Synthetic motor oil

micweb · June 2005

Thanks for the correction on the Mobil 1 Extended Performance. The general blurb still makes the older Mobil 1 sound more durable ("harshest conditions") but of course if they say EP 15-50 is suitable for weekend racers I take them at their word.

Oddly enough there is an "old" formula 5-20, but not an EP formula 5-20....

div2 · June 2005

Well, the way the PDS is laid out makes it easy to miss something. I'm interested to see how the new 15W-50 performs in the long term.

micweb · June 2005

No, I believe the 15W-50 is definitely suitable for weekend racing, because that's what it's marketed for and I trust Mobil when they are clear in their statements.

My doubts have to do with 5-30 Extended vs. 5-30 non-Extended formulas. It's clear that the Extended formula will last longer. What's not clear is which is "tougher" during 5,000 mile runs. Maybe for all practical purposes they are the same, for such a shorter oil change interval!

Something weird is going on, not necessarily with the oil, but with the additive packs, because non-Extended Mobil 1 5-30 is GF4, while Extended 5-30 is not GF4.

So in a way Extended might be better, because it has the old style, tougher additive pack, but on the other hand, is there less actual lubricant in the Extended version (because there is 36% or so more additives than in the non-Extended)?

To make things more confusing, did they reduce the volume of additives in their regular formula, or increase it in the Extended formula? Right now Mobil 1's website leaves me confused. I don't think it's necessarily a marketing ploy, but something more complicated in response to the SM/GF3 standards change....

micweb · June 2005

Here is some info from the blurbs on the Mobil 1 website:

Mobil 1 5W-30 is recommended for all types of modern vehicles, including high-performance turbo-charged, supercharged gasoline and multi-valve fuel injected engines found in passenger cars, SUVs, light vans and trucks

That text appears on the "regular" formula page.

Here is what the "Extended" formula page says:

Mobil 1 Extended Performance motor oil is designed for today's longer service intervals. Mobil 1 Extended Performance products contain 50 percent more SuperSyn, 37 percent more cleaning agents, and 36 percent more anti-wear additives than Mobil 1. Mobil 1 Extended Performance with the Advanced SuperSyn System helps keep engines running like new and helps extend engine life by reducing wear and oil breakdown. Please follow the recommendations in your owner's manual while your car is under warranty.

Not the absence of any reference to the "heavy duty" applications like supercharged and turbocharged.

Not a scientific analysis, but the advertising seems intended to appeal to hard drivers for the regular oil, and extended OCI drivers for the Extended oil.

roper2 · June 2005

Is the extended Mobil 5000-7500 oil a synthetic blend or a full synthetic oil? thanks

shipo · June 2005

To the best of my knowledge, all oils called "Mobil 1" are fully synthetic.

Best Regards,
Shipo

micweb · June 2005

All Mobil 1 oils are fully synthetic...but if it doesn't have the "1" it isn't, for example, Mobil 5000, Mobil 7500.

chrisgo · June 2005

I bought a used Chevy Venture 2001 with 47000 on it and I am wondering if I should stay with the oil cap recommended 5w30 or use a 10w40 as the van is driven mostly in Florida.
I added some Slick 50 to my last 2 vehicles and was very happy with the results.
I would like to use a semi synthetic oil as well, the synthetic oil seems pricey for regular changes.

shipo · June 2005

"...the synthetic oil seems pricey for regular changes."

Yeesh! And yet you waste your money on snake oil called "Slick 50"? Makes no sense.

Best Regards,
Shipo

div2 · June 2005

I agree with shipo 100%. Quit wasting your money on snake oil. Instead, use Mobil 1 5W-30 with a Mobil 1, Pure One, or Wix filter and change it out every 7500 miles.

Mr_Shiftright · June 2005

I concur. Spend your money on oil changes and quality oil, not products of dubious merit.

beernut · June 2005

...."of dubious merit". I like that. It reminds me of some people I work with.

marsha7 · June 2005

pressure in your tires once every week to two weeks, the one best thing you can do for your car is change the oil and filter on a regular basis...you are giving it the only fluid that makes it run, cool, clean, etc, and it is usually only 5 or 6 quarts...not really much fluid to suspend much dirt in...change every 3-5K miles religiously, which will help engine last much more than any chemical additive ever could...

shipo · June 2005

"...change every 3-5K miles religiously, which will help engine last much more than any chemical additive ever could..."

