Owning an Audi past the warranty is too risky even for the very wealthy -- and this goes for BMW's, Volvo's, Jags, Merc's etc etc etc. Heck it probably goes for Lexus, Infinity, Acura, too!
Insurance companies have very sophisticated systems for figuring risk and stay in business by taking in more in premiums thatn they shell out in losses. Generally they figure in a healthy margin.
Chances are you'll never recover what you paid out.
I've dealt with University (formerly Park Place) and Boardwalk (formerly The Audi Store). Both have their good and bad points. I've received good service on my A6 at both places, but since I live close to Boardwalk and my salesman moved over from University, I'll use Boardwalk. There is another new dealer Ballergean (sp) that I'm not familiar with. You can email me personally if you want specifics, i.e. pricing, etc.
Of course, all insurance is sold at an ultimate profit by the issuer. Let's put it this way - I shell about about $675 a month for family health coverage (I own my business, so I pay the whole cost). I do not expect anyone to get sick, and in most years my out of pocket health expenditures would be (much) less than my premiums. It would be decidedly inconvenient, to say the least, to be in a car wreck or need emergency surgery and be suddenly faced with a $20000 hospital bill. For me and most people, the cost of the premiums is worth the knowledge that an unforseen emergency will bring financial ruin.
An extended warranty is the same thing. If you might not be able to afford the potential repairs, get the warranty. If you take 100 people with extended warranties, the majority will not get their money's worth - that's the nature of the business. You just don't want to be the poor shmuck that would get his money's worth. This applies double when the car is expensive to repair, like an Audi.
I've been reading with great interest the opinion of all the Audi owners here who are of the consensus that keeping an Audi (or BMW, or MB, etc) past the warranty period can be extremely risky and potentially expensive. But then the question that begs to be asked is: Who then in his right mind would buy a used Audi? Maybe unless the price is so low that he could factor in potential repair costs and still make it viable? But if that's the case, it would mean Audis have very steep depreciation curve. So is it no-win situation? Maybe the answer is ALWAYS buy extended warranties. Since they are transferrable, they would also help keep the resale value high even if one decides to sell before the factory warranty runs out.
As I mentioned before, I just turned in my 99 A6Q and we still have our '99 328i. I've also looked at the Passat GLX. I'm probably going to go with another Audi because I like their warranty over the others BMW and Passat. BMW has free maintenance over 3 years, VW has no free maintenance and Audi has 4 years of free maintenance includong brake pads, wiper blades, etc. Also if you're looking at the Passat with the V6, it's the previous 6 cyl. that was used in the Audi. Also, unless you need quattro in Dallas which I had before and probably won't get again here in Big D, also the Audi has the fantastic CVT which neither the BMW nor Passat have if your look for an automatic. Not to mention the differences in the quality of the interiors-I think Audi looks the best IMHO. BMW service sucks big time. Classic BMW in Richardson takes 3-4 times to fix the same warranty problem. My advice, choose carefully. Let me know if I can answer any more questions.
No one in their right mind. Everyone knows how expensive parts are on a used German car. An old co-worker of mine had an Audi 90 that was old, and it was in the shop left and right for repairs. She finally found it more financially sound go to and get an Outback wagon to replace it.
I cannot think of any reason to buy a European Car (excluding the super luxo or super exotics) that is out of warranty (unless you collect them and the one you want to acquire is somehow desirable from the collector's point of view).
Other than the legendary $1,500 "pickemup truck" that you and four of your neighbors chip in $300 apiece on to buy as the shared truck-resource of the block, I cannot really think of any car from any country that I would want as my "daily driver" that I would risk acquiring "out of warranty."
All cars are soooo expensive to repair anymore, the risk seems too high.
Most financial nerd-types will tell you that it is fine to own a car out of warranty, but they usually recommend setting aside money every month for anticipated repairs, with the assumption being that an older car will need periodic fixes. I think that few people have the discipline to do this.
Audis are full of techno-wizardry. The A4 has quattro, ESP, electronic throttle, extensive computer management, a turbo in some models, etc. All of these things can break. In comparison, the 1980 Dodge Omni I drove in high school had maybe 5 moving parts in total, 2 of which never worked when I owned it. Much less complex, and much less to break (and it still left me stranded twice that I can remember).
Well after having 26,500 trouble free miles, gremlins found their way into my 1.8T engine and my friend's 2000 Passat 1.8T engine, both happening this past weekend.
In my car, it started to develop a LOUD ticking sound in the engine compartment. At first I thought maybe the drivetrain hit something loose. I based that on the fact that it the ticking sound only comes when the engine is below 1100rpm and goes away after that. But when it's below 1100rpm, it's LOUD. To give you a comparison, it's as loud as a Ford F350 diesel pickup, except it's a ticking sound. The sound can be heard at both in gear and in neutral. However there's no observed loss of power. Drove the car to the nearest dealership and the service advisors took a look. They called me back the next day and said they determined it's the ENTIRE engine head that's at fault. Talking about some metal (maybe the lifters) hitting the head and the engine needs a new head. Translation: the complete top part and 1/4 down the top part of the engine will be replaced! And they STRONGLY advised me not to drive it although they were surprised that the Check Engine Light didn't come on. THANK GOD it's under warranty. The service advisor said it will cost a few grand, courtesy of Audi. I'll be out of town the next 2 days and they promise when I'm back by Wednesday, I should be able to pick my baby up. Gotta give them some credit for squeezing the big fix in their schedule. Let's hope the engine head is really the cause.
