I'm surprised to hear that he might have removed. I recall he was very practical about car selling and buying. I enjoyed his reality. Does anyone have his true email to find out what really happened to him?
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
Can any one tell me what dealers look at for qualifying on a new vehicle purchase. I know they look at your credit score,(and what score is a bad one) but do they look at debt to income ratio like mortgages. Every time I ask a dealer about this they look at me like If Im asking I can not qualify for a bike, someone please help me clarify this Thank You!
I didn't know you could win Pepsi for golfing? I should take up the sport
(Homer Simpson on) mmmmmmm.... Pepsi
Nice and informative article, thanks Bobst.
Now a question for a car dealer...if I am shopping for a car and plan on comparing a few similar models (Rav4/CR-V/Hyundai Santa Fe)do you try to sell your brand hard before I go test drive others or give a good test drive and detail why your brand is better, then ask me to come back after I have test driven the other cars. Or is there a fear that once I leave I might not come back, sold harder by another dealer?
I don't knock the competition. Instead I stress the benefits of owing a Honda.
I will drop a poison pill once in awhile. as an example, I'll have the shopper sit in the back seat of a CRV and I'll point out the nice legroom.
If I can see that is important to them, I'll suggest they try that on the RAV4 they are going to look at next. I might say something like...
" Toyota builds great cars but for some reason, they continue to skimp on rear legroom"
If I know resale value is important because they trade every three years I might sayu something like..." Korean cars have improved recently but they really suffer when it comes to resale value".
The Cascades might be a little to tough for me, but you are welcome to join me on the Appalachian Trail early in April. Yeah, we could be good neighbors if you don't mind a golf ball coming through your window every now and then.
By the way, I guess you missed where I asked you what you thought about Drifty's post 10827.
It seems that Drifty had a sucker for a customer, so he sold him a car for MSRP plus a lot of options, probably even including your favorite gold trim. Would you have done something like that?
I've never sold gold trim, even when it was on the menu, nor have I sold mop and glo, unless the customer asked for it first. The dealership very likely made less off of that guy than the furniture store made off of you the last time you bought a living room suit or dining suit....and they probably didn't cost $14-15k...
No, Bob, I woldn't have suggested a gold kit. I can't think of anything that hokeys up a car like a gold kit will.
As for the rest, sure!
If you were selling your own car and you were asking, say 10,000 knowing you would drop a thousand if you needed to. First one to look at the car whips out 10,000 cash.
in my case, i wouldnt sell you much...a good walk-around, but thats it.
"sir, i know your time is valuable to you. i think you will find that my vehicle is the best of the 3, but you wont know until you see the other 2. come by tomorrow, and let me know the verdict."
as a salesperson, i want you to come to me last. period. you could fall in love with my vehicle, but if you leave and run into another REALLY good salesman, it wont matter much.
if i leave some questions unanswered, i can almost assure myself that you will at least make 1 return visit...kinda like dangling a carrot.
im confident in my product, but so are all the other salespeople with competing products...i need any advantage i can get.
I have only sold four cars. Each time, I priced the cars reasonably and the people paid the price. I didn't try to sell the cars for more than I thought they were worth. I wasn't hoping some sucker would come by.
So what would I do if I was willing to drop a grand off $10K? I would offer the car for $9K and wait for a person to pay that price.
But what would I do if I sold cars for a living? I doubt I will ever find out.
You own a nice car that you're going to sell privately. It has a retail book value of $10k and all the maintenance is up to date, it looks great, etc.
You talk to your wife as she's making up the sign for the car and she asks how much you want for it. You tell her retail NADA is $10k, but you'll take $8500-9000 if you have to - "honey, put $10k on the sign..."
One guy comes in and offers $8k, and you decline to sell for that. The next potential buyer asks how much you want, you tell him you'd "like to get $10 grand, since that's retail book value", and he writes you a check.
Are you a thief or criminal for taking his money? You have a vehicle that's worth what the books say it's worth. If you take less, in fact, you'll do yourself, and your family's budget a disservice.
I'd say you did a good job, and sold a product for what it was worth. After all, you didn't ask $12k or a $10k car - that would be wrong, but it's done EVERY day, esepecially in the private market.
"But what would I do if I sold cars for a living?"
Probably go hungry. ;-)
But, I'm the same way bobst. We recently sold our 94' Buick station wagon.Had it listed at $2,000(which was a fairly good deal)with a rock bottom price(what I thought it was worth)at $1,800. The 3rd guy that looked at it offered me $1,900....I countered with $1,800.I just couldn't do it.
