Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/25 for details.
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/25 for details.
Options
Comments
In the TDI world, it is commonly known (maybe not so commonly) the oem "cartridge" oil filter is designed for 30,000 mile OCI's. The oem recommended OCI is 10,000 miles. So in this case changing the filter early is over kill. Depending on specific oils, oil analysis has indicated 10,000 mile OCI's as EXTREMELY conservative. Indeed Honda Civic has a every other oil filter change recommendation. In my case, that is 20,000 miles. So realistically all you can really do is to patronize those oems that offer and stand behind so called longer OCI's like BMW, MB, Honda Civic, etc.
Conversely, Toyota just settled a class action lawsuit on (my sic) "sludge monsters" with the caveat of admitting no wrong nor defect. The oems recommend 3,5,,7.5k OCI's.
So the settlement of the suit indicates no SERIOUS move to either address the true issues, or correct the underlying conditions; or in a more resource conservation mode, longer term engineering for longer OCI's. Some folks have even experienced sludge problems even with Toyota dealers doing 3/5k oil changes and were denied remedies!! So if you end up an unfortunate recipient of a "sludge monster" you now DO have remedies, once you run the required gauntlets. Or you can just decide to buy a sludge monster and hope it doesnt sludge or not to buy another sludge monster or not buy another Toyota all together. To me however this means resumption of sales and productions, aka business as usual. The good news is there ARE selective products that can run longer OCI's.
I am on my second (oem recommended) 20,000 mile oil filter on the Civic, not much to report.
Best Regards,
Shipo
I mean, I bet there are any number of blown up engines that had pretty good lab results 1,000 miles before the catastrophe.
No sense running your oil to just-before-exhaustion, is there?
Indeed the most costly thing about the oil filter outside of the ridge steel outside case is the BYPASS VALUE mechanism!
On the TDI the cartridge filter is encased in a a more permanent structure. The cap is a more expensive hard plastic like the phenalics of old.
Indeed there are three things NOT currently done that can DRAMATICALLY increase the length of OCI's:
1. double or triple the sump size
2. use pre oilers
3. use bypass oil filters
4. change oil only when oil analysis indicates depletion
Indeed, the same is true on the TDI air filter. When new (unless there are seal leaks or manufacturing defects) a clean air filter actually lets in more of what you are filtering, than if it had a few miles or has been filtering awhile.
Pardon my saying it, but that don't make no sense.
Typically the only way an engine can show good UOA lab results at any given point and then suffer from a catastrophic failure one thousand miles later would be if a structural component failed (i.e. block, rod, crank, bearing cap, piston, wristpin, cam, valve train to name a few), and those type of failures are NOT oil related.
The only way I can envision an oil related failure right after good lab results would be if the engine was run with low oil or suffered an oil pump failure. But then again, those two aren't really oil related failures either, are they.
"No sense running your oil to just-before-exhaustion, is there?"
I've never seen any scientific evidence to suggest that running oil to the ragged edge (but not beyond) will harm an engine in any way. Personally, I like to have a little wiggle room, so I've set the OCIs for our two non-OLM equipped minivans at ~10,000 miles (which means that I usually get to it before the 11,000 mile mark). I did that after getting two UOAs done on each van; UOAs that scientifically proved that the Mobil 1 0W-40 that I use is good for 12,000-13,000 miles in those cars.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Once you've sucked the canister dry, you can turn the oil extractor loose on the oil in the pan, and by the time you've finished fussing with the filter canister, the oil from the pan is now in the extractor. Simply dump in another six quarts, button'er up and you're good to go for another 15,000 miles. ;-)
FWIW, I'd love to see pre-oilers as at least an option for all cars (if not standard equipment). That said, just how long do we want our engines to last anyway? I mean, take one of our minivans as an example. My Mom borrowed it one day back when it was three years old and managed to get it a pretty serious whack in the rump. Then Mrs. Shipo managed to exchanged paint with one of those stupid concrete filled pipes used to protect ATM machines at a drive through (they're stupid because unless your driving an old Opel GT, you cannot see the damn things above the front fender), and managed to crease the entire right side of the van in addition to the new yellow racing stripe. Then some kind individual in what was probably a very large truck backed into it last summer and rolled the hood back like a sardine can (missed the bumper, grill and the fenders though). I'm figuring that that van will probably last to about the quarter of a million mile mark (has 133,999 as it sits in the garage right now) without serious body, electrical and suspension work. That said, the engine is still using the exact same amount of oil it did once it was broken in, namely one quart every 7,500 miles, and probably won't be much worse for the wear once it hits 250,000.