So I'm stuck with a rental Neon. So after having lunch with some friends who one of them has a 2000 Passat 1.8T, I got teased that the VW 1.8T engines are better than the Audi 1.8T engines. Well, guess what. She called me like 20 minutes after we split and she got stranded by her Passat. The engine simply quit running in the middle of Chicago. My Neon came to the rescue. Tried jumping the battery but the Passat's engine cranked but at a "lazy" pace. Tow truck came and they also thought it's not the battery's fault. It was Saturday evening so her dealership's service dept closed when the tow truck got there. I would be very interested to know what's wrong with her car. Will report for sure when I hear more. Oh by the way she has around 20,000 miles on her Passat, which she bought around a yr ago used.
So do I regret buying the A4? Not a bit. It brought me joy and driving excitement (not the Pontiac version). Will I consider selling it before the warranty expires? More than ever. However, to give it a fair chance, I will keep my eyes open and see if there's anymore big ticket items coming up before the warranty expires. I'm in no mood shelling out a few grand for another head, let alone the labor that's associated. I'll definitely check the clauses in the extended warranties and see if they include replacing the engine head, just in case I keep it over the warranty period.
...and here I've been consistently extolling the virtues of the 1.8T engine. It hurts to hear stories like this but my own feelings about this engine remain unchanged ...I love everything about it. Still, the 1.8T engine has a relatively good reliability rating. It really bothers me to hear of such happenings to these engines at such an early age. Japanese engines rarely have catastrophic failures until they get very old or worn out --but I don't want to get into this discussion again.
... but after reading the posts above I am a little concerned. Fortunately my '99 Passat has 58K miles or 5+ years left on the power train warranty, which I assume would cover a head failure.
I have a 2002 Jetta now, with 25K highway miles. The car has been in the shop many, many times for rattles. Also had the climate control lights go out and the radio die. I haven't had really serious problems with the car, only annoying ones (rattles). The day before the warranty goes, the car will be sold.
Hello all, I have had my new 03A4 1.8TQ for two months now and LOVE it. I now have 5,000 miles on it. At 4500 miles, my OIL min light came on. I quickly pulled over at the nearest garage and added a quart. All is well for now, But that does not seem all too good. I am a little nervous about getting oil changes at every 10,000 miles as suggested by Audi and their scheduled maintenence plan. Any past experiences or insight would be helpful. Thanks Rob
I trust the service schedule. Also, if you keep all your reciepts and then you have problems, you have proof. I go every 5K with my Jetta 1.8T and use regular oil. No problems yet, in 26K.
Beware second-guessing the manual. I'd also recommend reading what many many A4 drivers on Audiworld.com have to say about these two issues. Over and over I've read it's common to need to add a little oil in the first 5,000 miles. Just top it off, or stop by the dealer and let them top it off. Second, recommendation for oil change has changed in the 2002 model. It is strongly recommended by most on Audiworld--except the most defiant and know it all types--to leave the oil from the factory alone for the first 10 K miles--some say 7-8K. Then if you're worried, change it more often.
By the way I've had my '02 1.8T Avant since the end of July and love it more every time I drive. It's beginning to feel like a favorite pair of shoes. And speaking of shoes, I'm researching winter tires before the snow falls. What's everyone wearing for winter? Hi, Bluetrane and Scirocco--I've been away!
to change the oil more often than the manual sez but to each his own. I just put on my Blizzak WS-50s (195-55Q-15)mounted on steel rims. They do the job.
The black steel rims look ugly but purposeful. I wouldn't put plastic wheel covers on cause I've yet to see ones that don't look ugly and I suspect they'd pop off easily.
I gotta get back to you regarding whether the head is part of the powertrain.....I don't see why not though.
Yeah I change my oil also every 5k instead of the suggested 10k miles. My dealership has this free oil drain-and-fill service. You gotta pay for the filter and of course the synthetic if you don't want their dino oil.
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The cylinder head is definitely part of the powertrain. Typically considered the engine and transmission after that it depends on your definition.
I heard that you should keep the factory oil in for the first 10k since it contained some unique additives. Not sure if that is true but that is what the dealership says. After that changing more often would be fine. I think changing at the recommended intervals is fine unless you drive under severe conditions. I use synthetic even in my 3.0L for a little piece of mind. I would always use synthetic in a turbo.
...you're back! I've been meaning to email you to see if you ever did get your new Avant --obviously you have! Congratulations! I'll send you a quick email when I get the chance. I'm curious about your experiences at RJM.
Thank you for those who posted regarding oil changes/scheduled maintenence. I was told to keep the factory Oil until 10K. Apparently the oil is 0W (weight) versus the 5w/30 that goes in after 10K. OK with me. After that I will chage the oil every 5K. Now the question of Synthetics? It seems to be highly recommended, especially with the Turbo engine. What is involved to convert over to synthetics? Thanks in advance
Many of us have expressed our sympathies to your situation a number of times. Most of us understand your bitterness and your anger.
And all of us have heard your message - many, many times.
We really are sorry for what has happened to you, but it's time to move on. Continuing repetitive messages serve no purpose other than to annoy the readers.
