Dealer's Tricks - bait & switch, etc.

cadillacmike · July 2005

"I know I should have paid more attention to the documents I signed, but who would bother to look at the contract to make sure the VIN was correct? "

Anybody who is paying ATTENTION would. Insurance, ownership, etc., are all affected. I'll bet there was some option on the car you didn't get that is not on the car you did get. Read the documents folks!

thenebean · July 2005

stickers are not changed to reflect price increases if the car was built before the price increase date. the only time i have seen nissan send us new stickers was when they changed the wording on one of the options on the armada, and then right on the sticker in big letters it lets you know that it is a replacement sticker (price was not affected)

now, there are ADDENDUM stickers that some dealers add to vehicles for pinstriping, simoniz, additional market value markup, etc - but those are seperate from the Monroney stickers that are federally mandated

-thene

user777 · July 2005

i agree and one should not purchase a vehicle without the original sticker present.

stickguy · July 2005

can actually be printed (and put on by the dealer (I think they can print them, or maybe have to get it sent to them), but they are the same as the original, just a replacement. Sometimes they get damaged and have to be replaced.

lhess · July 2005

the poster did mention that he/she was buying xyz car, got to the lot, found out xyz was not available and bought abc car. Could be a failure to change the Vin to the second choice car? I would expect that it was an honest mistake on behalf of the dealer. I can't imagine that they would have anything to gain by doing something like that.

I usually have the VIN right there with me at signing (right it down off the car at some point) because I've already used it to check insurance....and I can double-check all the paperwork. However, I can see that someone who isn't worried about insurance and had no reason to get the VIN may not even think to check it on the paperwork.

thenebean · July 2005

you're right - it could be an honest mistake!

i once priced out and sold a vehicle that i thought was an automatic transmission - and then found out it was manual, and had to eat the difference and change the VIN when i contacted the person. sometimes things happen - and dealers and salespeople arent ALWAYS trying to screw someone - people make mistakes! give them the benefit of the doubt, and the chance to make it right.

on the other hand, regarding that paperwork that allows them to come up with whatever they want on financing - i've never heard of such a thing, and i wouldn't have signed it without knowing what it was i was signing. did they explain that form to you? good luck getting everything straightened out!

-thene

rroyce10 · July 2005

..... I don't think I would get my pants in a bunch here, it will ocassionally happen - rare, but it does happen ...

I did a 500 unit fleet deal and 3 of the 500 were posted incorrectly from the factory with the incorrect Vin#'s .. what is really important is to check all of the options and make sure they're correct, in my case the slider was not shown on the MSRP even though 2 had one .. now it didn't effect the fleet cost "across" the board, but could have been a problem with a regular buyer ..l.o.l.....

Like someone has mentioned, call the Ins co with the correct Vin# and the dealer will have the lender do a direct exchange on the phone, but you would be covered because it's a paper mistake, it could have even been computer mistake in-house -- who nows.? .....

Terry.

jb_turner · July 2005

I will not cover every aspect of your experience however in a nutshell you should have read and looked over the car BEFORE you signed then you would not be in this situation. You had also mentioned several times you paid cash.. in general a dealer would perfer you to finance.

sidlehuth · July 2005

I called my insurance company today to check if the correct VIN was on the policy(it was). It looks like the dealer found their mistake. I am waiting to see if the dealer will try to "bump" up the interest rate before I let them know of their mistake with the VIN. If they try to bump it, I feel I have a wild card to play with their mistake. The vehicle is safely parked in my garage until this thing gets straightened out. They also made a point of letting us know about their customer satisfaction survey and how they hope we fill it out favorably for them(another card to play). I'll give it until the end of this week or until I get my payment book in the mail.

rroyce10 · July 2005

...... You kinda got me lost here ... what wild card.? .. it's a simple mistake made by the manufacturer, maybe the dealer and it's been cleared up .. the vehicle is insured and you have it parked in the garage ...?!?

Terry.

user777 · July 2005

confused. essentially - you don't know what the final payoff amount for the vehicle is - because you don't know the interest rate of the loan, right?

mikefm58 · July 2005

" They also made a point of letting us know about their customer satisfaction survey and how they hope we fill it out favorably for them "

The cust. sat. survey is your wild card, not the messed up VIN. that will get taken care of and it sounds like your almost there.
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I'd kindly remind them of your fears about the interest rate and tell them it will be reflected on the cust. sat. survey.......i.e. low interest rate = great cust. sat. survey.
.
You get the VIN mixup straightened out and also get a low interest rate, and they get a good survey.....a win win.....

guss · July 2005

and of course as someone pointed out earlier , go to your bank or credit union and check the rate you qualify for there. You need to know this, you basically gave the dealer a blank check to charge you whatever interest rate he feels you will accept.

