Midsize Sedans 2.0

ab348 · July 2017

@berri - Like you I do wonder about the long-term with these small turbo engines. Part of that is ancient memories of '80s and '90s Turbo engines of course and the problems they faced, like the former co-worker who bought a Saab Turbo convertible and drove it mostly to and from the shop for turbo-related woes. There seems to be a nagging thought in the back of my mind when I drive my ATS (and earlier when I had my Regal turbo) of how such a little engine can put out so much power. Will it still be able to do that 10 or 12 years from now? I know from painful experience about the heat these generate too. On the ATS the oil dipstick is located next to the head cover right above the turbo and you cannot even touch that after the engine has run for a while. The heat also cooked the silver paint off the lettering on the engine cover.

The power is remarkable though. The first thing I noticed when I test drove that 2017 ATS with the 3.6 the dealer tried to sell me was that despite that engine being rated for a lot more HP, it having an 8-speed auto trans instead of my car's 6-speed, and being RWD instead of AWD, it felt slower off the line than my car. The low-end torque these little turbo 4s produce is addicting.

akirby · July 2017

Turbo engines do not run at higher RPM. The turbo provides more air and therefore more oxygen for combustion at the same RPM providing more power.

Turbodiesels have been around for decades and nobody questions their longevity because they're designed to be turbocharged from the ground up. The same is true for these new gasoline turbo engines - they're specifically designed for turbocharging.

The only real issue so far is sooty tailpipes and deposits in the intake system due to a combination of no fuel in the intake to wash the back of the valves due to direct injection (not a turbo issue per se) and needing to run the fuel mixture rich for head cooling. The latter has been largely fixed on Ford's latest ecoboost engines.

The tradeoff for no turbo lag and gobs of torque off the line is that it runs out of steam at higher RPM. But I think it's a good tradeoff for everyday driving.

Michaell · July 2017

I've lived in CO for almost 25 years, and with only one or two exceptions, I've driven 4-cylinder cars as my daily driver ('93 Accord, '99 New Beetle, '03 Focus, '06 ION, '13 Elantra GT).

My latest lease is a VW Jetta with the 1.4L turbocharged engine. 150HP, but 184 ft/lbs of torque. Compared to all the other cars I've had, this thing is a rocket. I am completely addicted to the low end grunt provided by this engine, even if it takes a moment or two for the turbo to spool up.

In 11 months and 5000 miles of 80% city driving, I'm averaging about 29.5 MPG, a couple better than the city number on the factory sticker. I've seen MPG as high as 40+ on some highway runs.

I'm not sure if I'll ever go back to a naturally aspirated engine again.

roadburner · July 2017

The N55 I6 in my 2 Series makes maximum torque from 1400-4500 rpm and maximum hp from 5800-6000 rpm. The current B46 2 liter four makes 248 hp at 5800 rpm and 258 lb-ft of torque from 1450-4800 rpm. I like NA motors as much as anyone but it's hard to beat a turbocharged motor's ability to deliver a lot of usable power while still returning excellent fuel economy.

stickguy · July 2017

I like the low down torque. Peaky motors are not my thing since I never rev up that high.

roadburner · July 2017

The M42 in my 318ti is rather high strung; that's why it has to have a manual gearbox. You have to keep the motor wound pretty tight to make rapid progress. In contrast, the N55 in the 2er is perfectly suited to the ZF eight speed automatic. So equipped the car is both faster and more economical than the six speed manual.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2017

Michaell said:
I've lived in CO for almost 25 years, and with only one or two exceptions, I've driven 4-cylinder cars as my daily driver ('93 Accord, '99 New Beetle, '03 Focus, '06 ION, '13 Elantra GT).

My latest lease is a VW Jetta with the 1.4L turbocharged engine. 150HP, but 184 ft/lbs of torque. Compared to all the other cars I've had, this thing is a rocket. I am completely addicted to the low end grunt provided by this engine, even if it takes a moment or two for the turbo to spool up.