Thanks for understanding - and the best of luck to you.
Pat-- Thank you ...I was considering voicing the same sentiments but I didn't know if it would be appropriate or not and couldn't have said it so diplomatically anyway. At least he didn't "SHOUT" it this time.
Rob-- Unless something has changed, you'd still want to replace your factory oil with 0W-30 ...or at least that's what was recommended. If 0W-30 is unavailable it is perfectly acceptable to use 5W-30 but as far as I know, it's still recommended by Audi to use 0W-30. I'm not sure if the new '03s are recommending 0W-40 now or not but that is what many are moving to anyway. Most of us are using synthetic and as was said, it's highly recommended for turbos.
There was some question as to whether the cars come from the factory with synthetic. After I bought my car, I called a dozen dealers and asked if the factory fill was synthetic or not. More than half of them said it was and the others said no. I then called AoA and the particular operator I talked to said it was but others who have talked to Audi representatives at the same number said it was not. So who really knows for sure. All that we do know is that the vast majority of Audi owners use synthetic when doing oil changes.
There is nothing involved with converting over to synthetic. If you decide to keep the factory fill for 10k, all you have to do is to bring your own synthetic to the dealer and have them use it when getting your first service. If you change it yourself before that, just drain the oil as you normally would and then add the new synthetic ...of course, be sure to change the oil filter at this time also.
Has anyone used an oil analysis service? These labs will take a sample and analyze it for you, giving you a definitive answer on whether or not the oil can last 10K miles like Audi says.
I don't know how much it costs, how much oil you need to send them, etc. but I do know that there are plenty of these labs out there. Anyone use one of them?
As I have mentioned over the past many months (years?) all mechanical devices will at one time or multiple times, have problems. I have also stated until you are probably sick that Audis (and frankly most cars European, Japanese or American) are breathtakingly expensive to repair and maintain out of warranty. I know NO ONE who is wealthy enough to take such as risk -- and I know plenty of 6 figure income folks.
My point is this: my worst Audi was a 1978 5000 -- I will not belabor the point, it was junk, after about 20,000 miles it was in need of virtually every part you could imagine. Undaunted my second Audi was a 1979 Fox GTI -- which after 10,000 miles required that I answer the question "how many miles per gallon do you get?" with the follow on question "gallon of gas or gallon of oil."
I will not go through the other 25 Audi's my wife, my Company and I have owned or leased since then -- suffice it to say the Audis were then and continue to be -- the most car I have ever had for the money (in many different categories).
I agree with our host -- let's not make this the cheese board, as in "want some cheese with that whine?"
This is a place to celebrate and debate these machines not decry the risks that we took that didn't pan out.
These cars are breathtakingly expensive to maintain and repair out of warranty. Be guided accordingly unless you are Bill Gates.
Somebody on the Audiworld and MBworld did conduct an oil test. So far, the "magical" number in terms of miles seems to be 5000, if I remember correctly. Wish I had bookmarked those posts.
has mostly red dots for the '02 A4 but they still give a NEGATIVE recommendation for the car, citing reliability issues. Kind of inconsistent, ain't it?
My A4 has 43K miles and zero problems to date. All this talk about expensive repairs after the warranty expiration is beginning to bother me. Would an extended warranty be worthwhile? If so, any recommendations? BTW, the Dunlop A2 sports are working out great!
But thought I'd share with you the findings of my engine repair. I gotta give a thumbs-up to the Audi dealership that I brought my car in. Obviously I didn't have an appointment and they squeezed me in when I brought my car there late Thurs evening and I got a call today that the car is ready, instead of tomorrow! Great.
Now back to the topic. They replaced the engine head, head gaskets and all associated parts and screws. It's all covered under warranty. Apparently the lifters (or some metals) were hitting the engine head and caused the LOUD ticking noise. I was also mentioning there's a slight grinding noise during LIGHT throttle around 1-3k rpm for half a sec and will be gone.....well it turns out that's related to the head issues. Now this grinding noise is gone too. I'd say if you hear that slight grinding noise, better check it out.
About my coworker's 1.8T Passat, her dealership is yet to check out exactly what happened, but they are suspecting a timing belt snap. Need to check and see if that bent anything inside the engine.
Again, I don't mean to set up a bad mood here. I love my A4 and man, it feels SO MUCH better driving it than the Neon.
Billy-- Still, it bothers me to hear about both your car and your friend's. With less than 30k, such problems should not be expected. And timing belts shouldn't snap in an engine with that low of mileage. It's really frustrating to hear.
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Counterpoint:
I have to disagree with Mark when he implies that all cars are breathtakingly expensive to repair and maintain after warranty. If a Lexus, Infiniti, Accura, etc. do need major repairs after the warranty expires, granted, they will be expensive to repair. But how many do? Sure, there will be some. But speaking from personal experience and those of my close circle of friends, co-workers and relatives, Japanese cars, surprisingly, seldom need major repairs until many miles and years down the road. Again, sure, there are exceptions. The Toyotas, Hondas and Nissans I have owned have never needed major repairs of any kind ...but I've never kept any of them over 12 years or more than about 100k miles. Howver, I have many friends and relatives that have and again, they've never had any catastrophic mechanical failures. I know Mark has said before that he knows plenty of Japanese car owners who've had major troubles and I know from reading some of the boards here at Edmunds that there are those who have or are having headaches with Japanese cars but personally, I don't know of any in my circle. Just about every Japanese car owner I know are pleased with the aspect of the mechanical reliability of their cars.
