Are gas prices fueling your pain?

kdhspyder · November 2007

Addendum concerning the FEH vs ICE Escape...

Here's what I come up with on the Escape comparo.

Using the two AWD vehicles you note and using Edmunds TMV prices ( w/ SAC AB for both )
FEH TMV = $28025 with mats
Escape TMV = $24100
The initial purchase difference is right about $4000 which is where most hybrids are.

I'm making a mildly inaccurate assumption that over 5 yrs the Maintenance and Insurance are the same for both so it's a wash.

Resale Values @ 5 yrs should be about 33% for each vehicle
FEH = $9250
Escape = $7950

EPA Combined Fuel Economy
FEH = 28 mpg = 35.7 gal / 1000 mi driven
Escape = 21 mpg = 47.6 gal / 1000 mi driven

Average Fuel Cost for 5 yrs = $4.00 per gal

Lifetime fuel costs ( 5 yrs @ 15000 mpy )
FEH = $4.00 x 75,000 mi x 35.7 gal/1000..........= $10710
Escape = $4.00 x 75,000 mi x 47.6 gal/1000 ... = $14280

In the previous equation ( ignoring maintenance + insurance )
( Purchase - Resale + Fuel Cost ) = Cost of Transportation
FEH = $28025 - $9250 + $10710 = $29,485
ESC = $24100 - $7950 + $14280 = $30,430

They FEH also qualifies for a $3000 Tax Credit so the advantage is greater yet.

kdhspyder · November 2007

...is that this concept of 'payback' has to have a stake driven into its heart. It's a faulty idea that somehow arose when hybrids became popular. It won't die.

There is no payback. There are only Total Expenses. Vehicles are depreciating assets that make us incur additional expenses to use. The only valid comparison is Total Cost to Total Cost. The less expensive one is the better buy.

gagrice · November 2007

The oil supply just can't cover the demand now...unless something else is done.

OPEC cut production by about a million barrels a day. So your statement is not true at all. US oil reserves are back up. The price has fallen to $91 per barrel. A false price based on the Iranian nuclear issues. Nothing to do with the supply of oil.

If oil reserves are really that critical, we have several sources of known oil that can be brought on line. We have ignored ANWR and the Florida coast line. I for one will not drive a hybrid just so the people of Florida will not see an oil platform 50 miles off their coast.

PS
Why should we believe an oil source on the oil situation in the World? They could be pumping up the price with tales of shortages.

dgecho1 · November 2007

"We have ignored ANWR and the Florida coast line."

Huh??!!?? Do you know how little oil there is at maximum 'estimates' for these areas at the rate the enormous vehicles on the raods in this country use [waste] every day.....
I, for one, do not think we should ruin some of our last wilderness areas or the everglades for poeple's uncontrollable use of oil like there is no tomorrow. I want to see this country rein in this SUV madness first before we have a 'national emergency' permitted under law that drills ANWAR and reduces our oil imports from 62 to 60% as projected....what does that do??...we spend over a trillion on a war for noo reason in the
name of oil......on and on...if we do not get serious about this whole issue we are going to nothing left for our children in 50 years and some REAL climate and coast problems...no, I do not drive a hybrid but kudos to those that do...I do drive a civic and get over 40 mpg with 5 star safety ratings.... there are many other market alternatives that are fuel efficient...but hybrids are also a viable solution.........

dave8697 · November 2007

This was no BS. I saw the ad on TV and went to the dealer and the car was offered to me at that price. They had 3 that they were going to sell and I could have had one.

dave8697 · November 2007

Sorry to burst your bubble but you are wrong here. I used Edmunds TCO values for a base Impala LS. Yes, everyone gets the $1500 rebate and most will get 5% as GM supplier or negotiation, and with the $19600 sales price that nets as a starting point, and using TCO depreciation for the first five years, the car ends up at $4900 with 75000 miles and 5 years old, with the powertrain warranty ending the NIGHT before. A car with low miles and a perfect powertrain for under 5k? That in itself would be a find.

