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Postwar Studebakers

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  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,671

    I googled that Avanti's serial no. and it survives, although appears to not have had the greatest care. My eyes!!!

    https://studebaker-info.org/AVDB1/R5000/64R5049/64R5049x17022018/64R5049x17022018.html

    That is a color combination only a mother would love. It's "special."

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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,856
    edited June 2020
    I can only stand the turquoise interior, with turquoise exterior.

    Lots of fake woodgrain inside on '64's. Woodgrain was still pretty unusual then; I can only think of Cadillac Fleetwoods and Eldorados having it on the dash and doors, and Pontiac Bonnevilles and Grand Prix having a horizontal strip of it around the switches; both real wood.

    The '64 Avanti has a LOT of woodgrain, and it's obviously fake, LOL. On the '63's, there was zero.

    I could tolerate it a lot more on the 'Elk' interior.
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  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,671
    edited June 2020

    I googled that Avanti's serial no. and it survives, although appears to not have had the greatest care. My eyes!!!

    https://studebaker-info.org/AVDB1/R5000/64R5049/64R5049x17022018/64R5049x17022018.html

    That is a color combination only a mother would love. It's "special."

    Maybe with white exterior?

    And maybe the real color looks better than the camera's eye says it does...

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,409
    I remember seeing a car with that interior and exterior color (I think maybe it was a 63). It looked fantastic.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,856
    According to the build sheet, my buddy's "new" Hawk was built on Monday, Nov. 25, 1963--the day of JFK's (televised) funeral. His black '64 Daytona convertible was built two days later, on the 27th--one day before Thanksgiving 1963.

    I was under the impression that most places closed down on Nov. 25 so that everybody could watch JFK's funeral on TV, but apparently not.
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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,856
    Spoke to said buddy last night. Said he took the Super Hawk to his first cruise-in of about fifty cars Sat. night and got a 'best of show' trophy. That's kind of neat I think.
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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,856
    Put 28 miles on my Cruiser yesterday; enjoyable. Someone passed me and beeped on I-76, which startled me. I guess I've gotten un-used to that.

    No reply yet from original owner's son, sigh.


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  • sdasda Member Posts: 7,572
    Looks nice, and I like the clear and unpretentious dash gauges. With PNDLR, is it a 2 speed automatic? GM sourced?

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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,856
    The PNDLR is really outdated by '66, but there's some evidence Stude was trying to get dealers to give up the ship as if/when they anounced they were stopping production, they were worried about being flooded with dealer lawsuits. Hence, the large reduction in models when all production was done in Canada (Hawk, Avanti, trucks all gone; after '64, convertibles and two-door hardtops gone and all engines were GM-sourced).

    But to answer your question!

    It's a Borg-Warner three-speed automatic, but in "D", it starts in second gear.

    I like the glass-covered instruments with chrome rings, in an era of plastic in other cars there, but I'll admit it's probably less-safe.
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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,409
    2nd gear start, just like a fintail (and MB used B-W units in Adenauers).

  • bhill2bhill2 Member Posts: 2,595

    The PNDLR is really outdated by '66, but there's some evidence Stude was trying to get dealers to give up the ship as if/when they anounced they were stopping production, they were worried about being flooded with dealer lawsuits. Hence, the large reduction in models when all production was done in Canada (Hawk, Avanti, trucks all gone; after '64, convertibles and two-door hardtops gone and all engines were GM-sourced).

    But to answer your question!

    It's a Borg-Warner three-speed automatic, but in "D", it starts in second gear.

    I like the glass-covered instruments with chrome rings, in an era of plastic in other cars there, but I'll admit it's probably less-safe.

    Hmmm, that's interesting. My father had a '64 Rambler with the same transmission. It had two drive positions; D1 (which started in 1st) and D2 which (like your Studie) started in 2nd. I was once whizzing down the highway at maybe 70-75 with a group of classmates in the car. One of them asked me what the D2 position was for and I said "that's the high speed range, I only bother with it if I'm going faster or a longer distance"). I actually think he bought it.

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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,856
    edited June 2020
    Stude's floor-shift automatic starting in the '63 model year had PRND21 quadrant and could be shifted manually through three gears (and could be held in second), but the column-shifts never got it.