I know I've told this story before about a friend of mine who kept a Datsun 200sx for over 250k without ever having a major mechanical problem. This in itself is quite a feat but when you consider she hardly ever changed oil nor had it serviced on a regular basis would make anybody aghast. Her next car was a Subaru Legacy which she put over 200k on but at least this time she changed oil occasionally and had it serviced every so often. The engine and drivetrain in that car never needed any major repairs. She claims that she was just lucky and just happened to get two great cars in a row. Maybe so but I've heard other stories where people really abuse their Japanese cars and they just keep on running.
Now I don't want to turn this into a discussion on Japanese reliability versus Audi realiability again so I'll just drop the subject. You all know how much I love my A4 and how I'm even considering buying another Audi (or VW) to keep it company in my garage but all this talk about how unreliable Audis are and how much they cost to repair and maintain is disconcerting to me. So best be it to just go and enjoy the driving experience and not concentrate on the negative aspects. Never follow ...and never be cheesy; let that be our motto.
Mark-- Quick question: probably should be asking this on the A6 board but how are you liking the shifter on your new allroad? Do you feel the need to install a short shifter kit? A friend of a friend has just recently leased a new allroad with a 6-speed and it was conveyed to me that the shifter not only has exceptionally long throws but feels sloppy. Do you concur or are you satisfied?
Anecdotal evidence is just that -- anecdotal. Generally, my personal opinion -- without much substantiation other than anecdotes is that virtually everyone complains about the expenses associate with "fixing" their cars -- no matter what the brand. This is human nature.
Also, my personal experience and "belief" is that European cars need (or at least seem to need) more expensive repairs [more often] than Japanese cars. So 'rocco, I fundamentally agree with your observations and conclusions -- fundamentally but not entirely. One of my co-workers has a 1997 Acura -- it has repair needs and they are "breathtakingly" expensive, the body rusted "way way" early according to him and he has had body repairs for this several times.
This anecdote, obviously, does not mean that all Acuras rust out prematurely or that all 5 year old Acuras will have expensive repairs. My friend is in my circle of conversation. Another co worker has one of those "legendary" Toyotas that take a lickin but keep on tickin. And his car is a 2000 -- but the car's check engine light is always on, he claims the wheel bearings are shot and the brake discs shudder every bit as much as my A6's that I wrote so often about.
Still, like you, my intuition tells me Japanese cars don't need as much TLC and that they cost less overall to maintain -- even though my anecdotal experience would suggest they are no better than their European counterparts.
So, without predjudice, I will state that automobiles conceived and manufactured in the US, Europe and Japan (and probably Korea) will break, some more than others; and, when they do, they all can be very expensive (breathtakingly so). Moreover, I will suggest that prudence dictates that a car is somewhat of a safe bet to "overinsure" with respect to warranties (either factory original or extended).
Even if Japanese cars, based on anecdotes, were "perfect" in the reliability department, my personal enjoyment of my European cars (Audis for the most part) eclipses my concerns (and anecdotes supporting my concerns) in this regard. Audis are a BLAST to drive. I have nothing against a Lexus, for example. It is just not for me. To each his own.
So, again, 'rocco I think we are if not quite in violent agreement, in at least substantial agreement on this issue.
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My allroad has 500 miles on it. I love it, so far. The shifting seems a bit "notchy" -- I can't yet comment on the long throws and sloppy would not have been an adjective I would have applied.
The notchyness will -- so say some on the audiworld forum -- decrease over time. My wife's new TT also with 500 miles on it, "seems" to have shorter throws, but it too is somewhat notchy. On the other hand, the allroad shift between 5th and 6th is super smooth and is still notchy on the TT.
So, the current answer is, ummm, hmmm, well -- maybe a short shifter kit will come in handy, but at this point I would not say that the shifting is sloppy and I hope (believe) it will get smoother over the next month or so.
I'll keep y'all posted.
Thus far the thing seems pretty flawless, the only problem I have had was the On*star module needed to be replaced since it's GPS function was "not functioning."
My first car was a Civic hatchback. It had all sorts of little problems and broken items, but the one thing that was constant was that it always got me where I needed to go. Despite the doors that didn't lock, the paint job that became three shades of blue, the rust, etc. the engine never quit (though I did have to have the heater on full blast anytime I wanted to drive over 50 mph - imagine driving in the summer!). Reliable? Absolutely. Trouble-free? Yeah right.
My roommate just traded his Civic in for a CL-S. In the 3 months prior to trading in, he spent $1500 on routine maintenance, plus replacing brake bulbs that never quit burning out. Reliable? Absolutely. Cheap to maintain? Yeah right.
My mom drives a Camry (late 90's version). She had a ticking sound coming from the engine bay and took it in to get fixed. It cost over $500. Last year, when her car was parked in the street, a kid backed into it, hitting the fender. It was fixed by insurance (to the tune of well over $2000). She also is forced to change her oil every 3000 miles now to avoid any sludging issues. Maintenance and repairs have already eclipsed the amount spent on her previous car - an Oldsmobile station wagon that she kept for 10 years. Reliable? Absolutely. Cheap to fix and maintain? Yeah right.