In 11 months and 5000 miles of 80% city driving, I'm averaging about 29.5 MPG, a couple better than the city number on the factory sticker. I've seen MPG as high as 40+ on some highway runs.

I'm not sure if I'll ever go back to a naturally aspirated engine again.

Well where you live is a perfect match for a turbo engine. What took you so long?

Michaell · July 2017

Mr_Shiftright said:

Michaell said:
I've lived in CO for almost 25 years, and with only one or two exceptions, I've driven 4-cylinder cars as my daily driver ('93 Accord, '99 New Beetle, '03 Focus, '06 ION, '13 Elantra GT).

My latest lease is a VW Jetta with the 1.4L turbocharged engine. 150HP, but 184 ft/lbs of torque. Compared to all the other cars I've had, this thing is a rocket. I am completely addicted to the low end grunt provided by this engine, even if it takes a moment or two for the turbo to spool up.

In 11 months and 5000 miles of 80% city driving, I'm averaging about 29.5 MPG, a couple better than the city number on the factory sticker. I've seen MPG as high as 40+ on some highway runs.

I'm not sure if I'll ever go back to a naturally aspirated engine again.
Well where you live is a perfect match for a turbo engine. What took you so long?

Was waiting for the confluence of affordability and availability.

berri · July 2017

My latest lease is a VW Jetta with the 1.4L turbocharged engine. 150HP, but 184 ft/lbs of torque. Compared to all the other cars I've had, this thing is a rocket. I am completely addicted to the low end grunt provided by this engine, even if it takes a moment or two for the turbo to spool up.

Ah, you guys are middle aged adolescents

explorerx4 · July 2017

I've had a couple of Fusion's with turbo 4's. My 2013 with the 2.0 was rated at 26 combined. I averaged 28.5 mpg.
My current Fusion is rated @27 combined. I am averaging 27.5. It's only been a bit over 4k miles in 8 1/2 months. Until a couple of weeks ago it's longest trip was about 90 miles round trip.
Drove it 100 miles today, and the computer read 34+, so I think it will do well on a real road trip.
Turbo engines are great when you have a lot of hills. They make a lot of low end torque, so it don't slow down going up a hill like a naturally aspirated engine.
Fusion's are heavier than most others in it's class.

backy · July 2017

benjaminh said:
Compact sales for June:

Corolla 31,051 -4.5%

Civic 30,909 -2.8%

Sentra 22,042 +8.7%

Focus 15,575 -20.1%

Elantra 13,297 -68.6%

Cruze 12,828 -31.3%

Forte 11,387 +19.5%

Jetta 9,999 +16.1%

Impreza 7,858 +57.4%

Sonic 6,550 -13.6%

Mazda3 6,473 -22.9%

The big plunge in Elantra sales is hard to fathom, unless Hyundai is discounting Sonatas so much that people are going that way instead of the Elantra. But Elantra + Forte puts Hyundai/Kia in 3rd in this group, not too bad. I think the Forte is a sleeper in this group (but then, I have a Forte5)... nice styling and equipment for the price, and way better than the Sentra, Focus, and maybe the Corolla IMO. The new Impreza is doing well, but the new Cruze isn't. The drop on the 3 surprises me, as it gets a lot of critical acclaim despite its relatively old design and looks & drives great.

m6user · July 2017

Keep in mind this is one month vs the same month last year.....not YTD. A lot of things can impact one months sales including the number of full and partial weekends, rebates, rental and fleet sales, new model introduction and the list goes on. YTD or rolling average would provide a much better picture and wouldn't jump around as much.

iluvmysephia1 · July 2017

backy, when did you score a Kia Forte5? Nice going! I rode in a friend's 2013 Kia Forte5 in Alamogordo, NM, in 2014 and liked the car a lot.
You don't have any pics ta pop on here, do ya?