Hmmm, given that this is a discussion on "Synthetic Oil", my version of your statement would be "...change your oil with synthetic oil per the manufacturers recommendations religiously, which will help engine last much more than any chemical additive ever could..."

Best Regards,
Shipo

csandste · June 2005

Without checking, I thought these had some group III basestocks, especially the 7500. Doesn't XOM have a lot of group III capacity? Obviously they can't tout that as synthetic or it would work against their marketing on M1.

roper2 · June 2005

Aren't these mobil 5000-7500 just another synthetic blend motor oil? I know the mobil1 is a full syn.Just wandering.

marsha7 · June 2005

I must agree with your assessment...I musta thought I was in the dino oil section...with synthetic oil, you can always go a MINIMUM of 5K miles, and some go more than that...I believe that some cars (which ones???) that have oil pans for 8 quarts can probably go 10K miles, altho I personally would never go past 7500 miles...thanks for the correction...you will note the post was after 11 pm...I am not to be held responsible for anything I say or do after 11 pm...:):):):)

shipo · June 2005

I hear you on the "after 11 pm" posts, I've posted many a time after too long of a day only to have read what I wrote a day or two later and said to myself, "What was I thinking?"

To expand upon some of your thoughts; my last two BMWs have had 2.8 and 3.0 liter six cylinder engines, and they both have had a roughly seven quart oil capacity, which is nearly twice the size of many engines of a similar size. Combine that with the fact that the cars came from the factory with synthetic oil, and that fully synthetic is the only oil specified, and you have an engine that should at least do 10K miles between oil changes. But wait! There's more. The 2.8 engine was certified ULEV and the 3.0 was certified ULEV-II, and as such, the amount of contaminants produced by those engines during normal operations is a mere fraction of what engines produced just ten years ago (not to mention what they produced thirty years ago), and there is a direct corelation between clean combustion and clean oil.

So, if the take a very clean burning engine with twice the normal compliment of oil in its sump, and synthetic oil at that, what do you get? Simple, an engine that has a target 15,000 OCI from the factory. I say "Target" because there is an on board computer that is tasked with determining when the oil should be changed, and that of course is based upon the kind of driving that has been done since the last oil change. On my last car, I picked it up in Germany and once broken in, I drove the willies out of it on the AutoBahn. Not surprisingly the computer called for the oil to be changed at just over 13K miles. Right about the time of that oil change, I moved to New Hampshire and started doing a lot of long distance commuting between here and Long Island. I usually time my trips to avoid as much traffic as possible, and this last time around, the computer called for an oil change at 31K miles, a whopping 18K miles since the first change.

Best Regards,
Shipo

ruking1 · June 2005

I have been following oil threads for a while and it is rare to see a post acknowledging the very simple point that just the increase in the % of oil, given a certain system can have an affect/effect on oil longevity. So if I can run 10,000 OCI's on a 3.4 quart system; how much can I run if the sump is now 1 quart more? (1/3.4=29% more x 10,000=2900 +=12,900 mile OCI's.)So for example it is a very telling that bypass oil filter folks do not mention the effect of adding 1 quart to the system, which of course the addition of the systems happens to add.

So also if my 3.4 qt system were to be now 7 quarts, then in theory I can now run 106% MORE miles on an OCI. ( or 20,600 mile OCI's).

shipo · June 2005

"So also if my 3.4 qt system were to be now 7 quarts, then in theory I can now run 106% MORE miles on an OCI. ( or 20,600 mile OCI's)."

In general I agree with that, however, there a few other things to consider:
1) Will your oil-filter last for 20K miles?
2) Time and oxidization also play a roll in oil life. If your hypothetical 20K miles is driven in less than a year, then "non-issue", otherwise I'd change at the 1 year point regardless of how many miles had been driven.
3) The more oil your sump contains, the longer it takes said oil to reach a temperature high enough to "Boil out" the water that has collected inside of your engine since its last shutdown. If your car is driven on lots of short trips, you might find that the increase in oil capacity is enough to prevent it from reaching a high enough temperature to keep itself clean and contaminate free.

