Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/25 for details.
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/25 for details.
Options
Comments
First of all even on such an august thread as bobistheoilguy, there is not logitudinal study or experiment comparing oil analysis on the variable: oil filters. As a contrast there are numerous comparos on construction and so called quality differences. More importantly there is also no evidence of any statistical correlation as to whether those differences making measurable filtering differences. Another way to express this if a Pure One costs 8 dollars and the WallyMart SuperTech (made by Champion Labs) @2.07, which means one costs 3.86 x more: does it perform 3.86 x BETTER? AND what is the statisitical significance of BETTER-even 3.86?
Another is the oil filter is FIRST and foremost designed to be a bypass valve. This would imply in the worst case MAX oil flow is the FIRST priority. So really if one wants need to filter small/smaller the emphasis should be on bypass filters.
MY UPSHOT is along the consumer reports line of thinking, buy the reputed best on price. (commoditized)
Why don't all the world's truckers do this and gain 100 miles per fillup?
Or every car manufacturer and thus add 1 mpg to their EPA sticker?
Don't make sense that this is anything more than a clinical possibility, not a real world event. At least not to me (yet). :P
So for example, my 2004 Civic gets 29/38 epa. The 2006 Civic is 30/40 epa. Yet on another one of these boards, I get far better mpg on a lesser rated epa machine. I also go 20,000 miles between oci's with synthetic oil.
If one were to imply anything from the questions it is it next to impossible to make mpg gains. This is clearly not true.
Want an example? Race cars that use synthetic/conventional oil still get app 4 mpg. A trucker example most get 6 mpg. .5 mpg better which is considered by most to be immeasurable or just normal variation is indeed an 8% rise. What is a 4% rise? .25 mpg, again CLOSER to the thought of immeasurable or normal variation?
5% rise in MPG means nothing to me in a Scion xA. It's like the nickel I wouldn't bend down to pick up off the sidewalk, much less spend extra $$ for special oils, filters, etc. or even change my driving habits.
But to a trucker, the gallonage is significant from a 5% rise.
If I am making a 5% gain in mpg (in the case of 6 mpg (.3 mpg) I say WOO HOO. If I make a 5% gain in my TDI (50 mpg or 2.5 mpg) again WOO HOO!
But if I was a trucker that's 200 gallons of extra fuel a year, or $500 bucks in my personal pocket.
so gallonage varies with the vehicle, whereas percentage does not...percentage is too abstract to grasp (which suits marketers), but gallonage is very real for people.
You can see that in my numbers. If I tell you...you'll gain 5% in MPG if you switch to AMAZING OIL and our special ULTRA-CLEAN filter system! But if I tell you you'll saving 1.5 gallons of fuel a month, you wouldn't buy it.
Also the interesting (non) point I see in your overt point is the deck is almost totally stacked against the average driver if one goal is to decrease the cost per mile driven.
If for instance, as you say, I just rode my bike every Tuesday I could beat any gas saving product on the market by a wide margin! :P
You dont have to convince ME to save money. I can stretch a buck until it screams for mercy.
But what I was driving at here is this:
Any call for conservation needs to be expressed in terms that are readily digestible to the average car owner, and saying "gallons" rather than MPG is one way I was suggesting that. The only problem with that is sometimes it works against the marketing hype of "gas-saving" products.
What if I tried to sell a Prius with this pitch:
"Hey, typical car owner. For only $28,000 you can save 16 gallons of gas a month!"
I think I have clearly said ONE oil change, when 4 will do?
Most folks chose 4 !??
AND
at higher cost, more resources, more time, more work,..... yada, yada.
Anyway, just for fun let's calculate the savings differential on going 5K on conventional oil and 15K on Mobil 1, okay?
Lessee...let's price it out for a 5 quart capacity.
One 15K oil change with Mobil 1 + filter, DIY, equals say $43 ($6.99/qt for oil, + $7.99 decent filter).
3 oil changes (5K interval) with reg. oil at $3 quart + $7.99 filter = $68.97
So at the average of 12,000 miles per year, the savings is:
$69 minus $43 = $26 X .8 (12,000 miles per annum) = $20.80 per year or $1.73 a month using synthetic.
If we were to allow that alleged 1 mpg synthetic oil benefit on a car getting 30 mpg, we can add an additional $2.70 a month in gas savings.
Now if we add our time (labor) at say $25 an hour (what a mechanic might make) for a year, and if we say it takes a coherent intelligent person 1/2 hour to do an oil change, the person on a 15K OCI spends 30 minutes every 15,000 miles and the person on a 5K OCI spends 1.5 hours every 15,000 miles, so over a year there is a saving .8 of 1 hour or 48 minutes and thus $1.66 a month.
So given every possible benefit of every possible doubt, it looks like $6 a month is about all one could argue as the cost benefit of using synthetic, if we pay ourselves for our labor. In actual hard cash, it looks like we'd be lucky to save $5 a month.
