Maybe the dealer ordered the new tranny as a good-will gesture thinking it would make you happier about the service they provided than fixing it or not finding anything wrong. Looks like it backfired on him and you became more upset because you are getting a new tranny under warranty.
There are many DVD-Audio discs now available for DTS 5.1 channel sound - ALL the channels have different, discrete sound information for TRUE surround sound. There is no surround encoding as with Dolby Stereo - the audio quality and separation is much better.
Regarding the power rating - you are correct that the total watts means nothing. There are many ways of measuring watts as well - RMS, Peak, PMPO,etc., and at various levels of distortion. Without knowing the reference, you cannot compare the ratings. You can blow out the windows with 10 watts RMS if your speakers are efficient!
While Elliot Scheiner is not a design engineer like Mark Levinson, he is a good mixer, and knows what sounds good. Hopefully, Honda will not have ground the final cost of the system too much, and it will sound good. Adding the center channel makes a tremendous difference in the sound stage. I think only Volvo had done this in the past.
I just found something I hadn't noticed before and I haven't seen any posts about.
From the Acura website to the TL "micro-site" choose "Gallery". In the lower left of the page, under the little TL picture that says "360 view" above it, there is a link that says "Interactive Showroom". It is pretty cool. Has lots of information in audio and video. As it says it has interactive stuff, too. You can play with the power seat, the air conditioner, the dash displays, etc.
I can't get over how much really good stuff this car has to offer. I'm more impressed every time I check it out.
btw - in the audio description of the TL's audio system they refer to Elliot Scheiner as an engineer. "automophile" - you should check it out. They have a really good video depiction of how the system is set up.
I and others took some guff for questioning whether Acura had really done anything last year to correct the faulty transmission design or simply offered an extended warranty.
Again, my research efforts to get to the "real" bottom of this issue have yet to produce any factual information from Acura to indicate they made ANY changes whatsoever to the actual design or manufacturing of the transmissions subsequent to the date the problems were first reported. The only factual information I have been able to get is that the new 2004 redesigned TL will use a different transmission.
Remind me again, why does someone buy a TL built in Ohio with a transmission that breaks over an Accord EX built in Ohio with a transmission that works? Better dealer service because you'll need it more? Sorry to be cynical, but as a previous Acura owner and current Honda owner (albeit a manual transmissioned S2000), I find this entire situation unacceptable for a "luxury" brand.
My wife has a 2001 Accord EX.. Her transmission has failed also.. 4-Cyl engine.. And, Honda has extended the transmission warranty to 100,000 miles.. Not specifically for hers, but for a whole batch of 2001 4-cyl Accords. dulnev: This may make you feel better. Her transmission failed at 18,000 miles, and she now has 46,000. Not one hiccup since.
Please don't slander the Ohio people over the Acura transmission issue. The transmission was one of the few major parts of the car IMPORTED FROM JAPAN!!!
tturedraider - Elliot Scheiner is a recording engineer - a mixer, not a design engineer. However, this may not make any difference - he still knows what sounds good.
I already have some DVD-Audio discs ready to audition in the new TL as soon as they are available!!!
"Automatic or Stik Shift no charge option" by jchan2
I highly doubt this as the 6MT comes with the Brembo brakes, LSD, and stiffer strut bars. If it were, I'd be really pissed because I need to get an A/T so the wife can drive. Why should I pay the same price for 3 important features that I'm not getting?
As for the release date - my dealer rep expects a some units in a few days before 10/6, but won't be able to sell any until then.
Usually AT cost more than Manual. In all 3 reviews I have read, the 6M does comes with beefier stabilize bar, Brembo brake. If you want them, buy A-spec option. You got all three and skirt for more muscular exterior.
One thing critical to a sports sedan is a Limited Slip Diff and it is even more important with FWD. I think the new TL manual has an LSD.
Too bad Honda doesn't give the automatic TL owners a choice and offer an LSD. Nissan doesn't appear to offer and LSD in the auto G35 either. Poor BMW 3 series owners can't get an LSD in anything unless they go with the M3. At least BMW lets them pay extra for metallic paint :-)
Didn't intend to slander Ohio at all. Point was that as a previous Acura and current Honda owner, I see almost no evidence that Acura is a premium brand. Certainly not like Lexus or even Infiniti.
According to the Edmunds preview article by Erin Riches, "if you opt for the navigation system, you'll be able to watch regular DVDs when the vehicle is in park".