You need to do this today BEFORE they put it thru their bank.

rowlandj · July 2005

Even there things could happen; you need to get this insurance straight as you may have problems if you don't.

sdnumde · July 2005

I got a price from a Toyota internet salesman, he told me in the email that I can get $750 new graduation rebate. Before I went to the dealer, I called them to make sure the $750 rebate.
The price is okay, so I didnt negotiate. I just wanted to save both my and the dealers time. I brought my transcript and diploma, and the dealer made a copy and confirmed the rebate again. Hence, I sat down and begun doing the paperwork. I was very carefully when I signed first several documents. Before I signed, I checked the price. Somehow, the dealer suggested me calling my insurance to add the new car in. After the call, he let me sign the rest documents. While I was continuing signing, I suddenly found that I was signing another contract, which has no rebate! The final price is $750 higher than the first contract I signed. The dealer said, Your supporting documents look good for the rebate. But it comes from Toyota. If your rebate is rejected by Toyota, you have to pay the second price. Thats why you should sign two contracts. Its ridiculous! I called my friends right way, who just bought toyato couple of months ago. None of them signed two contracts, although some of them only got $400 graduation rebate. I refused to sign the second contract. The dealer said that if you dont want to sign the second one, you can give us a $750 check now. If your rebated is approved by Toyota, we will not cash it.  He claimed that its a rule to all the customers, not only to me. I dont believe him, and the deal is broken.
Now I am so worried about the first purchase and financial contract I signed. Before I left their office, the dealer took away all the documents. I asked him. He said, the documents will be void, since I didnt pay the down payment, the whole process is not done. I didnt buy and he didnt sell. Is it true? Will it give me trouble later??? Anybody has the same experience? Thanks

alfox · July 2005

I'd like to have seen that first contract torn up before I left, but there is little damage done since it included the price and rebate you accepted. If they call back and say that Toyota agree to the rebate, just go ahead with the deal. But before you sign at another dealer, make sure that deal is indeed dead.

In the future, the way to handle it would be to sign only the first contract, and tell them you will not take delivery until Toyota makes a decision. If it is approved, you will go ahead with the deal. If it is not, you want your deposit back that day. If they don't agree to those terms, find another dealer.

goodfella499 · July 2005

I'm a finance manager at a large, multi-dealership organization in the Midwest. I'm the guy that prints and handles all the mysterious paperwork that seems to cause so much confusion. First, let's deal with the person who has a wrong VIN number and the form that allows the dealership to change the rate.

As far as the VIN # discrepency goes, 999 chances out of 1000 that was just an honest mistake. Switching cars in mid-negotiation, and just plain old human error cause this kind of thing much more regularly than you'd think. However, you need to have the dealership print new paperwork with the correct VIN # on it and go in and resign them. If you don't, you're going to have a host of ownership problems down the road--i.e. registration, titling, personal property tax, resale, trade in, etc. If the dealership tells you that they "took care of it" for you, what that really means is that they didn't want to risk calling you back in to resign for fear that you would back out of the deal, and so they printed new paperwork with the correct VIN and forged your signature and sent it in--since the price and payments won't change, the chances that you'd ever find out without someone like me telling you are slim to none.

Now, the document you're so concerned about is a called an "Avidavit of Spot Delivery". Contrary to your first impression, it does NOT give the dealership the authority to change your interest rate. It is a standard document used in many states to protect the dealership when they contract a customer whose financing has not been officially approved yet--after banking hours, Saturday and Sunday, etc. All it really does is insure that if, for some reason, your financing is declined or the terms change, you are legally obligated to return the car to them. For example, I look at your credit and feel that on Monday morning, my favorite bank will approve you for 6% interest. It's Saturday evening and the bank is closed, but I don't want you to leave without signing the dotted line. I have you sign the Spot form and on Monday, the bank approves the loan, but at 7% interest instead. Well, the Spot form will NOT allow me to change your rate. You would have to come in and resign a new contract. However, the form DOES give me the right to give you an ultimatum--resign at the new rate, or return the car. The old contract is now null and void.

