Midsize Sedans 2.0

Michaell · September 2016

roadburner said:
The iM has the Mazda2 platform.

I thought the iA was the Mazda 2; the iM is the Corolla hatch sold in other parts of the world.

iluvmysephia1 · September 2016

The iM has the Mazda2 platform.
I knew that.

stickguy · September 2016

Whichever the small sedan Mazda clone is, is a 2. Yeah, the other is a newer version of the matrix basically.

iluvmysephia1 · September 2016

Upon closer research, the Scion iM is underpinned by the Scion tC's chassis and the Scion iA is plopped on top of the Mazda 2's chassis.

http://www.motorweek.org/reviews/road_tests/2016-scion-ia-im

explorerx4 · September 2016

I see the autonews article about mid size sedans shrinking market share was already posted. Some of the comments were on target. They are not as practical as they used to be due to the greenhouse styling.

nyccarguy · September 2016

Many mid sized sedan buyers are choosing SUVs and crossovers (I despise that word BTW) for their easier ingress & egress. Both my parents (68 & 70) drive SUVs, both my in-laws (mid 60s) drive an Escape & a Flex. It's the way the automotive world is moving to. Baby boomers are a huge driver (no pun intended) of the automotive economy.

berri · September 2016

Maybe the seemingly rapid price escalation of crossovers will send more buyers back to the cars down the road? Of course all it will really take is another energy crisis somewhere. Perhaps the environmental and possible geological tremor issues, along with the possibility of quickly diminished returns, will flame out fracking in a few years. Then again, the crossovers are getting better mileage and alternative power assist options.

brian125 · September 2016

Here we go again. with Airbag problems. GM needs to recall 4 MIL VEHICLES.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/gm-recalls-43-million-vehicles-over-defect-related-to-air-bags/ar-AAiHxdf?ocid=UE07DHP

[Deleted User] · September 2016

stickguy said:
yours is the prior platform, right? I have the revised one that underpins the latest Kia.ANS: I get what you are saying. The later models had more and better welds and probably more robots to accomplish this. Do you ever think that they play rock em sock em robot boxing during shift change??? These questions and others burn deep inside me.

you got the base motor or the turbo? Not sure I ever got that straight. ANS: 2.4 non Turbo

I first was looking at a leftover 2014 Sonata 2.0t limited, but just liked the new style (especially the interior) better.

I have the 2.4 liter, GDI Non turbo. Back in December 2011 When I bought my 2012, I didn't fully trust Hyundai-Kia and especially didn't trust a turbo whose plumbing would get literally red hot and cold and hot
and cold.
Now, I know the entire engine in most any car gets hot and cold, but not 900F. So, no I do NOT have the turbo. If I was going to buy a Turbo I would want the 274 HP version for the pure power of it, but sure enough Kia put a lot of new engines or Turbo's (minimum) in a lot of cars with guys at the helm like me.' I can't drive........... 55'!

Oh, I FINALLY found out the "G"in GDI was for "Gasoline" Direct Injection. DUHHH.

Ok, I am in the process of upgrading my headlights. After months of going back and forth and back and forth on whether to upgrade to an HID conversion "kit" or just high power PIAA Xenon/Halogen bright super white (4011 model I think). They are sold as singles or pairs and since I get rewards on my Amazon Visa I got a pair of bulbs sold for roughly $75 everywhere for $63 including free 2 day Prime shipping.

I narrowed it down to the Sylverstar XPS Ultra White and the PIAA. Both sold $75 everywhere within reason. I have already bought 80 watt 16 LED fog light bulbs, but I am not putting them in until I can install the whole drivers side headlight lens assembly which is damaged due to my trying to "customize" the headlights by covering them with a Lamin-X blue color which looked great in the fog lights but VERY boy racer in the headlights.The goo/glue that holds the covers on would not come off so I used Goof-Off. BAD IDEA.Goof Off thinks my clear plastic is "Goof", and therefore turned about 2 silver dollars worth into opaque mess.

So, it is cooling into the mid 80's Monday and I am going to install all this gear (I have to drop the bumper to get the last 2 bolts off the drivers side headlight assembly).

So, I can't wait to show you guys the improvements. Many of our mid sizers take the same bulbs, just with different connection construction, Please wish me luck -Chris

BTW, I think the 2015-2016 Optima has an ugly front end...it's like it is trying to keep up with Camry. NO NO NO Kia. Be better than Camry. I probably would feel better if I was considering buying one, but with only 245 HP Kia kinda killed the fun. They should never have dropped the HP that much, they should have improved on the design, and made it more robust.

