Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous

henryn · June 2018

qbrozen said:

1% of MSRP

Ah, that does make a difference, MSRP versus sales price. A big difference, in this case. You'll have to forgive my ignorance, I've never leased, and most likely never will as long as I live in a state where you have to pay 6.25% sales tax up front, even on a lease. Here in Texas, if the sale price was, just for example, $30k, then sales tax would run you another $1,875. Divide that by 24 months (length of the lease), gives you another $78 a month. Runs your average monthly cost up to $336 plus $78 is $414 a month.

qbrozen · June 2018

That may explain why I sometimes see posts about deals exclusive to TX.

pensfan83 · June 2018

nyccarguy said:
No Sports Package = No Sport Seats = No thank-you

I would like them too but if the car's overall condition and price made up for their absence, I could live without them.

Michaell · June 2018

qbrozen said:
That may explain why I sometimes see posts about deals exclusive to TX.

Texas will sometimes offer tax incentives, bringing the tax rate down to 1.25%, for leases. Doesn't seem to be much pattern on it, though it's mostly seen with luxury brands.

28firefighter · June 2018

Michaell said:

That may explain why I sometimes see posts about deals exclusive to TX.
Texas will sometimes offer tax incentives, bringing the tax rate down to 1.25%, for leases. Doesn't seem to be much pattern on it, though it's mostly seen with luxury brands.

Agreed. Some of the most aggressive deals I’ve seen on luxury leases have come from Texas because of tax credits - especially on the Alfa models. They were doing $299/month, $299 driveoffs (including tax) on a base Giulia and $399/month, $399/month driveoffs on Stelvio months before anyone else nationally.

stickguy · June 2018

This actually seems like a really good deal. Loaded car, very reasonable miles, for the price. Should get a lot of life out of it.

http://www.royaleasing.com/detail-2009-hyundai-azera-limited-used-17801065.html

Michaell · June 2018

28firefighter said:

Michaell said:

That may explain why I sometimes see posts about deals exclusive to TX.
Texas will sometimes offer tax incentives, bringing the tax rate down to 1.25%, for leases. Doesn't seem to be much pattern on it, though it's mostly seen with luxury brands.

Agreed. Some of the most aggressive deals I’ve seen on luxury leases have come from Texas because of tax credits - especially on the Alfa models. They were doing $299/month, $299 driveoffs (including tax) on a base Giulia and $399/month, $399/month driveoffs on Stelvio months before anyone else nationally.

Was this for 24 or 36 month leases on the Alfas?

stickguy · June 2018

For $299/$299, I would take one. Probably be afraid to take it very far though.

ab348 · June 2018

Those 1st-gen Azeras had suspension problems IIRC.

stickguy · June 2018

I do know that 2009s had updated suspension and steering.

corvette · June 2018

Good article here that explains some of the targeted ads I get after looking at the links you guys post here.

stickguy · June 2018

I find it amusing to look at a link from Breld or Michael, and next time I log on am getting ads from Denver area.

henryn · June 2018

That Azera does look nice. I think I would probably move on up to a Genesis if I were moving in that direction.

Here's a 2012 Genesis for $9,799, should make someone a very nice used car.

https://autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?listingId=483195369&zip=77429&makeCode1=HYUND&modelCode1=GENESIS&dealerId=625641

roadburner · June 2018

corvette said:
Good article here that explains some of the targeted ads I get after looking at the links you guys post here.

I almost used a similar ad strategy in my campaign; a company I spoke with matches IP addresses to physical addresses, and cross-references the results to voter data(registration and voting frequency. Next thing you know a "RB for Commonwealth's Attorney" banner ad pops up on the targeted voter's PC or laptop...

stickguy · June 2018

not a bad looking Genny. But really bigger than I would want. The Azera is too really, but not as big as this I don't think!

was scheming with my daughter today, that we should get my wife a new car for Xmas. She has a friend visiting, and decided to go to a village up in PA to shop. and said she wanted to take my car, since it can run Navi. To me, that means she just needs something more modern!

henryn · June 2018

So I did go for a test drive in the Mustang GT Premium, manual 6 speed, as I had mentioned last night.

I went back to the salesman that sold me my truck last year, a nice guy and he was talking about ordering himself a Mustang GT the last time I talked with him. Turns out he did get a GT, but he didn’t go for the track pack as he was initially thinking of doing.