Now, for the guy whose dealership asked him to sign 2 contracts--RUN!! Run as fast and as far as you can! This is a VERY old-school car salesman trick that went out of vogue with tail-fins and sock-hops. Even if they tell you that your rebate has been approved, DO NOT DO BUSINESS WITH THAT DEALERSHIP. If they would try that old--hack stuff with you, there is no limit to the lines that they would cross.

imidazol97 · July 2005

Are you really a finance person for a large dealership? You misspelled affidavit in your post as avidavit.

>"Avidavit of Spot Delivery".

goodfella499 · July 2005

Well, you got me there pal...I typed a full page in five minutes in the middle of a twelve hour work day and I misspelled one word...obviously I must be lying about my profession or must not know what I'm talking about. I do congratulate you, however, on mastering the skill of spell-check--that'll take you far in life.

bobst · July 2005

So I guess it is not possible to be an F&I guy and still have a sense of humor?

subprimeguy · July 2005

Actually, Drift, that's not true. We are not allowed to say "Yes that is the best rate you qualify for" when we are holding points. We are, however, allowed to say things along the line of "Anything lower doesn't make sense for us" Nor do we have to give away the points. And, yes, I can usually get a better rate than the credit unions. And all I do is subprime.

danf1 · July 2005

Actually us F&I guys have to have a sense of humor. We play the middle man role between the salespeople, customers and managers. We usually get three totally different stories. If we couldn't laugh at what goes on here, we probably would have commited suicide within weeks.

But we are better at numbers than speeling in most cases.

(I hope everybody caught that one)

It has aslo been brghout to my atneiton taht no mtater how you atclulay spell msot wrods in the Egnilsh lnauage, poelpe can slitl raed it as lnog as the frsit and lsat ltetres are in the crorcet odrer.

Kirstie_H · July 2005

Welcome to the Forums, goodfella499! Sorry the spelling police cited you right away, but most folks around here are pretty nice, and I'm sure it was meant in jest. We have had a few imposters, but they rarely give themselves away with a single spelling mistake - usually it's really, really bad advice!

I know where you work (I'm in St. Louis), and you're a legit organization. Glad to have you here, and thanks for the advice you're giving to our members who are shopping.

fredvh · July 2005

Glad to have you here goodfella. We will appreciate your advice in the next few months.

mikefm58 · July 2005

As others have already said, welcome aboard, and glad to see you have a sense of humor. I'm not in the biz myself, but do enjoy debating and learning from folks like yourself.
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Thx for clearing up the issues with the affidavit, makes perfect sense to me. I'm sure the issues you brought up were spelled out in the paper work, but the original poster failed to mention them.
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It does bring up a question though, let's say I bought Fri night, banks are closed, Monday is a holiday and I take a loooooong weekend drive and put on about 1000 miles. Tuesday the bank says no way to 6%, best they can do is 9% for example. Would the dealer want to take back a used car with 1000 miles?

goodfella499 · July 2005

Excellent question. That's the risk that we run when we let a person leave the dealership without officially approved financing. If that situation occurred, the most likely scenario is that the dealership would slash the price on the car to the point where they were losing money, so that the 9% payment would be similar to the 6% payment that you signed up for. It would be worth the loss to avoid taking back a high mileage car. Then they'd ask you to come back in and resign. The thing is though, we can't MAKE you sign, so if you refuse, we take the car back--plain and simple. Fortunately, most finance managers are good enough at their job to know what the bank is going to approve before they decide to let a customer roll away in a car without an approved loan. When I miss (which is rare) I don't miss by much.

mark156 · July 2005

Danf1, your message about spelling was hilarious!

user777 · July 2005

i found it very funny myself. i guess you could be a bad speller but you wouldn't want to get the order of the digits in your figures wrong.

which brings me to this contrived (?) question, since i'm sure it never happens: if the F+I rep puts down the wrong figures and the customer signs, (say they are wrong to the customer's advantage, or to the dealers advantage - either way), what is the standard and proper procedure to make the situation right?

danf1 · July 2005

That depends upon how much of a discrepancy there is. If it is not much and to the customers favor, we will usually eat it. If it is to our favor and the customer notices the error, we fix it. I can't say that it never happens, but it is unusual. Keep in mind that on a busy day at my dealership, I may sign out 15 - 20 deals. I have been known to make an honest mistake from time to time, but not often enough to cause concern. I guess that is why I still have my job.