[Deleted User] · September 2016

ab348 said:
Yeah, Ford did what domestic automakers always did back then. They cheapened up the top-line model and created a new one, in this case the LTD Brougham, above it with pretty much the same level of trim the older model used to have. By '72 or so the regular LTD interior looked like a Galaxie of 5 years earlier.

A friend of mine who failed english in 10th grade (how do you fail ENGLISH??? You SPEAK ENGLISH!!!!!) had a Cadillac Deville Brougham. He pronounced it his Devil Bro-Ham. He really thought it was pronounced that way; and we wonder why the Chinese are catching up dangerously close.(later it was found that my buddy ad a severe hearing problem).
OFF TOPIC: Did you guys hear about the Chinese Imaging Physicist and Specialist that just took off to China after working for NASA out of the University of Ohio and having full access to all our restricted technology???? His wife tried to clean out his office, left untouched (he was under investigation says NASA...But what else would they say? Were idiots?). now China has announced a Rover mission to Mars on the exact same time Window in 2020. She tried to take all his hard drives, thumb drives, phone, etc, but all he needed was in his head. He sent NASA a short E-Mail saying he needed a leave of absence to look after his aging parents. Then 6 days later resigned. Turns out he was on the board of directors at firm in China. The whole thing is [non-permissible content removed]!

[Deleted User] · September 2016

abe348 said:

Yeah, Ford did what domestic automakers always did back then. They cheapened up the top-line model and created a new one, in this case the LTD Brougham, above it with pretty much the same level of trim the older model used to have. By '72 or so the regular LTD interior looked like a Galaxie of 5 years earlier.

You know, back then all the domestic interiors looked the same. I remember lots of Green vinyl/pleather with brown checkered inserts and with fake wood sides on the Wagon models. UGHHHH.

[Deleted User] · September 2016

benjaminh said:

roadburner said:
I've visited that dealer; the NCM got under my wife's skin and she is now hesitant to even consider a Mini- especially in light of the recent long term tests that don't exactly instill confidence in the car's long-term reliability
Aren't BMWs known for above-average reliability? That's something that puzzles me about Mini as a brand—that it doesn't seem to have the same reliability as the parent company. In the first few years that BMW owned Mini it could be said that they were working out the kinks, but it's been 20 years now....

I always heard that BMW means "Big Motor Worries". Part of the refined sound and powerful output combined with low weight and 50/50 balance makes them drive like no other. I had a dying 1979 BMW 320, and even with just a 4 cyl, it was the most pleasurable car I can remember driving. No oversteer, no understeer...just vundersteer that was Vunderful!!! I got it for free, sold for $1000. Total investment? Zilch!

[Deleted User] · September 2016

benjaminh said:

suydam said:
They're dying because they are no longer midsize cars! They've all gotten way too big.
Notice this from the same article:
"Meanwhile, sales of compact and smaller cars fell just 3.6 percent last month, in line with the industry's overall decline of 3.5 percent, showing that the market's shift away from sedans isn't across the board. Some high-volume small cars, including the Chevrolet Cruze and Honda Civic, posted gains in August."
As we've mentioned here, the 2016 Civic is now almost exactly the size of an Accord from 20 years ago.

And meanwhile, by 2008 the Accord had grown to be almost as large as my 1988 Oldsmobile 98. The latest generation Accord is about 3 inches smaller that the previous one, but there's some speculation that the all-new Accord for 2018 might get larger again. After all, now that the Civic is so roomy some might wonder why they step up to an Accord.

For good or ill, that's my guess. The next Accord will move into the EPA "full size" category—and it will have Olds 98-like legroom and headroom. The Hyundai Sonata is, I think, already there.

All Honda has to do for 2018 is plaster 3"more fake plasti-chrome all over the trunk (to match what they did to the front) and whalla....back to last years dimensions. I do NOT like the new Accords mid-model year face life. There was something pure and honest about the 13-15 models. I wanted the Sport bad. Now....not so much.

I am still getting a Mustang. Just delayed for the time being. (to save up a down payment).

[Deleted User] · September 2016

brian125 said:
m6user

Interesting reviews on the Chrysler 300. Resale and reliability are probably still poor to average. I remember sitting in one 2 years ago . Didn't like how low you felt inside.

