Synthetic motor oil

shipo · September 2006

5W-40??? Is that oil certified for the Mini?

Best Regards,
Shipo

bottgers · September 2006

Any response to post #6480?

british_rover · September 2006

Yup Euro Spec 5w40 by Amsoil. The spec number is actually listed right in the owners manual. I think Mobil 1 also makes a 5W40 euro spec oil now.

shipo · September 2006

"Yup Euro Spec 5w40 by Amsoil. The spec number is actually listed right in the owners manual. I think Mobil 1 also makes a 5W40 euro spec oil now."

Hmmm, I think the Mobil 1 that you are referring to is actually their 0W-40. That oil carries many certifications for oil standards, most notably the BMW LL-01 and VW 503.01 certifications. The problem I have with the Amsoil EuroSpec 5W-40 is that it isn't certified to actually meet the individual manufacturer standards, they only claim that it meets the specs. Some folks dismiss this simply as a technicality due to the expense of certification, and happily use Amsoil. For my money though I'll use the certified 0W-40 Mobil 1.

Best Regards,
Shipo

shipo · September 2006

"I recently switched from Havoline dino to M1 EP to extend my drain intervals. I have noticed that the M1 has already turned a darker color at 4K miles than the Havoline got at change time which was 6K miles. Is this normal, and is it something I should expect from now on, or will the M1 stay cleaner longer the longer I use it?"

Hmmm, well I've yet to use Mobil 1 EP in any of my cars, however, given that my Mobil 1 0W-40 is still slightly tranlucent after 10,000 miles of use, I'm a little surprised that yours is dark at 4,000.

Hmmmm (again), I wonder if the Mobil 1 in your engine is cleaning up various sundry dirts, debris and varnishes left behind by your Havoline. I don't think I'd read too much into the color of your oil for at least two or three oil changes. That having been said, the color of any given oil has very little to do with how well it is protecting the engine its in.

FWIW, I know that many folks claim that their engines stay perfectly clean with Havoline and other premium conventional oils, however, based upon the stability issue alone (conventional oils vaporize at a lower temperature than full synthetic oils, and as such cause more varnish) I'd be willing to bet that your new Mobil 1 is just cleaning house a little.

Best Regards,
Shipo

dudleyr · September 2006

The synthetic is cleaning the engine. After a few changes it will stay clear longer.

bottgers · September 2006

Here's a discussion you sorely need to get involved in:

Go to bobistheoilguy.com, click on forums, and then click on the thread titled "Are synthetics really worth the extra bucks?"

There are many in this thread who are claiming just the opposite of some of your claims.

shipo · September 2006

Errr, I cannot get there from here. Broken link?

Best Regards,
Shipo

bottgers · September 2006

....wasn't posting correctly for some reason so I edited my earlier post.

shipo · September 2006

Got it. Thanks. ;-)

Hmmm, I took a look and as per usual the information, misinformation, facts and factoids are flying around like the furball that was the Marianas Turkey Shoot. As a general rule I've decided to bow out of most of the discussions over there as the huge egos and such are just not worth crossing swords with. :P

Best Regards,
Shipo

bottgers · September 2006

...a big heavyweight fight, then finding out the fight was canceled. :sick:

shipo · September 2006

Oh the guilt of it all.

Sorry for letting you down.

Best Regards,
Shipo

Mr_Shiftright · September 2006

As we used to say in the Army "Are you sure this is the hill you want to die on?"

shipo · September 2006

As we used to say in the Army "Are you sure this is the hill you want to die on?"

Pretty funny, in Uncle Sam's Misguided Children we used to say, "Are you sure this is the best hill to make your enemy die on?"

I guess it's all a matter of perspective. ;-)

Semper Fi,
Shipo

bottgers · September 2006

....we'll never know who would've died on that hill. :confuse:

Mr_Shiftright · September 2006

well you all weren't totally spaced out like we were I guess--LOL!

Point is, some battles on the INternet are not worth fighting...I like forums where people are looking for answers, or even willing to change their minds....

beancountant · September 2006

This is a question in using M1 on '02 Accord which uses 5W-20 oil. Since there's no 5W-20 M1, which is the better viscosity to use, 0W-40 or 5W-30?

