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Comments
My motivation for the CVT was that it has the approximately the performance of a manual and I thought the 3.0 at 220 hp performance might be close to the 2.7T for less money. The 2.8 at 200hp when I got the 2.7 was too slow for me. I am reluctant to give up Quattro because the handling/traction/ride combination is terrific. I was thinking about the 540i and the upcoming Infiniti M45. Sounds like CVT and Quattro wont happen until at least 2004 models.
I don't think it's strange if the Tip is upshifting @ 1500, under light constant throttle. All cars are an attempt to balance performance with mileage for many reasons such as CAFE, etc. Upshifting into a higher gear helps reduce fuel consumption. If you dip into the throttle a little more, or drive in a more spirited fashion, the tranny should respond by holding gears longer. If it doesn't, then I'd have questions
I've not treated myself to a drive in a 540. By all accounts, it's a wonderful car to drive with great performance, handling and comfort. But of course, it's RWD, which has both inherent advantages and disadvantages to AWD. I think I prefer the handling of AWD to RWD, but the most significant difference is that if you live anywhere there's winter, you'll probably want to run dedicated winter tires on the 540. Even then, its traction won't compare to a similarly equipped quattro.
I also understand that the out-the-door prices on the 540 are around $10K more than the 2.7T. So if you're looking to pay less, it wouldn't seem to be in the running.
The M45 is also RWD, so the same considerations apply. For me, what disqualifies it from consideration is its looks. How Infiniti arrived at the conclusion that mid '70's GM retro was the way to go is astounding to me. In the pictures I've seen it is the least attractive looking auto from just about anyone in the last 20 years, excepting the new Cadillacs. The CTS is the most aggressively ugly car I've seen on the road, whereas the M45 just kind of frumps along.
Now, the 2.7T is also a contender but doesn't have quite the looks or the extra luxo touches that the 4.2 has. But the 2.7T can be maxed out and leave you with plenty of money left over especially when compared with a 540. And with the 2.7T with the 6spd manual, you will have an even quicker car.
Apples to apples, I guess the 540 should be compared with the 4.2. Money wise though the BMW 530 when fully maxed out is pretty close to an Audi 4.2. The 540 compares with the 4.2 in my mind more because they are both 8 cylinder cars -- not because of price class.
If you are indeed looking at the price classes your message suggests -- and if you are planning to lease a car -- you might even find yourself able to be "not that far off" on a monthly payment basis if you look at a 2002 S8!
Choices, choices, choices. . . .
Several of us are waiting anxiously to hear the outcome, for a variety of reasons.
Hang in there.
http://www.audiworld.com/forum/index.html
Two people who are especially knowledgeable there are April/verdegrll and Richard Solomon. April loves cars and knows cars, has raced them, fixed them and used to sell Audi's. Richard has just generally known more about Audi's than anyone else whose posts I've read. Richard hasn't posted in awhile, but still might be reading the board. I address your concerns there in general, and specifically ask if either of these two folks could offer any advice.
Jerry
Notwithstanding these problems, the 2.7T is a great driver. As I have told many people, I still think the 5 series has a better combo of ride and handling, but it's marginal. I think the benefits of the quattro system, good looks of the car (especially with the sport package) and superior interior appointments won me over. The fact that the 2.7T is a much better value adds even more appeal. I was able to get a lease on a fully equipped 2.7T for significantly less than a 530i, not to even mention the 540i.
I will say that I wish I had more seriously considered the 4.2, since so many of you are such big fans of it. However, think I'll wait for an RS6 next....
I have had three Audi's with the 4.2 V8 engine -- my next car coundown 15 weeks -- will be a 2003 6spd manual allroad 2.7T -- I have no reason to believe I will be disappointed.
The RS6 even to me seems like overkill here in southern Ohio with our congested freeway system. But I would love to have one.
You mentioned the "luxo touches" the 4.2 has over the 2.7T. Could you write about some of these? Basically I assumed they were the same car- only the 4.2 has the bigger engine, tires,flared fenders,etc. The list price differential between the 2.7 AND 4.2 must mean some significant upgrades for the 4.2?
Thanks for listing the website. It was informative and answered most of my questions.
It appears that the 2.7T has most everything the 4.2 has (or could have) excepting the engine and the electric tilt steering.
I guess I will just have to go test drive one to experience the subtle (and probably important) other differences!
