Where Is Ford taking the Lincoln Motor Company?

m1miata

So why not buy a used old Town Car then? It will be the last classic from Lincoln, and I too think it looks like an American Luxury car compared to today's effort. Personally, I think I would go Caddy. In the larger class, the DTS or older DeVilles seem to have it all together at delivering what people would expect, and a bit more. The power and handling may be better than expected.
-Loren

nvbanker

So why not buy a used old Town Car then?

I like you Loren, so I won't have you killed for saying that.

heyjewel

So there will be a Lincoln sedan at the Detroit show "based on the Mustang platform." Which means a Lincoln with a live rear axle. Hey, that's great aint it? They oughtta call Lincoln's path "the Way Backward."

nvbanker

They could call it, "The Road Less Traveled"..... ?

akirby

The mustang platform was designed with IRS so I'd be surprised if the Lincoln concept has a solid rear axle.

euphonium

They could call it, "The Road Less Traveled"..... ?

I don't think so unless it was designed by M. Scott Peck, MD

derrado1

Young people are less likely to buy an old person's car than old people are likely to buy a young person's car.

Besides, why target an audience that won't be around for as long? Why shoehorn your brand into an image of stodginess? That's a surefire disaster for a brand (Buick, anyone? They're only just crawling out of the hole they dug). Yes, older people have money. But it's not as simple as that.

heyjewel

"The mustang platform was designed with IRS so I'd be surprised if the Lincoln concept has a solid rear axle. "

Designed with it maybe but it was too expensive to build that way. I would hope any Lincoln based on this would have IRS, but will the bean counters allow it?

akirby

Too expensive for a sub $20K mustang, not for a Lincoln sedan.

It sounds like the bean counters are no longer in charge. I guess we'll find out for sure next month.

savetheland

<<So there will be a Lincoln sedan at the Detroit show "based on the Mustang platform." Which means a Lincoln with a live rear axle. Hey, that's great aint it? They oughtta call Lincoln's path "the Way Backward.">>

Probably Australian Ford platform is too expensive for Lincoln. It is also consistent with all Lincolns based on Mazda6 platform. In this case it is Mazda6 modified for RWD with solid rear axle.

American luxury now became Mazda6 with nicer interior. But, I hate to tell you truth - latest Mazdas have better interiors than Lincolns. Why not just to make it happen &#150; drop Lincoln and call Mazda The American luxury, at least you can save money on development and production. Mazda-Mercury dealerships &#150; sounds good to me!

But seriously guys &#150; Lincoln is running around in panic begging platforms from Volvo, Mazda, then Ford Falcon &#150; no, wait, it is too expensive let&#146;s stay with FWD Mazda.

nvbanker

But, I hate to tell you truth - latest Mazdas have better interiors than Lincolns.

What the hell are you talking about? I like the Mazda interiors, but better than the Navigator, Aviator (may she rest in peace, like Howard Hughes), MKZ? No way, not a chance. The quality of materials is far superior in the new Lincolns, and the design is beautiful, IMO. Certainly distinctive. There are a few "oh brother"s, but not many.

savetheland

It all depends. Center console in MKZ is pretty cheezy and Lincoln interiors are more angular.

[Deleted User]

Cheesy describes the MKZ interior door panels too.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder of course, but the dash shape, which is supposed to be evocative of older Lincoln's, would have been more pleasing to me if it looked more like the Aviator's and the 03-06 Navigator's. Instead, it sticks out more, but at the same time is flatter.

And some of the panel gaps are huge. IMHO, even the cheapest VW (other than the Beetle) has a better designed and integrated interior. Still, credit where credit is due, it is an umprovement over what Ford used to do, and it is certainly better than the Fusion's (which itself is way better than the Taurus interior).

[Deleted User]

A Japanese company (Toyota) and an American company (Ford) decided to have a canoe race. Both teams practiced long and hard to reach their peak performance before the race. On the big day, the Japanese won by a mile.