By the way, can anyone tell me if the 6MT with Navi option will be available for Canada? This option combination is clearly illustrated on the Acura.com (US) site but not clear on the Acura.ca (Canadian) site (ie. photo gallery, specifications).
Every form of Automobile news list them as a premium brand, so tell us (in your infinite wisdom) why don't you consider them Premium.
Secondly, what makes Lexus and Infiniti a premium brand over Acura-have you ever sat inside an IS-300 or a G-35? if that is what you consider premium, then I would consider a Hyundai Sonata premium as well.
Bottom line- Lexus, Acura and Infiniti, same Japanese product with different badging and slighty different mechanics.
When 2005 Legacy GT arrives next year with Turbo, LSD and AWD it will embarrass lot of so called sport sedans; especially those poseurs driven by front wheels only.
The Legacy will blow- but at what price? Fuel Efficiency? Fold Down rear seats?
Would anyone walk into a Toyota dealer and tell the sales person that he's a sport-car kinda guy and would like a Camry SE V6? The Camry is not a sport-sedan- neither is the Accord. Both are family cars.
What I think about the TL is that the ES330 will be blown away simply because the TL offers more for less in typical Honda fashion.
BMW wants you to pay extra for fold down rear seats and Metallic Paint. All the European Car companies charge for Metallic paint except for Volkswagen.
Long waiting lines Snobby dealers charging you extra for accesories you don't want (I don't know if Acura is better, but some Honda dealers in my area are absolutely certain you "must" buy the cassette player in order for the whole Odyssey to drive)
Variable valve technology was originally used as a method for decreasing emissions and increasing fuel economy. Power gains from early versions were fairly modest.
Honda's early applications in production cars (NSX and Integra) allowed them to extract high performance from relatively small engines. Meaning that it's purpose was to save both weight and bulk in the engine compartment.
Recent versions of the VTEC system have been used to deliver decent torque throughout the midrange without sacrificing fuel economy and emissions. Take the original MDX engine as one example. It had a very flat torque curve and decent amount of power, while allowing a ULEV rating and good gas mileage for a vehicle of its size and weight.
In short, variable valve technology can be tweaked for a variety of uses.
When it comes to torque peaks, well... That's just a number. Looking at the Element's 2.4L engine (161 lb-ft at 4,500), you'd think it had less power than the CR-V's 2.4L (162 lb-ft at 3,600). But when you look at the curves, you see that the Element has a slight advantage from 1,000 to about 2,500 rpms. Then the CR-V passes it, only to lose the advantage again around 4,000 rpms. Although it has the highest peak, the 2.4L in the TSX actually bests both SUVs in torque output along the entire rev band.
"Snobby dealers charging you extra for accesories you don't want"
I haven't noticed this w/ Honda dealers, but I know for a fact that Toyota practices this religiously. I was shopping for an SUV a few years back and was looking at the 4 Runner. The trailer hitch was an option that I did not need, but they did not have a single 4 Runner without it on the lot. I ended up getting a Montero Sport for a myriad of other reasons - and it ROCKS! Try to notice the 4 Runners on the road (shouldn't be too hard - every other person seems to drive one - one of the main reasons I didn't get it). Every one of them has a trailer hitch. How many of them do you think ever used it? An option should be up to the buyer...not the seller.
I second what varmint said. I have a difficult enough time avoiding screeching the tires off the line with CL-S. There is NO shortage of torque with the 3.2.
You cannot get the Navi with the 6MT in Canada. We will have 3 versions of the TL: Base, Navi Package, and Dynamic Package (6MT, Brembo).
We seem to always get weird option combos. I was pricing out the '04 Maxima last night and found out I can't get a 5-seat SE with a regular sunroof and Navi. But have to take the rear spoiler. Kinda sucks. BTW, I think a Maxima SE with Navi may undercut the TL with Navi by a grand or so, maybe a bit more. That may be an interesting cross-shopping decision. The one big plus for the Max is that it has a family-sized trunk. I'm a bit concerned about the 12.5 cubic ft. trunk in the TL. That's even smaller than the one in the A4.
