Maybe its just me - I frequently take the tranny from 5th to neutral when I am coasting from highway speeds on an exit ramp, before I downshift. It a lot more comfortable and it just slides into neutral as you let your foot off the gas, without the clutch.
Maybe I should apply for a job at Subaru qualification testing their vehicles for such anomolies. Of course being a design engineer mayself, I am trained to look for these things.
Howard- Sure, I frequently do the same thing on off ramps. The difference being that I use the clutch. :-) IMHO: skipping that step seems like a bad habit to get into.
Hi Howard, I slide into neutral sans the clutch all the time, so I know I understand why you'd do this. BTW as an enginerd I understand the innate ability to uncover anomolies. I unintentionally discover software bugs all the time in what to me is expected or normal use of a program. I'm not intentionally trying to break anything, it just happens.
Howard: tap the brake pedal ever so lightly, or cancel the cruise with the enabler or on the stalk. No need to engineer additional functionality for your weird habits.
Colin, you took the words right outta my mouth. I just use the cancel button or tap the brakes myself. Here's MY cruise question. I recently had to replace the plastic(?) stopper on the clutch pedal (97 OBS) that controls the cruise switch. If it comes off or breaks, there is a hole in the pedal arm where the stopper goes. Why is a hole there in the first place??
The first time it was the fuel injector on cylinder 1, and the second time it was cylinder 3, so I'm not sure it's the valves. (Well, I certainly hope not)
The way I interpret what Patti was saying is that the valves are not seating properly, allowing improper combustion and carbon build up, which in turn is affecting your fuel injectors some how. If that is the case, than you should expect that problem to crop up again.
As an aside, if you are getting carbon build up, the garage had better check the state of the piston rings and cylinder walls as well (with industrial diesels, carbon build up leads to damaged rings and scored cylinder liners).
After all that, I don't really see how carbon build up (presumably on the injectors) would lead to problems only below 3000 rpm. Patti, could the engineers or techs there explain the process? Thanx
Disclaimer: don't try this at home unless you can afford it! I don't want to listen to a bunch of crying about busted gearboxes, okay? Okay. Here we go.
It is possible to shift gears without using the clutch at all. Uh-huh. I used to do it all the time in my wild youth, and occasionally still do when I want to flip someone's lid. (NOTE that I learned how to do this on trucks with really really really heavy duty gearboxes - trucks that were owned by someone else . YMMV.)
It is a matter of matching the speeds of the two spinning gears inside the transmission you wish to engage; when their speeds are matched they will slide together smoothly. Matching speeds is usually done with the throttle, and is the whole point behind the art of double-clutching. It is also possible, far easier really, to DISengage gears without damage. The best way to do it is to relieve the load that is going through the gears, and one way to relieve the loading on the gears is to take your foot off the gas. There will be a brief moment, between the time the engine is driving the car forward and when the engine is slowing the car down, that the load on the gears will be essentially zero. Easing the gears apart at that moment will cause no harm.
What NOT to do: leave your hand on the shift lever all the time. The shifter is attached to the gears, and leaving your hand on the lever places forces on the gears that they would not otherwise have, and may cause them to mesh in a less than ideal manner. Don't do it.
Dave, Good point about NOT leaving your hand on the shift lever. I'm guilty as charged (well, half-guilty). I leave my hand on the shift lever too early before the shift and too late after the shift. I noticed this because it's a habit I'm trying to break before I attend driving school (where you want both hands on the wheel at all times). Thanks for the tip.
with industrial diesels, carbon build up leads to damaged rings and scored cylinder liners
While I am hardly a compression ignition expert, the damage is the same thing that happens to piston engines, actually the rods and rod bearings are hurt too. What happens is that the carbon buildup decreases the combustion chamber displacement, which increases the compression and causes very high cylinder pressures and early ignition timing (diesel) and detonation (gasoline). You can't have detonation as a problem on a diesel because that's how they work.
After all that, I don't really see how carbon build up (presumably on the injectors) would lead to problems only below 3000 rpm.
Uh, I seriously doubt there is a carbon buildup problem on the injectors, they are fairly protected from that sort of thing since they are installed in the intake manifold and not the combustion chamber.
A while back I posted a problem with a small oil leak at the drain plug of my 01 Forester L. I talked to my dealer and he had me bring it in for a look. It took 2 trips to fix the problem, the first time they just replaced the gasket. I guess they didn't hear me when I told them I tried that, twice. The second trip, they diagnosed the problem as a "warped drain plug hole" and replaced the oil pan which has fixed the problem. Despite having to make 2 trips, the dealer did OK. They did not tell me that it was normal for Foresters to leak oil and they did offer me a rental while they had my vehicle!
