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Here is the deal: to be a true luxry sports sedan (coupe), it must meet minimum requirements:
1). Rear driven
2). 50-50 weight balance
3). driver attracting features (low profile tire, large wheel, big brake, LSD and etc).
To be a hot competitor, it also has to do the followings:
1). competitive price (other than BM and MB brands)
2). high quality material inside and outside
3). Nice to have features (options)
Honda has a long history of being high on quality of driving chains but low on everything else. In doing so it's become the most profitable mass car/truck manufacturer in the world (But now is losing ground in luxury segment and being squezzed at low end). When quality was still a slogan at most of other manus, it's ok for Honad(Acura included) to sell cheap on their vehicles. But with everybody catching up, it's no more, especially at luxury brand.
To prove a point, have you noticed how Acura dress up MDX's waste pipes? It was screwed with a chromed cover on Pilot's (or they are all the same iron with Acura covered with a fake silver).
Acura needs to look no further than Infiniti for a clue. I am always puzzled to think why Honda wants to be a value leader (instead of a premium leader) in every segment it competes given its reputation of gold standard of quality and reliability? I can only self explain that Handa is so entrenched (so become trapped) in their 70-80's thinking that they forgot they are living in 21st century.
Give TL (or XL) a BMW 3-5 series type of design with more HP, it can charge any price that is only second to BMW's.
A true sports car/sedan will always give the driver a feeling of full control, even when pushed.
But, as the article said, "...when pressed the tail can slide out unexpectedly--even with stability control...", you've got a serious problem.
I hope muspod is right about the G35's crash test results.
To be a hot competitor, it ALSO has to do the following:
1). competitive price (other than BM and MB brands)
2). high quality material inside and outside
3). Nice to have features (options)
Acura has 2/3 BUT The Acura is wrong wheel drive, 70/30 balance, and some driver features
read the post correctly bodble2
The TL is a gussied up accord for someone that has been in accord for 20 years. And there's nothing wrong with that. But don't fool yourself thinking that this is a true sports sedan.
Next week, this discussion will be closed as Edmunds is moving this to their "new" rather than "future" category, and we'll continue in the active Acura TL discussion. Thanks!
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This is a common fallacy that's promoted by people who want to discredit CR's auto tests. CR doesn't have a single pool of staffers who test anything that comes up. Their staff for testing autos is dedicated to that purpose and hired with the necessary qualifications to perform those tests. Those folks have nothing to do with microwaves and vacuum cleaners.
I'd agree that, given CR's lack of "enthusiast" leanings, they may not be the first and best source for tests of sporty cars. But the tests are certainly valid. After all, you have to look at all auto tests with some grain of salt... some of the gushing fanboy reviews that you see in enthusiast magazines are also pretty suspect.
"Acura has 2/3 BUT The Acura is wrong wheel drive, 70/30 balance"
Try 61/39 for the automatic, 60/40 for the manual. 70/30 isn't even close. If you want your points to be considered credible, you may want to work on the accuracy of your claims.
Finally Acura sales have been doing good. Just because the 96-98 TL was priced in the same price range as the 04 model isn't a bad thing. The 96-98 TL was a beautiful car inside and out. A little bland on the back end but the headlights made up for it. Had I had 33K in 1997 to burn on a car the TL would have been a perfect choice. The 02-03 TL styling was perfect in my book. A couple creases missing on the back end but still looks very classic to me.
when the AC is off. I turned off the climate control and when I put my car into P after extended driving, the engine would rev up to about 2000 rev/m and then down to about 1000.
When I switch the ignition on and then turn it back on, everything seems to be normal.
Right. If traction control does not engage when nudging the car onto the road, it must be lacking torque.
"The designers must also have spent some time sitting in a G35, as it's about as bad with the cheap plastic chrome." - jonesok1
There are some chrome bits in the TL, but they've very minor details. I've got a sneaking suspicion that this remark actually references the aluminum trim (which is real). Care to clarify?
And why do you keep assuming that TL owners think the TL is a "true sports sedan". varmint earlier had posted that the TL is a combination of luxury and sport, and I think that's how most TL buyers look at it.
Take talon95's advice. Do your homework, or else you'll be nothing but a troll.
I'm not sure what a "true sports sedan" really is, because there are some "family sedans" (like the Mazda6, Altima 3.5, and V6 versions of the Accord) that offer performance on par with so called "sports sedans." But, the Acura FWD vehicles compete well with most "sports sedans."