When I acquired my Odyssey in '99, the 1 st dealer add $5000 dealer options on to the Van and you have to take it to get the van. A year ago when I visit Toyota dealers, the worst one ask me to buy at least $1000 option in Invoice price. So who is worse? It all depends on dealership, not manufacturer. Although TL has all in the standard equipment except Nav, there still many accessories that dealer can add to bump up the revenue. Like Gold Package, appearance package (fender/pin strip/mask), alarm system (not anti-thief), break sensor, special wheels, parking assist, leather treatment, under-coating (yes, they still sell it), etc. When the car is hot, do expect dealer request buyer to absorb the extra!
I priced out a Maxima SE with leather (standard on the SE-4seat in Canada) with auto transmission package and Navi and the price came out to $43,800 CAD. I anticipate the TL with Navi to MSRP at $44,000 - $45,000 CAD.
One dealer in my area practices the "They've all got accesories" method. All the Toyota dealers in my region (5) don't say a word about accesories except for a display in the showroom. I have 6 Honda dealers in my region- just 1 forces the accesories on you. All the others are quite friendly.
If that's the case, I think I'll go for the Dynamic Package even though it also means buying a set of winter performance radials. I want to DRIVE the car, not play with it (I currently have a 2000 TL but I miss my 1992 Accord 5-speed).
BTW, one of the best rated winter performance radial tire is the Dunlop SP Winter Sport M3. The Goodyear Eagle Ultra Grip GW-2 and the Bridgestone Blizzak LM-22 are also excellent choices, according to Consumer Reports but the Dunlop is better priced.
Very attractive, but 2 disadvantages that would probably prevent me from getting it:
1. No Navi - I really want this "toy" , and 2. The necessity of using winter tires would mean the substantial cost of buying an extra set of alloys and tires plus the hassle of always having to find room to store 4 extra tires/wheels. At 17" x 235, these are pretty big puppies!
Are you talking about the A-Spec Package? Because you can buy the A-Spec with any TL. The Automatic Tranny A-Specs get better brakes, shocks, etc. the 6MT A-Specs are purely cosmetic.
Here's why I don't consider Acura a "premium" brand:
Model mix / price points: The vast majority of Acura's sold are FWD RSX's, CL's, TSX's and TL's, all of which are priced from $20k to $32k +/-, marginally above the price range of the Accord and, in many cases, below the content of a fully equiped Accord EX V6 coupe or sedan.
Acura's only current car above the $32k price point is the RL, whcih has been a miserable failure in terms of sales volume. The $36k+ MDX SUV is even beign challenged by the less expensive Pilot alternative.
By contrast, Lexus may have a model or two that are in the low $30's, but the majority of their models are "premium" cars selling for $40k to $65k - GS, LS, SC. Even the ES is above everything in the Acura line with the exception of the RL. And the expensive Lexus models actually sell, unlike the RL.
Lexus clearly differentiates it's service experience over Toyota more than Acura does over Honda.
Infiniti is somewhere in between. Their Q45 doesn't sell a whole lot better than the RL, but it is a $50-60k car that offers a lot more. What Infiniti lacks in Lexus luxury, it at least partially makes up for in innovation and performance - a G35 isn't a 5-series, but it's a hell of a lot closer than any FWD Acura. the FX35/45 is a bold move that seems to have a following.
I am not Acura bashing. They make some very nice cars. As does Honda. There just really isn't any intrinsic difference that can be used to claim Acura is a premium brand. In other countries, there is no distinction - it's all Honda. And when you look at the models, how can you distinguish between the two other than a few more do-dads in the cockpit??
The old Acura had a much better claim to the claim of "premium" The Legend GS was far superior in it's day than the current RL.
I'm in love with the new TL but the matter of the fact is that one of the serious reasons i like the idea of owning an Acura was the reason that it was a luxury performance car maker that sold cars for reasonable prices. Now on another site it states that Acura is most likely gonna sell for the TL for $33,600.00 US dollars. Roughly 33k and five hundered destination charges. Now this is already the price of the current type-s with navi! So if i want an A-type plus navigation i'm gonna pay somewhere in the neighborhood of 38k-39k before tax & financing! So i'm gonna pay 45k out the door for a TL. WoW what value...something is wrong here i thought Acura wanted to sell it for a reasonable price. I still like the idea of owning the new TL but now i think some people will shy away from owning the new TL...they might have to think twice before dishing out that much cash flow...2003 TL type-s with navi is is roughly 33.5k...2004 TL A-type with navi is gonna be aprox 38-39k. Am I understanding this correctly? I know the new TL has more than a type s 2003 but something still doesn't feel right.