Thanks Colin and Mike -- I'd have to agree with your comments (especially since it's my car we're talking about!). Carbon buildup takes time. I know the gas is dirty, but I doubt it's dirty enough that carbon would build-up in under 20,000 miles, even if the injectors were not as protected.
Regardless, the injectors failed on two different cylinders, which would be even more unlikely to be a cause of carbon buildup.
I have to give my head a shake. Of course the injectors are in the intake. Would you believe that I was thinking of Direct Injection Diesels??:-) Time for another cup of coffee and to Get Smart..
I can't comment on combustion too much either, but many of the failures in industrial diesels I have experience with is a result of carbon getting stuck in the piston rings. This leads to the liner scoring, damaged pistons and fuel migrating into the sump. In worst case scenarios, the liner cracks, or the piston seizes completely causing the con rod to go out the side of the engine. Not a pretty site.
Mike: nod and sorry for talking down to you. I re-read what I wrote last night and I wouldn't have phrased it quite that way if I had another shot. Sorry again!
Ash: Thanks for the vote of confidence. I just hope you find the cause of the problems and regain confidence in your car. I would put alot of faith in what Patti said as she talked to Sube techs who may have seen similar problems in the past.
brakes: Some of you may remember me reporting a problem where the steering wheel on my 2 month old 2000 OB would shake intermittently when the brakes were applied. With enough driving under my belt, I was able to link the intermittentcy to brake heat (the more I braked, the more it shaked). I finally took it over to my local dealer, and sure enough, they diagnosed it as warped front rotors. I am guessing someone made a hard stop in the car before I bought it and cooked the brakes, or it came from the factory that way. Anyhow, the dealer reported a variance of 0.001 to 0.0015 in both front rotors, which I am assuming is the deviation in rotor thickness in inches (seems pretty small to me!). Long story short, they turned the rotors, and all is smooth now. It even cured a general jitter I was experiencing at high speeds. I figure the self-adjusting calipers were riding the warped rotors and must have been sending vibrations into the suspension. As a side note, I had never experienced any pulsations in the brake pedal, which is a more typical symptom of warped rotors. Perhaps all the squish in the Subaru brakes hid the effect.
suspension noise: I noted some discussion on these boards a few months back about a characteristic rattle/knock coming from the front end of the OB suspension when traveling over low-speed bumps/joints (especially sharp steps), and was wondering if there were any further developments on this. I had seen something about redesigned stabilizer links *maybe* curing the issue, but the thread sort of vaporized past that point. I have noted this noise in my OB from day one, and it can be annoying. Who else notices this? I was driving in a grass parking lot in a local park today, and the noise was very noticeable over the bumps. My previous car, a Honda Prelude with low-profile tires and a very stiff suspension, made no noise at all in the same lot.
shifting: Ken, WDB is correct -- if the engine and transmission speeds are matched up, you can slide into gear without clutching, no problem. It's an odd sensation, but very cool once you get the hang of it. I used to drive a construction truck this way when I was in high-school. Not sure if I would do it on my own car though!
way..way..back in Nineteenhundred&seventyseven,I came across (what I thought at the time) the car I just had to Own. A friend came into ownership of a Dealership in the Heartland and while on a visit to see his new operation,he showed me the Beauty. This car was clean w/ a 400 cub.in Lean Burn engine.(Yeah whatever,give me the keys). Well, we cut the deal, a trade and 7k or so and off I went. Man I did'nt look back except I had just put in a pair of new speakers in my old ride which could blow.
And then The rains came.
Had a Dinner engagement with some friends a few weeks later. Of course I'll drive, besides they were going to treat me to some Rocky Mountain Oysters at some fancy joint. Enroute,I stopped for a Light and the Beauty started missen and jerkin and jump-en and then stalled.I even thought I heard a backfire in there somewhere. Oh man, I was sick w/ this brand new car. I manage to get the thing back home after putting everyone though one heck of a ride.
Called the Dealer/said bring it on back\hope I make it/Tech, take a look at this\it's the lean Burn Computer/lean burn what?\Yeah/you still have my old car/sure,you can drive it till we figure this out\week later/come and get it\============= ======/year later\call the Dealer/man I sold the place\what!/===================================== ================================================= \It's Nineteenhundred&Eightyone/Call the dealer\ What now!
It sad when new car owners have to put up with this for any amount of time even though I realize that 100% flawless is just not going to happen. However a mechanic once told me "when you get a bad Subaru it just bad". I'm not sure what he meant, but he then offer to buy my 1987 4x4 Gl sedan. That said, I guess he thought it was a good one. I declined.