    Supposedly there's some way to get two upshifts with the PNDLR trans, but it involved moving back and forth from "L" and I'm not going to try that. :)

    The Canadian cars could be had with disc brakes and transistorized ignition, a couple things generally ahead-of-the-curve compared to the Big Three at the time, although my car has neither. I do have the dual-chamber master cylinder which I'm not sure all the makers were using at that general time.
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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,409
    I think dual circuit brakes were pretty modern then, yeah.

    So many odd transmissions then. Has me thinking of the Stude-sized fintail, which starts out in 2nd unless you manually kick down into 1st with the button under the accelerator - not recommended as it is rough and will quickly upshift anyway (I think maybe it can also be done by starting out with 2nd selected, not sure). It can't be locked in 1st, but can be held in other gears - I often keep it in 3rd at around 25 mph, as it upshifts to 4th at that speed, but the revs drop too much, sapping speed and even sometimes maybe overfueling a little as it will miss if in 4th too slow.

    Also interesting, the gears aren't in a straight line, but a little notchy - is the Stude like this?

    image

    Fintails could also be had with a 4 on the tree.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,856
    edited June 2020
    My dealer friend had told me about the "MERsideez" 4 on the tree. :)

    The Stude "Powershift" was just a straight-line. It was developed by Borg-Warner for the Avanti, and when fit to Larks or Hawks, a fiberglass extender to elevate the shifter and quadrant was used, and covered with carpet. Here's the one in my friend's new Super Hawk:



    I grew up Chevy, but they were still using the Powerglide two-speed, even in the Corvette at the time. And I feel pretty sure some Buicks and Pontiacs and Oldsmobiles were still using a quadrant with "R" at the bottom in '63 and '64, although with 'notches' for three forward gears.



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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,409
    I think the straight line type gives more of a muscle car feel. The fintail is notchy enough that I can pretend it is a column shift manual. Maybe via its lack of a torque converter, I also notice that it shifts extremely smooth if one lets up on the throttle when it is time for the gear change - I've had the car for so long now that I know exactly when it will shift (when not doing it myself, but usually do that most between 3-4). Floor shift in a fintail sedan wasn't until the 2nd series cars, 1965+.

    When I was in high school (90s), a friend had a green on green 69 Nova sedan, 307 with a 2 speed powerglide, that I think was given to him by a grandparent. I recall on hard acceleration, it would stay in first until maybe 50 mph, then harshly move into second, and the car really seemed to be flying. That car had a fun quirk, a horn that had aged somehow, and when honked sounded like a duck.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,856
    I've heard over the years that some racers like the Powerglide, but I dunno. Chevy sure used it a long time. "Slip and slide with Powerglide!", LOL.
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  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,268
    A very nice '65 Studebaker Cruiser on BaT:

    https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1965-studebaker-cruiser/

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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,856
    edited June 2020
    That is a very nice car! Thank you for posting. First thing I'd have to do is find a set of whitewalls for it!

    Those are the for-real Stude optional headrests, not often seen.

    Although to its commercial detriment, one thing I like about those last few years' Studes is they seemed to pay zero attention to what Detroit was doing.
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  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    edited June 2020
    Nice car but a color combo that couldn't be any worse. Did Studebaker offer factory air conditioning in those days or is this aftermarket (Mickey Mouse as it used to be called) A/C/ Those were sad times for Studebaker as they tried to hang on by a thread. They were doomed and they HAD to know it even having to rely on Chevrolet for their engines. It took a brave soul or a VERY loyal Studebaker fan to buy one. Inglewood? I know the town quite well. All of the Car Dealerships fled many years ago.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,856
    edited June 2020
    Personally, I like the color combination. I get bored with the usual mainstream stuff.

    There is some evidence that Studebaker tried to get its dealer organization to quit on its own after the U.S. production lines stopped in Dec. '63. They had about 1,915 U.S. dealers; then dropped the Hawk, Avanti, and trucks and continued to build Lark-types in their smaller, but newer and more-efficient, Hamilton, Ontario plant. The South Bend engine plant continued to supply engines for 1964 Hamilton-built cars after Dec. '63. But the South Bend engine plant was waaaayyy underutilized, and Engineering looked for replacement engines. They picked the "Chevy" engines that were actually sold to Studebaker by McKinnon Industries, a GM subsidiary. The longtime engine guru in the international Studebaker Drivers Club has torn a bunch of these engines down over the years and says that they have the Power Pack heads, not used on all regular Chevys of the time in the U.S. Supposedly the engines were used in Canadian Pontiacs and trucks. I'm sure Studebaker didn't specify Power Pack heads, but bought whatever could be gotten at a good price.