I don't think there is anything wrong with trying to get what the car retails for or the best resonable deal ...as long as you're not ripping somebody off.But personally as long as I get what I think my car is worth, then I'm happy.
>The 3rd guy that looked at it offered me $1,900....I countered with $1,800.
Are those numbers backwards?
I had a Mustang Pacecar listed in local trader magazines. The first guy that called asked if I still had it and said he'd take it. Asked if I'd take a certified check. This was in the days before there were games with certified checks.
I didn't feel the least bit guilty. I had priced it to come down a little but it wasn't overpriced, just nicely priced to my benefit. I just considered it a wedding present.
Last year I had a good customer that I was selling a used Eldo to. He was selling his 110,000 mile 94 Seville STS to a friend of a friend. He was telling me how this guy had been through a lot and had a tough life, etc. So he gave him a great deal. Trade value couldn't have been more than a few G's. NADA retail was crazy - High retail - $8,800 Average retail - 8,000. Sold it to him for $8,200!
The thing is, he honestly thought he was giving the guy a break. But the buyer thought it was a deal, and that's all that matters.
No, if I took the $10K I would not be a thief. I also doubt that act could be successfully prosecuted in a federal or state court, so I would not be a criminal either.
I have never sold a car worth anywhere near $10K. If the car is that nice, we either kept it or gave it to a family member.
The cars we sold were less than $2K, and I didn't want to take advantage of people who could only afford to pay that much for a car.
However, if I was selling Rollers and a rich guy like Isell came in, I would probably try to sell one for MSRP*2 (that's Fortran-speak, in case you are curious).
Is that Fortran the same language when I was in graduate school that I punched into IBM cards on a card punch machine to test and run my programs!!! That's and OLD language. Didn't realize it was still used.
You would be surprised how antiquated the IT infrastructure of the federal government is overall. I'm surprised that the IRS can actaully collect tases on the ancient rube goldberg set up they have.
I think with the languaes though, some of the specialized programs don't change becasue the old standbys do the job, and the task of changing everything over might be pretty daunting.
"I have never sold a car worth anywhere near $10K."
Bobst, I respect you. Now, will you please quit sidestepping answering my question/scenario, after posting several times to have folks respond to your question about my ethics, and answer my question?
Humor me - you HAVE a $10k car in hand, let's pretend....try it again, please, I take personal-type questions about my ethics very seriously.
****you didn't ask $12k or a $10k car - that would be wrong, but it's done EVERY day, esepecially in the private market****
Very good point Drift. Its definatly done every day in the private market. I'm dealing with it now, wanted to buy a 96 Sunfire with 80k, girl told me $2500 but when I showed up to buy the price went to $3200 because that's payoff. She says that's what the car is worth.........um, NO.
My brother-in-law lost his job 5 years ago because he didn't keep up-to-date on his his aassociate degree computer training. He didn't want to go back to school on his own dime to learn newer versions. The insurance company got bought out. Then the bank he worked for merged, and converted their database to a newer language and he was toast. Now works for Walmart/Sams.
you brought attention to a scenario I told of - I gave you a scenario - although there was only one question, it deserved your opinion on the whole scenario, not just that one little question, in order for you to fully explain your position. Sorry I wasn't more clear.
You sidestepped a full blown answer and explanation with the notion that you've never sold a car worth $10k - it doesn't matter - I made a hypothetical scenario, your actual numbers don't matter.
I'll ask this question - it's worth $10k, you advertised at $10k, but KNOW you may have to take $9k and are willing to do so - someone offers your asking price of $10k - are you going to take it?
If so, why do you have a problem with me getting "asking price" for the products I sold?
Your question is tricky. It is kind of like, "If you did this, then would you do that?"
I don't think I would do "this" in the first place.
If I believed $10K was a truly fair price, then the thought that I might only get $9K would not cross my mind.
If I believed that people would probably only pay $9K for the car, then I would ask $9K for the car.
If I asked $9K for the car and they offered $10K, would I accept it? Sure! I had done nothing to deceive them, and I am willing to accept $1000 from most anyone.
Would I try to convince people to pay $10K for a car that I knew most people could buy for $9K? Well, I can't ever recall doing something like that. Trying to take advantage of someone's ignorance is foreign to me. Fortunately, I have made a good enough living writing Fortran code that I have been pretty insulated from the dog-eat-cat world.
my question should have been "why did you see the need to bring attention to my post, TWICE, and prompt craig (isellhondas) to answer"?
Just wondering why you're going around the barn to call me out on something. I made fair money, decent money, doing a good job, selling what I was supposed to sell, getting people financed when others couldn't, and keeping dealership CSI in the black.