I held out a lot of hope for the Beauty. 79k miles of nothing but, I wonder whats going to go wrong now. But it was a beauty, "NO Bull".
I am guessing someone made a hard stop in the car before I bought it and cooked the brakes, or it came from the factory that way.
It's easy to warp brakes, even the best ones. Brake late and hard, then stay on the brake pedal while stopped. The very hot rotors and pads cool at different rates where the pads are still in contact and you've got warping.
Don't brake late or hard unless you need to avoid a collision, and if you do use the handbrake once you've stopped. On a late model Subaru the handbrake controls a tiny pair of drums inside the hub, so even the rear rotors can't be warped.
Or if you drive in very hilly or mountainous terrain, you don't even have to brake late because you're braking often. Again, relax the brake pedal while stopped (say for a stoplight) and use the handbrake. ______
About the noise you're hearing, have you had the exhaust shielding checked? There is a *lot* of it, and something could be touching the exhaust while going over bumps. Just a thought.
The noise is definitely coming from the front suspension or steering rack, and is not something I'd typically associate with exhaust shielding (rattly tin can stovepipe noise, right?). It's more of a deep knock, and I can swear I hear a brief twang afterwards, like a spring has been dinged. I've gone off-road, run into potholes, and rooled over speed bumps with no noise at all. It only happens at low speed, over small steps and sharp bumps, equivalent to say, driving over a flat 1" thick plank at 5-10mph. You know, the kind of blip in the road that is not big enough to make the suspension give, but enough to make noise?
As for the brakes, well, I brake like a granny most of the time. Thanks for the great info about not staying on the brakes after a hard stop -- I didn't know about that.
Last Sat., while hiking in the Rockies with the local fanatics (ouch), the group leader and I got to talking about the fine print in the Subaru warranty. She has a 2000 Outback, and I have a 2001 Forester S-Limited. She swears that she read in the actual warranty that *service* work has to be done by Subaru dealers in order to maintain the warranty. Having not read the warranty carefully, but having read others before, I asserted (chiefly, then, on logical grounds), that this couldn't be the case: that the issue was to do and to document the service, and not who did it.
Unfortunately, my Forester is 750 miles away at present, and I can't therefore read the warranty myself.
I wondered if anyone could help me out on this. I tend to do virtually all service stuff myself, so am a little concerned.
I'm in Canada, but don't think the warranty is different than in the US.
Here in the US, that is not the case. As long as you keep records as to when each maintenance item was replaced, you have nothing to worry about. However, only WARRANTY repairs have to be done by a Subaru dealer.
Craig, I hear ya! I love my OB, and I proselytize for Subaru without apology, but that front-end rattle/thunk/sproing IS DEFINITELY THERE. Let me ask you, when you back out of the garage in the morning do you often hear (feel?) a faint "twang", like a spring being gently sprung? Now, I freely admit that I am highly (annoyingly, some might say) attuned to such subtle things, but I suspect you are the same. If the culprit is the anti-sway bar (and/or its bushings), it can't be a difficult fix. I'm just wondering if anyone has genuinely solved this little mystery yet.
While we're on the subject (and it may be totally related), I frequently hear (and feel) a low groan from something in the front-end when I make a fairly sharp turn (left or right) at about 10 mph. The sound is not unlike tire scrub, or two rubber surfaces rubbing together. It only occurs for a split second and not every time, but I'M NOT HEARING THINGS AND I'M NOT INSANE (not clinically). Am I the only one with this particular problem? None of these things have me "concerned" (picture a deeply furrowed brow), but they are odd enough to keep me conscious any time I take a hard turn (which is not meant to suggest that I am unconscious on the straight-aways).
Now the pep rally: last year I met this guy at a neighborhood party. He told me he was the service manager at the local Ford/Subaru (yikes!) dealership. I said,"what a coincidence, I'm about to buy a car from you folks", to which he replied,"oh, then I guess I'll be seeing a lot of you! What cha gettin', an Explorer"? "Not on a bet", I said,"I'm buying an Outback"! With a look of sober respect he than said, "well, maybe I'll see you when you come in for oil changes." True story.
Craid & YA Dave, I too am somewhat neurotic about small, undescribable noises. In my 2001 Forester I feel, more so than hear, a noise/vibration during the first second or so of acceleration from a stop. I feel it right below my feet. Of course the dealership "feels" nothing. It sort of feels like a grinding but only for a second and then the acceleration is smooth as silk. I just don't know what to think. Does sound like the same thing you are experiencing?
My first guess for the groaning noise you hear is the power steering pump. It will really groan if you bring it to full lock and keep torque applied on the wheel.