But with your reasoning, take the $14700 Edmunds TCO depreciation for the 5 yrs and subtract it from the $15880 I was able to get the car for and what, I'm gonna be able to resell the car 1 day out of warranty for only $1180? Please tell me where I can get such a used car deal.

dave8697 · November 2007

I saw a Tv show over weekend that showed we will have 4 permanent superbases in IRAQ. They think IRAQ has more oil in reserve than saudi arabia now and it is easily brought to floating ships for global transport, unlike russia's or Iran's or Canada's oil. The US has negotiated the rights to 80% of it with the new Iraqi gov't. As far as the cost of the war, many of the costs included would be spent anyway to practice war for readiness. Globally, the US crashes a 50 million dollar airplane almost every day just staying ready. Anyone believing the 1.6 trillion dollar war on terror cost is accurate will believe anything. We are still in S. Korea after 55 years because there is a huge cost percieved for not being there.

snakeweasel · November 2007

We are still in S. Korea after 55 years because there is a huge cost percieved for not being there.

Just remember that that war is still technically still going on, we are just experiencing a "cease fire".

dave8697 · November 2007

What Ford Escape only gets 21 mpg? a 4 cyl? I get 24.5 mpg with my automatic 3900 lb ext cab 4.3 liter Sonoma truck that has nearly 100000 miles on the original spark plugs and can tow 5500 lbs. I think Ford can do better than that. My 1970 Delta 88 with a 750 lb powertrain used to get 20mpg on the highway with a THREE speed automatic and was 10 years old..

Who knows on future gas prices? Today's USA Today said the high cost of gas is 8 times as severe to lower income housholds than the rest of the people. $4 as an average over the next 5 years means $4.90 in late 2012. At that price, Hybrids break even. At that price, how many people will drop out of the workforce. What taxes will the others pay to keep the police force and welfare necessary to keep peace? Who will work a three hour shift 15 miles away for $6.50 an hour with $4.90 gas? Will Palm Beach Gardens, Florida still have 378 town owned vehicles (very few are 4 cyl) for it's employees to drive around in? Will car insurance go down because nobody can afford to drive? Will the town's vehicles have accidents with each other because they are the only ones getting free gas and thus are the only ones driving around?

kdhspyder · November 2007

I'm not talking about todays pricing or even next Spring's pricing. I'm talking about 2012 and 2015 when worldwide demand really begins to outstrip the oil supply. At that time we had better have several solutions already in the works.

dgecho1 · November 2007

100% agree! Exactly on target......

1stpik · November 2007

"Sorry to burst your bubble but you are wrong here. I used Edmunds TCO values for a base Impala LS."

Great, if you think that you can buy a brand new Impala for $16,000 today and it'll be worth $14,000 a year from now (because dealer is eating 85% of depreciation), then go for it.

KBB.com says that the $21,000 2006 Impala LS is today worth $12,735 trade-in value w/15K mi. in "good" condition. Even so, if you can buy that car from a dealer for $16,000, then have him give you $13,000 for it a year later, you should do it.

I don't think you can ..... but you're welcome to prove me wrong. Buy the car, then take it to CarMax a year from now. You don't have to sell it, just get their written offer and tell us the results.

1stpik · November 2007

"I get 24.5 mpg with my automatic 3900 lb ext cab 4.3 liter Sonoma truck ....."

The EPA says the Sonoma gets 15 mpg city and 21 mpg hwy, with an average of 17 mpg. How do you achieve 50% better mpg (average 24.5)?

kernick · November 2007

They think IRAQ has more oil in reserve than saudi arabia now and it is easily brought to floating ships ...

I think we should make a deal with China and India; ok we'll have to throw Russia in too to get the security Council vote - to vacate the people from Iraq and move and up oil production.

I'm sure with the populations of China and India, an army of 5-10 million security people would be do-able. The cost would be rather low as they would be low-tech, a simple $100 AK-74 rifle, as opposed to the million dollar armor vehicles we go thru.

If we allow the population to stay in iraq then everyone has an escort when they leave the house. We don't know how to run an occupation with the small army we have.

Now for those of you ranting about SUV's using all the oil, what about the new builders who are setting up houses with oil furnaces? What about all those people who are getting ready to drive to the ski lodges each weekend? How do those things conserve oil?

Also anyone see NBC news last night. There was an article on there about airlines flying empty planes on transatlantic routes just so they keep the Gates busy, so they don't lose the rights to the gate.

kdhspyder · November 2007

Now for those of you ranting about SUV's using all the oil, what about the new builders who are setting up houses with oil furnaces? What about all those people who are getting ready to drive to the ski lodges each weekend? How do those things conserve oil?

