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The debate over the "premium"
continues as readers weigh in at this article.
"This is an important generation for the future of hybrid vehicles," says Dan Benjamin, principal analyst for ABI Research's transportation practice. "With these models - as well as the Ford Escape and the Honda Accord -- we're starting to see hybrid versions of mainstream vehicles. The auto makers are giving customers a direct choice: to opt for hybrid technology on a given model, or not. Will they pay the premium for the hybrid technology when everything else about the vehicle is the same?"
http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2006/jan/1280501.htm
As hybrids get older and require repair, mechanics will be trained to repair them.
PRIUS......5.2L/100km 54mpg
JETTA TDI..6.8L/100km the only car using a 5MT
FORD ESCAPE Hybrid..7.5L/100km
2.4L CAMRY..8.9L/100km Auto
ACCORD Hybrid..9.1L/100km
FORD ESCAPE..10.7L/100km Auto
ACCORD V6..12.0L/100km Auto
Of course the PRIUS engine is only 1.5L and is the smallest engine of the cars here.
Hybridisation for Accords and Escapes seems to trim
3L/100km. Could we expect 5.9L/100km for the Hybrid Camry ?
Because of a bridge closing the route was altered and it took a total of 6.5 hours to complete the amended 200km course.
So much for needing 255hp cars when the average speed for this organised tour ended up at around 20mph.
I think we need better roads more than we need better cars.
Fuel cost differences between the best and worst here amount to $1400 for 20k km/year driving. ( $1 /litre gas )
Other things to note
One of the Accords' trip odometer read 207km even though the vehicles were always in sight of each other !
This discrepancy will be investigated by Honda service personnel in conjunction with a team from NASA's Gravity Probe "B" - people who have skills relating to perceived relativity.
Then a Ford Escape nearly became a Ford Escapee when the driver inadvertantly locked the keys inside during a changeover. The equivalent of the AAA were called and it was nice to see that a wire coat hanger in professional hands is still a useful automotive tool with a Ford product.
Finally the Jetta survived with no electrical problems showing that although VW may not worry about diesel particulates at least their car horns still give a hoot.
T2
JETTA TDI..6.8L/100km
According to my conversion table the Prius got 45.2 MPG US. That is 25% below EPA city rating. As a comparison the Jetta got 34.5 MPG US. Which is only 4% off of the EPA city rating. I assume this was a city test averaging 20 MPH, That is supposed to be the strong hold of the Hybrids. I would like to see the test driven at 55-70 MPH on highway test. I would imagine the Jetta would do better than the Prius.
Regardless of what the EPA numbers are, and you know the weak points of their testing, this drive and video is indicative of which performs best in varied ( combined driving ).
Combined driving = 20mph average? Only with a positive Toyota Hybrid salesman spin on it. Or did you mean "combined" city/urban? Sounds like a highway test is in order to balance these results.
Run that by me again please. Combined driving is a mixture of city and highway driving which is what most people do. Where did 20 mph come from?
There's no spin, although you seem to want it to be that way. The video speaks for itself and the conclusion is what it is.
toyolla. posted this observation with his statistics on the convoy. It was obvious the test was meant to make the hybrids shine. Why else do it in a place that limits speed to 90 KMH? How is this test any better than the Prius and Jetta from Detroit to DC? I believe that would be a better combined mileage test. Any highway test that does not include 70-75 MPH is not realistic for most of the drivers in the USA.
The Detroit to DC test was a good one also with one fault. They didnt drive the vehicles in parallel with multiple drivers. If both vehicle had been driven from Detroit to DC and back, changing drivers every two hours then I'd give it a little more weight.
For 20 yrs I commuted into NYC from No. Jersey ~30 mi. Min time was 75 min (24 mph avg) up to 3+ hrs ( 10 mph avg ) depending on traffic. Nearly all of it was on 4 and 5 lane highways ( I80, I95, Rte 3, GW bridge and West Side Hwy ).
It's the same in Boston or the Beltway around DC or I95 through Baltimore or the Dan Ryan out of Chicago, etc. It's pretty typical of heavy traffic driving in and around any major city.
My commute now is like yours, 75 miles one way in about 80 min on a rural 4 lane highway at abt 62 mph. The Prius is now getting 48-49 mpg cruising at ~60 mph. Since the video approximates my own results then it seems valid to me.
New designs for hybrids are actually starting to appeal to my eyes.
I am excited to see the new Camry. IMO the Prius wears the crown for the ugliest car.
The picture does not look any different from the 07 non-hyrbid Camry. In other words you dont like design differentiation between hybrids and non-hybrids. And I do agree with you.
I like low profile technology that stays hidden under the hood than having the technology advertized to others with design differentiation.
'Yota putting a lot of confidence in the TCH and Lexus offerings for 2006, eh?