Best Regards,
Shipo

ruking1 · June 2005

..."I usually time my trips to avoid as much traffic as possible, and this last time around, the computer called for an oil change at 31K miles, a whopping 18K miles since the first change."...

Given your above post, this solution is easily within the realm of that on board computer.

capflow · June 2005

I have a '93 honda civic LX with 167k miles. It has always had 3k OCI's with dino.

Alright, I understand to a degree the warnings about using synthetic in a car with this many miles. I seem to get the impression that doing so is not a big deal while others say don't do it. If the issue is that the leak appears due to build up, then I don't believe there would be much of a problem due to the regular OCI's. If it is due to seals not being able to handle the new oil, then I may have a problem.

Questions:

1. What are my chances of contracting a leak?
2. If so, will it be severe?
3. Will it be correctable?
4. About how long do you think I have before one would appear or basically when is my safe point to assume it will not leak?

I have used Mobil1 in other cars but never one this old.

thanks.

micweb · June 2005

Leaking was only an issue decades ago before they perfected the additives necessary to keep seals in good condition.

ruking1 · June 2005

I would wonder and ask what is your purpose or what do you expect from synthetic oil after running 3k OCI's with conventional oil for 167k miles in your Honda?

capflow · June 2005

Well, that's a good question. I've only had this car 14 months. I've put 33k miles on it myself. I'm nearly changing my oil once a month. I'm not even necessarily saying I will convert but with the environment, middle east, etc.

ruking1 · June 2005

Only by your response, I would say stick with the conventional oils.

I am coming from two places

1. 694,000 miles with 15,000 mile OCI's with Mobil One 5w30 synthetic.

2. 10,000 mile break in OCI on oem fill (Honda 5w20, CONVENTIONAL oil) with a 2004 Honda Civic VP.

So in truth, I would have no qualms whatsoever with 10,000 mile OCI's (per Honda Civic's owners manual and shop technical data and warranty periods) with any one of half a doz or more superior conventional oils; I.E., I would use EM Superflo 5w20,

So with #2, I switched to Mobil One 0w20 (synthetic) I will go another 10,000 mile OCI for two reasons:

1 final break in

2 After the meager warranty of 3 yr or 36,000 miles, I have no problems going to 20,000 mile OCI's.

So if you continue to do 3k oci's, in effect you would waste far less money if you stayed with conventional oil.

df2000 · June 2005

I would be second on stay with conventional oil.
You are doing mostly highway miles so you don't have to change oil so offen.
I think oil brand like Chevron, Havoline or other major brands can easy go to 6K mi on highway.

marsha7 · June 2005

I appreciate what you do with your BMWs, and I understand that sensors monitor the oil...I am not smart enough to second guess BMW engineers...having said that, I could never allow myself to go over 7500 miles between oil and filter changes, even if I had 10 quarts in the oil pan...I have just allowed myself to go 5K in my new vehicles (Castrol Syn 5W-30, Crown Vic 6 quarts, Ram Hemi 7 quarts)...maybe you think I am overchanging my oil, and maybe I am, but I see oil as so critical, even changing it before it is "necessary" cannot hurt the engine, as fresh lubricant (can we truly can syn oil as oil?) can never hurt...I may spend a little more than you on oil/filter changes, but no harm can come from my form of maintenance, just a few extra dollars spent...well spent, IMHO...YMMV

ruking1 · June 2005

I think in some ways the BMW follks really like you second guessing them.

marsha7 · June 2005

If they want a challenge to keep them awake at night, I WILL start to second guess them, but I will not reveal just which part of the car I am second guessing...THAT, by itself, will keep them guessing...I guess...

ruking1 · June 2005

In the context of your post, would they benefit more if they changed your oil at 5000-7500 miles as opposed to changing your oil using the on board computer? Late model BMW's have been known to go much higher than 5000-7500 miles.

marsha7 · June 2005

school of the 60s and 70s (in the 1900s, not the 1800s...not THAT old school)...change oil and filter every 3K miles, or watch sludge build up on valve springs and cylinder heads...having done the valve jobs on those who went over 5K between changes, and then observing the "better than new" condition of my heads when the valve covers were removed at 165K (not one molecule of dirt or sludge, looked like it just came out of the machine shop), I convinced myself that 3K was best...that was for dino oil...now, after finally accepting that synthetic is a viable alternative ( I said last year on these posts that as long as dino oil comes out of the ground, synthetic oil can rot...I changed my mind from these posts), I have raised my limit from 3K miles to 5K miles...that means in 100,000 miles, I will change my oil/filter 20 times with syn compared to 33 times with dino...