Sandman6472 · July 2017

Was also afraid to get a turbo after reading a lot of bad press but once I drove both the A3 and the Golf, the low end power had me. Having the "S" mode in place when I take off is just icing on the cake! Shift into "S" before I get on the highway and let 'er rip. Not necessary on the back roads leading me out of the residential area we live in as never get much about 45 or so anyways.
But, I do tend to take care of it and having been changing out the synthetic at about 9K miles even though 10K is called for. Even that seems a bit too long for me and will probably go down closer to 7.5K now that I have nothing pre-paid left. Just want to keep the engine running up to it's peak performance. And yes, get a big grin when I turn the key on in my Golf no matter what I've driven at work that day. I just love it...still!! All's well at 32,500 miles!

The Sandman

benjaminh · July 2017

The new 2018 Honda Accord is slightly larger, has a more-powerful t engine, and standard safety tech. From Motor Trend:

Although the wheelbase is longer, the overall length is 0.39 inch shorter, pushing the wheels farther toward the corners. The car is 0.39 inch wider with a wider wheel track, the height has dropped 0.6 inch, and occupants sit lower in the car, so there is still ample headroom and shoulder room. Rear seats have been pushed back for an extra 1.9 inches of legroom. The overall passenger volume of 105.7 cubic feet is an increase of 2.5 cubic feet, and there is more trunk space.

benjaminh · July 2017

Honda's press release:

http://hondanews.com/releases/dramatic-design-of-reimagined-2018-honda-accord-signals-new-direction-for-america-s-retail-best-selling-midsize-sedan

Jul 14, 2017 - DETROIT, MI
Next-generation Honda design, packaging and proportion
Interior space and quality that exceeds the midsize class
New powertrain lineup: turbocharged and electrified performance
Lighter, more rigid body and new chassis design
Honda Sensing® technology standard on all models and trims
New Accord Hybrid to be made in Ohio
Honda today showcased a new direction for America's retail best-selling midsize sedan1 with the world debut of a more stylish, sporty and premium 2018 Honda Accord that launches this fall. The world debut event held today in Detroit can be viewed at http://www.youtube.com/honda.

The 10th-generation Accord is new from the ground up and features a lighter and more rigid body structure, an advanced new chassis design, two all-new, high-torque direct-injected and turbocharged engines, the world's first 10-speed automatic transmission for a front-drive

benjaminh · July 2017

Because of the superior rear window design on the 2018 Camry, which allows betters rear visibility on the driver's side in back, I now prefer that model to the 2018 Accord, and might consider the Camry as a replacement for my wife's 2013 Accord when the time comes.

stickguy · July 2017

the new Camry does sound impressive. But so does the Accord. And IMO you can't tell by the pictures how the visibility will be. Need to see that from the driver's seat! But pretty safe guess, rear visibility will stink like it does in almost all new cars.

wayne21 · July 2017

With the updates they've made I wonder if they got rid of the wind/road noise. That has always been an issue for honda regardless of model and honda is notorious for that. We now have a '16 acura RDX and it has lots of wind noise. I would think that honda would have addressed this issue years ago.

stickguy · July 2017

well, they mentioned in the intro reviews more acoustic sound deadening, etc. so probably quieter. Though I never noticed it being an issue on my cars. We have an RDX too and I don't notice any real road or wind noise, and found my 2005 accord plenty quiet too. Some tire noise on certain road surfaces, but overall, just fine.

wayne21 · July 2017

Our previous accord and our current RDX both sound like the window is open a crack. I have noticed the same thing when riding with friends in a variety of honda products. Perhaps with sedan sales declining honda's acoustic sound deadening will help.

benjaminh · July 2017

Our 2002 Accord and 2008 Accord both had significant wind/road noise, although otherwise were very good cars. Our 2013 and 2016 Accords are much improved and are significantly quieter. And it's clear the 2018 Accord will improve on the current generation.