Hybrids Dominate Vincentric’s Best Value in America Awards
BLOOMFIELD HILLS, Michigan – January 17, 2006 – Vincentric’s Best Value in America™ awards were announced today, with hybrid vehicles leading the way. The Toyota Prius, along with the hybrid versions of the Ford Escape, the Honda Civic, and the Toyota Highlander each won the Best Value in America™ award in their segment. Other hybrids receiving Excellent Value ratings are the Mercury Mariner hybrid, the Lexus RX 400h, and the Honda Insight.
To determine Vincentric’s Best Value in America™, Vincentric analyzed over 1,800 different vehicle configurations and computed the cost to own and operate each vehicle. Eight different cost factors were calculated to determine overall Cost of Ownership: depreciation, fuel, insurance, opportunity cost, financing, maintenance, taxes and state fees, and repairs.
Using a statistical model, the company identified the Best Value in America™ by measuring which vehicles have a lower than expected ownership cost given their market segment and price. The strong value of hybrids was clear when both a hybrid and non-hybrid version of the same vehicle were compared to other vehicles in the same segments. In those instances, the hybrid version had ownership costs that averaged 16.2% lower than a similarly priced competitor, while the non-hybrid version had ownership costs 7.9% lower.
“Hybrids benefited from three main factors”, stated David Wurster, President of Vincentric. “First was their strong fuel economy ratings, resulting in lower fuel costs for these vehicles. Second was their strong residual values due to high demand, resulting in lower depreciation costs. And third was the federal tax credit that went into effect this year. This combination of factors creates extremely strong value for consumers.”
These guys insist they are going to biuld and sell this car:
"We're very serious about this. We're going to produce and sell these cars," says Fambro. "We've got a perfectly timed, market busting product. We have a great team of world class engineers and designers, high-powered marketing and sales experience, and a solid business plan."
I stopped in and sat in a new HCH today. It had better headroom than the Accord Hybrid. It was already sold or the salesman at Poway Honda would have let me try it out. Price $2000 over MSRP. They are selling about one per week. There was a 2006 Jetta parked in front of the office. I asked if they had taken it in trade. The answer killed me. It belongs to the General Manager. I told him he should park it in back. He agreed and said you don't tell the GM where to park. I am still laughing.
Honda Wins Canadian Award for Alternative Power
Honda Civic Hybrid Awarded 'Best New Alternative Power'
By Automobile Journalists Association of Canada
MONTREAL, Jan. 19 /CNW/ - Honda's advanced technology leadership in the area of fuel efficiency and low-emission vehicles was recognized by the Automobile Journalists Association of Canada (AJAC) with the Honda Civic Hybrid being named the "Best New Alternative Power" vehicle for 2006.
"The new Civic Hybrid provides Canadians the ultimate in efficient technology with improved performance while providing outstanding fuel efficiency and very low emissions at an affordable price," said Jim Miller, executive vice president, Honda Canada, Inc. "With the current high gasoline prices in Canada, hybrid technology is providing Canadians a viable alternative without having to sacrifice power, features or affordability."
Interesting that all the new hybrids look "normal," given that the most successful hybrid has been a hybrid that looks odd (Prius).
One of the key reasons for lack of movement was the HCH looked like any other Civic. ehh.
However we have entered a new phase.. the TCH. See the new thread just started. The Prius may have accomplished it's mission.
It is. Refer to the FreedomCAR study to see that their objective MPG data reveals Prius is more efficient. Then note how the system is more power, even compared to the new Civic-Hybrid.
But the big deal is how Prius supports electric augmentation, as a few owners have already taken advantage of. Being able to utilize electricity more as the battery (or fuel-cell) technology advances is the key. Assist hybrids simply aren't intended to do that; their design is for the motor to assist the engine rather than completely take over for it at times.
JOHN
Is it the looks?
the technology?
what is it?
I don't think it is the looks, but I dunno. We'd all be guessing.
I do not dislike the design of the Prius because it is a hybrid. The Prius is so ugly that dogs wont chase it unless a steak is tied to it's bumper!
I like the design of the current Mustang, 1970's Porsche 911's, Industrial Art design of the current Cadillac's, Ferrari 348, pre-Bangle BMW's, 1974 Ford Bronco, Lexus IS 250, Dodge Magnum .........
I like low profile technology that stays hidden under the hood than having the technology advertized to others with design differentiation.
Often, I share your taste in "low profile". At this very moment the vehicle that immediately comes to my mind of "low profile" is the Subaru Forester 2.5 XT. Very, very fast and it is nearly INVISIBLE. Cerainly not a beautiful design, however, it is not offensive.
The problem presented with the new Camry is it's size. It is a bit too large.
Prius HSD powertrain in a Euro Corolla 5 door, now that would be FANTASTIC.
The government has decided to purchase 418 hybrid automobiles this year to promote a low-emission and fuel-efficient vehicle.