Syn: 20 changes at $42 per change = $840.00
Dino: 33 changes at $24 per change = $792.00

The difference is barely a $50 bills over 100K miles (assuming constant prices, of course)...heck, if I just stretch a few of the syn changes to 6K miles instead of 5K, the price would even out if I just changed the syn oil 19 times in 100K miles...so, I do feel comfortable going 5K miles on syn oil...

Since the oil cleans, lubricates, cools the engine, especially cleans and lubes, there can NEVER be any harm in changing oil before it is sufficiently filthy for the sensors to pick up...kinda like showering twice in one day...usually not mandatory, but can anyone ever be hurt by showering again before they stink to high holy heaven???...

Even I feel better when I start the engine, and all that fresh oil is pumped in all the internal parts, knowing the oil is fresh and clean at 5K...just my habit, I guess...

ruking1 · June 2005

Well I am from the old school also, started helping my Dad late 50's. I have to say the good ole days of oil are NOW! You'd probably bust a gut if I told you I do a 25,000 mile OCI with Delvac One 5w40 with a diesel motor no less.

I think if all you will do is 100,000 miles, why bother? The TDI I plan to run 500,000 to 1,000,000 miles. It is a bit oxymoronic to see those most concern with using synthetic for short OCI's, usually the ones to sell or get rid of the car at a lower mileage interval. I also have app 250,000 miles on a 14 year old Toyota 1987 Landcruiser which went to the shop for 15,000 mile valve adjust intervals. It was an every day business and client vehicle. The mechanics always marveled at the tolerances and lack of sludge in the motor up until it was sold. The oil was 5w30 Mobil One and heaven help me FRAM PH8A oil filters.

nissan98 · June 2005

I have a 98 Nissan Altima with 84,000 miles and a 96 Isuzu Trooper with 112,000 miles. Six weeks ago I changed from using conventional oil to a mixture of 75% Mobil Clean High Mileage 10W30 and 25% Mobil 1 Extended Protection 5W30 in an effort to gradually switch to 100% synthetic. I will change to a mixture of 50/50, 25/75, and then to 100% synthetic in that order at each of the next three oil changes. I want to see if the cars will develop any leaks due to the synthetic. If not, I will then continue with synthetic. Has anyone had any experiences, good or bad, with changing to synthetic in high-mileage cars? I discovered that Fram has an oil filter called the Tough Guard which has an anti-drain-back valve that retains oil in the filter to eliminate dry starts in cars. Does anyone know if these filters work as advertised?

Mr_Shiftright · June 2005

I've changed quite a few high mileage cars from regular to synthetic and later switched back again on all but one of them, but not because of any leakage. Of course these were old cars, so one might normally see a liittle drip here and there, but never anything of concern.

On one car the synthetic helped with cold starts for certain, and for maintining somewhat cooler temperatures while running through the desert in summer, (air cooled engine with cylinder head and oil temp gauges) but otherwise there were no appreciable mileage benefits on any of the cars, which is what I was hoping for.

I wouldn't have a problem with extended oil changes on new engines but I wasn't keen on stretching them beyond 5,000 miles on old engines.

marsha7 · June 2005

My gut is busting as we speak...I would never allow a 25K interval if I was in a coma...

ruking1 · June 2005

This thing also gets between 44-62 mpg. It is also indeed neat to only change oil in app a bit less than than a year's time.

spudislander · July 2005

Generally, I change the oil and filter on my 2004 Cavalier myself every 3000 miles. Here in Canada, most autoparts stores carry the cartridge filter. Carquest sells their Carquest Blue filter (a quality Wix product) for nearly $2.00 less than the dealer's AC Delco. When I have the dealer do the change, I bring my own oil. The GM tech website lists all the oils they have approved as meeting 6094M. See
http://www.gmtechlink.com/images/issues/ref_gds/synthgd.pdf

Sometimes it takes awhile for the GM page to download

aquaticexplore · July 2005

I run Mobil 1 in my TSX, and have extended the OCI from my old habit of 3K to 6K miles. I would, however, feel nervous running the interval out to 15K or even 25K even if the car was out of warrenty just on gut feeling alone. I am amazed Shipo ran his BMW way out there, oil monitor or not. To me it is not worth the risk to save a few bucks.

shipo · July 2005

"I am amazed Shipo ran his BMW way out there, oil monitor or not. To me it is not worth the risk to save a few bucks."