Every other use of petroleum products outside of transportation is small potatoes. Every day here in the US we use 25% of the total worldwide usage of petroleum ( ~ 21 mmbpd out of 85 mmbpd used in toto ).

This 21 mmbpd includes all uses, tires, plastics, home heating and transportation. Transportation is by far the biggest user @ 14 mmbpd just here in the US. In fact our transportation usage of 14 mmbpd is larger than any other country on earth - in toto.

Our transportation usage of petroleum products is the first and largest problem we have to face. Petroeum is the lifeblood of our country and our economy. Take it away and we're not much ahead of Somalia.

stever · November 2007

I think your formula:

[(Veh Cost - Resale)] + [ (Ann Mi driven * Ann Fuel Usage * Ann Avg Cost of Fuel) * Lifespan ] + [(Ann Maint + Ins) * Lifespan]

ties right in with TCO over a 5 year lifespan. And using TCO for the Civic and Escape and current gas prices, hybrids seems to be about a wash at best.

For someone like me who doesn't drive the 15,000 miles a year used in Edmunds TCO assumption (more like half that), the payback for chosing a new hybrid over a new gasser isn't worth it on strictly economic terms. Maybe if gas popped to $6 a gallon the numbers would grab my attention....

Now, I'd buy one for the green reasons, but that $4,000 initial price differential is still a bit much.

I'm not sure I agree with you on the use of payback either. If I replace my home windows with low-e windows, the payback period (last I checked) was too long to be worth it.

If I build a new house, some choices (say, R38 instead of R19 ceiling insulation) will pay for the price differential in a reasonable period (7 years or less). The energy savings pays back the initial extra cost in the thicker insulation.

This story was on the radio today -"If all Americans between 10 and 74 walked just half an hour a day instead of driving .. About 6.5 billion gallons of gasoline would be saved. And Americans would also shed more than 3 billion pounds overall." Fighting Fat and Climate Change.

gagrice · November 2007

There was an article on there about airlines flying empty planes on transatlantic routes just so they keep the Gates busy, so they don't lose the rights to the gate.

Did they mention of the seats that are filled how many paid enough to justify the use of fuel? There are ads all the time for $99 fares to Europe. How can they fly someone to the EU for $99. Then you have all the non-rev seats with friends and family riding just for the tax. If Congress were serious about conserving fossil fuel, Which they are not. They would start by taxing people by the mile on their vehicles. That should be directly used to work on the infrastructure. They would require the airlines to have a certain percentage of seats filled before they could leave the gate. When I flew NorthWorst out of Minneapolis for a year, I cannot tell you how many flights were cancelled and combined to get a full load. It is inconvenient, but more in keeping with conservation of our natural resources.

So far on this thread I have not seen anything that convinced me that I should make any sacrifice on what I drive. All the arguments sound like they come from the likes of Al "Do what I say, Not what I do" Gore.

dgecho1 · November 2007

go for it...your selfish attitude reflects in many levels of American society today..not just in cars...it makes me sick,,,

gagrice · November 2007

I'm not sure I agree with you on the use of payback either. If I replace my home windows with low-e windows, the payback period (last I checked) was too long to be worth it.

I have come to the same conclusion on Solar. I cannot get it to work out for a break-even in less than 10 years. I did try it in Lake Havasu in the 1980s. The solar cells deteriorated, the company was bankrupt and I was out a pile of money. The worst part is they are of no value at night. So if I got an EV it would not be charging when I needed it. Our refrigerators run 24/7. We have only used the AC 3 days in the last 4 months. Have not used the heat yet this year. Our new home is well insulated.

If the tax credits for solar were close to worthwhile I would reconsider. Many of my neighbors do have solar. Not sure if they are worth the hassle and eyesore.

gagrice · November 2007

go for it...your selfish attitude reflects in many levels of American society today.

Trust me, I will.

I doubt seriously that your carbon footprint would fit inside of mine. Are you one of the "do as I say" environmentalist? How many trees did you plant over the last 5 years? Are you driving an 18 year old vehicle with just over 90k miles? Better look in the mirror before you cast stones.

chuckhoy · November 2007

Solar is getting better, but still not quite there. Right now the "break even" point is about 7-8 years. That is a long time to gamble on not having a severe hail storm in my neck of the woods. I figure that one good hail storm would wipe out all the cells on my roof.