Small sedans have gotten bigger inside due to popularity and gas prices .There's No way I consider a Civic , Corolla, Sentra , Elantra, etc a midsizer.

My eye caught a 2016 lime green Challenger today. Very sharp looking. I Like the looks of the Challenger much better than the Charger, But if were talking speed, luxury, and comfort the Audi S6 is my girl.

C/D editor in Chief said that no matter how much money he made, he would have an Audi S6 in the Garage. I still love the S5, but it is wayyyy overdue for a complete overhaul.

[Deleted User] · September 2016

brian125 said:
300 , Taurus , Charger,

I would consider the 707 h/p Hellcat out of that group. Not the ghetto cruiser , or unmarked Cop car.

LOL. I think the Hellcat needs AWD to get that power to the ground. Otherwise, spin city!!!! (In kind of a good way).

brian125 · September 2016

cski

Iv'e had good luck over the years with my Bmw's.

2008 X-5, 2012 X-5, and now 2016 X-5 ( best one yet ) . I also had a new 1987 735i, 1990 750iL, and 1995 750iL and 2000 750iL.

My 1990 BMW was a problematic year for the 7 series. Again nothing major in my 4 yrs of owning it.

suydam · September 2016

cski said:

ab348 said:
Yeah, Ford did what domestic automakers always did back then. They cheapened up the top-line model and created a new one, in this case the LTD Brougham, above it with pretty much the same level of trim the older model used to have. By '72 or so the regular LTD interior looked like a Galaxie of 5 years earlier.
A friend of mine who failed english in 10th grade (how do you fail ENGLISH??? You SPEAK ENGLISH!!!!!) had a Cadillac Deville Brougham. He pronounced it his Devil Bro-Ham. He really thought it was pronounced that way; and we wonder why the Chinese are catching up dangerously close.(later it was found that my buddy ad a severe hearing problem).
OFF TOPIC: Did you guys hear about the Chinese Imaging Physicist and Specialist that just took off to China after working for NASA out of the University of Ohio and having full access to all our restricted technology???? His wife tried to clean out his office, left untouched (he was under investigation says NASA...But what else would they say? Were idiots?). now China has announced a Rover mission to Mars on the exact same time Window in 2020. She tried to take all his hard drives, thumb drives, phone, etc, but all he needed was in his head. He sent NASA a short E-Mail saying he needed a leave of absence to look after his aging parents. Then 6 days later resigned. Turns out he was on the board of directors at firm in China. The whole thing is [non-permissible content removed]!

That turned out to be a false charge. See this article in the NY Times.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/12/us/politics/us-drops-charges-that-professor-shared-technology-with-china.html?smprod=nytcore-ipad&smid=nytcore-ipad-share

brian125 · September 2016

cski said:

brian125 said:
300 , Taurus , Charger,

I would consider the 707 h/p Hellcat out of that group. Not the ghetto cruiser , or unmarked Cop car.
LOL. I think the Hellcat needs AWD to get that power to the ground. Otherwise, spin city!!!! (In kind of a good way).

0 to 60 in 4.1 sec. Spin the tires you will still be under 4.5 sec.

The American airlines 767 jet I just got off today didn't get down the runway that fast.

berri · September 2016

Turbojets have to spool up. But it will probably beat you in the quarter, or at least half mile, and the mile for sure

If you feel you want a challenge like that, take on the 757 - narrowbody with widebody engines. It is a hotrod.

berri · September 2016

He really thought it was pronounced that way

cski - I recall back around my sophomore year in high school, one of the greasers in my world history class mispronounced Nigeria. The teacher was quite a liberal and really went off on him. THEN most of the class caught on

akirby · September 2016

cski said:
and whalla...).

while we're on the subject of mispronouncing words, how about misspelling voila......

andres3 · September 2016

Has anyone here driven the new '17 A4? That is one heck of a car.

stickguy · September 2016

sat in it. nice insides, but feels huge compared to the prior model. I would have guessed it was an A6.

nyccarguy · September 2016

stickguy said:
sat in it. nice insides, but feels huge compared to the prior model. I would have guessed it was an A6.