The Americans, very discouraged and depressed, decided to investigate the reason for the crushing defeat. A team made up of senior management was formed to investigate and recommend appropriate action. Their conclusion was the Japanese had 8 people rowing and 1 person steering, while the American team had 8 people steering and 1 person rowing.

So, American management hired a consulting company and paid them a large amount of money for a second opinion. They advised that too many people were steering the boat, while not enough people were rowing. To prevent another loss to the Japanese, the rowing team's management structure was totally reorganized to 4 steering supervisors, 3 area steering superintendents and 1 assistant superintendent steering manager.

They also implemented a new performance system that would give the one person rowing the boat greater incentive to work harder. It was called the "Rowing Team Quality First Program", with meetings, dinners and free pens for the rower. There was discussion of getting new paddles,
canoes and other equipment, extra vacation days for practices and bonuses.

The next year the Japanese won by two miles.

Humiliated, the American management laid off the rower for poor performance, halted development of a new canoe, sold the paddles, and canceled all capital investments for new equipment. The money saved was distributed to the Senior Executives as bonuses and the next year's racing team was outsourced to India.

The End.

lemko

Young people are less likely to buy an old person's car than old people are likely to buy a young person's car.

I think Bunkie Knudsen said the same thing when he redesigned Pontiacs around 1957. Funny thing with me is that I'm a younger person and have always preferred cars that were marketed towards older folks. Those cars seem more stately and dignified compared to many vehicles marketed toward youth.

m1miata

Ah, you were that kid playing Lawrence Welk, when we were rocking to the Beatles, and Beach Boys.

Yes, I do see your point. A 1977 Cadillac was certainly more desirable than was a Chevy Monza, though a Datsun Z or a 914 back then would have been something I could have loved to own. Way back when, I did test drive a used Caddy, but gas was pretty expensive, and you could see that gauge move as you drove up a hill. A 1977-80 still would be a fine looking limo today. Sure beats some of the strange ones at least--You know those Hummer and truck limos. :sick:
-Loren

m1miata

nvbanker

the dash shape, which is supposed to be evocative of older Lincoln's, would have been more pleasing to me if it looked more like the Aviator's and the 03-06 Navigator's.

Ditto - with the exception of mid-grade seat leather, instead of top grade, the Navigator I bought in 03 was the nicest, and it's been cheapened a bit since. However, in the 07, the seat leather is 50% NICER than the 03-06, however the 79 F-150 guage cluster (xxxx) is a real turn off for me...... especially replacing the electroluminescent cluster I had...

m1miata

Oh come on now, the Navigator is a rugged off road vehicle. You don't need no sissy leather seats. Only thing truly required is a double wide parking space, and a ladder to get in.
-Loren

scootertrash

There's a little write-up in this week's Autoweek about the 4-door Mustang/Lincoln with an Austrailan heritage.

Sounds promising as long as it's sold as a Lincoln-only product with no Ford variant.

scootertrash

displacedtexan

Besides, why target an audience that won't be around for as long? Why shoehorn your brand into an image of stodginess? That's a surefire disaster for a brand (Buick, anyone? They're only just crawling out of the hole they dug). Yes, older people have money. But it's not as simple as that.

An individual buyer in their 60s might not be around as long as someone in their 30s or 40s - the market will be around since the 30 and 40 year-old folks will eventually get older.

No, it's not as simple as older people having more money. But, older people may prefer something more stately than something marketed to the "zoom zoom" generation. Stately design doesn't have to equate with stodgy. I want stately design, easy entry and exit, good space, sharp handling, good acceleration, and good braking. The Lexus LS4-- family has that. What they don't have is history and heritage. I guess I want that along with everything else, too. I'm easy.

displacedtexan

Funny thing with me is that I'm a younger person and have always preferred cars that were marketed towards older folks. Those cars seem more stately and dignified compared to many vehicles marketed toward youth.