We went for a nice long drive, 30 or 40 minutes in heavy Houston traffic. By the end of that time, I was convinced that I will never again own a manual until and unless I move out of Houston. Dealing with a clutch in heavy traffic is just insane. He offered to bring up a 10 speed automatic so we could go out again, but I passed.

I did have my track appraised for trade value while we were out for the test drive. They came back with $19k. I asked why so low, when they are selling at auction for $20 to $21 (per @qbrozen, and thanks again). The sales manager looked at me funny, like “How do you know that?”, and we had an interesting conversation. He claimed that if I traded in the truck, he would send it to auction, he would never put a regular cab XL on his used car lot. Which I thought was pretty strange for a Ford dealer in Texas, but whatever.

This is a nice dealership, they treat you with respect, which I appreciate. Mak Haik Ford on the Katy Freeway, if anyone cares. And if you want the name of the salesman, send me a private message and I'll be happy to provide that.

Later in the afternoon, I was at a different dealership looking at a new Supercrew, with a really great advertised deal. Which was total trickery. And I encountered something I haven’t seen in the last 10 years, maybe more. Remember the “good cop – bad cop” method of car sales? A really nice overly friendly salesman, truly your buddy, on your side, and then the “closer” comes in and acts rude and like a real a__hole? I was really astounded to encounter that in this day and age. I told the “bad cop” to …

Well never mind, this is a “G” rated site.

qbrozen · June 2018

henryn said:

That Azera does look nice. I think I would probably move on up to a Genesis if I were moving in that direction. Here's a 2012 Genesis for $9,799, should make someone a very nice used car. https://autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?listingId=483195369&zip=77429&makeCode1=HYUND&modelCode1=GENESIS&dealerId=625641

V6. Boooo.

qbrozen · June 2018

henryn said:

So I did go for a test drive in the Mustang GT Premium, manual 6 speed, as I had mentioned last night. I went back to the salesman that sold me my truck last year, a nice guy and he was talking about ordering himself a Mustang GT the last time I talked with him. Turns out he did get a GT, but he didn’t go for the track pack as he was initially thinking of doing. We went for a nice long drive, 30 or 40 minutes in heavy Houston traffic. By the end of that time, I was convinced that I will never again own a manual until and unless I move out of Houston. Dealing with a clutch in heavy traffic is just insane. He offered to bring up a 10 speed automatic so we could go out again, but I passed. I did have my track appraised for trade value while we were out for the test drive. They came back with $19k. I asked why so low, when they are selling at auction for $20 to $21 (per @qbrozen, and thanks again). The sales manager looked at me funny, like “How do you know that?”, and we had an interesting conversation. He claimed that if I traded in the truck, he would send it to auction, he would never put a regular cab XL on his used car lot. Which I thought was pretty strange for a Ford dealer in Texas, but whatever. This is a nice dealership, they treat you with respect, which I appreciate. Mak Haik Ford on the Katy Freeway, if anyone cares. And if you want the name of the salesman, send me a private message and I'll be happy to provide that. Later in the afternoon, I was at a different dealership looking at a new Supercrew, with a really great advertised deal. Which was total trickery. And I encountered something I haven’t seen in the last 10 years, maybe more. Remember the “good cop – bad cop” method of car sales? A really nice overly friendly salesman, truly your buddy, on your side, and then the “closer” comes in and acts rude and like a real a__hole? I was really astounded to encounter that in this day and age. I told the “bad cop” to … Well never mind, this is a “G” rated site.

ACTUALLY, they go for a little more at auction. I give the "trade value" that already takes into account their reconditioning and/or sending it to auction. So they were most certainly too low. I think your truck could do quite well private party.

What was the deal on the supercrew? What did they advertise and why was it a trick?

henryn · June 2018

The trickery part was "dealer add ons". Amounted to right at $2,500, and the only thing with actual value was a spray in bed liner. Mostly $299 for nitrogen, $199 for wheel locks, something about DNA (??), etc, etc.

Basically mop-n-glow, with the exception of the bed liner. And I don't want their off brand bed liner, if I do choose to go in that direction, I will go with the Line-X and pass up their off brand.