Not only that, but it looks terrible of you don't get it equipped how they show it in the commercials.

andres3 · September 2016

Hmmm... for sure the one I had as a loaner was a top of the line sticker approaching $50K model.

benjaminh · September 2016

cski said:

benjaminh said:

suydam said:
They're dying because they are no longer midsize cars! They've all gotten way too big.
Notice this from the same article:
"Meanwhile, sales of compact and smaller cars fell just 3.6 percent last month, in line with the industry's overall decline of 3.5 percent, showing that the market's shift away from sedans isn't across the board. Some high-volume small cars, including the Chevrolet Cruze and Honda Civic, posted gains in August."
As we've mentioned here, the 2016 Civic is now almost exactly the size of an Accord from 20 years ago.

And meanwhile, by 2008 the Accord had grown to be almost as large as my 1988 Oldsmobile 98. The latest generation Accord is about 3 inches smaller that the previous one, but there's some speculation that the all-new Accord for 2018 might get larger again. After all, now that the Civic is so roomy some might wonder why they step up to an Accord.

For good or ill, that's my guess. The next Accord will move into the EPA "full size" category—and it will have Olds 98-like legroom and headroom. The Hyundai Sonata is, I think, already there.
All Honda has to do for 2018 is plaster 3"more fake plasti-chrome all over the trunk (to match what they did to the front) and whalla....back to last years dimensions. I do NOT like the new Accords mid-model year face life. There was something pure and honest about the 13-15 models. I wanted the Sport bad. Now....not so much.

I am still getting a Mustang. Just delayed for the time being. (to save up a down payment).

Well, pretty much every midsize car has plastichrome, including the Optima.

And in my 2016 Accord EX I've gotten as high as 40 mpg on the highway with the AC on going 65-70.

Plus with AndroidAuto I've got google map navigation that is great, as well as the ability to quickly text my wife when needed.

Finally, the Accord has great visibility out the back, while the Optima has massive rear pillars—and equally massive blind spots.

I'll admit that the Optima is a nicer looking car than the Accord at this point. But the Accord still has some advantages.

Of course, if someone gets the new Optima with the 1.6 turbo I think the mpg is even higher than the Accord—and so that advantage would be gone!

Clearly both are good cars. But you wouldn't consider an Accord at this point, and I wouldn't consider a KIA.

andres3 · September 2016

I think the '14 & '15 Accord's are the handsomest in a long time and '16 is a very slight step backwards. The Optima definitely has a high and big rear deck that does block views rearward (and the carpeting shag on the deck is low-grade; annoying to someone used to Audi's). Thank goodness it has a camera to compensate for the lack of rear visibility when parking.

Took a 1/2 tank trip yesterday to the mountains. Climbed 5,000+ feet and back down. Computer says I averaged exactly 32 MPG for the highway trip. There were some stoplights on my route, but for the most part traffic was smooth. I didn't race up the mountain, but I kept up with a Prius that was driving very un-Prius like up the twisty mountain. Skilled driver for sure!

Maybe it is still breaking in as I'm under 1,000 miles still. I hope to do a bit better, but I'm not disappointed until I look at the claimed EPA numbers. In my experience, Honda is one of the best at meeting or beating EPA claims on fuel economy.

Still..... compared to what I'm used to, 32 MPG is very good. Oh, for those that don't know I try to stay well above CA speed limits where possible and safe to do so.

js06gv · September 2016

@cski BTW, I think the 2015-2016 Optima has an ugly front end...it's like it is trying to keep up with Camry. NO NO NO Kia. Be better than Camry. I probably would feel better if I was considering buying one, but with only 245 HP Kia kinda killed the fun. They should never have dropped the HP that much, they should have improved on the design, and made it more robust.

I've got one, the new body style 2016 (the 2015 is a carbon copy of the moderately restyled 2014). The styling is subjective, but my only problem with the front end is the fact that Kia inexplicably dumped the fog lamps for the plastic lower grill looking things. I don't mind the look, but there should be fogs there. The lack of fogs is the same up the line, from LX to SXL. Other than this and maybe a couple of other things, the improvements over my 2014 SX are night and day.

Regarding the power, I too didn't like the concept of a reduction in HP, but I'm honestly hard pressed to notice any discernible difference driving them back to back.

andres3 · September 2016

js06gv said:
@cski BTW, I think the 2015-2016 Optima has an ugly front end...it's like it is trying to keep up with Camry. NO NO NO Kia. Be better than Camry. I probably would feel better if I was considering buying one, but with only 245 HP Kia kinda killed the fun. They should never have dropped the HP that much, they should have improved on the design, and made it more robust.