Comments
Looks like it backfired on him and you became more upset because you are getting a new tranny under warranty.
I should make an appointment to check my replacement tranny. It has been shifting badly recently.
Regarding the power rating - you are correct that the total watts means nothing. There are many ways of measuring watts as well - RMS, Peak, PMPO,etc., and at various levels of distortion. Without knowing the reference, you cannot compare the ratings. You can blow out the windows with 10 watts RMS if your speakers are efficient!
While Elliot Scheiner is not a design engineer like Mark Levinson, he is a good mixer, and knows what sounds good. Hopefully, Honda will not have ground the final cost of the system too much, and it will sound good. Adding the center channel makes a tremendous difference in the sound stage. I think only Volvo had done this in the past.
From the Acura website to the TL "micro-site" choose "Gallery". In the lower left of the page, under the little TL picture that says "360 view" above it, there is a link that says "Interactive Showroom". It is pretty cool. Has lots of information in audio and video. As it says it has interactive stuff, too. You can play with the power seat, the air conditioner, the dash displays, etc.
I can't get over how much really good stuff this car has to offer. I'm more impressed every time I check it out.
btw - in the audio description of the TL's audio system they refer to Elliot Scheiner as an engineer. "automophile" - you should check it out. They have a really good video depiction of how the system is set up.
Again, my research efforts to get to the "real" bottom of this issue have yet to produce any factual information from Acura to indicate they made ANY changes whatsoever to the actual design or manufacturing of the transmissions subsequent to the date the problems were first reported. The only factual information I have been able to get is that the new 2004 redesigned TL will use a different transmission.
Remind me again, why does someone buy a TL built in Ohio with a transmission that breaks over an Accord EX built in Ohio with a transmission that works? Better dealer service because you'll need it more? Sorry to be cynical, but as a previous Acura owner and current Honda owner (albeit a manual transmissioned S2000), I find this entire situation unacceptable for a "luxury" brand.
dulnev: This may make you feel better. Her transmission failed at 18,000 miles, and she now has 46,000. Not one hiccup since.
regards,
kyfdx
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I already have some DVD-Audio discs ready to audition in the new TL as soon as they are available!!!
Camry SE V6 grannymobile - 240 lbs-ft @3,600 rpm
270 HP! Who are they kidding?
I highly doubt this as the 6MT comes with the Brembo brakes, LSD, and stiffer strut bars. If it were, I'd be really pissed because I need to get an A/T so the wife can drive. Why should I pay the same price for 3 important features that I'm not getting?
As for the release date - my dealer rep expects a some units in a few days before 10/6, but won't be able to sell any until then.
Too bad Honda doesn't give the automatic TL owners a choice and offer an LSD. Nissan doesn't appear to offer and LSD in the auto G35 either. Poor BMW 3 series owners can't get an LSD in anything unless they go with the M3. At least BMW lets them pay extra for metallic paint :-)
By the way, can anyone tell me if the 6MT with Navi option will be available for Canada? This option combination is clearly illustrated on the Acura.com (US) site but not clear on the Acura.ca (Canadian) site (ie. photo gallery, specifications).
Secondly, what makes Lexus and Infiniti a premium brand over Acura-have you ever sat inside an IS-300 or a G-35? if that is what you consider premium, then I would consider a Hyundai Sonata premium as well.
Bottom line- Lexus, Acura and Infiniti, same Japanese product with different badging and slighty different mechanics.
Would anyone walk into a Toyota dealer and tell the sales person that he's a sport-car kinda guy and would like a Camry SE V6? The Camry is not a sport-sedan- neither is the Accord. Both are family cars.
What I think about the TL is that the ES330 will be blown away simply because the TL offers more for less in typical Honda fashion.
BMW wants you to pay extra for fold down rear seats and Metallic Paint. All the European Car companies charge for Metallic paint except for Volkswagen.
Snobby dealers charging you extra for accesories you don't want (I don't know if Acura is better, but some Honda dealers in my area are absolutely certain you "must" buy the cassette player in order for the whole Odyssey to drive)
did honda lose their way???
Snobby dealers charging you extra for accesories you don't want"
Doesn't reflect the experience in most dealerships in my area.
Do you know anything about cars?
I really feel embarass for you-I don't think you should even mention the name Camry on this board.
2. Butch amounts of torque is the thing that leads to torque steer in a FWD vehicle.
3. I've never read a single published complaint by a non-crackpot writer about the Acura 3.2L engine lacking pulling power.