Thanks again-Max.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Only complaint: Brakes (well documented on this forum - which I've been following for over a year without posting) which were swapped out free of charge and have now been flawless.
Unless the car lets me down going forward, I will set my sights on another one when my lease is up.
Much to my pleasant surprise, this wonderful dealer Northland Porsche & Audi, put four new rotors on the car. I have since driven the car to Pittsburgh twice (from Cincinnati) about a 500 mile round trip and also to the Kentucky Tennesee border (about a 500 mile round trip). The brakes have never been this good, even the slight sponginess that has been the hallmark of the feel of the pedal is gone.
Those of you who are counting, know that I have had 2 A6 4.2's and including the set that the cars came with, I think I am up to at least 8 or 9 sets of rotors on these two vehicles.
I say this almost in disbelief -- but it is true.
Some who read this board think I am nuts to be so loyal to Audi with the experience I have had with these two Audis. Indeed, I counter that while I would have rather not had the brakes replaced so many time, it is the behavior and treatment by my dealer and AoA that has actually increased my loyalty and "affection" for the brand. Mechanical stuff has problems -- hopefully the design, engineering or, most likely, the supplier of the parts has been sacked and new, better one put in its stead.
My 2003 allroad is being built in week 39 and I suspect that means I will have my current A6 only another 4 months -- but again at 30+K miles, this Audi just keeps getting better.
In spite of the brake issues, I will miss this car -- it is fantastic to drive. And now the brakes are silent and vibration free.
Life is good.
OK.
Intermittently stays in first gear to redline - will not shift up while in D.
Air conditioning will not stay in manual setting for inside recirculating air - goes to auto setting which lets in outside air - not good in rush hour traffic.
Car delivered with out of balance tire(s).
Fortunately my wife took another job and the company car is gone.
Bye, not buy - Audi.
My wife's A6 3.0 (2002) sounds like a whining supercharger between 1,500-2,000 rpm, when the a/c is on. It is clearly a/c related. the dealer has heard the noise and agrees it is a defect. The service manager called "Audi" and was told it was "normal" during warm weather. Both the dealer and I think this is hogwash. First, the noise is objectionable and loud; second, other 2002's I have driven do not have this problem. Occasionally, I have seen Audi engage in these tactics: i.e. not acknowledging a difficulty, that is not safety related. Most of my service concerns, in the past, have been fairly dealt with. I will insist that they remedy this problem.
Has anyone else experienced this audible difficulty?
I think we all better start buying our Audis from Northland, the service they have given you is simply amazing!
Audi has probably spent more warranty dollars replacing your 4.2 brakes than any other 4.2 in the country!
I'm sure your new Allroad is being built with the utmost of care, AoA does not want markcincinnati bringing that car back for brake problems, (or any problems), for that matter!
A different noise popped last winter: I've got crickets living behind the right side of my dash! Specifically, a fan or impeller that is evidently associated with only the heating phase of the climate control system is a bit loose, and occasionally makes a noise very reminiscent of crickets. So far, I've found it somewhat charming, since I share your concerns exactly about having my very nicely fitted dash torn apart.
I ask about the brake issues and while I have been persistent in seeking remedy, I am far from the only one with the issue. Check audiworld, search on A6 brake issues or other search words, like rotors, warp, etc etc. The number of problems with these brakes has been, if I hadn't seen them so often, almost unbelievable.
The 2000 A6 4.2 I leased was the first 4.2 in Cincinnati in 1999 when mine came in (a preorder of about 12 months). The brakes -- with the owner of the dealership in the car with me during the test drive (before I signed the papers) -- were warped from the moment I first got behind the wheel of the car. I still loved the car. I thought my problems were probably a one off, and was really surprised when my 2001 A6 came in and developed the same problems within 8000 miles.
We have had Audi 5000's, an Audi Silver Fox, a Fox GTI, a 5000CS quattro, 2 Audi coupes, 1 coupe quattro, 2 100 S, 1 100 quattros, an S6, several 80's, 90's, 2 A4's 3 A6's 1 A8 and two TT's -- not to mention 1 Jetta and 1 Quantum and 1 Passat (all since 1978, when I got into my first Audi a 1976 silver/blue Fox and immediately went to the dealership and picked up a new 1978 5000). All of the cars have had at least some minor acute problem -- emphasize the word minor.
