait to see if VW will get back into diesels. Or those who will buy available VW products.

gagrice

I would entertain buying a new fixed Touareg TDI if they offered enough trade-in. Time is running out to fix the 2013 and newer TDI models.

ruking1

..."Longer draining intervals
• Ensures an exceptional engine durability and satisfies the plans of maintenance of the most demanding manufacturers by allowing extra long draining intervals (30000 to 50000 kms), thanks to an exceptional oxidation resistance"...

http://www.lubadmin.com/upload/produit/FichePDF/lang_1/5833.pdf

This (niche in US markets, synthetic) Total Quartz INEO 5W30 VW 504./507.00 specification oil was updated in 2004 (@ least 13 years)

..." Specifications Standard ACEA A3/B4- 2004"...

So this is OLD news. Mileage wise for me over (4 diesels) 450,000 miles/30,000 miles = 15-16 OCI's.

Per Siri, 50,000 kms = 31,069 miles.

So as one can see, I've probably been a little weak @ the knees going only 30,000 miles

Advantage VW & diesels!

Get em while supplies last? http://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/mark-phelan/2017/05/21/vw-diesel-sales/331844001/?ref=yfp

But then one got advanced notice of this stuff first on this topic site!

Having said that, I've not been a gasser VW engine fan.

xwesx

gagrice said:

I would entertain buying a new fixed Touareg TDI if they offered enough trade-in. Time is running out to fix the 2013 and newer TDI models.

It's not running out fast enough! They have until close to the end of the year to get an approved fix before they must do an extension (one month), and they can do three of those. That seems a long time from now!

ruking1

For sure, but the separate 3.0 L engine court approvals came very much later than the 2.0 L approvals. I'm also thinking they had massive logistical issues for the 2.0 L engine fix & dealer buy backs, in addition to the hurry up to wait scenarios. So, hopefully there has been learning in & about the process.

Slow diesel in news day!

37 mpg (36.78 mph),

MB GLK 250 BT (559 miles/15.2 gal=) in normal grueling commute traffic. (one of WORST in the nation)

A lot of "space cushion" modulation is done in anticipation & right foot throttle control. (coasting to deceleration) Secondarily, by shift paddling. Thirdly, when all else fails, energy shaved off with braking. The real secret here: deploy the "no fuel draw" advantage. The A/T is plenty robust.

I know this flies in the face of that gasser transmission old wives tale "brakes" (pads,rotors) are cheaper than a new A/T. It saves on brakes also.

Now I can't tell one how much no fuel draw saves, or adds in mpg & brake systems Savings. BUT coming out of South Lake Tahoe down grade, I've lost count of the cars I've followed that hit the brakes easily 20 plus times to our one. Normally, I'm using the brakes that one or two times, because the front man has braked far too aggressively. This is very unsafe as it leads to gassers packing up. The next passing section ( in 1,2,3,4 miles) can't come fast enough! Naturally, far too many both # & % of them want to continue to use the passing lane. I've also lost track of those passed on the right/SLOW lanes.

xwesx

ruking1 said:

I know this flies in the face of that gasser transmission old wives tale "brakes" (pads,rotors) are cheaper than a new A/T. It saves on brakes also.

Now I can't tell one how much it saves, or adds in mileage. BUT coming out of South Lake Tahoe down grade, I've lost count of the cars I've followed that hit the brakes easily 20 plus times to our one. Normally, I'm using the brakes that one or two times because the front man has braked far too aggressively. This is very unsafe as it leads to gassers packing up. The next passing section ( in 1,2,3,4 miles) can't come fast enough!

Yeah, I year you on that. I am a big fan of using brakes when necessary, and modulating speeds in other ways to minimize when that occurs. I don't think I have quite managed to get the hang of this eight-speed transmission, though. However, I do find that a light tap on the brakes leads the vehicle to hold downhill speed much better than just letting it go down the hill with no input at all.

I probably averaged better than 29 mpg on the Q7 on my trip down to Anchorage this past Friday (according to the on-board economy reading). I don't know for sure based on post-fill caculations, because the trip only takes a little over a half-tank of fuel. I did not isolate usage on the trip (just left when I was ready, but with more than 200 miles on the meter already, and then filled up in Anchorage before coming home).

ruking1

Indeed the short answer for the 8 speed A/T downgrade, downshift a minimum of 2 X to 3. The system will lock you out of /delay a too aggressive down shift.