AHA! Glad to hear that I'm not the only one with the rattle/thunk/sproing problem (I mean, in my car, that is). I don't think it would be the sway bar or bushings -- they would make more of a creaky-groan in turns, right?. It definitely sounds like a rattling/loose/undamped sprung metal part to me, and I plan on taking a serious gander at the whole front suspension when I'm under the car for my upcoming 3000 mile oil change. I'll probably bring a sleeping bag and spend a few hours under there.
In the interest of science, I just took a spin around the block in my OB, making as many sharp 10mph turns as possbile. OK, so I am crazy. About the only thing I heard was some tread squish from the tires, and the usual ringing in my ears. But, I will keep an eye (ear?) out for any other noises the next time I'm driving down the street serpentine.
kutt: sound like you're feeling the clutch grabbing.
Greg: yes, I use about 4.5 quarts. At first I thought I did not have the drain plug gasket either, but looking very closely I saw a very crushed and flat, old gasket. It's OE filters from now on (w/free gasket), just $4 from Darlene.
Hmm, you guys actually exit with the cruise still on? Considerin I cruise at 75 and up, and exit at 55 or so, my cruise is disengaged long before I'm on the ramp.
Matching revs? All the time. Even with the clutch. Remember, the clutch absorbs the difference in speed, so the better you match revs, the less wear on the clutch. Try it.
Next exit ramp, go into neutral, blip the throttle, and slowly ease it into 3rd gear. When the revs match, there is actually less friction to get it into gear. It's hard to explain how you feel it, but try it out.
Dave - new oil pan sounds like a good fix. As a bonus, that means you got all the sludge that accumulates at the bottom out as well. Good to go.
Craig - rotors turned. Good to see these nagging issues getting resolved. Remember they can usually only do this once, so respect the brakes.
How 'bout giving Ash some piece of mind next? I say a new O2 sensor and probably a whole new ECU would be a good start, plus a fuel system cleaning.
Colin: I'm especially surprised that you didn't mention the use of engine braking down those long hills. I remember going up that hill south of Phoenix in a friend's Dodge, the brakes baked and he used 3rd and some times 2nd gear to hold speeds down.
I just don't know what to think. Does sound like the same thing you are experiencing?
Well, if you're referring to mental health aspect of this, then yes, I think we should all form a club. :-)
Mechanically, I would attribute your noise/vibration to something in the AWD system -- I notice some "windup" in my OB when starting from a stop every so often, as if the AWD system is distributing torque, taking up slack, or something like that.
Forgive my inadequate description. Honest, its a whole lot clearer when you can see my arms waving around. Anyway, the groan I'm "sensing" isn't the PS pump (my dad used to smack me in the head if I overpressed the power steering in his Newport, so I'm now cured of such tendencies). My gut feeling is that it may, in fact, be tire scrub. Now before everyone shoots me to pieces for suggesting such a thing, here's my pretzel-logic: might it be possible that the LSD is slightly/momentarily locking up the rear wheels as I begin applying power midway into the turn. This seems at least possible given that the power at that moment is being transferred toward the front end by the viscous coupling (manual tranny). As I said, this is a subtle, momentary sensation, but it seems not unlike the sensation of making turns on dry pavement with a part-time 4WD truck (blech).
I just checked my warrant book (Canadian) and it reads exactly as Darlene indicated for the States. "How to get *warranty* service" - You must go to authorized Dealer, etc.
is something I too have experienced w/my Wintergreen '00 OB. Going across slightly raised railroad tracks, or worse, hitting washboard areas on packed-dirt roads. A slightly metallic ringing character to the sound. Big dips, or bumps, no problem. It has to be a slow-speed, slightly jarring bump. It seems to be worse when I am braking slightly as the front tires hit the bump or pothole. I can feel the clunk in the steering wheel. I imagined at first it might be the rubber hood bumpers out of adjustment, but they are fine on inspection and I can't manually get any rattling from the hood. I had followed the same thread as c hunter w/ interest but no further mention. Anyone else?
Boy, I love this car. I can't say enough good about it and my complaints are pickyune at worst. Surprisingly, most people to whom I mention my love-affair are well aware of the Outback's reputation for quality and have some comment to make re: someone else they know who got one and is very happy they did. A new one was sprung on me this weekend. "Did you know," said the woman,"that the Outback is THE car of choice in the Lesbian community?" You learn something new every day.