I certainly didn't make a killing doing F&I - in fact, I don't sell anything now, and make twice as much - ironic.
Problem is, when I'm selling a car, I don't really "know" what it's worth. I have an idea of what to ask, and know what I hope to get, but it frankly an estimate all around. Of course, I might have a minimum I would take (say 9K cash in hand), doesn't mean I don't think it's worth (or hope to get) 10K for it. And I sure wouldn't turn it down if offered!
Anyway, the economics definition of value of a good is the price at which a buyer is willing to buy and a seller is willing to sell.
Let's move off this line of conversation. It's going nowhere good.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
The example stories being used, where a private seller gets a grand or so more than he would have taken for a used car, are very different from the scenario that prompted this discussion.
The fair market value on that Neon would have been under MSRP. That guy ended up paying half again over.
A more accurate example story would be a used car valued at $9,000 with a "For Sale" sign, no price listed, offered by a private seller who wants $10,000. An uneducated buyer says "how much do you want for it?" The seller counters with "what is your offer?" And the dope says "well, the most I could manage is $15,000." Sold.
I believe that every new car deal is unique, at least in the environment of negotiating price.
I personally like the model where dealers advertise any discounted prices right up front. I know there are issues with "fixed" prices, but some of the dealers that have large web presences + aggressive pricing (Fitzmall, Autofair) seem to be doing just fine.
To the dealers, do you find that model to work better, and be more enjoyable to work in?
I guess I'm just looking for the +/- to traditional haggling dealers, and ones that are looking for high volume at lower prices to all comers.
i find that the people who come in specifically on the "price leaders" are the most difficult to work with. since they are looking for the best deal, they are used to dealers "dropping their pants" on price right up front.
the problem arises because you are starting at a place where there is nowhere left to go. i had a customer on saturday. we were looking at a used explorer priced at $28995, and ad-priced at $26888. he asked for an $800 discount, and we had nowhere to go. he walked out on $800.
i would rather discount a vehicle DURING NEGOTIATIONS rather than before someone even sees the vehicle.
May I ask how much auction fees on a vehicle are? I happened to find this small-time dealer who offers that he will locate the car you want, inspect it, buy it at auction, and charge you the actual price, plus auction fees, plus 5%. Sounds like a decent deal to me, but, for all I know, I might be paying that at any dealer (I usually take trade-in value and tack on about 10%). Thanks!
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Well..yeah.. he might have other expenses besides the auction fee.. But, most of the guys like this, pay someone $50 or so to drive the vehicles back... or, they catch a ride to the auction..
I have a former co-worker, who has a used car lot... so, I've been exposed to this way of doing business.... You can get a good deal, if you are sure this guy knows his stuff (which is why I never used my guy to get a car for myself).
Yeah, there is definitely a big question mark there as to whether or not he knows what he's doing. I don't think I'd be inclined to give him anything until I get to inspect it myself.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
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2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
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Your credit score is based on many things. They are looking at your past history, debt ratio, income, number of open accounts etc.
I've been absent for a long while, but had recently wondered where Bowke was. I know Terry's still around, but he seems busier than normal.
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Nice and informative article, thanks Bobst.
Now a question for a car dealer...if I am shopping for a car and plan on comparing a few similar models (Rav4/CR-V/Hyundai Santa Fe)do you try to sell your brand hard before I go test drive others or give a good test drive and detail why your brand is better, then ask me to come back after I have test driven the other cars. Or is there a fear that once I leave I might not come back, sold harder by another dealer?
What is the best way to handle the situation?
As a customer ???
I will drop a poison pill once in awhile. as an example, I'll have the shopper sit in the back seat of a CRV and I'll point out the nice legroom.
If I can see that is important to them, I'll suggest they try that on the RAV4 they are going to look at next. I might say something like...
" Toyota builds great cars but for some reason, they continue to skimp on rear legroom"
If I know resale value is important because they trade every three years I might sayu something like..." Korean cars have improved recently but they really suffer when it comes to resale value".
I'm not a hard sell and I have no fear of loss.
By the way, I guess you missed where I asked you what you thought about Drifty's post 10827.
It seems that Drifty had a sucker for a customer, so he sold him a car for MSRP plus a lot of options, probably even including your favorite gold trim. Would you have done something like that?
I've never sold gold trim, even when it was on the menu, nor have I sold mop and glo, unless the customer asked for it first. The dealership very likely made less off of that guy than the furniture store made off of you the last time you bought a living room suit or dining suit....and they probably didn't cost $14-15k...