TMI

The controls are drive by wire. So things are computer controlled. Brakes are brake fluid systems controlled first. Other more TMI braking can be verified in the owners & technical manuals.

xwesx

Great info; thanks!

andres3

You mean "I was saving the brakes" won't help you if you get pulled over for speeding on the downhill grade? That's the best way to avoid using brakes, just let the speedometer climb.

ruking1

Lol! Yes & no! I'm good for 20 mph- 30 mph over for most curves. More in the straights up grade. There are some that even the limits are dicey. I've been so many times that it's memorized.

Highway 50 (South Lake Tahoe, CA) mountain up/ down grades are really not the routes to test ones lateral G limits!! Aka, there are not a lot of turnouts & sides of the roads to recover, that is unless one knows exactly where they are!? This is not to mention all that separated from oncoming traffic are double yellow lines! There are myriads of other natural & unnatural obstacles that may or may not appear.

The oddest one was a boulder the size of a VW Beetle trying to cross the 2 lane road, (downhill) landing on the double yellow lines in the middle of the road.

ruking1

Higher mpg lowers fuel needs!? Now this took true genius to figure out! http://www.upi.com/Energy-News/2017/05/23/US-gasoline-needs-lower-on-improved-fuel-economy/2901495543114/?ref=yfp

The greater true barrel of oil BUSTERS, they leave out : 1. ratio of gasoline 19 gals to ULSD 13 gals per barrel 2. 40% gasoline /60% diesel PVF. 3. Diesel gets a minimum of 33% better mpg, like model, i.e.22 mpg gas/36 mpg diesel. .

The laws, rules & regulations are rigged for more demand even as they call for....LESS! Getting rid of diesel is a step toward greater consumption!

After $21 B + plus fines it's more than a "cheaters" punishment. https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2017/05/22/volkswagen-selling-diesel-cars----but-not-long/102010910/?ref=yfp

It appears the buybacks (85%, etc) were levied (by the regulatory's agencies) as part of the plan not to be seen ordering "a taking", aka, exercising "eminent domain ".

I had mentioned early on in the VW "diesel-gate" that if the diesel smog (NON) renewal were used to deny, it meets the concept of taking & NOT offering FMV! The state/s was/were in no way going to offer FMV, so they muscled VW.

The curiosity is in why is this worth a less than 2.5% gas, gas hybrid, EV US market share? . If I did my math correctly, this is MINUS $5,000 per car for one year! Over 10 years, that is $500 a car. Now Volkswagen barely makes 2% a car? An example would be $25,000 * 2%=$500. Perhaps some national/international tax/CPA types can chime in.

So far, over 2 VW TDI's (bought new, 09 Jetta/12 Touareg) and 210,000 miles, cost per mile driven : depreciation/ ownership = .0085952 cents per mile driven projected: not including TBD $$'s. additional penalties/credits affected by "Diesel gate".

ruking1

ruking1 said:

Indeed the short answer for the 8 speed A/T downgrade, downshift a minimum of 2 X to 3. The system will lock you out of /delay a too aggressive down shift.

TMI

The controls are drive by wire. So things are computer controlled. Brakes are brake fluid systems controlled first. Other more TMI braking can be verified in the owners & technical manuals.

To keep from getting misconstrued, by those predisposed to doing that: the action (short answer) will be described for clarity.

If for example, one is in 8 speed : 1. downshift=7 speed, 2.downshift=6 speed, 3.downshift= 5 speed, etc.

So in my coming down ( heading to SLT, CA) from the summit (7,380 ft) I wind up using 3rd gear. The system does not let me use 2nd until rpm go lower. I use brakes VERY seldom. If one falls off the wrong side of the road, the drop can be as deep as 1,000 ft.

andres3

ruking1 said:

ruking1 said:

Indeed the short answer for the 8 speed A/T downgrade, downshift a minimum of 2 X to 3. The system will lock you out of /delay a too aggressive down shift.

TMI

The controls are drive by wire. So things are computer controlled. Brakes are brake fluid systems controlled first. Other more TMI braking can be verified in the owners & technical manuals.

To keep from getting misconstrued, by those predisposed to doing that: the action (short answer) will be described for clarity.

If for example, one is in 8 speed : 1. downshift=7 speed, 2.downshift=6 speed, 3.downshift= 5 speed, etc.

So in my coming down ( heading to SLT, CA) from the summit (7,380 ft) I wind up using 3rd gear. The system does not let me use 2nd until rpm go lower. I use brakes VERY seldom. If one falls off the wrong side of the road, the drop can be as deep as 1,000 ft.