I like the dashboard of the 2018 Accord....Seems like maybe a little influence from Audi?

ab348 · July 2017

I don't see a gear shifter there. Looks like they have gone to pushbuttons on the console? Not sure I like that.

benjaminh · July 2017

ab348 said:
I don't see a gear shifter there. Looks like they have gone to pushbuttons on the console? Not sure I like that.

Yeah, not sure how I feel about that either. Pictured is the top-of-the-line Touring model with the new 2.0 turbo and the new 10-speed transmission. My guess is that the other models will have a more standard shifter? But I'm not sure.

AndroidAuto/AppleCarPlay is probably standard across the lineup, which means that even the "base" LX gets a tablet-like screen as we see here.

I don't see how Honda avoids a significant price increase for the LX. The 2017 Accord LX CVT lists for $23,255 before destination. But HondaSensing, which currently costs $1000 more, is apparently going to be standard. Plus AndroidAuto, as just mentioned, is probably also standard. Seems like you'd need at least a $1500 price increase just for those two things. And then you add the new standard turbo engine, etc., etc., and it seems like this is going to be a more expensive car.

But this segment is so competitive, I don't see how they can raise the price a huge amount. Too many people probably won't even consider a standard midsize car that starts at $25k—or would they? Probably Honda is just going to let go some of the lower end of the midsize market. Already in the real world you can get a comparably-equipped Sonata for maybe c. $3000 less than an Accord (even though their lists prices are very close), and I'm guessing that gap is going to grow significantly in a few months.

stickguy · July 2017

the non-touring have a different dash, and the 1.5l engine has a normal shift lever. Only the 10 speed with the 2.0T gets the Acura style buttons.

also, the intro article said to expect about the same price points. The class is so competitive, they pretty much have to keep the price down. Good for us buyers!

stickguy · July 2017

I assume that by December, you will be able to get a new accord or camry (both brand new designs for 2018) way back of MSRP, just like on the 2017s. The Sonata is a refresh for 2018, and you know they will be pricing aggressively to try and sell more. If the Accord EX has all the features I want finally, and can be had street pricing in the low-mid 20s,will be a great value.

stickguy · July 2017

I actually really like the new TLX, and have it on my list to look at, but I suspect the Accord is going to drive similarly, be just as well equipped, and blow it out of the water in terms of value. And MPG!

benjaminh · July 2017

stickguy said:
I assume that by December, you will be able to get a new accord or camry (both brand new designs for 2018) way back of MSRP, just like on the 2017s. The Sonata is a refresh for 2018, and you know they will be pricing aggressively to try and sell more. If the Accord EX has all the features I want finally, and can be had street pricing in the low-mid 20s,will be a great value.

I think the 2018 Accord EX will probably have an msrp of c. $29k (the current one is 27k—I know, since I just bought that exact model a year ago). Although you'll probably be able to get 2k off by December, by the time you add TTL you'll still be looking at close to 30k when all is said and done imho.

benjaminh · July 2017

stickguy said:
I actually really like the new TLX, and have it on my list to look at, but I suspect the Accord is going to drive similarly, be just as well equipped, and blow it out of the water in terms of value. And MPG!

The 2017 Accord is rated 30 mpg combined. The 2017 Acura TLX is pretty close at 28.

My guess is that the 2018 Accord will probably get about 32 mpg. Depending on how much you drive, that's probably only a difference of about $400 a year or so in gas compared to a TLX.

stickguy · July 2017

From what I read, it really doesn't sound like prices are changing much. if the current one is 27, maybe it goes up to 27.5? really wish they had released actual pricing and details about the trim levels too, but have to wait on that. At least I am in no hurry.

benjaminh · July 2017

stickguy said:
From what I read, it really doesn't sound like prices are changing much. if the current one is 27, maybe it goes up to 27.5? really wish they had released actual pricing and details about the trim levels too, but have to wait on that. At least I am in no hurry.