That's okay but it's so small an amount that I tend to be apathetic about it, speaking for myself. It's hard to motivate oneself just on the money saved criterion.
So yes the qwiky lubes indicated that is 2k past their magic 3k cycles. Avg car is on the 5k cycle.
The real issue is the relatively inelastic need which translates to a higher over all demand for crude oil. As you know, a barrel of oil yields only so much lubricant. Using your 15,000 mile example you use 15 qts or 3.75 gals vs 1.25 gals or 3x more resources. If there are 235.4 M cars... that is a savings of 588.5 M gals of finished product SAVED per year, as a point of discussion. Given the ratios to crude that is a whole lot of barrels LESS
http://www.sanjosegasprices.com/crude_products.aspx
Lubricants= .46 gal per 42 gals of crude oil. (process gain of 2.47 gal)
This would 8.1521739 barrels of oil for 3.75 gals of finished lubricant product.
SAVED is 2.5 gal/.46= 5.4347826 barrels of finished lubricant.
No Way Out?
..."Today's reality is that vested interests in oil reserves and intangible costs rapidly increase threshold petroleum prices to more than $150 per barrel. Indeed, we found that the ownership of oil reserves was the biggest barrier to a corporation's investment in synthetic fuels. Oil corporations will invest in a U.S. alternative fuel industry only when their petroleum reserves are depleted to about the time it takes to build the alternative fuel infrastructure, or about two years of reserves."...
http://www.memagazine.org/supparch/pefeb05/nowayout/nowayout.html
Now I just go to Walmart, pick out my choice of semi-Synthetic oil(Motorcraft) and Motorcraft filter and get it changed for only $24.99
It is well worth it.
Personally, I'm a "died in the wool" fan of synthetic oil, however, if I had your driving profile and was going to use your six month OCI, I'd use Havoline oil and save my money.
Best Regards,
Shipo
EVERYONE who I know who has used a qwikie lube type place has had at least one major issue!!! This is really hard for me to understand. (as I DIY) But I have seen the puddles under folks cars' too many times to ignore it.
Are you comparing the Mobil One to a plain oil, Energy Conserving or Energy Conserving II oil?
The additives are what gives the oil the extra mpg. The additives can be put in regular oils. So I am not sure we can say it was the "Synthetic" that made the difference. See the links below.
If Mobil One gets better mpg, why doesn't Mobil advertise that on their web site?
When did you change tires? If you kept the original tires the entire test, the circumference of the tire would have changed. Your tires would need more revolutions to go the same distance. The odometer would have recorded the extra revolutions as extra miles. If you have 205/65/15 tires with a diameter of 25.6 inches, a loss of 5/32" in tread would result in a 10/32" change in diameter. That is about a 1.2% change. Thus it would appear that you gained 1.2% in mpg when in reality the only change was your tires got smaller. Or at least that is the way I remember it working in the good old days
http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/Oils1.html
http://www.peterverdonedesigns.com/motoroil.htm
If you read what I actually did, it was not as you described. It was... as I described. This of course does not mean you can not conduct your own (lab) experiment IAW your stated protocol. So would this mean you would want to conduct your own test and post the results? Indeed it would be interesting to hear your results!
I am now on the down side of 40,000 miles and the mpg is slightly better. On another car I am on the down side of 90,000 miles and the mileage is ACTUALLY better!! On this car I use 25,000 mile OCI's.
I have no intention of going back to conventional oil. Even I would have questions about running conventional oil to 20,000 miles. So indeed I do not know what the mpg would have been with an additional 10,000 miles on conventional oil (to make 20,000 miles OCI) . And I would SWAG I would get 1-3 mpg less,and probably less mpg between 10,000 and 20,000 miles!
To answer your question about the additives, I do knot know why the do not put the additives they put in synthetic oil in conventional oil. But until they do it would be hard to separate them, don't you think? Nor do I know any one who markets them differently so you can blend them. Do you?
As to mpg and why Mobil One does not advertise it, I truly do not know. I have no affiliation with them at all.
Tires are oem 185/70/14.
I think if you read the new car sticker on (your/mine) car, the actual mileage is based on conventional fill. The epa is 29/38. It was NOT based on Mobil One (synthetic)
The range is thus: 24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39,40,41,42,43,44,
So the tank to tank performance in the bandwidth I operate in has been between 38-42 in the everyday commute. In the same commute using conventional oil, it was -2 mpg (average) less. At the FIRST tank full (10,000 miles plus) which continues all the way to over 42,000 miles the mpg jumped. So if what you are implying is true, then there is some magic thing going on at 10,000 miles going on that only you know about. So spill!
On the thread Honda Civic, Real World MPG there are folks that report anywhere from 22 mpg-41 mpg. My swag since the majority do not report synthetic vs conventional are probably using conventional oil.