That's pretty much what I think, too. But, I'm usually a contrarian.

nvbanker

Me too, I'm afraid. I have always desired a car about 20 years older than I am - except I'm running out of 20 year future, probably. Like refinement, comfort, luxury, lots and lots of gismos, and lots of room. At my age, that's not that unusual, but driving a Ford LTD at age 20 is a bit odd, even if it was a coupe with Wide Ovals on it. Stately and dignified appealed to me. Never was much in the zoom zoom crowd - seemed those guys were trying to prove something that I didn't have a basic need to fulfill. Although a good street race I was always ready for, with whatever I had....

Whatever I'm hearing about 4 door Mustangs and Mustang station wagons just blows me away!! Finally, they may put the Mustang in the grave, as they did with the Thunderbird, doing this, unless they won't be called Mustangs, and will just be built on the platform....

m1miata

As does a Cadillac.

rockylee

Loren,

That's a pretty funny post....

Rocky

xtec

Don't worry, the reports of four-door Mustangs are mistaken. Thank goodness!

Ford is, however, looking at a sedan BASED on the Mustang platform, but with independent rear suspension. That's the kind of thinking this company needs.

rockylee

Well in what segment does Ford plan on putting this new sedan ? If they plan on adding it to the entry-lux performance sedan segment they will be doomed. I just don't see any room where a mustang based sedan will be able to compete.

Rocky

scootertrash

A good handling V-8 RWD Sedan is EXACTLY what's needed, not a pale copy of an Acura.

In a release issued Dec. 15, Ford said the company has no plans to expand the Mustang line. The release stated:

&#147;Ford Motor Company today made clear that recent media speculation concerning an expanded Mustang line&#151;including a sedan and wagon model to be sold in global markets&#151;is not true. Mustang is an icon and will continue in its current form: a unique, two-door, rear-wheel drive, 2+2 performance car.

&#147;At the 2007 North American International Auto Show, Ford will unveil a four-door, rear-wheel-drive concept car. The concept, known as &#145;The Interceptor,&#146; is based on the Mustang&#146;s rear-wheel-drive architecture but it is not a Mustang and no production plans have been announced. Additional information on the Ford rear-drive concept will be available Dec. 31, 2006.&#148;

rockylee

The problem is it will fail miserably just like Charger.

Rocky

scootertrash

"The problem is it will fail miserably just like Charger."

Ford and Lincoln need a car that is such a failure that it sells 110,000 units per year, like the Charger does.
Not to mention they could make that failure more miserable with variants like the Magnum @ only 60,000 per year or the really miserable Chrysler 300 coming in at only about 140,000 per year.

Or they can make an obsolete Volvo into a stale Acura imitator.

Yeah, that's the ticket.

rockylee

The Charger sold well its first year but it will not sustain those sales. If these cars are such sucesses maybe you can explain why Chrysler is in the toilet ? What I've read the Magnum is a failure. The 300 has lost its clout. I see the same cars on the lot at my local dealerships for days and even months.

Chrysler, had the "Dukes of Hazzard" movie to help out also. However like the car its old news. Good cars like Acura's TL, have enough clout to keep sales strong for more than a year or 2.

Rocky

heyjewel

Well said,scoot.

A RWD 4 Dr Linc or Merc based on Mustang but WITH IRS AND similar drivetrain options as the Mustang has (IOW, a 6speed manual with a V8) is a car that F/L/M NEED right now. There is NOTHING going on with Ford except the Mustang.

And while they're at it, How about a Cougar XR7?

rockylee

ROTFLMAO.......I'd love to see it. If its quality is a joke like the mustangs it will be thrashed and trashed. The only reason why the Mustang is given a free pass is because it has a retro style that many older americans fell in love with all over again. If it would of been called anything else but Mustang the car would of been destroyed by the media as it should be. The mustang is still a faux satin nickel plasticky fantasy. If they add 2 more doors to the current mustang chalk up a victory for the Holden Grand Prix, since it will have a decent quality.