Best Regards,
Shipo
So careful attention to oil and filters and the best products really only improves our odds but doesn't in fact give us the assurance we crave.
Being a fastidious type when it comes to car maintenance, I'm still not under the illusion that my new car's engine isn't going to blow up someday, or start burning oil, or lose compression, etc. But I want to make darn sure I didn't hasten it through neglect.
I had also thought the statement:
As for MIXING synthetic and regular oils together habitually, I'm still researching that.
was referring to synthetic blends, not mixing synthetic and conventional on your own.
Once you've sucked the canister dry, you can turn the oil extractor loose on the oil in the pan, and by the time you've finished fussing with the filter canister, the oil from the pan is now in the extractor. Simply dump in another six quarts, button'er up and you're good to go for another 15,000 miles. ;-)
FWIW, I'd love to see pre-oilers as at least an option for all cars (if not standard equipment). That said, just how long do we want our engines to last anyway? I mean, take one of our minivans as an example. My Mom borrowed it one day back when it was three years old and managed to get it a pretty serious whack in the rump. Then Mrs. Shipo managed to exchanged paint with one of those stupid concrete filled pipes used to protect ATM machines at a drive through (they're stupid because unless your driving an old Opel GT, you cannot see the damn things above the front fender), and managed to crease the entire right side of the van in addition to the new yellow racing stripe. Then some kind individual in what was probably a very large truck backed into it last summer and rolled the hood back like a sardine can (missed the bumper, grill and the fenders though). I'm figuring that that van will probably last to about the quarter of a million mile mark (has 133,999 as it sits in the garage right now) without serious body, electrical and suspension work. That said, the engine is still using the exact same amount of oil it did once it was broken in, namely one quart every 7,500 miles, and probably won't be much worse for the wear once it hits 250,000.
Best Regards,
Shipo...
Not that this is a oil filter thread, but in my mind there is a hand in glove nexus.
You know I think the difference in (FILTER) design makes a huge difference both % and vol. If I might outline some issues. First of all BMW (chime in here for any inaccuracies) and VW made one structure, oil cap and oil filter body. So in effect more cost money (percentage and volume )is spent on the FILTER portion ie you are buying the so called filter INSERT. Indeed when you pull the oil filter (media) you can see RIGHT AWAY if the filter is doing its job or not. Or if it has trapped all the legendary floor sweeping most folks are deathly afraid!
When you pull a normal oil filter you would have to literally cut the metal structure open to see the inner filter media. This of course creates a visual as well as conceptual bias. So right there, the difference is acute. How much is spent on media vs support structure (steel, paint etc)? So to me it makes perfect sense the Mann or Mayle cartridge oil filter can and is rated for a min of 30,000 miles.
The one it replaced was a lot junkier and the mechanic I used for it told me not to bother changing oil based on time, just go by mileage and this was with conventional oil. Then he said, well maybe change it after a year if you havn't hit the mileage by then. I was not sure if this was a good idea, but the car was pretty junky and I was only trying to get another year out of it at the time...so I did not really care.
Based on this I had been thinking maybe a 1 year/3000 mile oil change interval would be okay. Seems like advice here is that this would be okay, if I use synthetic. I don't know if this would be better or worse than just following Ford's schedule and changing every 6 months using their synthetic blend.
I also wonder if it would help to maybe once per month make sure it goes on a 20 minute or so trip to get everything heated up. Or maybe my kid could periodically leave it idling for another 15 minutes after he gets home from his typical 3 mile trip.
UPSHOT: go by miles either conventional/synthetic. Take it out every so often for at least an hours uninterrupted drive.