Honda's early applications in production cars (NSX and Integra) allowed them to extract high performance from relatively small engines. Meaning that it's purpose was to save both weight and bulk in the engine compartment.
Recent versions of the VTEC system have been used to deliver decent torque throughout the midrange without sacrificing fuel economy and emissions. Take the original MDX engine as one example. It had a very flat torque curve and decent amount of power, while allowing a ULEV rating and good gas mileage for a vehicle of its size and weight.
In short, variable valve technology can be tweaked for a variety of uses.
When it comes to torque peaks, well... That's just a number. Looking at the Element's 2.4L engine (161 lb-ft at 4,500), you'd think it had less power than the CR-V's 2.4L (162 lb-ft at 3,600). But when you look at the curves, you see that the Element has a slight advantage from 1,000 to about 2,500 rpms. Then the CR-V passes it, only to lose the advantage again around 4,000 rpms. Although it has the highest peak, the 2.4L in the TSX actually bests both SUVs in torque output along the entire rev band.
I haven't noticed this w/ Honda dealers, but I know for a fact that Toyota practices this religiously. I was shopping for an SUV a few years back and was looking at the 4 Runner. The trailer hitch was an option that I did not need, but they did not have a single 4 Runner without it on the lot. I ended up getting a Montero Sport for a myriad of other reasons - and it ROCKS! Try to notice the 4 Runners on the road (shouldn't be too hard - every other person seems to drive one - one of the main reasons I didn't get it). Every one of them has a trailer hitch. How many of them do you think ever used it? An option should be up to the buyer...not the seller.
We seem to always get weird option combos. I was pricing out the '04 Maxima last night and found out I can't get a 5-seat SE with a regular sunroof and Navi. But have to take the rear spoiler. Kinda sucks. BTW, I think a Maxima SE with Navi may undercut the TL with Navi by a grand or so, maybe a bit more. That may be an interesting cross-shopping decision. The one big plus for the Max is that it has a family-sized trunk. I'm a bit concerned about the 12.5 cubic ft. trunk in the TL. That's even smaller than the one in the A4.
TL-standard leather.
If that's the case, I think I'll go for the Dynamic Package even though it also means buying a set of winter performance radials. I want to DRIVE the car, not play with it (I currently have a 2000 TL but I miss my 1992 Accord 5-speed).
BTW, one of the best rated winter performance radial tire is the Dunlop SP Winter Sport M3. The Goodyear Eagle Ultra Grip GW-2 and the Bridgestone Blizzak LM-22 are also excellent choices, according to Consumer Reports but the Dunlop is better priced.
1. No Navi - I really want this "toy"
2. The necessity of using winter tires would mean the substantial cost of buying an extra set of alloys and tires plus the hassle of always having to find room to store 4 extra tires/wheels. At 17" x 235, these are pretty big puppies!
Model mix / price points: The vast majority of Acura's sold are FWD RSX's, CL's, TSX's and TL's, all of which are priced from $20k to $32k +/-, marginally above the price range of the Accord and, in many cases, below the content of a fully equiped Accord EX V6 coupe or sedan.
Acura's only current car above the $32k price point is the RL, whcih has been a miserable failure in terms of sales volume. The $36k+ MDX SUV is even beign challenged by the less expensive Pilot alternative.
By contrast, Lexus may have a model or two that are in the low $30's, but the majority of their models are "premium" cars selling for $40k to $65k - GS, LS, SC. Even the ES is above everything in the Acura line with the exception of the RL. And the expensive Lexus models actually sell, unlike the RL.
Lexus clearly differentiates it's service experience over Toyota more than Acura does over Honda.
Infiniti is somewhere in between. Their Q45 doesn't sell a whole lot better than the RL, but it is a $50-60k car that offers a lot more. What Infiniti lacks in Lexus luxury, it at least partially makes up for in innovation and performance - a G35 isn't a 5-series, but it's a hell of a lot closer than any FWD Acura. the FX35/45 is a bold move that seems to have a following.
I am not Acura bashing. They make some very nice cars. As does Honda. There just really isn't any intrinsic difference that can be used to claim Acura is a premium brand. In other countries, there is no distinction - it's all Honda. And when you look at the models, how can you distinguish between the two other than a few more do-dads in the cockpit??
The old Acura had a much better claim to the claim of "premium" The Legend GS was far superior in it's day than the current RL.