My guess is that there's only a small price increase for "comparably-equipped" trim levels. The current EX doesn't have Honda Sensing standard. Without Honda Sensing the 2017 Accord EX msrp is $27,505 with destination. Adding HondaSensing is an additional $1000. So the current comparably equipped model is $28.5. There will probably be a $500 increase for the turbo, etc. which is why I guessed a $29k msrp with destination for the 2018 Accord EX.

ab348 · July 2017

stickguy said:
the non-touring have a different dash, and the 1.5l engine has a normal shift lever. Only the 10 speed with the 2.0T gets the Acura style buttons.

also, the intro article said to expect about the same price points. The class is so competitive, they pretty much have to keep the price down. Good for us buyers!

Are those both 2018 pics? Because those are two totally different dashes. Even the steering wheel is different.

pensfan83 · July 2017

stickguy said:

I actually really like the new TLX, and have it on my list to look at, but I suspect the Accord is going to drive similarly, be just as well equipped, and blow it out of the water in terms of value. And MPG!

I've put the TLX at the top of the sedan list. The look has grown on me... it's a nice understated design. Plus the value that it carries is undeniable. I would need to move up a trim level on the Audi to get the features the TLX has standard. I would probably put an Accord on my list except that I want all wheel drive.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2017

What's the difference in the Accord between: Lane Departure Warning and Road Departure Mitigation? Is one passive and one active?

benjaminh · July 2017

ab348 said:

stickguy said:
the non-touring have a different dash, and the 1.5l engine has a normal shift lever. Only the 10 speed with the 2.0T gets the Acura style buttons.

also, the intro article said to expect about the same price points. The class is so competitive, they pretty much have to keep the price down. Good for us buyers!

Are those both 2018 pics? Because those are two totally different dashes. Even the steering wheel is different.

On the left is the 2017 Accord, EX and above.

benjaminh · July 2017

Mr_Shiftright said:
What's the difference in the Accord between: Lane Departure Warning and Road Departure Mitigation? Is one passive and one active?

I think that's exactly right. Both can be shut off if desired.

benjaminh · July 2017

More about the 2018 Accord's new engines:

"The new 1.5-liter, 16-valve DOHC direct-injected turbo with dual Variable Timing Control (dual VTC) produces a peak 192 horsepower (HP) at 5,500 rpm and 192 lb-ft. of torque from 1,500 to 5,000 rpm, up from 185 HP at 6,400 rpm and 181 lb.-ft. at 3,900 rpm on the existing, normally aspirated 2.4-liter model. The new 1.5-liter turbo is mated to a Honda continuously variable automatic transmission (CVT) or, in Sport trim, to a CVT or a 6-speed manual transmission (6MT).

The Accord can also be equipped with a new 2.0-liter 16-valve DOHC direct-injected turbo with i-VTEC® valvetrain paired with a 10-speed automatic transmission or, in Sport trim, to the 10AT or an available 6MT. The new 2.0-liter turbo, sharing much of its design with the race-bred 2017 Civic Type R, produces 252 HP at 6,500 rpm and 273 lb.-ft. of torque from 1,500 to 4,000 rpm, compared to 278 HP at 6,200 rpm and 252 lb.-ft. at 4,900 rpm for the 3.5-liter V6 that it replaces.

Both turbocharged engines utilize a host of new technologies, including high-efficiency low-inertia turbos, variable valve timing, low-pressure-loss air intake and high-accuracy direct injection, to deliver immediate and powerful response along while still anticipated to receive top level fuel economy ratings. The two new automatic transmissions – the CVT for the 1.5-liter engine and new 10AT for the 2.0-liter engine – take greater advantage of available torque while maximizing quietness and efficiency during highway cruising. The redesigned CVT has an 11 percent lower ratio compared to the current version for more powerful launch performance, while the new 10AT is 22 lbs. lighter, has a 68 percent wider overall ratio range with a 43 percent lower first gear, and a 17 percent taller top gear compared to the current Accord’s six-speed automatic. "

So, a lot of work and $ to make it faster and more efficient.

benjaminh · July 2017

Wonder when exactly the 2018 Accord will go on sale....?

stickguy · July 2017

The picture I grabbed said 2018. I did not look that close, but the non-touring will have a normal shift lever, and I believe won't have the "ipad on the dash" set up.

benjaminh · July 2017

stickguy said:
The picture I grabbed said 2018. I did not look that close, but the non-touring will have a normal shift lever, and I believe won't have the "ipad on the dash" set up.