Even if you buy a reliable Japanese car, don't think you won't have issues or huge bills later in the cars life. You will, just as you will with an Audi.
PS - my girlfriend's 2002 Accord with 8000 miles on it has its service required light on. I'm feeling a little smug just waiting to see what the dealer says was wrong.
"kept a Datsun 200sx for over 250k without ever having a major mechanical problem"
Interesting.
And yet, to me, driving a 200sx for 250K miles (almost 14 years [!!} as I typically drive an average of 18,000 miles / yr.) would be MUCH worse than dealing with (my perception of) the current Audi reliability. And the same goes for my Mom's year old Accord. A very nice car in many ways - and perfect for her - but it would be a 'penalty box' for me.
To each their own . . .
Cheers, - Ray Who can't stop thinking about 14 years of driving the same (most any) car . . .
The 2.7T 6spd @ highway speeds is at least 500 RPM's higher than my 4.2 w/tip at highway speeds. The 2.7T needs to be at a minimum of 2000 rpms to "feel right", the 4.2 could be at 1200 and feel just fine. There are substantive differences to be sure between the 2.7T and the 4.2 -- but in terms of raw performance, they are comparable in many ways.
The 4.2 sounds great -- the 2.7T doesn't make much sound at all (in the allroad -- but I presume that is because the allroad overall is so very very quiet, perhaps because its floorpan is 20% thicker and it just feels and sounds "quieter." The 4.2 A6 is/was sportier, but the manual shift in the allroad offsets that somewhat.
They are siblings, not identical or even fraternal twins -- they are close in feel, generally, but there are subtle differences that I am just becoming aware of.
The suspension seems simultaneously stiff and compliant -- less stiff than the A6 w/sport suspension and more compliant (some might say comfortable). I keep the allroad on its lowest suspension setting, but it still sits a tad higher than the 4.2.
The 4.2 255 x 40 x 17 summer tires, the allroad 245 x 50 x 17 all season tires -- the allroad's tires are quieter, but the A6 seems to have more grip (which it should). It is still warm enough here in Cincinnati that I don't think temp would be an issue yet between them.
The A6 had less body roll, but the allroad is hardly a pig in this regard.
Above 3500 RPM the 4.2 had greater "pull" the 2.7T pulls great between 2 and 4,000 and then it doesn't have as much urge as the 4.2.
The torque comes on faster on the 2.7T, but there is, ultimately less of it. Yet, it is no wonder that the 2.7T A6 w/6pd is quicker than the 4.2 A6 w/tip -- the 4.2 has "turbo" lag (called tip lag over on audiworld), the 2.7T 6spd (not modded) does not appear to have the same lag unless you try something dumb like 1500RPM in third gear and floor it (then it just sort of hurries up a little bit, like going from a stroll to a power walk, but not a sprint). However, if you are in second or third gear at 2000+RPM's it almost leaps forward like a cat who gets it butt poked with a sharp stick -- yeowww zoooooom, that kind of thing. Sixth gear can be used at speeds less than 55, no problem -- but it doesn't "feel right" -- 5th gear at 55 provides plenty of urge without downshifting.
Hey, its only got 500 miles on it -- I'm sure these early impressions will morph with the miles.
I just picked up my '00 A6 2.7T w/tip from the Audi Dealer for the 40,000 mile routine oilchange.
The service advisor told me that the average non-warranty repair on an Audi is $500.00. He rarely sees Audi repairs for under $300.00.
Mark- it sounds like the 6-speed (Allroad) does make up some "slack" in performance over the "tip". Or atleast enough to keep you interested in the car!
Well I guess my last car, a 96 Honda Accord LX, was so reliable and faithful to me, it's just a steep contrast between the A4 and the Accord. I put 116k miles in it and the only things went wrong were a failed driver's door window motor and a overreactive power locking system. Both fixes were around $600 labor and parts, which were covered under an extended warranty from Honda I bought for $1000. Am I mad at HOnda for "scamming" me for $400? Not at all. Nothing whatsoever, not even a weird sound came from the engine compartment.
WHich car do I love more? Definitely the A4. Which car do I think it's more trouble free? Definitely the Accord. Which car would I recommend people to buy now? It depends if that person is willing to trade driving excitment with some unreliability.
Are these at opposite ends of the continuum? To me notchy could mean well defined gates or strong feedback. Sloppy means I'm not sure whether I'm in 2nd or 4th gear on a 5 speed transmission. I may be insenstive to notchy because as a kid I drove a 1932 Chevy one-ton truck with no synchro. Everything since has been like a warm knife cutting through butter. I hasten to add that the truck was quite old when I drove it.
Comments
Chances are you'll never recover what you paid out.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
An extended warranty is the same thing. If you might not be able to afford the potential repairs, get the warranty. If you take 100 people with extended warranties, the majority will not get their money's worth - that's the nature of the business. You just don't want to be the poor shmuck that would get his money's worth. This applies double when the car is expensive to repair, like an Audi.
I didn't mean to imply that a used Audi was a bad thing.
Other than the legendary $1,500 "pickemup truck" that you and four of your neighbors chip in $300 apiece on to buy as the shared truck-resource of the block, I cannot really think of any car from any country that I would want as my "daily driver" that I would risk acquiring "out of warranty."
All cars are soooo expensive to repair anymore, the risk seems too high.