The deal on the supercrew amounted to a nicely loaded up XLT Supercrew for around $31.4. Later on, I talked to the salesman back at the first dealership, the one I like. He looked up his competitors ad, went through his inventory, found 2 of the exact same truck (same options, same MSRP, different color), and told me he could do about $32.5, and that his manager said they would come up to $19.5 for my trade. Getting more reasonable here, but still should be better on my trade.

I suspect that if I went back, ready to deal "right now", I could get another $1k and close the deal. But I'm not sure I want to do that. I may go back and drive a Mustang GT with the 10 speed automatic. Or perhaps a nice 2 or 3 year old Genesis (yes, with the V8!)

I need to spend a few hours going to CarMax and Texas Direct Auto (their biggest competitor in these parts) to get bids on my truck, in writing.

The minivan is a keeper. The only way I would replace it would be with something at least as practical and useful, and that by definition would be another minivan. And the way I keep mine (middle seats stowed, big rubber mat over that area), the next one would have to be another Mopar, still the only make with fold flat middle seats.

Hmmm... I wonder if any new Pacifica's have migrated out of the rental fleet yet? That's the way I got my present Town & Country, great deal.

graphicguy · June 2018

Seems whenever I traid a car to a dealer, they all say they’ll send it to auction. I have nice cars. Mostly, they’re low mileage. They are garaged, well kept and clean. I would think any dealer would love to put my cars on their used lot.

I once asked one dealer a long time ago regarding a number below auction value for a trade I had where he gets his cars for the used lot? He said he buys them at auction.

I replied...”save yourself some fees and travel time and buy my trade for a decent number. You won’t have to go to the auction to see it again.” He chuckled.

fintail · June 2018

Had the Bluetec in for service B this morning, chatted up a sales manager, who thinks diesels might never come back to the US MB lineup. I mentioned to him that my car is a lease, and if there's no diesel, I'll just likely buy a used car. He then mentioned buying out my lease, and I mentioned the huge gap between residual and market value. He said they will negotiate a buyout to market value - this is news to me. Maybe I'll just keep the Bluetec when the term is up. I was thinking of looking for the absolute perfect car (colors and options), but it may not exist. My car is close, color is a little dark and it is missing one option, but otherwise perfect. Could be interesting.

Mr_Shiftright · June 2018

stickguy said:
I find it amusing to look at a link from Breld or Michael, and next time I log on am getting ads from Denver area.

People who plan to do some web surfing while their "autonomous" car is driving them around are going to see a lot more of this, too.

breld · June 2018

@michaell and @jpp5862 joined me earlier today to check out the Clarity PHEV.

Overall, a very comfortable and roomy vehicle. There was no charge on the test vehicle so we were basically in hybrid mode for the drive. The drone of the CVT was off putting at first, but once I got over the sound, I appreciated the acceleration and power, at least in comparison to the Prius Prime.

As an extra car, I like the more compact size of the Prius, and I also like the increased certainty of resale on the Toyota.

But no matter what mode you’re in, that Prius doesn’t break 10 seconds 0-60. And it only goes 27 miles on all EV mode.

The Clarity does 0-60 in a more respectable 8-ish seconds, and goes 47 miles in EV mode. It’s a few thousand more than the Toyota, but that bigger battery also garners $3,000 higher tax incentive.

Neither is particularly attractive, but that’s not really the point of them. A “normal” Accord PHEV would be welcome, but the Clarity is close.

suydam · June 2018

I see Prius Primes around here and I think Why. I could see back when 20 or so miles on a charge was the norm for a Plug In Hybrid, but not now.

breld · June 2018

I wondered the same thing - I suppose there are those who have a truly short commute and can benefit from the Prime model that way.

For the time being, the tax incentives alone make it worth it over the regular Prius.

henryn · June 2018

https://houston.craigslist.org/cto/d/2017-ford-150-xl-reg-cab-27l/6624977280.html

I detailed the truck (well, actually, I paid one of the neighbors to do it!) Took some pictures, and threw it up on Craigslist. We shall see what we shall see.

corvette · June 2018

Nice looking truck. I think I’d ask more and be open to haggling, you might get more than your “firm” price now.

henryn · June 2018

corvette said:
Nice looking truck. I think I’d ask more and be open to haggling, you might get more than your “firm” price now.

Admittedly, there are some people who love to haggle, and can't be happy with any purchase if they can't "work the price". Which makes me wonder what they do in WalMart (smile).