You need to try driving the unpaved 1-lane "death road" in Bolivia, South America.

ruking1

Ah no! They need to pony up for real roads, 3 or more whining Brits!?
https://youtu.be/WXLxszv9eCM


Here's the Highway 50 upgrade: Placerville, CA to South Lake Tahoe, CA @ theoretical 100 + mph, 62 miles in 6 min.

https://youtu.be/DyX7SZMrhs4

Around Lake Tahoe, CA/NV

https://youtu.be/fDAh0AxoU-M

ruking1

So the site can see the REVERSE route (Highway 50, South Lake Tahoe to (but 40 miles past) Placerville, CA. where the 49 mpg plus, COMPUTER are posted! The R/T averages are normally between 36-38 mpg. The CHP rides are usually Ford Explorers.(hot rodded)

Meanwhile one can project the real behind the scenes action by this article. https://www.yahoo.com/news/ford-shakeup-underscores-detroits-tech-dilemmas-164609790.html

All roads SEEM to lead to Silicon Valley, CA. Utter survival might be one issue. It also seems to have the distinct advantage of attracting loads of the scarce required engineering talent.

TESLA (market value is bigger than Ford) is located in the area! VW, BMW, GM, Ford, Microsoft, to name a few have presences.

Detroit, MI seems to be @ least 15 to 20 years too early to even be in the running!? In engineering terms, this can be like 3/5 lifetimes! There are loads more TMI.

I've been following PBS's "This Old House" Detroit This critical logistic (homes) while full of hopeful potential, seems even further behind! $ wise, no doubt probably far cheaper than in Silicon Valley, CA & surrounding areas. (100 miles radius)

ruking1

https://youtu.be/ck01KhuQYmE

Is "fossilized" fuel a lie, for the long time purpose of keeping prices as high as possible!?

ruking1

Used car prices bonanzas coming off leases? I'm guessing it's a much smaller % of diesels coming off leases!? This might tend to cause used TDI's price rise?

http://www.seattletimes.com/business/flood-of-off-lease-used-cars-push-prices-down-upend-market/?ref=yfp

Upshot ??'S: might be: 2018 MY slow down (< than 17.5 M)? Softer prices? More used cars to market (> than 33 M ) ? Softer prices? Will current preferences appreciably alter large car to light truck PVF, > than 75% ?

Affected VW diesel prices have already been frozen @ KBB Sep 2015 prices for 2015,2016,2017,2018,2019 execution.

Advantage diesel!? Keep in mind ULSD (to NON ULSD, i.e.does not need to be refined out, (the sulfur molecule being the major pollution causing "culprit") can be molecularly MADE: literally at the fuels point of sale, POS.!

So the wrong product of the barrel of oil ratio is being slated for exterminated. The real issue remains...that our modern society is built on & with cutting edge to ubiquitous petroleum products......!!!

The environmental conservatives might think they are saving the world, BUT the world wants to be...US!!!

gagrice

Looks like the leeches at the EPA/CARB are now after GM.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/general-motors/2017/05/25/gm-diesel-lawsuit/102144038/

ruking1

Lol! Trumping the Germans? This will be a very entertaining eight years ! ( 2 terms * 4 yrs)

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-05-26/trump-blasts-german-carmakers-u-s-sales-and-threatens-barriers?utm_source=yahoo&utm_medium=bd&utm_campaign=headline&cmpId=yhoo.headline&yptr=yahoo&ref=yfp

fintail

Just when you think the desiccated grapefruit can't be any more boorish or less correct.

And coming from someone who owns numerous German cars, himself. I don't think Lada has diesel models though

ruking1

The banality will pass!

Lara's? Not in this country, that I know of anyway!

Given the early 70's to late 70's MB diesels still being maintained by Indy dealers (around here) . Mine (my brood) could still be here, in say ... 2060? That ought to be long enough to drive any environmental conservative, nuts!? Some of the best MB indy shops are in Berkeley & Oakland, CA! Gotta love the irony! $ 79.36 per year in taxes will be too much!

The TESLA plant up the highway is "another chalk board screeching"?

fintail

It's just a matter of time anyway

Old MB diesels will last as long as one wants to maintain them. Do the engine work, and everything else should hold up in a mild climate. They'll have to be outlawed by the militant NIMBY greenies to get them off the road - they aren't expiring naturally. I see 30+ year old MB diesels still on the road every day.

ruking1

Well yes! Diesels have always been a niche market! I'm sure there will come a time of diesel resurgence !

As long as they get 19 gal gasoline from a barrel of oil refining, diesel will be the 13 gal product!! Also, gas hybrids have failed to step up in the large car to light trucks area, where it has been acknowledged to be more useful than the small car area.

A good example are the Toyota Highlander/Highlander Hybrid. If the Highlander Hybrid did post 36 mpg, vs 19-21 mpg & have a minimum of 100# ft more torque to meet or exceed 369# ft, a diesel Highlander discussion would probably be moot.