As this is a synthetic thread, I have gone three years/app 5k per year to get a 15,000 mile OCI. Absolutely NO concerns!! The vehicle just passed a smog only test with absolutely FLYING colors, before that went through a valve adjust CHECK with original factory tool markings needing absolutely NO adjustments. ASE Toyota DEALER mechanics commented how internally CLEAN this vehicle IS. Now if only I could have gotten the oem battery to have lasted 13 years!
I should probably add, it was driven by a high school student (license at 16) to school a 2 mile R/T for app 2 years.
Old vehicle (Windstar; I used to have one): One year oil changes are no problem. The oil tends to get thick with age, so change it once a year in the Fall so the oil will be at its thinnest in the winter. Also, use a 0w-20 or 5w-20, as it will thicken up a bit to a 35 weight after nine months or so under those cold-driving conditions. Use a high-capacity oil filter like Amsoil's EAO filters, or Mobil1 EP filter line to go one year, although that may not be necessary completely, as regular Purolator (NOT the "PureOne" type) oil filters have the best flow rates, least pressure drop, to go a lot of miles as well.
You can easily go one year (again, change it in the Fall) on any vehicle using Mobil1 5w-20 EP, or Mobil1 0w-20, or Amsoil 0w-30 and Amsoil's EAO filter line (the best) or maybe Mobil1's EP line if you don't like mail-ordering from Amsoil for their slightly-better filter. One year oil changes are great, saving time/money/mess!!!!!! Actually, in Western Europe, people typically go one full year, and their ACEA ratings and BMW LongLife, Mercedes, Volks. oil tests are meant for this. Mobil1 0w-20 and 5w-20, and most of their Mobil1 EP oils (5w-20, 5w-30) have the ACEA test ratings, so they are good to go. The Amsoil 0w-30 is also an ACEA oil. Almost all oils have GF-4/SM ratings, so the extra ACEA test ratings really separate the men from the boys.
While I am not one to overdo oil changes (I tend to go at least 6 mo. and up to 5000 mi with conventional oil), unless you are changing your own oil and dumping it into the environment, the used oil is being recycled or used as fuel, not dumped.
Naturally, for those who need the benefits of synthetics for special needs, there's no argument as to benefit. But presenting synthetic's main benefit as the ability to extend oil changes sounds.....weak....to me at least.
Another, over the long term, synthetic oil is less susceptible to sludging than conventional oil. Another practical aspect is a lot of folks change (conventional) oil because of a nagging fear of sludge. Another other side of course, would be not changing the oil,thus increasing the chances of sludge formation.
More macro, a lesser structural demand is indeed very compelling given the %'s of a barrel of crude it takes to make say a gal of motor oil. The underlying assumption: it is a good thing to lessen oil use. (specifically foreign oil) While your recycling comment is noted, how many folks would switched to using a RECYCLED oil product!! Not many, I would wager.
Hmmm, well, in our case, my wife's office just moved further south of our house while my main client is about to move further north, keeping us almost equidistant between the two. Once the second move occurs, we will be driving just over a combined 90,000 miles per year. The OEM recommendation for OCIs for our current cars is 6,000 miles; however, oil analysis on both cars has shown that the oil that I use is good for 12,000 to 13,000 miles. As opposed to doing a UOA after every oil change I've just increased my margin of error and settled on a 10,000 mile OCI (which means I usually get to it by 11,000 miles). What that means for us in real terms is that instead of fifteen oil changes per year, I only need to do nine.
Since I subscribe to the "Time is money" philosophy, I find that it is much quicker to do my own oil changes than it is even if I were to use Jiffy Boob, so my calculations would work out as follows:
Oil change using conventional oil (including the cost of my time): $60
Oil change using synthetic oil (including the cost of my time): $80
Fifteen conventional oil changes: $900
Nine synthetic oil changes: $720
Not only am I saving REAL money, I'm saving (my conservatively accounted for and very precious) time. In fact, with the time and money saved, I can take Mrs. Shipo out to a really nice dinner for free. Not too shabby.
Best Regards,
Shipo
I commend your thrift (sincerely) but it still isn't a "compelling" argument.