I think the "ipad on the dash" is probably going to be standard across the line. Here's what Honda's press release says. Normally if something is only available on upper level models they say that....

"The tech-savvy and easy-to-use 2018 Accord cabin also features an all-new HMI that includes an ultra-slim 7-inch TFT driver’s meter and a new 8-inch Display Audio touchscreen interface with physical volume and tuning knobs and more intuitive, smartphone-like features and functionality including customizable app tiles and home-screen shortcuts, along with Apple CarPlay™ and Android Auto™ compatibility. The Accord also will offer the next-generation of HondaLink telematics with new capabilities including emergency roadside assistance, remote locking/unlocking and engine start, stolen vehicle tracking, remote diagnostics, geofencing, speed tracking and more."

The Touring does have a "head's up display" that's only available on that model, but I think that's projecting speed, navi, etc. onto the windshield in front of the driver.

stickguy · July 2017

thanks. Some of the previews were a bit fuzzy on some of the details, and entirely possible I jumbled a few thinks up in my own head! In any case, I like the new dash well enough. I can certainly live with it.

benjaminh · July 2017

The all-new 2018 Camry has a list price of $24,000 even before destination for the LE. So with destination the msrp is c. $25k. I think Honda will aim for something very close to that for the 2018 Accord LX.

I actually find the 2018 Camry LE slightly more appealing in terms of style compared to the 2018 Accord. And, as mentioned, in terms of rear visibility the 2018 Camry is superior when compared to the 2018 Accord. That final little rear window on the driver's side for the new Accord looks functional from the outside, and when you're sitting next to it in the back seat you can certainly see out of it. But from the driver's seat window like that become almost useless I've found, because you just can't see out of them. As a result, the driver has a large blind spot on their left behind them. Yes, I know, if your mirrors are positioned perfectly and you know how to use them this is mitigated but personally, I'd rather be able to glance back and know for sure what's behind me. The 2018 Camry is now alone among midsize sedans in making that a cinch...

backy · July 2017

iluvmysephia1 said:
backy, when did you score a Kia Forte5? Nice going! I rode in a friend's 2013 Kia Forte5 in Alamogordo, NM, in 2014 and liked the car a lot.
You don't have any pics ta pop on here, do ya?

March 2016. Mine is the design that debuted in 2014, so it's different from your friend's. This isn't my car but it's exactly like mine.

iluvmysephia1 · July 2017

Looks great, backy! Thanks for posting the pic. I am liking the Kia Forte5 more and more. What do you think of the new 2018 Kia Rio hatch and sedan?

benjaminh · July 2017

Camry sales peaked in 2007, with sales of 473,108 cars. In 2007 Honda was able to sell 392,231 Accords, which was good for second place—but a rather distant second. Fast forward to 2017, and so far, year-to-date, the Camry is still ahead with sales of 176,897 in the first six months of this year, while Accord is a closer second at 160,091. Since Honda sells very few Accords as rentals, and Toyota sells a lot of Camrys as rentals (c. 20%?), Honda has claimed that retail buyers prefer the current Accord.

Anyway the 30+ year all-out battle between these two midsize cars is seemingly going to be fiercer than ever starting in a few months. Right now the last of the 2017 Camrys and Accords are being sold at discount prices, but already production of the 2018 Camry has begun at Toyota's huge factory in Kentucky. Honda's huge Accord factory in Ohio won't start production for another couple of months.

Anyway, which of these cars do you think will be the winner with customers within a declining midsize market? Each company has seemingly thrown billions of dollars of engineering muscle into making these the best midsize cars ever. Which one do you think will win, and why?