I did see that a company is developing flexible solar cells that can be printed like newspaper. They also said that they could get the costs down to about 10% of current solar cell costs. That would be worth doing. If the payback period suddenly shrunk to 1-2 years, it would be worth the risk. As it is, my house is fairly well insulated and our bills are not that much compared to older houses. Heck, if the solar cells work as planned, it may be time to switch from NG heat to electric. Gas in the winter is what kills me, not electric in the summer.

stever · November 2007

The solar payback was over 40 years when I checked using a link someone posted around CarSpace a while back. We're having turkey next week with friends at their solar, off the grid house (assuming the passes stay open crossing the Divide so we can burn 80 gallons of gas getting there and back).

Dgecho1, let's not make it personal please.

gagrice · November 2007

Hail damage is unlikely in my area. I think the intense sun is a bigger problem for us. I did see some PV cells that look like shingles. That would be something to think about on a new home. Or if you needed to replace an old roof. The bottom line is you can throw a lot of money at the problem of diminishing fossil fuel supplies and not have any affect.

As our friend Kernick has pointed out many times. What makes us think just because we use less oil, China and India will use less. Feeling guilty for being prosperous does not make a lot of sense to me.

chuckhoy · November 2007

I wonder if that takes into account the numerous government subsidies you can get to put them in. Someone in my office did some extensive research into this and came up with a pay back period of 8 years if nothing bad happened. That length of time caused them to not go through with it. I would not either for that kind of money and that long of a pay back period.

Solar plates in the shape of shingles would minimize the appearance issues, but would not have any impact on the durability issue. That is what does it for me. Here in the midwest, severe weather is a real issue. We have hail a couple of times a year every year. It is usually pea sized or smaller, but we get the occasional golf ball sized chunks. I would think that would pulverize solar cells if it can dent the heck out of a car.

Gag: Believe me, being guilty about success is not one of my many faults. Nor do I subscribe to the "well they pay x for y in so we should too" mentality. I am a firm believer that as an American we should worry about Americans first, second and third. Everybody else looks out for themselves and we should too. The Chinese are not our friends. Neither are the Saudis, Iranians, North Koreans, etc... We are not all in this together. Anybody who thinks that is dillusional.

kdhspyder · November 2007

Yes this is very true also that if you don't drive many miles on an annual basis then buying a hybrid is not all that 'economical' on a personal level. The opposite is true of course too.

I think gagrice mentioned before that he only drives about 5000 mi annually. In comparison to me he is less of a threat to the environment/fuel supply in his Sequoia than I am in my Prius.at 35000 mi annually. ( 400 gal used vs 700 gal used )

ateixeira · November 2007

What caught my attention were the words "Sequoia" and "gagrice" in the same paragraph.

Is that his wife's car?

I say this because he's been an avid Toyota critic.

kernick · November 2007

If you're going to go that far Steve, they should do something special - like have a turducken for you.

I've done the driving on thanksgiving weekend, and I'm so glad I'm not going to do that. And gas should be a little more costly by next week. But the traffic is the worst. It really hurts when the tollbooth is backed up 45 min to get the ticket, and then they charge you for using the road (I and I guess others don't do SmartPass, as many only use a toll road about once/year).

stever · November 2007

Most solar calculator sites have you plug in your zip code to account for any tax breaks (and your solar suitability). Not many state subsidies here in Idaho for saving energy, although I got a break for my new water heater.

BP Solar wants me to buy a $49k system that would save me $1140 a year.

Sharp says my payback period would be 33 years for their $38k system.

I doubt that an outfit like Real Goods or even the San Diego Home Depots would be a whole lot cheaper than the majors.

We're in an "excellent" location for solar and many of the 70's era homes in my subdivision have solar hot water systems, and one house five lots down is heated/cooled passively. It's disappointing that the payback is so long but investing in caulk offers more bang for buck.

I think I'd have to drive 800 miles just to find a tollbooth Kernick. :shades: We do plan to spend the weekend after Thanksgiving on the Interstate (ugh), but maybe the truck traffic will be lighter than usual. We're taking an extra day going over to take the blue highways as much as possible (and crossing our fingers that they won't be ice blue or snow white!).

ateixeira · November 2007

That's so long I doubt you'll ever break even. In 33 years you'll have some sort of damage to the panels.

chuckhoy · November 2007

You must drive throught he Chicago area. They have ripped out most of the toll booths in favor of the SmartPass system. The few booths that are left have LONG waits to use them. I would consider buying a pass box to use or trying an alternate route. Sometimes extra miles can cut down on time and gas.

gagrice · November 2007

I say this because he's been an avid Toyota critic.