..."Advantages
The technical advantages of synthetic motor oils include:
Measurably better low and high temperature viscosity performance
Better chemical & shear stability resulting in improved lubricating film strength
Decreased evaporative loss
Reduced friction
Resistance to oil sludge problems
Reduced engine deposits in some applications (Turbos)
Possibility of extended drain intervals
[edit] Benefits
Use of synthetic lubricants gives benefits such as:
Better fuel efficiency
Instantly lowered engine temperature for ~ 30 deg. F
Diminished engine 'cold start' and improved overall wear protection
Reduced exhaust emissions
Natural resource preservation and monetary savings due to extended drains and less energy used
[edit] Disadvantages
The disadvantages of synthetic motor oils include:
Initial costs are usually multiplied by 3 compared to petroleum based oils
Potential decomposition problems in certain chemical environments
Potential stress cracking of plastic componentry like POM (polyoxymethylene) in the presence of PAO's.
Initial costs are usually mitigated by extended change intervals, but each particular user may find as useful confirmation of that through used oil analysis (UOA).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_oil
Nothing really new here. Synthetic oil and fuels were done by the Germans before the start of WW2, min of 70-87 years or app 3.5 generations ago. Thankfully, the technology has gotten better.
How I get involved with it was synthetic oil use in bombers, tankers and fighters. I had a NDI shop (non destruct inspection shop) reporting to me, where we did analysis on (among other things) used oil. The data of course was uploaded into a fleet wide data base for the obvious and not so obvious purposes.
I wouldn't even go there. What the Germans called "Synthetic Oil" in WWII and what we currently call Synthetic Oil are two very different things. If I remember correctly, the Germans were essentially "Making" conventional lubricating oil out of a particularly rich coal. It was considered "Synthetic" because it didn't come via the conventional crude refining process. A far cry from the PAO based oils that we today consider "Synthetic".
Best Regards,
Shipo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyalphaolefin
Why Honda? Well it does have the reputation (on edmunds.com and many others) of being both an economy AND economic "small" car to own and operate. My nexus being, I actually own one
You would think most folks really should understand fuel MPG parameters "in the real world vs laboratory or test conditions (EPA ratings)" is really between the headsets or probably more correctly between the right and left feet, but I am beginning to think that assumption is/has been false.
So as an example epa 29 city /38 highway RANGE of between 22-44 MPG
So the nexus with synthetic oil is: no rock solid gurantee!? So when I post 1-3 mpg range with an average of 2 mpg, it is as posted, what I got. Why folks attack it is another thing beyond me. They should just post theirs and we can SWAG the variables.
I have read that the EPA is going to come out with new numbers that more closely reflect actual driving. Probably long overdue. I know with my '06 Civic, I'm on the low end of the city numbers as I hardly do any highway driving and my commute is about 10 miles of stop and go, not optimum driving conditions to get the 30 mpg's the EPA figure says on the sticker. But I knew this going in when buying my Civic.
The Sandman
If you just split the difference in EPA ratings and include a plus or minus fudge factor for your own driving, you'll be darn close to what you're really going to get. You live in Kansas? You'll probably do better than someone in San Francisco or LA. Lead foot? Deduct accordingly. Short commute? Frigid weather most of the year? Multiple drivers?
Another take; your drive is VERY VERY VERY tough on almost all parameters, the nexus being the oil. I would swag your oil hold a lot of water and unburnt byproducts vs a Kia Optima that sees more highway miles. A very good reason to go to a synthetic oil like Mobil One, Redline, Amsoil, ELF, to name a few. Indeed my daughters drove 2 miles R/T to school as one of the tasks and got better mileage than 12.2 in a Toyota Landcruiser and it is a I6
The Sandman
Indeed, my daughters' drove 2 miles R/T to high school as one of the tasks and got better mileage than 12.2 mpg in a Toyota Landcruiser and they are I6's
to clarify:
I have let Mobil One oil go 3 years (in one recent instance) to get 15,000 mile OCI's. Again it passed all "smog only" tests. The innards have been looked at and pronounced pristine by Toyota dealer mechanics. They stated it had factory adjustments and original machining markings, in trying to secure a couple hundred dollar valve adjustment at 60k on one and 60 and 120k miles on another at the recommended intervals.
Can you explain to me what these are. Are they required? Under warrranty? I'm not sure what you're saying.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Newer I6's again in my case, 91,94,96,97, need valve checks and if necessary valve adjustments at 60,000 mile intervals.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The new V-8 Lexus engines, i.e. hydralic lifters, in the TLC's are really NEAT. I have also heard they are relatively bullet proof. I have driven a few (app 500 miles) and do like them.
On the Interstates, though, I'll easily exceed the rated 30 by 2 to 4 miles per gallon, at a steady indicated 73 (actual 70) mph. Any interstate trip longer than about 30 will show this kind of result.
Interestingly, the last three cars starting with a 91 Mazda Protege all pretty much fit this type of real world experience - our local suburban equals the urban rating and our interstate driving always exceeds the EPA rating. If I had your Kia, I would be unhappy with those results.