Re postings #741 and 742. Subaru team I did what you had asked me to do about faxing my gas mileage to you and you mention 'to give you a call back'. Well I did fax over the information on (9/18/00)and I called SOA today (9/19/00) and talked to a representative. I was very surprised at the comments that were said that SOA has heard of the Edmunds site and is not affiliated with Edmunds and that he knows of no Subaru Team and that SOA does not sponsor such a thing. So what gives here. Was I supposed to call SOA as I was led to believe or was I to call a different number. From you're postings it seems that you have all my service records there and it gave me the impression you represent SOA and I would like to discuss the problems we are experiencing with our Forester. Can you please write and tell me my next step.
I was reading (somewhere) that it might be a good idea to change the water pump when you change the timing belt, since you need to remove it (the timing belt) anyway to get to the water pump. This was directed on older cars. I am wondering when the normal life of a water pump is (I mean should you replace them every 60k with your timing belt.... or every 120k every other timing belt... or just let them fail?) Thanks in advance for your help Frank
Hugo: Subaru Team is just Patti's handle on Edmunds. I'd contact her directly at pmickel@subaru.com.
Frank: I'd heard that, too, but didn't do this on my Escort. The pump never failed and it was totalled at 107k miles, so I saved money by not changing it.
on my Escort (they never failed I traded in at 100k).... but the Subaru's seem, at least to me, to be much nicer cars and I plan to keep them longer. I was just wondering if there is some magic number (like the 60k for timing belts) to keep in mind... How about you long term Subaru owners?
Juice: can't be clutch, I forgot to mention I'm Auto trans. Craig: I'm willing to go with your suspicion that it is just to do with AWD unless we hear otherwise. Thanks, Greg
I'll start off by saying my 00 OB w/ auto. now has 11K miles and I've loved driving every one of them!
I am a bit anal and notice the clunking and the groaning also. I haven't taken a close look at the front suspension for the clunking yet, but you've piqued my curiosity and may do this weekend.
I also know what you mean about the low groan at low speeds while turning. I believe its a slight binding in the AWD system. I think the system tries a bit too hard during low speed turns to keep the wheels at the same speeds and we hear the clutch plates bind a bit. I've noticed this sound from day one, but it doesn't concern me too much, I tend to focus on EVERY unwelcome noise in my cars (much to the chagrin of my girlfriend because I always take things apart to try and stop the noise).
If anyone else notices or doesn't notice this (it's pretty slight), please post so there is a history to look at.
I hear a groaning noise from under the hood of my '00 Outback, but it appears to be a different one than posted here so far. Mine occurs after the car is warmed up and I stop at a light. It definitely sounds like the power steering unit, but the wheels are normally straight. The sound changes tone when I turn the wheel and disappears as soon as I start moving. The garage couldn't find the cause before, but it goes in for its 24k km check up next month so they'll have another crack at it. It may not be a problem, but following the PS problems experienced by the WRC cars in New Zealand, I wonder. It is also out of place, very annoying and unacceptable in a car of this calibre and price.
To clarify - Subaru wanted to "participate" with Edmunds in some way. There was some talk about it, but, without a staffing adjustment, etc. it did not seem feasible. I had been "lurking" at this site for awhile and I have enjoyed what I have read so I volunteered to participate. No, it is not sponsored by SOA and I think that this is good. You get all kinds of different perspectives.
My job here relates to training and QC for our Representatives. I normally do not have involvement with direct customer contact, however, I have had a lot of experience in this area over the years at Subaru. A lot of our Representatives are not aware of what I do here. When I get a complaint here or see an issue that needs some help from our Customer Service Representatives, I fill them in and we try to help.
I did speak to Tom about your case yesterday. You should hear from him today at some point.
I hope that everything turns out okay with your case and I'll continue to follow it.
Comments
Maybe I should apply for a job at Subaru qualification testing their vehicles for such anomolies.
-Howard
-Frank P.
..Mike
..Mike
-Colin
Here's MY cruise question. I recently had to replace the plastic(?) stopper on the clutch pedal (97 OBS) that controls the cruise switch. If it comes off or breaks, there is a hole in the pedal arm where the stopper goes.
Why is a hole there in the first place??
Dennis
The first time it was the fuel injector on cylinder 1, and the second time it was cylinder 3, so I'm not sure it's the valves. (Well, I certainly hope not)
Thanks for checking though.
-- ash
The way I interpret what Patti was saying is that the valves are not seating properly, allowing improper combustion and carbon build up, which in turn is affecting your fuel injectors some how. If that is the case, than you should expect that problem to crop up again.
As an aside, if you are getting carbon build up, the garage had better check the state of the piston rings and cylinder walls as well (with industrial diesels, carbon build up leads to damaged rings and scored cylinder liners).