And BTW most people with newer cars are on a 5K oil change, not a 3K. So if you change every 6K, that's not double what most people change at....but changing every 10K would be.
Another factor you personally may not be facing but what I face is that if I present Toyota with 10K oil changes and a busted engine, I'm up the creek on warranty, and so is everyone else who is under the same warranty service schedule.
So we are under a DIS-incentive to prolong oil changes.
I don't know that waste oil is recycled to be re-used as lube oil. It is, however, used as fuel. Asphalt plants have been big users of waste oil fuel for some time. There is no net additional use of oil, if every quart that is drained from an engine is used as fuel in an asphalt plant or elsewhere. If they were not burning the waste oil they'd be burning virgin #2 oil.
My view of the cost would be two conventional changes per year at about $22-23, versus one change per year with synthetic at probably about $44-46. So no significant difference for this non-DIYer...other than the time involved in getting the extra oil change.
The truth is more like: take a series of hundreds/thousands of small steps (usually HARD) which would tally to more like 1,2,3,4,5% etc! So if we systematically do NOT take small steps, then it should really come as no surprise when we are not cutting back, but instead importing MORE oil.
Stop all the excess commercial flights. Cut the number by 25%. Saves a lot of fuel.
Stop the attention-mongerers flying around or driving their SUVs for security personel and telling us about global warming. Yeah when Gore flew in Air Force One (747) it was getting better gas mileage than a Buick 3800? Or he drives around in cars that are all Prius' at 38 mpg? NOT.
Any names are not mentioned to be political: they were in the news. One for flights home and the other was for flying from Japan to Washington to Califonia from the Nyoto global warming conference while in office.
Myself as I said in a post long ago I may try a spring/summer/fall run with my newer car. But I am concerned about getting contaminants out from short trips in other cars and during cold weather driving. Other people have different driving patterns and synthetic speaks much better to them.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Somehow I was under the impression that I was saving $180 per year. I guess I have a problem with the new math. :-P
"I commend your thrift (sincerely) but it still isn't a "compelling" argument."
I guess I didn't make my key point well enough. Even if the synthetic oil was more expensive, even $500 more expensive, I'd still use it. Why? My time is that precious. You'll have to take my word for it on this one, however, crawling under a car every three to four weeks to change the oil is not something I have time for. Taking it to a Jiffy Boob and waiting around whilst they bumble around even less so.
"And BTW most people with newer cars are on a 5K oil change, not a 3K. So if you change every 6K, that's not double what most people change at....but changing every 10K would be."
Yeah, and relative to the "margin of error" that I like to build into my OCIs, a 5K OCI with conventional oil would be closer to the mark and closer to an "Apples to Apples" comparison. Hmmm, so if I ran conventional oil using a 5,000 mile OCI, that would be 18 oil changes per year instead of 15. At $60 per change, that would mean that conventional oil would cost me $1,080, meaning that my annual savings would be more like $360.
"Another factor you personally may not be facing but what I face is that if I present Toyota with 10K oil changes and a busted engine, I'm up the creek on warranty, and so is everyone else who is under the same warranty service schedule."
Yeah, not in our house. Warranties don't last too long these days. The combined mileage for our two daily drivers is going to cross 220,000 next week (or early the week after), and as such, both cars are LONG since out of their warranty periods. That said, they each were switched over to synthetic oil and extended OCIs fairly early on (i.e. within the first 10,000 miles). So far at least, both engines are as clean as the day they rolled out of the factory.
Regarding Toyota oil changes, I'm thinking that there is no way in hell I'd extend the OCI on any of their models. That said, given the sludging factor, that in and of itself is more than enough incentive to use synthetic oil.
Best Regards,
Shipo
In my case, with my '03 Passat, it's full synthetic Mobil 1 0w-40 with an OCI of 5,000 miles or 6 months, whichever comes first. In fact, I'm only averaging about 4,200 miles between changes. But with that engine's propensity to coke oil and clog the oil pickup screen combined with my frequent short-trip lifestyle, I'm actually okay with this and will probably stick with it even after my warrranty expires. And I'll stick with my 2 minute cooldown after a hard drive, too. Ah, the curse of a too-small sump mated to a hot turbo. Two $50 oil changes a year buys me peace of mind, documented warranty compliance, and elimination of the fear of sludging an expensive engine.