goodfella499 · July 2005

Different states have different laws, so this answer may not apply to you. In the state where I work, there are laws in place to protect both the customer and the dealership from things like typographical errors. If I accidentally type on the contract that you put down $10,000 instead of $1,000 and you sign it, I can't then turn around and capitalize on your mistake and send you to collections for the 9k you "shorted" us. The same works in reverse to protect the dealership--a 30K car that accidentally gets written up as a 3k car doesn't stay that way. The hitch is in the "oh, crap what do we do now" moment that the mistake is discovered. Generally there are three choices--the parties involved can live with the mistake ( the usual outcome if the mistake is small and usually if it favors the customer), the mistake can be corrected (the usual outcome if the mistake favors the dealership and the customer insists), and the whole deal can be called null and void and the customer returns the car (the absolute last resort in the most difficult of situations). The catch is that both parties have to agree on one of these solutions. If they can't, then that's when a document called a Spot Delivery Form kicks in ( at least in my state) and the repo man is called in to pull the car and the contracts are shredded. Now, this is rare. I've been in this business 6 years now, and I've only seen it happen once.

goodfella499 · July 2005

After reading what I just wrote, it appears I just said the same thing you said, but in a much more long-winded form. Sorry about that, I never claimed brevity to be one of my stronger qualities.

danf1 · July 2005

No need to apologize. The rule of 21's applies around here so reinforcement is a good thing.

rroyce10 · July 2005

.... ** brevity ..**

Dang.! .. another word I have to look up ....

Terry.

cadillacmike · July 2005

This happenned to me once, about $177 overcharge on a $21,000 car. I caught it the next day, went to the dealer showed them the calcs and in 10 minutes I had a check for $177. This was 13 years ago (back in the so called "bad old days") and the dealer was more than cooperative - there was a calc error, that's all.

Then again there was another time when a different dealer deliberately extended the first month's payment on a loan to 45 days, resulting in a larger monthly payment. This I caught in the F&I office and was none too pleased about it. :mad: My next car wasn't bought from them (I went to the guys at the top of this post instead) and I liked the replacement car much better too.

And if there's any spelling mistakes, too bad, I can't type (but I can spell :P )

alfox · July 2005

.... ** brevity ..**

Dang.! .. another word I have to look up ....

At least it's a short one...... </;^)

mark156 · July 2005

But, I just don't understand all of these mistakes going on. 15 or 20 deals in a day? That's maybe 2 or 3 an hour average? The computers should catch most of these and what are you paying people for? Office help should be trained to post these 15-20 deals a day without so many errors. It's not rocket science!!!!

Mark

goodfella499 · July 2005

Wow...I don't even know where to begin responding to that.

First...The average delivery (the time you spend with the F&I manager) takes approximately 30 minutes. So, 20 deals would take approximately 10 hours if they were perfectly spaced. The problem is, they're not. Usually, we all sit around twiddling our thumbs for 8 out of 12 hours, and then 7 deals close within a 20 minute time span. The customers are all cranky and tired because they've just spent 2 hours with the "evil salesman" and agreed to drop 30 thousand dollars of their hard earned money. Everyone wants to get in and out as quickly as possible. The F&I guy is printing paperwork at roughly the speed of light trying to keep up with the rush, prevent shaky customers with buyer's remorse from having time to back out, prepare his pitch on after-sale products (warranties, insurance, etc.), go fast enough that the customer doesn't grill the dealership on the satisfaction survey, and still accurately process 10-20 pieces of legal paperwork. Mistakes happen. I mean, think about it for a second...If the cashier at your local gas station can screw up the change on a $10 transaction, then perhaps you should be a little more understanding if a "t" doesn't get crossed or an "i" doesn't get dotted. As far as the "office help" goes...HA!! Maybe I'm alone here, but our office help never touches the deal until at least 24 hours after the paperwork has been signed, and then, I'm lucky if they don't lose your $15,000 check. Being an F&I manager is like like being a stock broker or a loan officer with the unpredictable rushes and customer temper issues of a short order cook. I know, "boo-hoo the poor car salesman". I'm not complaining. I love my job and I'm well compensated for it, but for someone to imply that mistakes are the result of incompetence or laziness is simply ridiculous. Mistakes are the exception, not the rule, but understanding and tolerance are appreciated as much in our business as they are in any other.

rroyce10 · July 2005

........ We need to get you to paragraph school ...

Terry :shades:

rroyce10 · July 2005

........... If an F&I guy is doing 15/20 deals a day that's a lot of biz - maybe the store is doing 400+ units a month ...

That said, there can be alot of changes in the finance office ....

Maybe the folks have decided to go from 48 months to 66 (or vice versa), perhaps they decided to get the extended warranty then changed their minds in the middle of everything, or they decide to take the warranty 10 minutes after signing everything and all of it has to be redone, maybe the pay-off was incorrect by $453.27 and the whole deal has to be reworked and reprinted - and lets hope we don't have a customer that wants to use a different home address so he can save tax money and someone has to spend 17 minutes "splaining" how "you can't do that" ...l.o.l....