After all that, I don't really see how carbon build up (presumably on the injectors) would lead to problems only below 3000 rpm. Patti, could the engineers or techs there explain the process? Thanx
MikeF
It is possible to shift gears without using the clutch at all. Uh-huh. I used to do it all the time in my wild youth, and occasionally still do when I want to flip someone's lid. (NOTE that I learned how to do this on trucks with really really really heavy duty gearboxes - trucks that were owned by someone else . YMMV.)
It is a matter of matching the speeds of the two spinning gears inside the transmission you wish to engage; when their speeds are matched they will slide together smoothly. Matching speeds is usually done with the throttle, and is the whole point behind the art of double-clutching. It is also possible, far easier really, to DISengage gears without damage. The best way to do it is to relieve the load that is going through the gears, and one way to relieve the loading on the gears is to take your foot off the gas. There will be a brief moment, between the time the engine is driving the car forward and when the engine is slowing the car down, that the load on the gears will be essentially zero. Easing the gears apart at that moment will cause no harm.
What NOT to do: leave your hand on the shift lever all the time. The shifter is attached to the gears, and leaving your hand on the lever places forces on the gears that they would not otherwise have, and may cause them to mesh in a less than ideal manner. Don't do it.
Cheers,
wdb
..Mike
..Mike
While I am hardly a compression ignition expert, the damage is the same thing that happens to piston engines, actually the rods and rod bearings are hurt too. What happens is that the carbon buildup decreases the combustion chamber displacement, which increases the compression and causes very high cylinder pressures and early ignition timing (diesel) and detonation (gasoline). You can't have detonation as a problem on a diesel because that's how they work.
After all that, I don't really see how carbon
build up (presumably on the injectors) would lead
to problems only below 3000 rpm.
Uh, I seriously doubt there is a carbon buildup problem on the injectors, they are fairly protected from that sort of thing since they are installed in the intake manifold and not the combustion chamber.
-Colin
Dave in Alabama
Regardless, the injectors failed on two different cylinders, which would be even more unlikely to be a cause of carbon buildup.
-- ash
Isn't clutching without shifting on syncrhomeshed gear boxes not good on your synchros? I think I read that somewhere....
Ken
I can't comment on combustion too much either, but many of the failures in industrial diesels I have experience with is a result of carbon getting stuck in the piston rings. This leads to the liner scoring, damaged pistons and fuel migrating into the sump. In worst case scenarios, the liner cracks, or the piston seizes completely causing the con rod to go out the side of the engine. Not a pretty site.
MikeF
-Colin
thanks, ash
Ash: Thanks for the vote of confidence. I just hope you find the cause of the problems and regain confidence in your car. I would put alot of faith in what Patti said as she talked to Sube techs who may have seen similar problems in the past.
MikeF
Cheers,
WDB
brakes:
Some of you may remember me reporting a problem where the steering wheel on my 2 month old 2000 OB would shake intermittently when the brakes were applied. With enough driving under my belt, I was able to link the intermittentcy to brake heat (the more I braked, the more it shaked). I finally took it over to my local dealer, and sure enough, they diagnosed it as warped front rotors. I am guessing someone made a hard stop in the car before I bought it and cooked the brakes, or it came from the factory that way. Anyhow, the dealer reported a variance of 0.001 to 0.0015 in both front rotors, which I am assuming is the deviation in rotor thickness in inches (seems pretty small to me!). Long story short, they turned the rotors, and all is smooth now. It even cured a general jitter I was experiencing at high speeds. I figure the self-adjusting calipers were riding the warped rotors and must have been sending vibrations into the suspension. As a side note, I had never experienced any pulsations in the brake pedal, which is a more typical symptom of warped rotors. Perhaps all the squish in the Subaru brakes hid the effect.
suspension noise:
I noted some discussion on these boards a few months back about a characteristic rattle/knock coming from the front end of the OB suspension when traveling over low-speed bumps/joints (especially sharp steps), and was wondering if there were any further developments on this. I had seen something about redesigned stabilizer links *maybe* curing the issue, but the thread sort of vaporized past that point. I have noted this noise in my OB from day one, and it can be annoying. Who else notices this? I was driving in a grass parking lot in a local park today, and the noise was very noticeable over the bumps. My previous car, a Honda Prelude with low-profile tires and a very stiff suspension, made no noise at all in the same lot.
shifting:
Ken, WDB is correct -- if the engine and transmission speeds are matched up, you can slide into gear without clutching, no problem. It's an odd sensation, but very cool once you get the hang of it. I used to drive a construction truck this way when I was in high-school. Not sure if I would do it on my own car though!