I've got one, the new body style 2016 (the 2015 is a carbon copy of the moderately restyled 2014). The styling is subjective, but my only problem with the front end is the fact that Kia inexplicably dumped the fog lamps for the plastic lower grill looking things. I don't mind the look, but there should be fogs there. The lack of fogs is the same up the line, from LX to SXL. Other than this and maybe a couple of other things, the improvements over my 2014 SX are night and day.

Regarding the power, I too didn't like the concept of a reduction in HP, but I'm honestly hard pressed to notice any discernible difference driving them back to back.

Sounds like they just stopped blatantly over-rating them for horsepower then. Probably most of what it is, along with some mild de-tuning at the top end of the power and RPM spectrum.

stickguy · September 2016

Hyundai did that intentionally on the big turbo motor. re-tuned it for more flexibility I believe. So less HP at the top end, but more power/torque in the low and mid range where is is usable to most people. so on paper, it might look like a downgrade, but in the real world, it probably wasn't.

ab348 · September 2016

IIRC cars with the "old" turbo engine were never able to post times that were indicative of the numbers claimed. But when they changed the engine the numbers that testers came back with were really terrible at first, barely better than the NA engine. I don't know what they were doing or if it is much different now.

berri · September 2016

The one ding on Hyunkia v Toyonda is depreciation. That may change by the time you trade or sell though.

imidazol97 · September 2016

cski said:
OFF TOPIC: Did you guys hear about the Chinese Imaging Physicist and Specialist that just took off to China after working or for NASA out of the University of Ohio and having full access to all our restricted technology???? His wife tried to clean out his office, left untouched (he was under investigation says NASA...But what else would they say? Were idiots?). now China has announced a Rover mission to Mars on the exact same time Window in 2020. She tried to take all his hard drives, thumb drives, phone, etc, but all he needed was in his head. He sent NASA a short E-Mail saying he needed a leave of absence to look after his aging parents. Then 6 days later resigned. Turns out he was on the board of directors at firm in China. The whole thing is [non-permissible content removed]!

My son predicted this and a lot more. He was a student at The Ohio State University during that time, and he was in touch more than being a physics major because of other activities.

akirby · September 2016

Do they take away your diploma if you just call it Ohio State like everybody who didn't go there?

suydam · September 2016

Turned out to be false charges.

m6user · September 2016

@akirby. Good one. Totally agree.

imidazol97 · September 2016

akirby said:
Do they take away your diploma if you just call it Ohio State like everybody who didn't go there?

They refuse to send you letters asking for donations.

Actually the name is The Ohio State University. "The" is part of the name. There is an Ohio University, a state university in Athens in SE Ohio. There is no University of Ohio. It's somewhat like the sports folks who can't tell the difference between Miami University and University of Miami. So they call Ohio's state school Miami of Ohio. I don't hear them calling University of Miami by the name Miami of Florida.

m6user · September 2016

Sounds like an identity crisis to me.

suydam · September 2016

I think they started calling it THE Ohio State University (it is the official name but didn't appear as such on the university logos until the late '80s) to distinguish it from that OTHER OSU (Oklahoma State). We Ohioans have a bit of an inferiority complex.

imidazol97 · September 2016

What about Oklahoma State University and Oregon State University--all OSU's.

As a Redskin I thought it was to differentiate itself from Ohio University, which is a "state"
university as well.

Mr_Shiftright · September 2016

They now call The Henry Ford Museum "The Henry".

suydam · September 2016

I don't think Ohio State concerns itself with OU much.

js06gv · September 2016

I'm in Texas and my daughter just started at Oklahoma State last month. Around these parts OSU means Oklahoma State and NOBODY confuses that for Ohio!

suydam · September 2016

My point exactly.

akirby · September 2016

Still not as bad as "The U"......

suydam · September 2016

Happy to report that the Buckeyes just beat that other OSU team. Now back to cars!

Mr_Shiftright · September 2016

The Dodge Dart officially dies this month.

The Short Unhappy Life of the Dodge Dart

brian125 · September 2016

RIP................... it wont be missed

berri · September 2016

Looks like the Chrysler 200 funeral is next, about a year away.

roadburner · September 2016

I'm coming around to the view the FCA will sooner or later be unloaded on some other automaker- and that Jeepp-and possibly Ram trucks-will be the only survivors.

Midsize Sedans 2.0

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