There is a whole potpourri of things that can and do go on - maybe the the customer even changed their minds and want the red one, so you never know ... then, depending on the deal, you have to wait for the final approval from the lender to make sure there isn't any "stips" or a "condition" .... then the finance department will check and "wash" the deal -- it gets busy in there ....

Terry

imidazol97 · July 2005

>We need to get you to paragraph school ...
We can overlook shortage of paragraphs because the spelling is great!

On serious note: I am amazed at the frustration some posts show on the part of people selling the cars. I'd always thought I'd try a car sales job after I retired. But it sounds a little heavy on the stress for me now.

mikefm58 · July 2005

" I'd always thought I'd try a car sales job after I retired. But it sounds a little heavy on the stress for me now. "

Same here. Or even work at Carmax part time. But I'd believe that Carmax is less stressful since the car price is set.

damish003 · July 2005

Geez, Terry, you're worried about having to learn a new word like "brevity", but you correctly use and spell "potpourri". Your claims of being spelling-challenged are getting weaker. Heh,heh. :P

-Dan-

cadillacmike · July 2005

"The F&I guy is printing paperwork at roughly the speed of light trying to keep up with the rush, "

You must clarify here. The correct description would be "at the speed of light in total darkness"

The local Cadillac dealer F&I office prints out all the paperwork on a gigantic DOT MATRIX printer, and we all know how fast those things are, right up there with a stone & chisel :P

danf1 · July 2005

I get a lot of criticism about my dot matrix printer, but keep in mind that we are printing three to five part carbonless papers. How would a non impact printer work for me?

rroyce10 · July 2005

....... Bud, if it wasn't for Spell Check it would look alot like this -- potporieu, or poppour or early in the AM - podndhdhod ........

Thank God for ~~spel, spul, spal~~ spell check .....

Terry :P

user777 · July 2005

i think it's actually spell-check.

mark156 · July 2005

Goodfella499 and rroyce10..... You are right, a lot can change when working with SO many types of customers.

I guess I was thinking of my last two transactions which have been very simple.

I find the car I want on the lot or order it, make the deal with the salesman---test drive, etc.

I am then sent back to the clerk at the desk running the computer paperwork, I have a check in hand, I sign paperwork, I give the clerk the check and then I go outside for the salesman to show me my new car.

I've never been offered long spiels about extra warranties or add-on's of any kind. They make it simple.

QUESTION... rroyce10, what kind of dealerships to you have (brands)?

Mark

cadillacmike · July 2005

Dan,

I'm not criticizing the dot matrix printer. This is actually a use for which it excells and for which, a laser or inkjet would just cause a mess with all the multipart forms, some of which need to be signed. You'd need to hire a collater! It's just the size of that one in the F&I office. It prints out about a 20" square sheet (maybe a bit smaller

) Way back, I actually had to program dot matrix graphics on some invoices for a person who was too cheap to spring for pre-printed graphics on his invoices. Talk about bit banging. :P

Let's not ovelook that many of the little POS terminals are actually little DM printers!

And Kirsty don't go deleting this post either!

Point
Of
Sale

not the other POS!

Kirstie_H · July 2005

OK, but my trigger finger got itchy there for a second!

nyrefugee · July 2005

Damn sdnumde, they worked you good.

I would not be that worried about the contract. That is because the contract did include the deal that you wanted so if they try to hold you to it, it wont be bad for you. The reason they took the contract away is so you dont keep a copy of it, because the dealership is bound by a contract as much as you are and if they let you have a copy you might make them give you a car with the 750 rebate.

If you want to buy another car and are worried about that contract coming back to haunt you, send a signed letter saying that because THEY refused to give you the car for the price you wanted you do not consider yourself bound by the contract. Make sure that the letter makes it clear that the dealership were the ones that broke the deal not you. Keep a copy of the letter for yourself.

I would also send a letter to Toyota explaining just how the dealer treated you and how pissed off you are. Toyota does not like having their customers chased out of storerooms by greedy dealers so they will make sure to punish the dealership accordingly.

If you have some extra time and want to annoy them, you can go in and say that you spoke to your dad or something and found out that you have a right to get the car according to the first contract with the rebate. Nothing will really come out of it because you dont have a copy of the contract and they will probably destroy theirs. But it will annoy them for sure.

Dealer's Tricks - bait & switch, etc.

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