The A6 4.2's I had/have had very few acute (i.e., normal) issues and one chronic problem -- the rotors. While I have never liked the shuddering brakes, I generally have always characterized the problem as annoying, not really "concerning" (in terms of stopping efficiency). But, I do think that the only way a company will know about the issues is for the owners to let them know -- which I have done. Apparently many -- at least going by what I read over on audiworld -- have had the same brake problems. I have now put another couple thousand miles on the car (I am at 33K) and no hint of the problem returning.
Audi obviously knows about the problems and perhaps they have changed vendors. Hopefully the 2003 allroad I ordered will have the new discs or altogether new brakes -- as I have seen posters on the allroad forum on audiworld describe to a T the same issues I have had.
In any case, I still am happy with the brand and the dealership. And so is my wife. We will both be getting new 03 Audi's in less than 4 months.
Like I said, while we have high expectations of both Audi and the dealer, we are GOOD customers.
And, I agree, the 2.7T with the 6spd and sport pkg is a very fine choice indeed -- perhaps the "bargain" of the line, too.
The A6 4.2's -- especially now -- are my favorite Audi's so far, even more to my liking than the wonderful A8.
Again, life is good.
I don't have any problem being really fanatical about the Audi. For example, when I bought the 2.7T, I noticed (in the sun) "swirl" marks in the black paint. I promptly returned to the dealer and the service manager and myself checked out every black Audi in the lot to notice the factory "swirl" in the paint- sure enough- every other car had this too. The service guy explained it is just part of the Audi process of painting at the German factory.
For what it cost (per mile) to drive the average new Audi, the customer has the right to be "fussy" up to a certain reasonable point!
BTW, are you one of the "lucky" 860 RS-6 buyers in the US next year? How about 415 lb.-ft. of torque/0-60 4.6 sec, but no 6-speed tip!Audi also claims no 6-speed tranny can handle this torque. I read they are using the transmission from the A-8 W-12 platform not sold in the U.S.
My next Audi purchase should incorporate the 6-speed tip that you have mentioned on this forum before.
And, I do want and will demand a manual transmission -- for several reasons, the allroad 2.7T with the 6spd looks sortof like the Swiss Army Knife's of cars -- and with a set of bigger wheels and tires and mild "turbo chip" (and uprated bypass valves) under the hood and a new exhaust system -- the 2.7T will easily put out over 300HP and well over 300 lb ft of torque (which by all accounts the transmission can handle) and should be an absolute hoot to drive.
And, I won't see myself coming and going even moreso than with the A6's.
My wife's getting another 225HP TT and she says it doesn't need chipping.
For us at this time, this is our austerity program as we continue (hopefully) to come out of the recession.
Perhaps an S4 though. . . .
On the other hand, the new Ziff(?) 6spd tiptronic -- coming in a couple of years to the entire lineup (is my guess) may make the manual obsolete -- for the right reasons.
I asked the dealer, why no manuals (or darn few) -- he says the manuals sit and sit and sit until they are discounted. Of course the manual A6's and allroads that are "on the lot" don't have many options and even the low price doesn't motivate me to lease one.
I wonder why the manual is less desirable. . . I have had many manual transmission cars and I generally let my friends and neighbors drive my cars -- they love the manual transmission. But when they go to the dealer the only manuals on the lot are the "strippies" -- they have minimal options, that is -- so a fully optioned tip A6 2.7T will sell while a minimally optioned A6 2.7T manual will sit. I wonder if fully optioned manual transmission versions were "on the lot" if they wouldn't sell?
Even the S6 is automatic -- as is the S8. For some reason, the 8's seem to carry off the automatic transmissions well -- in hindsight I didn't miss the manual in my A8. But today, I miss a manual transmission in my A6 4.2.
Rumor mill: new S4, will have 4.2 V8 tuned to intermediate level (340HP) and manual transmission.
As technology and amorphous styling continue to blur the distinction between ALL marques, I think that consumer perception and image will play an increased role. That is why BMW will probably always carry manual models; Audi seems to be moving in that direction since, as mentioned, they are positioning themselves as the "other" German BMW.