Rocky

P.S. Do you really think such a car will be able to out-hype the 09-10' RWD Chevy Impala :P It's going to be "I'm a balla, shock collar, 20-inch blades on the Impala" :P

displacedtexan

The problem is it will fail miserably just like Charger.

You're sticking a fork in it before it's even done - have some optimism that they'll do it right and give them a chance!

douglasr

Automotive News did a good job of smoking out Ford Motor...getting them to deny that they plan to expand the range. But there is no mistaking the "Mustang Fever" to company seems to have, especially given the Guiargio bronze show car with swing doors displayed in Detroit. (Q: how do you get out if the battery goes dead? Is there a manual overide??) Yet another instance of Mustang/truck predominance within the Blue Oval. Nothing wrong with that per se, but where is the rest of the product line?

They deny using Mustang for a Lincoln varient because of the live rear axle. But a Mark XVIIII convertible based off the T-Bird would have been fine, thank you. (Ohh, I forgot, they never made the engine bay wide enough to fit a larger V8! But the last version of the T-Bird went just fine...) OK...so what else is Ford to do if they don't want to spend the money or have enough time to bring forth a new platform? Australia it is...or elsewhere in the Ford Empire.

That Mr. Horbury is going to unveil anything at all for Lincoln next January 3 in Detroit is nothing short of a miracle given Mr. Ford's "non consideration" that Lincoln will play any significant role at Ford a decade from now. (It must be far worse for someone assigned to design anything for Mercury!!) For the moment, Ford needs to put the lights back on at Lincoln. With Mercury following after that....

...otherwise, Bill Ford Jr. should notice that VWAG could not survive as a "one brand" company of products, and branched out. Now Audi threatens to take away much of their future market, especially in Europe, with an effective doubling of capacity through the next five years (Mr. Winterkorn hopes, but he has $14Bn behind him at Audi to make that happen.) Just as VW uprated its entire range of cars in the last decade, that is what Lincoln and Mercury must do...far beyond customer expectation.

In one respect there is a glimmer of hope in that Ford Motor is the leading corporation in America in terms of capital expenditures of Research & Development, spending above 8% against revenues. That is what Dr. Piech did at VWAG to salvage the company in the 1980's and 1990's. That is also what Porsche AG did to bring the firm back from bankruptcy in 1992---and now Porsche AG will end up owning much of VW (now roughly 45%) through the tremendous profits that they have accrued over the last 15 years. Mr. Mulally could take a page from Mr. Weideking's playbook: with an American twist, of course.

But if Mr. Horbury is ever to get Mr. Ford behind the wheel of a Lincoln, then he must remake the brand into something truly exciting far apart from what is offered at BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Lexus or even Jaguar. When you open the door on a new Lincoln it has to be inviting enough to WANT to get in---even before you turn the key. Hopefully MR. Mulally IS driving a Lincoln. Someone has to---at Ford Motor.

DouglasR

(Sources: WSJ, FT, Automotive News, Car Design News, Edmunds Inside Line.)

heyjewel

Interesting and timely little article in the Detroit News today:

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061218/OPINION03/612180301/1- 148/AUTO01

jae5

You wrote this based on what happened where I used to work, didn't you.

jae5

I agree. I would like to see another RWD Cougar coupe, similar to the 67 - 69 model. But not the larger early 70s and DEFINITELY NOT the barges from the mid-70s.

I would also like to see a return of a Mark coupe, particularly an LSC like the Mark VIIs with the 5.0 HO. Talk about a luxo-sleeper!! If nothing else it would fit inline with the other MK names.

heyjewel

"I would also like to see a return of a Mark coupe, particularly an LSC like the Mark VIIs with the 5.0 HO. Talk about a luxo-sleeper!! If nothing else it would fit inline with the other MK names."