Audis are full of techno-wizardry. The A4 has quattro, ESP, electronic throttle, extensive computer management, a turbo in some models, etc. All of these things can break. In comparison, the 1980 Dodge Omni I drove in high school had maybe 5 moving parts in total, 2 of which never worked when I owned it. Much less complex, and much less to break (and it still left me stranded twice that I can remember).
In my car, it started to develop a LOUD ticking sound in the engine compartment. At first I thought maybe the drivetrain hit something loose. I based that on the fact that it the ticking sound only comes when the engine is below 1100rpm and goes away after that. But when it's below 1100rpm, it's LOUD. To give you a comparison, it's as loud as a Ford F350 diesel pickup, except it's a ticking sound. The sound can be heard at both in gear and in neutral. However there's no observed loss of power. Drove the car to the nearest dealership and the service advisors took a look. They called me back the next day and said they determined it's the ENTIRE engine head that's at fault. Talking about some metal (maybe the lifters) hitting the head and the engine needs a new head. Translation: the complete top part and 1/4 down the top part of the engine will be replaced! And they STRONGLY advised me not to drive it although they were surprised that the Check Engine Light didn't come on. THANK GOD it's under warranty. The service advisor said it will cost a few grand, courtesy of Audi. I'll be out of town the next 2 days and they promise when I'm back by Wednesday, I should be able to pick my baby up. Gotta give them some credit for squeezing the big fix in their schedule. Let's hope the engine head is really the cause.
So I'm stuck with a rental Neon. So after having lunch with some friends who one of them has a 2000 Passat 1.8T, I got teased that the VW 1.8T engines are better than the Audi 1.8T engines. Well, guess what. She called me like 20 minutes after we split and she got stranded by her Passat. The engine simply quit running in the middle of Chicago. My Neon came to the rescue. Tried jumping the battery but the Passat's engine cranked but at a "lazy" pace. Tow truck came and they also thought it's not the battery's fault. It was Saturday evening so her dealership's service dept closed when the tow truck got there. I would be very interested to know what's wrong with her car. Will report for sure when I hear more. Oh by the way she has around 20,000 miles on her Passat, which she bought around a yr ago used.
So do I regret buying the A4? Not a bit. It brought me joy and driving excitement (not the Pontiac version). Will I consider selling it before the warranty expires? More than ever. However, to give it a fair chance, I will keep my eyes open and see if there's anymore big ticket items coming up before the warranty expires. I'm in no mood shelling out a few grand for another head, let alone the labor that's associated. I'll definitely check the clauses in the extended warranties and see if they include replacing the engine head, just in case I keep it over the warranty period.
Wish me luck, guys.
Billy
Good luck on the repairs to both your cars.
--'rocco
Billy
Rob
When I had the free service I paid $$ for every other oil change and I recommend you do the same. It seems like cheap insurance to me.
Just under 90K on my 2.8, it's goin strong, uses v little oil.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
By the way I've had my '02 1.8T Avant since the end of July and love it more every time I drive. It's beginning to feel like a favorite pair of shoes. And speaking of shoes, I'm researching winter tires before the snow falls. What's everyone wearing for winter? Hi, Bluetrane and Scirocco--I've been away!
but to each his own. I just put on my Blizzak WS-50s (195-55Q-15)mounted on steel rims. They do the job.
The black steel rims look ugly but purposeful. I wouldn't put plastic wheel covers on cause I've yet to see ones that don't look ugly and I suspect they'd pop off easily.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Yeah I change my oil also every 5k instead of the suggested 10k miles. My dealership has this free oil drain-and-fill service. You gotta pay for the filter and of course the synthetic if you don't want their dino oil.
Billy
Thanks!
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I heard that you should keep the factory oil in for the first 10k since it contained some unique additives. Not sure if that is true but that is what the dealership says. After that changing more often would be fine. I think changing at the recommended intervals is fine unless you drive under severe conditions. I use synthetic even in my 3.0L for a little piece of mind. I would always use synthetic in a turbo.
--'rocco
I was told to keep the factory Oil until 10K. Apparently the oil is 0W (weight) versus the 5w/30 that goes in after 10K. OK with me.
After that I will chage the oil every 5K.
Now the question of Synthetics?
It seems to be highly recommended, especially with the Turbo engine. What is involved to convert over to synthetics?
Thanks in advance
And all of us have heard your message - many, many times.
We really are sorry for what has happened to you, but it's time to move on. Continuing repetitive messages serve no purpose other than to annoy the readers.
Thanks for understanding - and the best of luck to you.
Pat, Host
Rob-- Unless something has changed, you'd still want to replace your factory oil with 0W-30 ...or at least that's what was recommended. If 0W-30 is unavailable it is perfectly acceptable to use 5W-30 but as far as I know, it's still recommended by Audi to use 0W-30. I'm not sure if the new '03s are recommending 0W-40 now or not but that is what many are moving to anyway. Most of us are using synthetic and as was said, it's highly recommended for turbos.
There was some question as to whether the cars come from the factory with synthetic. After I bought my car, I called a dozen dealers and asked if the factory fill was synthetic or not. More than half of them said it was and the others said no. I then called AoA and the particular operator I talked to said it was but others who have talked to Audi representatives at the same number said it was not. So who really knows for sure. All that we do know is that the vast majority of Audi owners use synthetic when doing oil changes.