Rear wheel drive definitely offers signficant handling advantages, but you can get excellent handling in a FWD'er as well. I don't think the Acura is going to give you the kind of balance and "sports sedan" experience of a BMW, but the Acura TL has a different mission. It is upscale vehicle with sporty performance and lots of features. Sort of a halfway point between the Lexus ES300 and the sportier sedans (e.g., BMW 3 and 5 series).
I agree that Acura doesn't offer the same prestige as MB, BMW, and Lexus, but who cares? I'm interested in performance, comfort, and looks, not prestige.
talon95 - that was a lucid and balanced take on CR. I always look at CR with a grain of salt, because they tend to overemphasize the practical aspects of a vehicle and they care little about style and fun. If we all listened to CR, we'd all be in Camrys and Accords. But, I also find their tests to be more balanced and even handed than enthusiast mags (which seem to gush about every non-American make - particularly vehicles from Honda, Toyota, and BMW).
Incidently, I find the road tests here at Edmunds to be a nice middle ground.
I've driven the new Accord, and the new TL is way more car than the Accord. The Accord is a great car for what it is, but it is in a different league.
You have to listen to the demo DVD-A disk to really appreciate the sound system. Even the best sounding 2-channel system is lacking after listening to multi-channel music. There is more to music than highs and deep base. DVD-A adds another dimension to the sound.
Acura must figure that rear drive and weight balance will at least cost 2-3K and if they can sell TL in the same price range, it scores a profit. Same old thinking and leave out car enthusiasts. It does that at a cost of losing out potential customers! Maybe I was wrong to look up Acura to satisfy my driving needs.
Acura takes FWD as far as it will go without killing the luxury and practical aspects of the vehicle. That's why many Honda/Acura cars like the CL-S, TSX, and Integra have been described by various enthusiast mags as, "the best FWD ever". Which is as much performance as the average driver will ever need on public roads.
If you want a performance oriented car, you will have to sacrifice something. With the G35, that sacrifice is interior quality. With the IS300, it's interior space. If you wont accept any compromises, then you had better be ready to fork over the dough and saddle up to a 5 Series.
Your typical driver isn't all that focused on the issue of FWD vs. RWD. They just want an extremely comfortable upscale car with good performance.
Infiniti has no niche yet except maybe Affordable Performance.
And Lexus: They're all messed up. One end you're selling sport-sedans (IS300) and on the other end you're trying to sell comfy cruisers. (ES330) They need a niche.
People forget it was the Acura Legend from the Japanese auto makers in the late 80's, which got the recognition as their first luxury vehicle. Lexus and Infiniti followed once they seen the success of this new division from Honda.
I personally believe that Acura is just as "prestige" as Lexus and Infiniti. The fact is you can't go wrong with any of those 3 brands (Acura, Infiniti, Lexus) in terms of a great quality car that are also fun to drive, not to mention the huge savings over the BMW's (which any more get those average & below average quality/reliability marks from C/R).
Anyway, my mother-in-law who drives Benzes, Jags, and Lexuses, will not even consider an Acura.
I hear Acura is going this route for the RL in the very near future. Anybody have any info on this? Should Acura go this route?
Kahunah - There are dozens of rumors about the RL (a whole other thread). Most likely is a strong V6 or maybe a V6 and hybrid electric. It'll be FWD or AWD if the electric hybrid route is taken.
But think of what Acura/Honda can do with a state-of-the-art V8? RL, NSX, MDX, Pilot, maybe even a light truck line. How about a TLX?
Food for thought...
Infiniti could use a entry sporty model like the RSX. Brings in younger buyers and starts them off on the ladder. Sell em' an RSX at loss, then make money on them as they trade that RSX for a TSX, the TSX for a TL, the TL for an RL, and finally add an MDX/Pilot/Odyssey as a second car. And then you've made a lotta money off one person.
I do think Acura does off the best value for you dollar. Lexus uses better interior materials than Acura does in their cars but Lexus's are not my taste.
BMW: the 3 Series has had average reliability in most Consumer Report's publications since 1995 before falling to below average reliability for in CR's latest publication. The 5 Series has been hisorically above average to average reliability. The X5 is not really not that reliable and is recalled filled.
One thing I haven't heard you guys talk about is whether or not the new TL has a limited slip diferential?