As for the rest, sure!
If you were selling your own car and you were asking, say 10,000 knowing you would drop a thousand if you needed to. First one to look at the car whips out 10,000 cash.
What would YOU do?
"sir, i know your time is valuable to you. i think you will find that my vehicle is the best of the 3, but you wont know until you see the other 2. come by tomorrow, and let me know the verdict."
as a salesperson, i want you to come to me last. period. you could fall in love with my vehicle, but if you leave and run into another REALLY good salesman, it wont matter much.
if i leave some questions unanswered, i can almost assure myself that you will at least make 1 return visit...kinda like dangling a carrot.
im confident in my product, but so are all the other salespeople with competing products...i need any advantage i can get.
So what would I do if I was willing to drop a grand off $10K? I would offer the car for $9K and wait for a person to pay that price.
But what would I do if I sold cars for a living? I doubt I will ever find out.
You own a nice car that you're going to sell privately. It has a retail book value of $10k and all the maintenance is up to date, it looks great, etc.
You talk to your wife as she's making up the sign for the car and she asks how much you want for it. You tell her retail NADA is $10k, but you'll take $8500-9000 if you have to - "honey, put $10k on the sign..."
One guy comes in and offers $8k, and you decline to sell for that. The next potential buyer asks how much you want, you tell him you'd "like to get $10 grand, since that's retail book value", and he writes you a check.
Are you a thief or criminal for taking his money? You have a vehicle that's worth what the books say it's worth. If you take less, in fact, you'll do yourself, and your family's budget a disservice.
I'd say you did a good job, and sold a product for what it was worth. After all, you didn't ask $12k or a $10k car - that would be wrong, but it's done EVERY day, esepecially in the private market.
Probably go hungry. ;-)
But, I'm the same way bobst. We recently sold our 94' Buick station wagon.Had it listed at $2,000(which was a fairly good deal)with a rock bottom price(what I thought it was worth)at $1,800. The 3rd guy that looked at it offered me $1,900....I countered with $1,800.I just couldn't do it.
I don't think there is anything wrong with trying to get what the car retails for or the best resonable deal ...as long as you're not ripping somebody off.But personally as long as I get what I think my car is worth, then I'm happy.
Are those numbers backwards?
I had a Mustang Pacecar listed in local trader magazines. The first guy that called asked if I still had it and said he'd take it. Asked if I'd take a certified check. This was in the days before there were games with certified checks.
I didn't feel the least bit guilty. I had priced it to come down a little but it wasn't overpriced, just nicely priced to my benefit. I just considered it a wedding present.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Last year I had a good customer that I was selling a used Eldo to. He was selling his 110,000 mile 94 Seville STS to a friend of a friend. He was telling me how this guy had been through a lot and had a tough life, etc. So he gave him a great deal. Trade value couldn't have been more than a few G's. NADA retail was crazy - High retail - $8,800 Average retail - 8,000. Sold it to him for $8,200!
The thing is, he honestly thought he was giving the guy a break. But the buyer thought it was a deal, and that's all that matters.
I have never sold a car worth anywhere near $10K. If the car is that nice, we either kept it or gave it to a family member.
The cars we sold were less than $2K, and I didn't want to take advantage of people who could only afford to pay that much for a car.
However, if I was selling Rollers and a rich guy like Isell came in, I would probably try to sell one for MSRP*2 (that's Fortran-speak, in case you are curious).
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I think with the languaes though, some of the specialized programs don't change becasue the old standbys do the job, and the task of changing everything over might be pretty daunting.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Bobst, I respect you. Now, will you please quit sidestepping answering my question/scenario, after posting several times to have folks respond to your question about my ethics, and answer my question?
Humor me - you HAVE a $10k car in hand, let's pretend....try it again, please, I take personal-type questions about my ethics very seriously.
Very good point Drift. Its definatly done every day in the private market. I'm dealing with it now, wanted to buy a 96 Sunfire with 80k, girl told me $2500 but when I showed up to buy the price went to $3200 because that's payoff. She says that's what the car is worth.........um, NO.
They really are using Fortran programs!!!?
My brother-in-law lost his job 5 years ago because he didn't keep up-to-date on his his aassociate degree computer training. He didn't want to go back to school on his own dime to learn newer versions. The insurance company got bought out. Then the bank he worked for merged, and converted their database to a newer language and he was toast. Now works for Walmart/Sams.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
In post 10908, I answered "No".
Was there another question I failed to answer?
No calls through the paper so he parked it smack-dab int he middle of student country with a FS sign... so he gets a call from some 20-year-old:
...