Strange thing happened when I went to test drive a Mercedes GL320 CDI. I did not like the way the 7 speed transmission shifted. Just on a fluke while waiting for my wife at the Drs office I test drove a new Sequoia. I liked the way it drove much better than the Mercedes. We needed a vehicle for trips to the desert this winter. We take another couple and wanted something comfortable. The Sequoia gets about 1/2 the mileage of the Mercedes GL diesel. But it was $35k less cash out of pocket. When one of the dealers responded to my emails with a price $10k off of MSRP on a loaded 4X4 limited we decided to give Toyota another go. So far the only complaint is the NAV is not real good at routing. I also figured the last year of the series should be less problems than the new 2008 Sequoia. It will spend most of the time in the garage as I have my beater PU and my wife still has her old LS400.

andre1969 · November 2007

I just checked that BP site. Their $49K system would save me about $947 per year. Another $988 in tax savings if I finance it with a mortgage or HELOC. :P

That site also says that putting in one of those $49K systems would do as much good for the environment as planting two acres of trees. Well, I already have about 3 acres of forest, so can I call myself a tree-hugger? :shades:

dave8697 · November 2007

for my 25000 miles a year to work the hybrid only saves 400 gallons over a large V6 car and truck that I drive. I get 29 in the mustang and 25 in the sonoma for an avg of 27 mixing it up. 400 gallons is a lot but the first year savings go to sales tax and the second years savings go to excise taxes. By the third year the hybrid has dropped 10k in value so how am I ever going to make back that and the interest on the 22k loan?

1stpik · November 2007

The EPA says the Sonoma averages 17 mpg and the Mustang averages 20 mpg. Achieving 25 and 29 mpg respectively is truly fantastic! How do you do it?

kdhspyder · November 2007

Huh? you'll have to run that by me again. $22000 is a full sticker Civic hybrid or a standard model Prius. If you're talking about the decision whether to keep the Mustang and/or Sonoma vs buying a new hybrid ..... it's a no brainer.

It's always better economically to keep what you're driving. That's never been an issue.

The only question is 'When you're in the market for a new vehicle, which costs less?' If the analysis is done accurately the hybrid version will always cost less when comparing two similar vehicles.

A different question though is which is better for the country in conserving our fuel supplies. Just on that basis the hybrids ( and eventually diesels ) are better. However forcing the buying public to give up less efficient vehicles likely will be the last step taken only when fuel is so scarce that most of us work from home or bike/walk to work. We hopefully will never reach that level of shortage.

dave8697 · November 2007

I've been suprised by the sonoma since the day I got it. Bought it in S. Florida and drove it back to Ind., averaging 25.5mpg for 6 tanks combined over the 1200 miles. In over 6 months and 10k miles since, it has never got below 23.5mpg on any tank and has averaged 24.8. The 4.3's torque allows the V6 to hit 4th gear lockup at 45 mph and only 1300 rpms. Other than that it's a clean air filter and 36 psi in the tires. I don't do much city driving but it doesn't hurt the mileage because the truck is light for the motor and the trans quickly finds a gear where the engine lopes along at 12-1400 revs at 35, 45, or 50 mph. I expected only 22 from it, so it gives me a 10-15% bonus.
I had a new S10 with the 2.2 I4 and auto and always stayed between 19 and 21 mpg. That was a 2000 model that I traded with 5300 miles on it after a year. Too bad only 8% of these trucks got the V6 engines.
The Mustang is a 3.8 V6 that turns 2000 revs at 78 mph. It has only 150 HP and the same upshift to 4th lockup at 50 mph is at 1300 revs due to solid V6 torque. I swapped the bald 55 series tires it came with for some 60 series tires and that upped the gear ratio 6% at 35 psi in the tires. There is a push button on the shifter for 'perf mode' that changes the shift points and takes away OD. I really don't use that in the 47 mile cruise to work which includes 26 miles on the busiest interstate in the state. The other '97 Mustang V6 that I almost bought instead, had a seller that said he got 30-31 on his longer trips, so I'm disappointed with my '98's mileage but it does have a bad O2 sensor, that I have disconected, so chk eng light has been on since I got it over 2 years ago. A solid 29 mpg hardly motivates me to use a scarce vac day to get it fixed.
It also helps that the closest traffic light is over 8 miles from my house in any direction and the area is flat as a table.
As far as 17mpg EPA figure, my V8 ext cab 4x4 gets that on the long commute to work and it's not yet broken in.

bumpy · November 2007

I've been suprised by the sonoma since the day I got it. Bought it in S. Florida and drove it back to Ind., averaging 25.5mpg for 6 tanks combined over the 1200 miles. In over 6 months and 10k miles since, it has never got below 23.5mpg on any tank and has averaged 24.8.