Craig
came across (what I thought at the time) the car
I just had to Own. A friend came into
ownership of a Dealership in the Heartland and
while on a visit to see his new operation,he
showed me the Beauty. This car was clean w/ a
400 cub.in Lean Burn engine.(Yeah whatever,give me the keys). Well, we cut the deal, a trade and 7k or so and off I went. Man I did'nt look back except I had just put in a pair of new speakers in my old ride which could blow.
And then The rains came.
Had a Dinner engagement with some friends a few
weeks later. Of course I'll drive, besides they
were going to treat me to some Rocky Mountain
Oysters at some fancy joint. Enroute,I stopped for a Light and the Beauty started missen and jerkin and jump-en and then stalled.I even thought
I heard a backfire in there somewhere. Oh man,
I was sick w/ this brand new car. I manage to
get the thing back home after putting everyone
though one heck of a ride.
Called the Dealer/said bring it on back\hope I
make it/Tech, take a look at this\it's the lean
Burn Computer/lean burn what?\Yeah/you still have
my old car/sure,you can drive it till we figure
this out\week later/come and get it\=============
======/year later\call the Dealer/man I sold the place\what!/=====================================
=================================================
\It's Nineteenhundred&Eightyone/Call the dealer\
What now!
It sad when new car owners have to put up with
this for any amount of time even though I
realize that 100% flawless is just not going to
happen. However a mechanic once told me "when you
get a bad Subaru it just bad". I'm not sure what
he meant, but he then offer to buy my 1987 4x4 Gl
sedan. That said, I guess he thought it was a good one. I declined.
I held out a lot of hope for the Beauty. 79k miles of nothing but, I wonder whats going to go wrong now. But it was a beauty, "NO Bull".
BTW - thanks everyone for your input on my weird habits!
-Howard
It's easy to warp brakes, even the best ones. Brake late and hard, then stay on the brake pedal while stopped. The very hot rotors and pads cool at different rates where the pads are still in contact and you've got warping.
Don't brake late or hard unless you need to avoid a collision, and if you do use the handbrake once you've stopped. On a late model Subaru the handbrake controls a tiny pair of drums inside the hub, so even the rear rotors can't be warped.
Or if you drive in very hilly or mountainous terrain, you don't even have to brake late because you're braking often. Again, relax the brake pedal while stopped (say for a stoplight) and use the handbrake.
______
About the noise you're hearing, have you had the exhaust shielding checked? There is a *lot* of it, and something could be touching the exhaust while going over bumps. Just a thought.
-Colin
As for the brakes, well, I brake like a granny most of the time. Thanks for the great info about not staying on the brakes after a hard stop -- I didn't know about that.
Craig
Unfortunately, my Forester is 750 miles away at present, and I can't therefore read the warranty myself.
I wondered if anyone could help me out on this. I tend to do virtually all service stuff myself, so am a little concerned.
I'm in Canada, but don't think the warranty is different than in the US.
Norman
However, only WARRANTY repairs have to be done by a Subaru dealer.
Darlene
I hear ya! I love my OB, and I proselytize for Subaru without apology, but that front-end rattle/thunk/sproing IS DEFINITELY THERE. Let me ask you, when you back out of the garage in the morning do you often hear (feel?) a faint "twang", like a spring being gently sprung? Now, I freely admit that I am highly (annoyingly, some might say) attuned to such subtle things, but I suspect you are the same. If the culprit is the anti-sway bar (and/or its bushings), it can't be a difficult fix. I'm just wondering if anyone has genuinely solved this little mystery yet.
While we're on the subject (and it may be totally related), I frequently hear (and feel) a low groan from something in the front-end when I make a fairly sharp turn (left or right) at about 10 mph. The sound is not unlike tire scrub, or two rubber surfaces rubbing together. It only occurs for a split second and not every time, but I'M NOT HEARING THINGS AND I'M NOT INSANE (not clinically). Am I the only one with this particular problem? None of these things have me "concerned" (picture a deeply furrowed brow), but they are odd enough to keep me conscious any time I take a hard turn (which is not meant to suggest that I am unconscious on the straight-aways).
Now the pep rally: last year I met this guy at a neighborhood party. He told me he was the service manager at the local Ford/Subaru (yikes!) dealership. I said,"what a coincidence, I'm about to buy a car from you folks", to which he replied,"oh, then I guess I'll be seeing a lot of you! What cha gettin', an Explorer"? "Not on a bet", I said,"I'm buying an Outback"! With a look of sober respect he than said, "well, maybe I'll see you when you come in for oil changes." True story.
YetAnotherDave
I too am somewhat neurotic about small, undescribable noises. In my 2001 Forester I feel, more so than hear, a noise/vibration during the first second or so of acceleration from a stop. I feel it right below my feet. Of course the dealership "feels" nothing. It sort of feels like a grinding but only for a second and then the acceleration is smooth as silk.