The Ministry of Environment said Monday it would provide a 28 million won ($28,000) subsidy for each government-purchased car to encourage state agencies and local governments to use environmentally-friendly vehicles.
In 2004, the government purchased 50 Click hybrids manufactured by Hyundai Motor, the country¡¯s largest automaker.
The government also purchased and operated 312 Hyundai Motor¡¯s Verna and Kia Motors¡¯ Pride hybrid models last year.
The ministry plans to purchase a total 3,808 hybrid cars over the next three years; 1,195 in 2007 and 2,195 in 2008.
http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/nation/200601/kt2006011619000811990.htm
Although I myself am buying a hybrid Camry, I think the way Toyota is advertizing hybrids is quite insulting to anyones' intelligence.
Advertizing Hybrid Hype
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/12/hyundai_unveils.php
Consider also that the gas mileage of the Honda Fit will not be better than that of the larger Civic, and the gas mileage of the Toyota Yaris will not be better than that of the larger Corolla. So Hyundai is not alone in this situation.
Also the hybrid Accent should sell well if priced lower to the current competition. I think the first mainstream hybrid will be a hybrid Corolla, but only if it is priced at a reasonable level.
About 58 percent of hybrid drivers say they aren't happy with their fuel economy (compared with 27 percent of conventional vehicle drivers), according to CNW Marketing Research in Bandon, Oregon.
Is the author biased? Yes.
The federal government subsidizes hybrid fashion statements with tax breaks that benefit the rich. The average household income of a Civic hybrid owner ranges between $65,000 to $85,000 a year; it's more than $100,000 for the owner of an Accord. The median income of a Toyota Prius owner is $92,000; for a Highlander SUV owner $121,000; and for a luxury Lexus SUV owner it's over $200,000
Tax subsidies for the rich :mad: I fit into the tax bracket and I certainly am not "rich",however, even I agree that I should not receive a tax break to buy a car.
While the facts are generally correct ( with some significant errors - the USA Today 'test' for example), it does point out several very valid points such as the way Anericans drive normally. However the point of the article, to drive a wedge between the liberal ( not always ) weenie, greeny rich and the average Joe blue collar, is in error. It is actually the average Joe who will benefit the most. The AMT cancels the right to the break for most 'rich welfare recipients'. But this he ignores. Hey if you have an axe to grind why let all the facts get in the way. Just choose the ones you like.
Is the author biased? Yes.
Read the article and thorougly looked for the author's bias and could not find any bias.
The author based his arguments on facts!What do you mean the author is biased?
that isn't the case with the average car owner
I figured the author's bias was apparent from the fact that he writes for a Detroit newspaper. Unlikely to find objective reporting of the car industry out of Detroit.
I do not have inflated expectations and know that even with slow and non-agressive driving I may only achieve 70 percent of EPA figures! Hopefully I will be pleasantly surprised with higher MPG figures, but I am not going to delude myself with such hopes until my own MPG results confirms good mileage.
JUST A FEW YEARS AGO, liberals criticized the Bush administration for allowing professionals to get tax breaks on large SUVs if they were purchased for business purposes. But evidently it's okay to subsidize under-performing hybrids
Who cares what the liberals did a year or two ago. This writer may have an opinion on the hybrid technology pro or con but if the President and Congress decides that limiting fuel consumption is a good thing for the country why make it a political issue. It's not it's a benefit for the nation, conservative, liberal, who cares it benefits everyone.
besides, many people thought the SUV tax break was a stupid one, not just "liberals"
but calling out "liberals" that way certainly reveals a bias
So the owners who cannot get that kind of mileage:
1. Don't care to learn enough about their car to get the most out of it, OR
2. Drive exclusively 70-80 MPH as their daily commute and never should have bought a hybrid under those conditions.
Anyone who WANTS TO can get EPA out of their Hybrid. I'm tired of all the whiners and complainers who don't want to put in the EFFORT.
Term of the day:
Vehicular Laziness.
Mexico to test hybrid cars in the capital
El Universal
January 24, 2006
Honda Mexico S.A. signed an agreement with the government Monday for a trial run of 500 Civic hybrid sedans, picking one of the world´s most polluted metropolises - Mexico City - to test its fuel efficiency.
Environment Secretary José Luis Luege said he wants to promote the use of hybrids nationwide, but first authorities will test-drive the cars themselves.
I have to take exception to that statement. You have more than advocated people buying a hybrid for high speed travel. You have praised CA & VA for encouraging hybrid purchases by allowing them into the HOV lanes while solo driving. If they are nothing else the HOV lanes ARE high speed lanes. You will be tailgated on any of them in So. CA if you are driving slower than 70-75 MPH. They are there to get people to work quicker. Hopefully with several co-workers, not bogged down by a bunch of hybrid drivers trying to get 90 MPG from their car.