My dad has a '98 S-10 with that 4.3 shoehorned under the hood, and that thing is the second-worst gas hog I've ever driven. GM should buy yours back and figure out how to get the rest of them to sip like that.

oldfarmer50 · November 2007

...I'll do the same thing I did in 1973 when gas SHOT UP from 30 cents to 39 cents a gallon.

I'll get real mad and loudly pronounce: "IF GAS GETS HIGHER THAN 40 CENTS A GALLON, I'LL STOP DRIVING! In other words I'll do nothing and get hosed.

petrov1 · November 2007

We need PLUG-IN hybrids NOW!
* Plug-ins could reduce the average American driver's gas consumption by 85 percent!
* RAN is going to covert a Prius to a plug-in in less than a day. What's holding back the auto industry?
* The big automakers, despite their claims to be green, are lobbying heavily against increased fuel efficiency standards
* Readers and bloggers should learn more about what real environmental leadership looks like at RAN's blog: http://understory.ran.org/2007/11/14/ran-at-the-la-auto-show/

gagrice · November 2007

We need PLUG-IN hybrids NOW!

Go for it. There are two or three companies adding a pile of batteries to a Prius so you can go 10-30 miles on battery. Of course you cannot exceed 35 MPH. And the cost is more than you paid for the Prius new. The only company that will convert your Prius today is in Colorado. Hybrids Plus will convert your Prius with a 30 mile range for ONLY $32,000. Such a deal. Don't expect Toyota to build a plug-in hybrid for several more years. The batteries needed are not invented yet. Toyota has to warranty the batteries for 10 years or 150k miles. The Li-Ion batteries are just not up to the job.

Mr_Shiftright · November 2007

The vertical axis on the left is, I believe, % of total market conquered by compact cars-- the vertical axis on the right is the price of gasoline, and the horizontal axis shows the chronological march of both gas prices and % of compacts sold.

If....and it's a big IF...this graph continued as it does now for another ten years, one could speculate a doubling of compact cars to 63% by 2014 and the extinction of big cars by about 2020 or so. We would also see gas prices doubling every 7 years.

kdhspyder · November 2007

Nice find.. It's a very insturctive presentation.

nippononly · November 2007

And look how low the average gas price is in Q1 2007. It's at $3/gallon nationally now, I believe (I am paying $3.50 now in NorCal) and they project another $0.20 bump over the next six months before possibly getting some relief from cost-of-supply forces just as demand increases for the summer driving season! Anyone think gas prices will drop significantly at that point?! :-P

fangio2 · November 2007

Hopefully,I'm not rehashing something that has been covered before.With new battery packs costing up to $3000 who is going to buy a used hybrid?Right now most of these cars still have some warranty,I assume.When they get 7-10 years old or have excessive mileage where is the market?

kdhspyder · November 2007

First lets do a reality check. At say 175,000 miles how much is any midsized non-luxury auto worth? Answer: If it runs decently it's worth about $1000 and if it doesn't run but the rest is in good shape it's worth about $500 - for parts. Ok say this 175,000 mi [Camry, Accord, Malibu, Taurus ] that's in decent shape needs some trany work or a replacement. What's a tranny going to cost? It's $2500-$3500. So the question is do you sink $3000 into a $1000 vehicle? It's the same question with the battery pack, do you sink $3000 into a vehicle that's worth $1000?

Two exmples from Edmunds site here: A 1996 Camry with 175,000 mi is worth something between $200-$900 depending on condition, ditto the Accord. The Chevy and Ford midsizers at that time were valued at $200 or less several years earlier. we're taling about $200 vehicles here. That's dinner for two. A '96 Taurus with 175,000 is worth something between $0 and $0 depending on condition.