I take a Cramerian stance (Of the "MAD MONEY" CNBC TV fame) on this and in addition to due diligence, do your homework! So in effect do not be fooled by the front side hype and marketing. Ask questions at the intended service department, don't be afraid to talk to independent repair shops. talk to the mechanics BEFORE!!
So for example, while a very small consumer point, I have two products that specify (specfic) synthetic oil and do have 10,000 and 15,000 mile respectively OCI's. One which I really applaud is the Honda Civic with 10,000 mile OCI's on CONVENTIONAL OIL (5w20)!! In a backward sort of way an oem who does a recommended oci of 5,000 miles or less is probably not motivated to make changes to specifications and engineering and longer OCI's: especially if its products are selling like hot cakes! In that case, the consumer is partially to blame.
Slightly dirty motor oil has been shown in several engineering tests to decrease the wear rate on internal engine parts. Its at first hard to believe, but clean oil does not protect as well as used motor oil, since the tiny, mostly carbon particles may be keeping the metal-to-metal scraping down to a minimum when hydrodynamic lubrication isn't present. Not sure how to physically explain it, but those who change oil too often are actually hurting their engine. A decent oil filter (i.e. Mobil1 EP oil filters or Amsoil EAO oil filters) keep the large mineral hard chunks out (silica, metallic particles), leaving just smaller particles of mostly carbon, I assume. ( The engineering tests just repeatedly measured the effects, and one can only speculate on the actual basis for the results.)
Other reasons to use a good synthetic and NOT change at 3,000 mostly center around cost/time/hassle (who needs it?). I have other hobbies.
It doesnt occur to most folks that sump size is part of the formula for the arrived at OEM recommended OCI.
So truly this brings the issue around to how one can forstall the wear. Since one MAJOR source of wear is so called "dry" cranking (some estimates are 55-75% of wear) then a "preoiler" is the ticket for now it will no longer be dry cranking but "lubricated" cranking. This also gets oil much quicker to the return side, again shorting the dry time problem. Wear created by oil on oil is very very low and can be easily solved by the by pass oil filter. This filter as most folks know, filters a much smaller particle size. Lastly in addition to synthetic oil and higher TBN, double to triple the sump size would extend OCI's 2 to 3 x's easy. So with all these in place, a 10,000 mile convention oil OCI in a Civic would be a no brainer to 20,000 up to 30,000 miles.
I'm still not quite sure what I'll do after 20k miles comes and goes. I do like the idea of synthetic oil, but with my driving style, it doesn't seem quite necessary to spring for the extra $ over the dino oil if the level of protection will be almost identical. I think both Shipo and Ruking have advised me to stick with dino. Luckily I still have a good year and a half to have to think about it. I do know that my local Tires Plus does use a "synthetic blend" which may or may not be better than dino.
The Sandman
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The Sandman
VW effectively requires synthetic in all their engines now. They don't state that directly, but the only oils that meet their specs are synthetics. We have the 2.5 engine, it has a 10,000 mile (or 12 mo.) OCI.
But then an obscure footnote says this is for normal driving and one of the non-normal criteria says "extreme cold". When I called and asked, they said extreme cold means less than 32 deg F. :surprise: ...I was thinking more like 0 would be extreme.
I have gotten an oil sample kit and next month will see what it shows after 11 months and about 7500 miles, including winter in WI...where the normal low is "extremely cold" for about 5 months of the year.
Then you must have missed quite a few vehicles under that Sun. Check out manuals from BMW, Mercedes-Benz and Porsche to name a few. The manual for both of my BMWs specifically states that "BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil" or "synthetic oils which have been approved" MUST be used in the engine. Also of note is that when BMW made the switch to synthetic oil, they extended the OCI of their engines to ~15,000 miles.
Best Regards,
Shipo
"
ruking1, Is that ASME? American Society of Mechanical Engineers? SME is either mining or metallurgical engineers.