1. the TT will have an automatic in it in the 2003 model year, I heard if you got the 180HP model that it will "soon" only come in auto
2. the base A6 has lost the manual, the 4.2 never had it, ditto S6, and most of the 2.7T's by far have been autos (ditto the allroad)
3. on the dealer's lot, about 2/3 of the A4's are auto
4. the CVT will soon be ready for quattro
5. the 6spd tip, which I am led to believe will "convert" even a die hard like me, is coming soon across the line
6. the RS6 and S8 -- only automatics
7. the new A4 Cab -- auto only
8. CVT and new 6spd conventional automatic will be "enough" to certify for US, why bother with manual.
9. new W8 Passat will soon (2003 model) be avail with 6spd manual and sport suspension.
=====
Conclusion (my opinion): perhaps while not withdrawn from the market entirely, the manual transmission Audis will (are) become (ing) an increasingly smaller percentage of the total sold (according to my dealer) and therefore will be "THE" special order cars, discounts will be more rare on the manuals, and trade in values will be eroded. Result: we consumers won't want to order our cars "special" pay more than an identical one that is on the lot but that has an auto, have the residual value of the manual Audi erode faster than the auto, and probably have less aggressive lease rates for the manual transmission cars.
I don't like it, not at all -- but ditto the above for BMW and Mercedes (heck Mercs are probably pretty darn close to 100% automatic already). There are NO 7 series BMW's with sticks and it is hard to come by a 5 series with one (even though like the A6 2.7T, there are BMW 5 series with stick shifts "on the lot.").
VW -- virtually all VW's do come with sticks -- so for now Audi will go after the sporty crowd who apparently are plunking down in increasing numbers, money for automatic Audis far more than they are for the stick shift versions. The argument of the sportier automatic is gaining some believers through the inclusion of the manu-matic transmissions that have become the virtual standard since calendar year 1997.
Heck, I even bought my A6's with automatics, because I wanted the 4.2 package -- the automatic, which I did not want, came along for the ride.
Hopefully I can keep the allroad for at least 36 months (which is my plan), for I fear that even the mighty S4 which may be initially offered with a stick shift -- will change to all auto (like the S6) due to lack of interest in a stick shift version.
2002 base model 54,235
PPD 1,000
PPC 2,975
PPX 1,730
ski sack 250
heated rear seats 250
SUM 60,440
PPD: auto dimming mirror w compass, auto dimming exterior mirrors, homelink, seats memory
PCC: leather upholstery, glass sunroof
PPX: xenon lights, multifunction steering wheel, parctronic
2003 Model (incl. leather int.) 54,640
PPY 3,260
PCW 480
SUM 58,380
PPY: glass sunroof, xenon lights, multifunction steering wheel, homelink, seats memory, autodimming mirrors (interior and exterior)
PCW: heated rear seats, ski sac.
So the only difference between the two models is the Parctronic (500 CAD)
The difference is 1560$. Is there any catch?
This is a $14,333 depreciation over 2 years and 35,000 miles. The car has "devalued" 41 cents/mile for the last 2 years!
Assuming I put on another 15,000 miles before the warranty is out next July, using this formula the car will be worth about $22,017 at that time.
I'm also assuming that the rate of depreciation slows somewhat after the 3 rd year of ownership, even so , markcincinnati does make a good case for leasing versus buying after looking at these figures!
Those that can, I take my hat off to -- I think it is a false economy to buy on time over leasing (unless, perhaps 0% interest is ever offered on an Audi [Ha! -- and pigs will fly, too] uh, er, not likely that is).
Anyway, that is what Miata's are for, a nice manual roadster to through around!!
Buy what appreciates and rent everything else... Logic dictates I do this, but real estate prices in NYC combined with my meager starting salaries on or near the bottom of the totem pole since I graduated college 4 years ago has forced me to do the opposite. I rent my apartment and just bought a leftover 2001 Honda Prelude Type SH at the end of April. I paid cash for the car. For what the car cost, would be a good start for a down payment on a condo around here.
Once I start making more money and buy a place of my own, I will start to lease cars.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
I plan to stay in my apt for another 2 years (just signed a 2 year lease extension) and in that time save up enough money for a downpayment on a condo. Ideally I'd like to buy a 1 bedroom in the city, live in it for a few years, and then rent it out as a second source of income. Then I'd like to either move out to Jersey or Up to Westchester and buy a house with a garage so I don't have to worry about parking on the street!
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
OT: Make sure you buy in a condo (like you mention in your message) if you want to rent it out one day. Co-ops, as you probably know, often have draconian restrictions about residents renting out their units.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
Yes, I can hear cringing. . . .
Next time I'll do things differently. If I listen real hard, can I hear you crossing your fingers for me!?! ;')