I've written on this topic many times over the last seven years, and each time I do, I put a little more thought into the subject. In the end, after all of the arguments are distilled away it seems that I keep coming up with two distinct classes of folks regarding the OCI:

1) Scientific oil changers, and
2) Religious oil changers.

I am a scientific oil changer, you are a religious one. The fact remains that extended oil changes (ie. >= 15,000 miles as recommended by the vehicle manufacturer) have been around for at least a decade (if I recall correctly, Porsche got the ball rolling back in the early to mid 1990s). Since the inception of the 15,000 mile OCI, I have yet to see a single scientific study that suggests that engine life would be measurably enhanced by reducing the number of miles drive between changes. The flip side of course is that I've seen plenty of evidence, both scientific and anecdotal, that suggests that if anything, running a modern engine 15,000 miles with premium synthetic oil, fed with modern clean burning fuel, is a conservative number. When I was working for MB-USA back in the mid 1990s I kept a close watch on their synthetic oil tests. The result? None of their test cars, which routinely had the oil analyzed, ever needed an oil change before 20,000 miles.

A few questions:
- Is modern gasoline formulated to combust far cleaner than any gasoline ever made?
- Are modern LEV, ULEV, ULEV-II, and Tier2 certified cars capable of burning modern fuel so cleanly that particulate matter is far less than 1% of what similar engines produced just twenty years ago?
- Is modern fully synthetic oil capable of holding in suspension far more post combustion particulate matter than any conventional oil ever made?
- Is modern fully synthetic oil capable of holding acid causing water in suspension far longer without allowing said acids to form?
- Is modern fully synthetic oil many times more capable at maintaining its chemical structure without breaking down with both time and usage?
- Would doubling the oil capacity of a modern engine (such as BMW does) versus other engines of similar size not also double the oil life?

Science says that the answer to each and every one of those questions is an unqualified, "Yes". When I think about it, maybe I'm still wasting my money by sticking to the 15K oil change. Maybe I should extend it to 22,500 miles, or even (gasp!) 30,000 miles. In the end, I'm inclined to adhere to the recommendations of the scientists and engineers that built my car. Then again, I'm an atheist too. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

ruking1 · July 2005

shekhar · August 2005

Wal-Mart sells "supertech"brand oil, charging $14 for an oil and filter change. This is extremely cheap compared to the $40 oil changes at lube stops. Is there a point in spending more if my OCI is 3500-4000 miles?
I am capable of checking and topping off the liquids, and changing various filters.

another_person · August 2005

2000 Land Cruiser with 53000 of convential oil, should I switch to a synthetic?
It's almost a daily driver, but sits most of the time in the garage. Is it worth it to switch, I heard that it's better for the engine, and it last longer, but I don't know if I'm ready to go more then 5k between oil changes.

micweb · August 2005

Walmart also offers Pennzoil oil changes for just a little more, and Pennzoil is one of the top Group II+ oils out there. I think it is worth the extra money, and you will still come in way cheaper than lube shops (also note that Walmart will sell you a Pennzoil change with, or without, an inspection, and you can save about $3.00 that way). But if it's a choice between a basic Walmart oil change with Supertech oil and no oil change at all (which it often is for many single moms and retirees), I'd opt for the Walmart oil change every time. It's one of the great bargains offered to Walmart customers and so cheap it's darn near a public service.

Contrary to some rumours, Supertech oil isn't private label Pennzoil. It is from an independent refinery, used to be out of Shrevesport.

Also keep in mind that the Starburst, GF-4, and SM oil certifications are all "self-certified" - there are no independent tests to confirm compliance. The Pennzoil label is worth the extra peace of mind.

I have no such qualms about Supertech filters which are private label Champion Labs brand. Many of us believe they are far superior to Fram filters (and I recollect that Pennzoil and Quaker State filters are re-branded label Fram filters). Champion also makes STP and Bosch filters found at Autozone. In fact when I used to get Walmart oil changes, I would ask them to use Supertech oil filters instead of Fram.