I always like to write up a really good, complete description when I'm selling something as expensive as an automobile. Selling a used computer or cell phone for a couple hundred, no, but a used car for many thousands of dollars? When I'm shopping for a big ticket item, the more information I see, the better, and I would expect others to feel the same way.

Which gives me the WTH syndrome when I'm perusing used car listings on Craigslist or elsewhere and people can't be bothered to list the most basic information -- miles, engine size, etc.

Mr_Shiftright · June 2018

breld said:
I wondered the same thing - I suppose there are those who have a truly short commute and can benefit from the Prime model that way.

For the time being, the tax incentives alone make it worth it over the regular Prius.

Did you drive the Volt yet?

nyccarguy · June 2018

GTI S 6MT got a great write up on truth about cars

breld · June 2018

Mr_Shiftright said:

breld said:
I wondered the same thing - I suppose there are those who have a truly short commute and can benefit from the Prime model that way.

For the time being, the tax incentives alone make it worth it over the regular Prius.
Did you drive the Volt yet?

We looked at the Volt today, but it seems a bit cramped on the inside, particularly the backseat - that's the first thing @jpp5862 noticed. The Prius is small too, but has a more airy and spacious cabin, what with its more upright positioning. And the Clarity is huge in comparison.

breld · June 2018

nyccarguy said:
GTI S 6MT got a great write up on truth about cars

Those are nice. I should look into getting one.

Michaell · June 2018

GTI #4!

suydam · June 2018

breld said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

breld said:
I wondered the same thing - I suppose there are those who have a truly short commute and can benefit from the Prime model that way.

For the time being, the tax incentives alone make it worth it over the regular Prius.
Did you drive the Volt yet?
We looked at the Volt today, but it seems a bit cramped on the inside, particularly the backseat - that's the first thing @jpp5862 noticed. The Prius is small too, but has a more airy and spacious cabin, what with its more upright positioning. And the Clarity is huge in comparison.

And you were thinking of a Mazda 3 as a possible option ? Also small, low slung, and seats 4. But somehow the Volt seems more cramped? I cross shopped the Volt and the Mazda precisely because they are both small and fun to drive. Did you actually sit in the Volt, or drive it? It’s a pretty comfortable ride and I love the handling. To each his/her own.

breld · June 2018

I have no doubt the Volt is a very nice handling vehicle and likely tops in the category from what I’ve read and from your own accounts - just thought it felt more cramped than the Prius and Clarity, particularly for rear seat headroom.

suydam · June 2018

That’s probably true. My very tall grown children are coming for a visit next month so we’ll find out! Our last visitors are not tall and found it very comfortable. Compared to the Encore it’s spacious!

henryn · June 2018

henryn said:
https://houston.craigslist.org/cto/d/2017-ford-150-xl-reg-cab-27l/6624977280.html

I detailed the truck (well, actually, I paid one of the neighbors to do it!) Took some pictures, and threw it up on Craigslist. We shall see what we shall see.

I forgot just how much fun selling a car on craigslist can be. In my ad, I am very specific about my price, how I arrived at the price, and the fact that the price is firm and non-negotiable at $22,400. So the first message I get:

Good evening I hope you are having a blessed evening!!!! We have been on the look for a F150 and I feel like this is the perfect fit for my family. I am working with a tight budget but my offer is cash all 100's and I would come meet you at your local bank where me and you are both safe as well as you can verify the cash. I'd like to come look at the car and purchase it from you at your earliest convenience. I am wondering if you would entertain 18k cash all 100's not a dime less and no haggling you just walk inside the bank verify the bills and it'll be quick and smooth!

roadburner · June 2018

I continue to maintain that Craigslist provides undeniable proof that even the most mentally feeble can operate a computer.

qbrozen · June 2018

Probably a wholesaler

Mr_Shiftright · June 2018

Or someone who might enjoy killing you. And sure, regular cab pickups are perfect for a family--that really makes sense, doesn't it?

sda · June 2018

henryn said:

corvette said:
Nice looking truck. I think I’d ask more and be open to haggling, you might get more than your “firm” price now.
Admittedly, there are some people who love to haggle, and can't be happy with any purchase if they can't "work the price". Which makes me wonder what they do in WalMart (smile).

I always like to write up a really good, complete description when I'm selling something as expensive as an automobile. Selling a used computer or cell phone for a couple hundred, no, but a used car for many thousands of dollars? When I'm shopping for a big ticket item, the more information I see, the better, and I would expect others to feel the same way.