Yeah, they could call it the MKM :>(

And yeah, a Cougar like the 67-69 or 70 is exactly what I have in mind. Leave the 4 door for the Lincoln version.

And isn't it interesting that, having cancelled the LS, they are now scrambling to show a 'concept' which is based on the car that was (partially) based on the LS? Actually, interesting is not the right word. STOOPID is the right word. Why not have some GD CONTINUITY in the product line? Ah, I give up.

euphonium

The 4 door Mustang/Lincoln will be manufactured in China!

It's badge will denote it to be a "Ling Tang"

heyjewel

I hope you're making the first sentence up. Natch, if true, I would never buy it.

AS for the second, wouldn't it be an MKLT? Or how about the MKCC for Ching Chong, ala Rosie O'Dumbell?

jae5

You said it. I really did like the LS. It was a good piece, spent some time in on. At the time I thought, finally FOMOCO is giving Lincoln a good product that can compete with the luxo-marks, i.e. BMW, Lexus, Infiniti, MB. I was also hoping that they were going to stay on top of it, make improvements, even a hot-rod version. And maybe it was a start to a product revival...

Alas, we all know what happened to that. :sick:
Maybe if it was a truck it would've been handled differently?

nvbanker

The mustang is still a faux satin nickel plasticky fantasy. If they add 2 more doors to the current mustang chalk up a victory for the Holden Grand Prix, since it will have a decent quality.

You're wrong, Rocky. The Mustang has had an excellent reliability record, and initial quality reports as well. You may find it plasticy inside, as do I, but put their plastic up against any other car in the price range - and you'll find the Mustang plastic at least fits together, as does the car hold together.

Nothing against the Holden - just defending the Stang - about the only car Ford has going for them - ok, maybe the Fusion is better than the Malibu too.

rockylee

I agree the Mustang is the only thing Ford has going for them. However that isn't sayin' much is it ?

Rocky

[Deleted User]

It almost seems as if you are ready to admit that the MKS is banal--derivative, not bold. Still, I agree it is a start toward real change. I just wish they had used the opportunity to make something HOT, not careful and mainstream...but even so, mainstream is better than the hoary old Town Car.

rockylee

gregg, remember I was speaking about the brand Ford. Lincoln has some nice rides in its
stable. (MKS, MKZ, Navigator)

Rocky

m1miata

Lincoln = Ford + bling-bling $$$ / Reality = Mercury as a best buy.

As for the Mustang, the 2004 GT may be a good buy for its simplicity and low cost of continued service. May be a good toy to keep for some years to come. The true relic of a different age and not a replica car, this car has an engine which rumbles, good ol' cable throttle, and well let's just say it is simple. And, IMHO, not a bad looking rendering of a Pony car.
-Loren

grbeck

The Mustang was considerably cheaper than the GTO. The GTO had a higher quality interior - which it should, considering the price differential - but I've never read where it had better mechanical reliability.

And the car was a flop. The local Pontiac-GMC dealer still has one on the lot among the NEW cars. No one wants it.

m1miata

Not so sure about the reliability of the New Stang. Suspension and transmission noise and in some cars you can't fill them with gas. As you know, being able to fuel the car is important. The throttle-by-wire has some hesitation to it, but there are after market software upgrades. And according to Consumers Guide, the repair costs are going to be high - much more so than a pre- '05. Possible that they got it wrong. The car is a bit more sophisticated than is the old fox body, so I would imagine repairs and parts to be higher. And new tooling costs have to be recovered. My guess is that the most reliable of the New Stangs is gonna be the latest model of same. Kinda a no-brainer there, as the first two years are normally street testing done by the new owners. Overall, the car has for most owners been reliable. If you read the boards here, of course, some have had nightmare sized problems. At which point it comes down to trusting Ford to do the right thing. I have never been to the point of having a car bought back, so I have no comment on Ford or other manufactures in that respect.
-Loren