I'll try to compare what we know so far about the 2018 Camry and 2018 Accord in terms of features, interior room and trunk space, engines and transmissions, handling, and the very subjective area of styling. Hope some others will join in with their thoughts as well....

stickguy · July 2017

should not be too long until some of the car magazines (and various online sources) do a heads up comparison of those 2. The rest of the large mid size class is likely to be irrelevant by that point.

[Deleted User] · July 2017

nyccarguy said:

cski said:

fushigi said:
We've become a sedan / SUV household. Wife likes smaller cars (currently driving a '12 Elantra) but I really like the CUV/SUV category. Easier entry/exit and higher driving seating position are, for me, much nicer than lowering myself to get in and having to basically climb out of a sedan. I've a bum knee so it takes substantially more effort - and some pain - to deal with a car v. something that rides at CUV height. I don't care much that fuel economy is worse as I average only 8K or so miles a year.

Even with a CVT my QX60 is plenty fast; C&D clocked it at 7.1 seconds to 60. For '17, Infiniti/Nissan bumped the 3.5 to 295HP/270ft-lb so there's power to spare. It's only turning around 2100 RPMs at 80MPH and 2400 at 90. With the 3rd row in use.
I am sorry, but I have become confused by Infiniti's naming system. I swore I saw a Q60 on the highway and it was a slinky sports sedan.
Your eyes are playing tricks on you (or some dope re-badged his sedan), but the Q60 is a coupe. The dealer where I bought my CPO 2015 Q40 has this helpful guide posted on their website: http://www.pepeinfiniti.com/infiniti-model-name-changes.htm

If you take a look at my signature line, it says 2015 Infiniti ~~G37X~~ Q40 AWD.

Hey, thanks for the clear-up without being mean or defensive. A Infinity Q-car used to stand for their top end model, I am familiar with the value and performance of the G37 and the x moniker being AWD.

However, I am getting older and so are my kids. One has left the nest since I have been posting, and now the old 2012 Optima looks, and feels,,,,,tired. I can tell you that the A/C has blown the high pressure hose 3 times in 59,000 miles, and it is MY fault. There is too much traffic here in DC/VA and once we break free, 50% of the male drivers go for broke until their common sense kicks in and 98% slow down. I have little use for common sense. I learn the hard way. It is how I am built. But I am 46 now, so I wear my belt, and I have a GPS based head up display app on my phone with a giant digital speedometer (if you so choose that view). The problem with the Optima I/P is the deep tunnel electronic gauges and too many hash marks on the speedo. So, by the time I get my speed I have taken my eyes off the road for 2 to 4 seconds. That is insane here or anywhere.

I am proud to say that since I set up the display, I have had no tickets. 4 years have gone by. No tickets. I never exceed 69mph....going for broke breaks my car and my wallet. I am not insane, so I am going to pass on the Mustang and buy a 4cyl Accord Sport. Automatic. In the hands of a person with my personality, a Mustang would be a 2600lb weapon, and I always think about my daughters every time I see a pedestrian, or get egged on by some spoiled teenager in an 89 vette. I am done taking chances, blowing high pressure hoses, and killing engines.
Easier said than done. But it must be done.

[Deleted User] · July 2017

I do have one other comment. I bought a brake upgrade, and it stops the car WAY faster, and without the mush. So for $20 bucks less than stock brakes I installed slotted cross-drilled, zinc coated rotors and composite pads. No more fade, and the ABS doesn't need to intervene every 5 miles. It's overkill for 200hp, or is it? How much is everyone's safety worth?

benjaminh · July 2017

stickguy said:
should not be too long until some of the car magazines (and various online sources) do a heads up comparison of those 2. The rest of the large mid size class is likely to be irrelevant by that point.

I think you're probably right that most of the rest of the midsize cars are going to be rather second class in a few months....

suydam · July 2017

I've often had Corollas as rentals but not seen Camry rentals very much.

Midsize Sedans 2.0

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