Which gives me the WTH syndrome when I'm perusing used car listings on Craigslist or elsewhere and people can't be bothered to list the most basic information -- miles, engine size, etc.

I like your truck, good equipment, power, looks, yet still a truck. Were you affected by flooding from hurricane Harvey? My parents have friends who lost everything.

carnaught · June 2018

I had an interesting recurring thing when I had the MKC up for sale on a nationwide auto selling website. I kept getting an email that the person would pay my asking price, that the car was perfect for his daughter, but first I had to furnish a report, like a CarFax from a weird website. I never heard of the website, but it did exist, no doubt a phishing scheme. I told the would-be buyer that I knew my car was fine, but if he still wanted proof with the report to go to the site himself and get the report and if he bought my car I would deduct the $15 he paid for the report. Then, as expected, he would disappear, then reappear days or a week later with a slightly different story, different identity and phone no. He had an out-of-area area code that he wanted me to call, no doubt to extract some personal information from me. Oh, and even weeks after the car was sold, and the ad had pulled, I’d get a similar message to call someone as they really wanted the car. Each time, just for fun, I would bait them, but then would not hear from them for a while.

Amazing how people try to scam you.

carnaught · June 2018

I like thus one, not an enthusist’s car, but a real candidate for dd.

http://autoweek.com/article/car-reviews/first-drive-2019-honda-insight-worlds-most-efficient-civc

henryn · June 2018

sda said:

I like your truck, good equipment, power, looks, yet still a truck. Were you affected by flooding from hurricane Harvey? My parents have friends who lost everything.

No, not me personally. Of course I know many, friends and coworkers, who were hit. Some of whom were devastated, wiped out completely, others with relatively minor damage. No deaths, no injuries, at least among people I knew, just financial hardship. Which can be bad enough when you lose everything you own.

The office where I work was closed for a week, so my biggest problem was boredom. My immediate area was high and dry, but you couldn't really go anywhere. All of the freeways were closed, and I do mean all. You could try to get around on surface streets, but most of those were under water, and it really wasn't a good idea.

It wasn't like your typical hurricane aftermath. I never lost electricity, or internet, and I was stocked up on food (which was good, because there was nothing open). You just couldn't go anywhere or do anything. At all.

breld · June 2018

So went to check out some other Prius Primes. This dealership has a couple brand new 2017’s.

They have an Advance model that stickers for around $34k that’s advertised for $30k. So about $4k discount versus a $1,600 discount, which is the best I’ve seen for a new 2018.

Do you think that $2,400 difference makes up for the difference in value between a 2017 and 2018? Zero changes made between the two model years.

stickguy · June 2018

Only if you are keeping it for a decade.

Hint: you aren’t.

breld · June 2018

So you’re saying pay the extra and get the 2018?

henryn · June 2018

The idea is, a year from now (or 6 months) (or only 3 months) the difference in resale value between a 2018 and a 2017 will greater than $2,400. So you will lose less money due to depreciation by buying the 2018 model for $2,400 more.

At least that's what @stickguy is alluding to. I don't actually know that for a fact, but it is probably true. Check average resale values for a used 2018 versus a 2017, using edmunds or kbb or ask @qbrozen.

stickguy · June 2018

well, in this case, I would not suggest buying either one for a 3-6 month trial period. Aren't there deals to be had on used 2017s instead? Seems to make more sense if really wanting one of these.

breld · June 2018

henryn said:
The idea is, a year from now (or 6 months) (or only 3 months) the difference in resale value between a 2018 and a 2017 will greater than $2,400. So you will lose less money due to depreciation by buying the 2018 model for $2,400 more.

At least that's what @stickguy is alluding to. I don't actually know that for a fact, but it is probably true. Check average resale values for a used 2018 versus a 2017, using edmunds or kbb or ask @qbrozen.

Yeah - that's exactly what we were thinking. And, in fact, their best trade value on the i3 was $500 less than the other Toyota dealer I was working with on the 2018 model. So, comparing deal vs deal, I'd be saving a mere $1,800 to get the 2017. Didn't seem worth it at all - not for my intended purposes.

And @stickguy - used ones are rare, but they did actually have one on their lot...for $28k, or about the same as a discounted new 2017. And the most significant thing is all those tax incentives do not apply to used vehicles.

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