There is nothing involved with converting over to synthetic. If you decide to keep the factory fill for 10k, all you have to do is to bring your own synthetic to the dealer and have them use it when getting your first service. If you change it yourself before that, just drain the oil as you normally would and then add the new synthetic ...of course, be sure to change the oil filter at this time also.
Good luck and congratulations!
--'rocco
I don't know how much it costs, how much oil you need to send them, etc. but I do know that there are plenty of these labs out there. Anyone use one of them?
My point is this: my worst Audi was a 1978 5000 -- I will not belabor the point, it was junk, after about 20,000 miles it was in need of virtually every part you could imagine. Undaunted my second Audi was a 1979 Fox GTI -- which after 10,000 miles required that I answer the question "how many miles per gallon do you get?" with the follow on question "gallon of gas or gallon of oil."
I will not go through the other 25 Audi's my wife, my Company and I have owned or leased since then -- suffice it to say the Audis were then and continue to be -- the most car I have ever had for the money (in many different categories).
I agree with our host -- let's not make this the cheese board, as in "want some cheese with that whine?"
This is a place to celebrate and debate these machines not decry the risks that we took that didn't pan out.
These cars are breathtakingly expensive to maintain and repair out of warranty. Be guided accordingly unless you are Bill Gates.
BTW, the Dunlop A2 sports are working out great!
Now back to the topic. They replaced the engine head, head gaskets and all associated parts and screws. It's all covered under warranty. Apparently the lifters (or some metals) were hitting the engine head and caused the LOUD ticking noise. I was also mentioning there's a slight grinding noise during LIGHT throttle around 1-3k rpm for half a sec and will be gone.....well it turns out that's related to the head issues. Now this grinding noise is gone too. I'd say if you hear that slight grinding noise, better check it out.
About my coworker's 1.8T Passat, her dealership is yet to check out exactly what happened, but they are suspecting a timing belt snap. Need to check and see if that bent anything inside the engine.
Again, I don't mean to set up a bad mood here. I love my A4 and man, it feels SO MUCH better driving it than the Neon.
Billy
_______________________________________________
Counterpoint:
I have to disagree with Mark when he implies that all cars are breathtakingly expensive to repair and maintain after warranty. If a Lexus, Infiniti, Accura, etc. do need major repairs after the warranty expires, granted, they will be expensive to repair. But how many do? Sure, there will be some. But speaking from personal experience and those of my close circle of friends, co-workers and relatives, Japanese cars, surprisingly, seldom need major repairs until many miles and years down the road. Again, sure, there are exceptions. The Toyotas, Hondas and Nissans I have owned have never needed major repairs of any kind ...but I've never kept any of them over 12 years or more than about 100k miles. Howver, I have many friends and relatives that have and again, they've never had any catastrophic mechanical failures. I know Mark has said before that he knows plenty of Japanese car owners who've had major troubles and I know from reading some of the boards here at Edmunds that there are those who have or are having headaches with Japanese cars but personally, I don't know of any in my circle. Just about every Japanese car owner I know are pleased with the aspect of the mechanical reliability of their cars.
I know I've told this story before about a friend of mine who kept a Datsun 200sx for over 250k without ever having a major mechanical problem. This in itself is quite a feat but when you consider she hardly ever changed oil nor had it serviced on a regular basis would make anybody aghast. Her next car was a Subaru Legacy which she put over 200k on but at least this time she changed oil occasionally and had it serviced every so often. The engine and drivetrain in that car never needed any major repairs. She claims that she was just lucky and just happened to get two great cars in a row. Maybe so but I've heard other stories where people really abuse their Japanese cars and they just keep on running.
Now I don't want to turn this into a discussion on Japanese reliability versus Audi realiability again so I'll just drop the subject. You all know how much I love my A4 and how I'm even considering buying another Audi (or VW) to keep it company in my garage but all this talk about how unreliable Audis are and how much they cost to repair and maintain is disconcerting to me. So best be it to just go and enjoy the driving experience and not concentrate on the negative aspects. Never follow ...and never be cheesy; let that be our motto.
--'rocco
--'rocco
Also, my personal experience and "belief" is that European cars need (or at least seem to need) more expensive repairs [more often] than Japanese cars. So 'rocco, I fundamentally agree with your observations and conclusions -- fundamentally but not entirely. One of my co-workers has a 1997 Acura -- it has repair needs and they are "breathtakingly" expensive, the body rusted "way way" early according to him and he has had body repairs for this several times.
This anecdote, obviously, does not mean that all Acuras rust out prematurely or that all 5 year old Acuras will have expensive repairs. My friend is in my circle of conversation. Another co worker has one of those "legendary" Toyotas that take a lickin but keep on tickin. And his car is a 2000 -- but the car's check engine light is always on, he claims the wheel bearings are shot and the brake discs shudder every bit as much as my A6's that I wrote so often about.
Still, like you, my intuition tells me Japanese cars don't need as much TLC and that they cost less overall to maintain -- even though my anecdotal experience would suggest they are no better than their European counterparts.
So, without predjudice, I will state that automobiles conceived and manufactured in the US, Europe and Japan (and probably Korea) will break, some more than others; and, when they do, they all can be very expensive (breathtakingly so). Moreover, I will suggest that prudence dictates that a car is somewhat of a safe bet to "overinsure" with respect to warranties (either factory original or extended).