KID: "Well, I just don't think it's worth $6000. But I'll give you $5000 for it."
JON: "I've had 3 calls on it today... you want it, it's six grand."
KID: "No, no, we're negotiating now... you have to say a number which is more than I said but less than $6000..."
Just great. He took it for $6 in the end.
-Mathias
You sidestepped a full blown answer and explanation with the notion that you've never sold a car worth $10k - it doesn't matter - I made a hypothetical scenario, your actual numbers don't matter.
I'll ask this question - it's worth $10k, you advertised at $10k, but KNOW you may have to take $9k and are willing to do so - someone offers your asking price of $10k - are you going to take it?
If so, why do you have a problem with me getting "asking price" for the products I sold?
I don't think I would do "this" in the first place.
If I believed $10K was a truly fair price, then the thought that I might only get $9K would not cross my mind.
If I believed that people would probably only pay $9K for the car, then I would ask $9K for the car.
If I asked $9K for the car and they offered $10K, would I accept it? Sure! I had done nothing to deceive them, and I am willing to accept $1000 from most anyone.
Would I try to convince people to pay $10K for a car that I knew most people could buy for $9K? Well, I can't ever recall doing something like that. Trying to take advantage of someone's ignorance is foreign to me. Fortunately, I have made a good enough living writing Fortran code that I have been pretty insulated from the dog-eat-cat world.
Just wondering why you're going around the barn to call me out on something. I made fair money, decent money, doing a good job, selling what I was supposed to sell, getting people financed when others couldn't, and keeping dealership CSI in the black.
I certainly didn't make a killing doing F&I - in fact, I don't sell anything now, and make twice as much - ironic.
Anyway, the economics definition of value of a good is the price at which a buyer is willing to buy and a seller is willing to sell.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Because I was curious what he thought about your behavior.
We trapped him.
Funny, becasue I've asked the same question here over the years and NEVER ONCE have I recieved a straight answer.
OK...my car has a retail book of 5000.00. I know it's in great shape so I'm going to advertise it for the full 5000.00.
But knowing how people love to haggle, I've already made up my mind I'll take the first offer of 4500.00 or more. I just want to be done with it.
First guy shows up...
" What a nice car! Here's the 5000.00 you are asking!"
" Ah...don't you want to offer less?"
" Well...I think it's a good value at 5000.00"
" I'll take 500.00 less!"
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The fair market value on that Neon would have been under MSRP. That guy ended up paying half again over.
A more accurate example story would be a used car valued at $9,000 with a "For Sale" sign, no price listed, offered by a private seller who wants $10,000. An uneducated buyer says "how much do you want for it?" The seller counters with "what is your offer?" And the dope says "well, the most I could manage is $15,000." Sold.
If you STILL don't understand, read driftracer's question to you.
I'm done with this...again!
I personally like the model where dealers advertise any discounted prices right up front. I know there are issues with "fixed" prices, but some of the dealers that have large web presences + aggressive pricing (Fitzmall, Autofair) seem to be doing just fine.
To the dealers, do you find that model to work better, and be more enjoyable to work in?
I guess I'm just looking for the +/- to traditional haggling dealers, and ones that are looking for high volume at lower prices to all comers.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
the problem arises because you are starting at a place where there is nowhere left to go. i had a customer on saturday. we were looking at a used explorer priced at $28995, and ad-priced at $26888. he asked for an $800 discount, and we had nowhere to go. he walked out on $800.
i would rather discount a vehicle DURING NEGOTIATIONS rather than before someone even sees the vehicle.
Are the ones who make the lowest offers?
Funny how that works...
"...sir, i dont play games...this is my livelihood."
usually this sentence is followed by an offer...lol.
Neither do I. That money they're trying to take unecessarily is money we had to earn making our livelihood.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
May I ask how much auction fees on a vehicle are? I happened to find this small-time dealer who offers that he will locate the car you want, inspect it, buy it at auction, and charge you the actual price, plus auction fees, plus 5%. Sounds like a decent deal to me, but, for all I know, I might be paying that at any dealer (I usually take trade-in value and tack on about 10%). Thanks!
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I have a former co-worker, who has a used car lot... so, I've been exposed to this way of doing business.... You can get a good deal, if you are sure this guy knows his stuff (which is why I never used my guy to get a car for myself).
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Yeah, there is definitely a big question mark there as to whether or not he knows what he's doing. I don't think I'd be inclined to give him anything until I get to inspect it myself.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I don't think I would want to buy a car sight unseen. There are too many variables and I tend to get selective in my choices.