I just don't know what to think. Does sound like the same thing you are experiencing?
My first guess for the groaning noise you hear is the power steering pump. It will really groan if you bring it to full lock and keep torque applied on the wheel.
-Colin
In the interest of science, I just took a spin around the block in my OB, making as many sharp 10mph turns as possbile. OK, so I am crazy. About the only thing I heard was some tread squish from the tires, and the usual ringing in my ears. But, I will keep an eye (ear?) out for any other noises the next time I'm driving down the street serpentine.
Craig
Greg: yes, I use about 4.5 quarts. At first I thought I did not have the drain plug gasket either, but looking very closely I saw a very crushed and flat, old gasket. It's OE filters from now on (w/free gasket), just $4 from Darlene.
Hmm, you guys actually exit with the cruise still on? Considerin I cruise at 75 and up, and exit at 55 or so, my cruise is disengaged long before I'm on the ramp.
Matching revs? All the time. Even with the clutch. Remember, the clutch absorbs the difference in speed, so the better you match revs, the less wear on the clutch. Try it.
Next exit ramp, go into neutral, blip the throttle, and slowly ease it into 3rd gear. When the revs match, there is actually less friction to get it into gear. It's hard to explain how you feel it, but try it out.
Dave - new oil pan sounds like a good fix. As a bonus, that means you got all the sludge that accumulates at the bottom out as well. Good to go.
Craig - rotors turned. Good to see these nagging issues getting resolved. Remember they can usually only do this once, so respect the brakes.
How 'bout giving Ash some piece of mind next? I say a new O2 sensor and probably a whole new ECU would be a good start, plus a fuel system cleaning.
Colin: I'm especially surprised that you didn't mention the use of engine braking down those long hills. I remember going up that hill south of Phoenix in a friend's Dodge, the brakes baked and he used 3rd and some times 2nd gear to hold speeds down.
-juice
Well, if you're referring to mental health aspect of this, then yes, I think we should all form a club. :-)
Mechanically, I would attribute your noise/vibration to something in the AWD system -- I notice some "windup" in my OB when starting from a stop every so often, as if the AWD system is distributing torque, taking up slack, or something like that.
Craig
YetAnotherDaveYetAgain
had a new/another ECU installed before. How many
ECUs = piece of mind w/ 20k miles.
BTW, welcome back,and your posts were missed.
-juice
Ross
Boy, I love this car. I can't say enough good about it and my complaints are pickyune at worst. Surprisingly, most people to whom I mention my love-affair are well aware of the Outback's reputation for quality and have some comment to make re: someone else they know who got one and is very happy they did. A new one was sprung on me this weekend. "Did you know," said the woman,"that the Outback is THE car of choice in the Lesbian community?" You learn something new every day.
-mike
-juice
Thanks in advance for your help
Frank
Frank: I'd heard that, too, but didn't do this on my Escort. The pump never failed and it was totalled at 107k miles, so I saved money by not changing it.
-juice
Frank
-juice
Frank
ps 60k seems too soon to me.... but 120 may be stretching it
Craig: I'm willing to go with your suspicion that it is just to do with AWD unless we hear otherwise.
Thanks,
Greg
I am a bit anal and notice the clunking and the groaning also. I haven't taken a close look at the front suspension for the clunking yet, but you've piqued my curiosity and may do this weekend.
I also know what you mean about the low groan at low speeds while turning. I believe its a slight binding in the AWD system. I think the system tries a bit too hard during low speed turns to keep the wheels at the same speeds and we hear the clutch plates bind a bit. I've noticed this sound from day one, but it doesn't concern me too much, I tend to focus on EVERY unwelcome noise in my cars (much to the chagrin of my girlfriend because I always take things apart to try and stop the noise).
If anyone else notices or doesn't notice this (it's pretty slight), please post so there is a history to look at.
Brett
It may not be a problem, but following the PS problems experienced by the WRC cars in New Zealand, I wonder. It is also out of place, very annoying and unacceptable in a car of this calibre and price.
MikeF
-Colin
My job here relates to training and QC for our Representatives. I normally do not have involvement with direct customer contact, however, I have had a lot of experience in this area over the years at Subaru. A lot of our Representatives are not aware of what I do here. When I get a complaint here or see an issue that needs some help from our Customer Service Representatives, I fill them in and we try to help.
I did speak to Tom about your case yesterday. You should hear from him today at some point.
I hope that everything turns out okay with your case and I'll continue to follow it.
Thanks!
-Colin