Yes, rehash. There is no indication at all that the battery packs ever need to be replaced at any time. This aren't cell phones or flashlights, in fact the batteries may very well outlive the rest of the electronics and mechanical parts. The software almost assures that for any 'normal' life of a vehicle that the batteries never need to be replaced. The data from the market seems to be confirming this. Figure a normal life of any vehicle will be 10-15 yrs and 150,000 - 250,000 miles.

In fact after Toyota finished its benchtesting they put that statement on their website. Don't abuse the battery and there's not one indication that you'll ever have to reploace it.

lilengineerboy · November 2007

The other '97 Mustang V6 that I almost bought instead, had a seller that said he got 30-31 on his longer trips, so I'm disappointed with my '98's mileage but it does have a bad O2 sensor, that I have disconected, so chk eng light has been on since I got it over 2 years ago. A solid 29 mpg hardly motivates me to use a scarce vac day to get it fixed.

Your car has 4 O2 sensors. Depending on which one is bad, it is forcing your whole engine to run in "open-loop" which typically means running rich. This makes a lot of extra work for your catalytic converter, leading to plugging and premature failure. Your cat assembly is just shy of a grand from Ford.
It also means your car isn't controlling the combustion process and the exhaust gas pollutants as well as it should. This is why they have smog checks in CA, because otherwise, people don't maintain their vehicles.

A check engine light means something is wrong.

gagrice · November 2007

First lets do a reality check. At say 175,000 miles how much is any midsized non-luxury auto worth?

You seem to like extreme examples. What about the Prius with 90k miles and no warranty on the battery? I think anyone that thinks they can get a traction battery replaced for only $3000 is dreaming.

According to Edmund's a 2004 Prius with 90,000 miles in good condition will command $17,500 from a dealer. There have been folks that fell for those deals. In most of the USA that battery is not warrantied by Government decree as it is in the CARB states. My guess is if the battery fails it will be more than $5000 to replace. If the HSD fails it will be in the $11,000 range to replace. Every one of the dozens of sensors will cost upward of $600 to replace. Many of those emissions sensors will keep the car from starting.

I know you think that hybrids are saving the world. I happen to feel just the opposite. They are leading us down a very bad path.

1stpik · November 2007

" Bought it in S. Florida and drove it back to Ind., averaging 25.5mpg for 6 tanks combined over the 1200 miles."

The Sonoma has a 20 gallon tank, so why would you use 6 tanks to drive 1200 miles? That's only 10 mpg.

kernick · November 2007

There is no indication at all that the battery packs ever need to be replaced at any time.

First everything fails with time. In a battery it is the plates. The batteries, motors ... in the hybrid system will need to be replaced. The more systems on any vehicle the higher the repair costs will be long-term. These add to the probability that you will have an expensive repair sooner than later. If these hybrid systems are so dependable then the manufacturers should have no trouble offering a Chrysler-like lifetime warranty?? Free replacements of any failed hybrid system part? I don't see that offered; must be a reason.

Second higher eventual repair costs do affect resale value. In the past I have been intersted in some used luxury vehicles, but then realized they have active suspensions and such and want no part of that in a 6-7 year old vehicle.

The only way I see a hybrid as being a financial benefit is if - 1) you can get a similat discount off MSRP as with a regular car, 2) if you can a brand that still gets you a tax credit of over $2,000, 3) if you sell the vehicle while still under warranty, preferably by 6+ months, and 4) hope that gas prices don't decrease killing any used-car demand.

In summary I rather take my chances on a vehicle that might need a new engine or trans.; rather than a new engine, trans, or hybrid-system repair.

Oh I saw a local dealer had a Prius for under $21K yesterday. They must be discounting them, having a hard time moving them with the tax credit gone. Now if they had $3K tax credit I could see getting one, and driving it for a year or 2 then selling it for $17K or so.

gagrice · November 2007

A check engine light means something is wrong.

It would seem that is the case. My question is why Ford has so many problems with sensors? We had 4 Ford diesels. Two Excursions and two 1 ton crew cab PU trucks. The check engine lights were constantly coming on. The Ford shop was very close to our shop so we would just drop the failed unit on the way to the office. Then pick it up on the way back to camp. All they did after changing a couple sensors, that promptly failed, is reset the on board computer. This started within a week of being new and continued until I retired when the vehicles were about a year old. As far as I know they still fail within a week of being replaced or reset. Most of the smog crap is just a money maker for the automakers once the warranty is up.

Are gas prices fueling your pain?

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