Even if Japanese cars, based on anecdotes, were "perfect" in the reliability department, my personal enjoyment of my European cars (Audis for the most part) eclipses my concerns (and anecdotes supporting my concerns) in this regard. Audis are a BLAST to drive. I have nothing against a Lexus, for example. It is just not for me. To each his own.
So, again, 'rocco I think we are if not quite in violent agreement, in at least substantial agreement on this issue.
========
My allroad has 500 miles on it. I love it, so far. The shifting seems a bit "notchy" -- I can't yet comment on the long throws and sloppy would not have been an adjective I would have applied.
The notchyness will -- so say some on the audiworld forum -- decrease over time. My wife's new TT also with 500 miles on it, "seems" to have shorter throws, but it too is somewhat notchy. On the other hand, the allroad shift between 5th and 6th is super smooth and is still notchy on the TT.
So, the current answer is, ummm, hmmm, well -- maybe a short shifter kit will come in handy, but at this point I would not say that the shifting is sloppy and I hope (believe) it will get smoother over the next month or so.
I'll keep y'all posted.
Thus far the thing seems pretty flawless, the only problem I have had was the On*star module needed to be replaced since it's GPS function was "not functioning."
Just curious what RPM's your Allroad is running in 6th at 65~70 mph?
My roommate just traded his Civic in for a CL-S. In the 3 months prior to trading in, he spent $1500 on routine maintenance, plus replacing brake bulbs that never quit burning out.
Reliable? Absolutely. Cheap to maintain? Yeah right.
My mom drives a Camry (late 90's version). She had a ticking sound coming from the engine bay and took it in to get fixed. It cost over $500. Last year, when her car was parked in the street, a kid backed into it, hitting the fender. It was fixed by insurance (to the tune of well over $2000). She also is forced to change her oil every 3000 miles now to avoid any sludging issues. Maintenance and repairs have already eclipsed the amount spent on her previous car - an Oldsmobile station wagon that she kept for 10 years.
Reliable? Absolutely. Cheap to fix and maintain? Yeah right.
Even if you buy a reliable Japanese car, don't think you won't have issues or huge bills later in the cars life. You will, just as you will with an Audi.
PS - my girlfriend's 2002 Accord with 8000 miles on it has its service required light on. I'm feeling a little smug just waiting to see what the dealer says was wrong.
Interesting.
And yet, to me, driving a 200sx for 250K miles (almost 14 years [!!} as I typically drive an average of 18,000 miles / yr.) would be MUCH worse than dealing with (my perception of) the current Audi reliability. And the same goes for my Mom's year old Accord. A very nice car in many ways - and perfect for her - but it would be a 'penalty box' for me.
To each their own . . .
Cheers,
- Ray
Who can't stop thinking about 14 years of driving the same (most any) car . . .
The 4.2 sounds great -- the 2.7T doesn't make much sound at all (in the allroad -- but I presume that is because the allroad overall is so very very quiet, perhaps because its floorpan is 20% thicker and it just feels and sounds "quieter." The 4.2 A6 is/was sportier, but the manual shift in the allroad offsets that somewhat.
They are siblings, not identical or even fraternal twins -- they are close in feel, generally, but there are subtle differences that I am just becoming aware of.
The suspension seems simultaneously stiff and compliant -- less stiff than the A6 w/sport suspension and more compliant (some might say comfortable). I keep the allroad on its lowest suspension setting, but it still sits a tad higher than the 4.2.
The 4.2 255 x 40 x 17 summer tires, the allroad 245 x 50 x 17 all season tires -- the allroad's tires are quieter, but the A6 seems to have more grip (which it should). It is still warm enough here in Cincinnati that I don't think temp would be an issue yet between them.
The A6 had less body roll, but the allroad is hardly a pig in this regard.
Above 3500 RPM the 4.2 had greater "pull" the 2.7T pulls great between 2 and 4,000 and then it doesn't have as much urge as the 4.2.
The torque comes on faster on the 2.7T, but there is, ultimately less of it. Yet, it is no wonder that the 2.7T A6 w/6pd is quicker than the 4.2 A6 w/tip -- the 4.2 has "turbo" lag (called tip lag over on audiworld), the 2.7T 6spd (not modded) does not appear to have the same lag unless you try something dumb like 1500RPM in third gear and floor it (then it just sort of hurries up a little bit, like going from a stroll to a power walk, but not a sprint). However, if you are in second or third gear at 2000+RPM's it almost leaps forward like a cat who gets it butt poked with a sharp stick -- yeowww zoooooom, that kind of thing. Sixth gear can be used at speeds less than 55, no problem -- but it doesn't "feel right" -- 5th gear at 55 provides plenty of urge without downshifting.
Hey, its only got 500 miles on it -- I'm sure these early impressions will morph with the miles.
End of intermediate report.
The service advisor told me that the average non-warranty repair on an Audi is $500.00. He rarely sees Audi repairs for under $300.00.
Mark- it sounds like the 6-speed (Allroad) does make up some "slack" in performance over the "tip". Or atleast enough to keep you interested in the car!
WHich car do I love more? Definitely the A4. Which car do I think it's more trouble free? Definitely the Accord. Which car would I recommend people to buy now? It depends if that person is willing to trade driving excitment with some unreliability.
Billy