    By March 1966, when the last car was built, their U.S. dealer organization was down to 450. They had been worried about being flooded with dealer lawsuits in Dec. '63 had they completely shut down, but with attrition that risk was minimized.

    I really like the interior on the BaT car. No other 113-inch wheelbase car that I'm thinking of had an interior like that, IMHO.

    That Stude sold for $7,800. I think somebody got a nice car for that. I'm only guessing, but I'm not sure if a '65 Chevy II or Chevelle Malibu four-door with a 283, rust repair in the trunk, and over 100K miles would've brought more than that, or even that much.
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  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    There was a long time Studebaker Dealership in Los Angeles that stayed in business LONG after Studebaker ceased production. It was called Frost and French. It was there well into the 70's and possibly longer. They did a brisk service business and they had a HUGE selection of parts including parts for cars built in the 30's and 40's. I don't know when they ceased production or where all of those parts ended up?
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,856
    edited June 2020
    Got the paperwork I ordered for my friend's silver Super Hawk pictured here a page or so ago. I love the backstories. It wasn't delivered until Dec. 20, 1963, which happened to be the last day the assembly lines at South Bend operated...a Friday.

    My friend's car has the typical "This Gran Turismo Hawk Built Expressly For" little plaque on the dash, and it is engraved "Fran and Marge", which had us scratching our heads a bit. But I see that the original owner was Francis Gachter. Some 'Googling' resulted in his wife's obit...Marjorie, who passed in 2015. According to it, they had no children but loved boating and camping, and Marjorie was the bookkeeper at the Ford dealer in the town they lived (Navarre, OH) for thirty years. I love that this stuff is available.





    I was disappointed to see that the engine no. wasn't included on the Drive-Away Shipper. It is usually handwritten on the production order, which I didn't purchase. I have a back-door way to get that number though.

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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,856
    RE.: Frost and French--I have heard of that many times! I believe they operated well into the eighties doing parts and service business. I also heard they would buy leftover new Studes from other dealers into '68 and '69! I believe the parts were auctioned to several different parts vendors when they closed. I would have liked to see the place.

    Thanks for the pleasant reminder of that place.
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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,409
    And that memorable italic font, which must have been proprietary to Stude.

    Looks like the area where the original owner lived has been renumbered or renamed, no record of that address at online maps.
  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,268
    I presume they must have used some early type of computer to generate that material. That would be interesting in itself.

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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,856
    I ran over and dropped the paperwork off to him, because our server at corporate wasn't working.

    He had the Hawk parked in the garage, under fluorescent light, but he'd sure cleaned it up since last time I saw it. The whitewalls were white-white. They look just like the width and placement in the brochure, but at 40K miles I realize they couldn't be the factory bias-tires...although they are bias-ply (which he realizes should be replaced). He mounted the factory-repro mirror too. I was drooling.
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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,856

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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,856
    RE.: Stude's italicized font--I noticed when watching (again) a favorite clip of mine from "On The Road" (CBS Evening News) at 2:56 here, that the government used the same font:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYdjZPuSJR4
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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,409
    Interesting. Must have been a specific early computer.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,671
    Saw a Hawk last week. Wheels don't look OEM.





    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,268
    They don't look good either.

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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,856
    edited July 2020
    That looks like mostly a '63, but it's an amalgam of parts it appears. Still looks nice. '64 grille center emblem, chromed scoop on hood from a '50's Hawk; chromed taillight surrounds from a '64; decklid from a '63, etc. Thanks for posting though; I have never seen the car before and I know you're from OH too like I am.

    I always liked the optional vinyl top on the '64, the '64 wheelcovers, and the smooth, denuded decklid of the '64.

    As an aside, I see a '65 Chevy II in the pic, which is my favorite year of the first-gen Chevy II. I never cared for the '66 and '67 models at all.
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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,856
    Since my recent post involved Normandy, thought this was interesting and I just saw this posted on a Facebook page by the son of the original author, about Studebaker Weasels, which were a multi-wheeled utility thing used by the military during the war.


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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,856
    One other thing about that red Hawk--the accessory door handle guards are installed upside-down. I bet they're that way on half of the cars I see with them, LOL. Even right-side-up, I don't like them!
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  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,671
    That red Hawk was at a Columbus area cruise, Plain City Der Dutchman. I'll try to go to that one a couple more times this summer.