The hierarchy of prices at Walmart is as follows, from cheap to more expensive, base on my recollection:

1. Supertech Oil Change with no inspection.
2. Pennzoil oil change with no inspection.
3. Pennzoil oil change with inspection.
4. Bottled oil, conventional, with no inspection.
5. Bottled oil, conventional, with inspection.
6. Bottled oil, synthetic, with no inspection.
7. Bottled oil, synthetic, with inspection.

Not all these variations are obvious from their posted menu of prices, but ask.

highroller · August 2005

I believe the answer is that it's really all up to you. Some might use synthetic because of it's incredible ability to work during very low/high temperature in the areas in which they live or drive in. Synthetics can last much longer than regular motor oil. In my opinion, using conventional oil and changing it about every 3,000 miles will work fine. If you feel unsafe about changing oil at 5,000 miles, than you can stay put with the conventional oil. If i use synthetic oil, i would still change my oil about every 3,000 miles. People may think that it's a waste of money and oil but I just believe that 3,000 miles (about 6 months or so) is still a very long time to be changing oil. Depending on the area you live in, in about 6 months, your oil may have alot of dirt or unecessary deposits that your oil filter may not have picked up and can lead to engine damage. I use synthetics currently because it's the summer time here in Texas. So far, the average temperature is about 97 degrees. We have had about (4) 100 degrees+ days over here.

ruking1 · August 2005

With a good synthetic, (like Mobil One for one example) 15,000 mile OCI's can be very conservative. I have been doing 15,000 mile OCI's for over 694,000 miles with absolutely no engine concerns or sludge problems.

I have one vehicle that is working on a 25,000 mile OCI (again with a Mobil One T&S 5w40, aka Delvac One 5w40)

I also like changing app once per year instead of the usual 5 times a year.

Mr_Shiftright · August 2005

I've only got one complaint about extended oil changes and it has nothing to do with the oil itself.

I think with OLDER cars especially, it's a good idea to have it up on a lift and someone looking the car over every 3,000-5,000 miles. I think that 15K between regular visual inspections, on older cars, is too long.

marsha7 · August 2005

we learned a long time ago, with a little hi-tech added...

I am from the old school that 3K on dino oil was normal, could push to 4K miles if necessary...I have converted both of my new cars to syn oil, and I feel comfortable now at 5K changes...

Could I go 10K or 15K with no damage???...maybe, but I am comfortable at 5K, so I will do that...the poster with 694K miles and changes at 15K, keep going, I am glad you feel OK with that...I like 5K, which may be more old habit, than based on science...

One thing: since the oil is the way to clean and lube the engine, I do believe that you cannot change oil too often, within reason (i.e. every 500 miles is not taking care of your engine, it is as ridiculous as taking a shower every hour to feel clean)...that's enough from me... :shades: :shades:

ruking1 · August 2005

Yeah, I am really ok with the 15k OCI's with 694k. (actually more)

This is app 47 oil changes vs a 3k OCI's = 232 oil changes.

368 qts/4=94 gals vs 1,848qts/4= 464 gals,.

not to mention 47 oil filters vs 464 oil filters.

The huge savings, if one has to pay to get the oil changed is the labor. Normal change is 18 dollars so 47 changes would cost $846. vs 232 changes =$4,176

I would also agree that it is convenient to look under the car at oil changes. I guess I really give it the once over when I wash the vehicles.

highroller · August 2005

Here's another thing i want to say in my own opinion (remember i'm just stating my own opinion, im no expert

: Knowing that using synthetics can last much longer, if you do decide to use synthetics, try to change it by 3,000-6,000 miles. I also think that Mr. Shiftright is correct about inspecting older cars by using a lift. If people who tend to change their oils every 15,000 miles, sometimes they don't inspect underneath their car until something badly has gone wrong. 15,000 miles seems like getting a checkup every year and a half. But with older cars, they need to be checked up more often at least twice a year because if you do not, you wouldn't probably know that your CV boot or axle may be broken or leaking and need to be replaced, and etc. Without the inspection, the result can be your wheels locking up and causing a nightmare or even deadly accidents when driving at highway speed or what not. And this is just an example to think about.

Synthetic motor oil

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