    I wondered if you'd seen that example before.

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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,856
    Ah, I love Der Dutchman, although I usually go to the Bellville location.

    My daughter and son-in-law are looking around Plain City for a starter home. They like that area as it's less congested and far-enough out that pricing is more-reasonable.
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  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,671
    edited July 2020
    I've driven through Plain City to and from the wedding farm location for my son's marriage. She is from Dublin. Beautiful, flat glacial country.

    Another recent sighting.


















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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,856
    I have seen that Wagonaire many times. Owner's name is Malcolm, very nice fellow.
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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,856
    edited July 2020
    The asking price is insane, but here's a very-low-mileage car (8,000, and I saw the car at Hershey a couple years ago--I believe it) on Harrisburg's Craigslist. '63 Studebaker Standard, mid-year strippo offering not even called a 'Lark' by Studebaker (although it obviously was!). Dealers were crying for something that started under $2,000, and the Standard did. I went to take a pic of this car at Hershey and my phone/camera battery went dead right then and there. Talked to the owner, and he said the original owner was a pastor.

    https://harrisburg.craigslist.org/cto/d/annville-1963-studebaker-lark/7154716243.html

    There are a good number of low-mileage Studes of the '63-66 vintage, but this is probably among the very lowest.

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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,409
    Must have been aimed at Scotsman owners who needed a new car. Are those rubber floor mats or thin carpet?
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,856
    No, that's rubber on the floor.

    My parents' '67 Chevelle 300 Deluxe, our first new car, had rubber on the floor as well, as did our '73 Nova.
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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,409
    I guess that's why floor mats became a supposed feature. Also maybe carpet became cheaper than rubber.

    My fintail has rubber in front, carpet in back - I think they were all like that, at least in first series cars. Now only work trucks have rubber floors, I think.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,856
    Looking at the interior pics in the link, no armrests must have been a PITA just when closing the doors, in cold weather when the windows were up, anyway.
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  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,268
    A 1960 Lark VIII convertible on BaT this morning, seems fairly nice. Some miscreant made a snide comment about rust that I cannot see in the photos, which might cause it to break in half. I don't know why BaT allows such comments.

    https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1960-studebaker-lark-3/

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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,856
    edited July 2020
    Thanks; I need to follow BaT. Hadn't seen it.

    I don't love the blue top, and the grille emblem is supposed to be in the bottom center (easily corrected).

    I generally like '62 and later Larks better, but there is something about a '60 in convertible form that has a 'cuteness' not seen in the later ones I think. I don't know; maybe 'jaunty' is the word. :)

    A compact convertible, and a compact V8, were Stude exclusives in the '60 model year, I'm nearly certain.
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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,409
    Looks like he even had a post flagged for removal, which takes a lot on BaT.

    Internet peanut galleries are generally toxic and shouldn't exist. However, BaT is in the business of selling clicks as much as cars.
    ab348 said:

    A 1960 Lark VIII convertible on BaT this morning, seems fairly nice. Some miscreant made a snide comment about rust that I cannot see in the photos, which might cause it to break in half. I don't know why BaT allows such comments.

    https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1960-studebaker-lark-3/

  • sdasda Member Posts: 7,572
    fintail said:

    I guess that's why floor mats became a supposed feature. Also maybe carpet became cheaper than rubber.

    My fintail has rubber in front, carpet in back - I think they were all like that, at least in first series cars. Now only work trucks have rubber floors, I think.

    The Renault 16 TL dad had as a company car had carpet in front and plastic like rubber in the back. When he got the R 30, it had nice carpet front and rear but only electric windows up front. The rear windows were manual. The R 30 was a much nicer car.

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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,409
    The power windows in front thing was common in Europe for a long time, maybe into the 2000s. I think even MB might have done it. I don't think any cars did that on this side of the pond.
    sda said:



    The Renault 16 TL dad had as a company car had carpet in front and plastic like rubber in the back. When he got the R 30, it had nice carpet front and rear but only electric windows up front. The rear windows were manual. The R 30 was a much nicer car.

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,671
    Is the R-2 engine common in the Wagonnaires?

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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,856

    Is the R-2 engine common in the Wagonnaires?


    Not at all. I can't recall if Malcolm's was built with it, or not.

    I just looked at our club magazine from 1989 (which I had handy) that shows 15 '63 Wagonaires built with R2. There would've been even fewer '64's, but that magazine is two floors down, in the basement. :)


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