How safe is it to use any M1 for 10K?
A dealer told me that if you change oil every 3 to 5K, you don't need to use Synthetic Oils, Can you elaborate on the wear protection of Synthetics? Thank You. :lemon:

ruking1 · September 2006

There are both M1 0w20 AND 5w20. I used the factory fill conventional fill as per oem recommendation for the first 10k OCI.

Since that time I have used M1 0w20 and it has been absoluely good to go for 10k oci's. After the warranty period, I will be going to 20k OCI's. Fuel mileage in a daily commute 54 miles R/T has been between 38-42 mpg. This is on one of the most congested freeways in the nation.

imidazol97 · September 2006

From what I've learned by listening, a car using regular oil could benefit from an occasional oil change of synthetic because of its cleaning ability. Keep the interval less than the usual synthetic interval, say 7500 and then go back to regular oil the next oil changes.

I'm thinking about doing this for my cars.

shipo · September 2006

As ruking1 correctly stated, there is indeed a 0W-20 and a 5W-20 Mobil 1, and for my money, the lower the first number the better.

As for what to use in your Accord, I don't really know enough about the engine and why Honda recommends a 20 weight oil to comfortably recommend anything above a 0W-20.

As for that silly comment by your dealer, well, consider the source. I can honestly say that some of the absolute worst advice on automotive maintenance that I've ever heard came from dealership mechanics. So, were I in your shoes I'd buy a bunch of Mobil 1 0W-20, run it for say 10,000 miles, then extract a small sample and send it in for analysis. Assuming all is well I'd extend the OCI to whatever felt comfortable. Once again, ruking1 seems to think that a 20,000 mile OCI is reasonable, and I strongly suspect that oil analysis will support that OCI as well.

Best Regards,
Shipo

shipo · September 2006

Ummm, I really don't understand that logic. Why not give your car the benefit of a good synthetic all of the time? Why beans and franks one month and tenderloin the next?

Best Regards,
Shipo

bottgers · September 2006

I know what you mean. I've been trying to get a definitive answer from anyone in BITOG as to what causes an oil to darken, but all I get is speculation and 100 different answers. There's a lot of useful info in that site, but sometimes it gets tough trying to determine the difference between good and bad info.

bottgers · September 2006

....and I may take some flack for saying it, but I may be losing faith in synthetic oil. Since I switched to M1 EP, I've noticed the oil is already darker at 4500 miles than the Havoline dino I was previously using was at 6K miles, and there's no way the M1 isn't going to be jet black by the end of its OCI at 12K. You can show me all the good UOA's you want, but at the end of the day it all boils down to one thing; I can't stand running black oil in my engine. It's like putting on a pair of dirty underwear after taking a shower. It just don't feel right. I did the UOA's with the Havoline and know that was good out to 6K miles AND it didn't turn black. To me, that may be worth more than any benefit I may be getting by ruuning syn.

shipo · September 2006

The thing is that there is a very high probability that the dirt that you are now seeing in your oil is dirt that was left behind by your Havoline. Said another way, your non-scientific feeling regarding what color your oil should be may cause you to stop using Mobil 1 when its only crime (from your perspective) is to clean up a mess left behind by the very oil you seem to be championing.

If nothing else, give it three oil changes before you make a rash decision.

I posted some pictures of Mobil 1 0W-40 pooled in the rocker arms of our 1998 Dodge Grand Caravan earlier this year. At the time when the picture was taken there was just over 4,000 miles on the oil shown in the picture and as you can see it's pretty darn clear. That of course was oil that has been run in an engine that's seen nothing but Mobil 1 for the previous 90,000 miles, long enough (and then some) to make sure the engine is perfectly clean inside. I'm sure I've directed you to the pictures before, however, now may be a good time to do it again. You can find them at: HTTP://photos.yahoo.com/shipo

Once there, click on the "Caravan Stuff" album and look at the photos of the oil filler hole in the rocker cover. To get the full effect you will need to click on the "Download" button.

Best Regards,
Shipo

bottgers · September 2006

....that the Havoline left nothing behind and it's just characteristic of the M1 to get dark sooner due to differences in its chemical composition. NO ONE in any of the forums I've been in has been able to put forth any proof as to why any given oil gets darker or stays cleaner than another. For all I know, M1 may not be able to handle the inner-engine contaminants as well as the Havoline and that's why the M1 turns dark sooner.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2006

I think color is a very unreliable source of information personally. When I drove a diesel, the new synthetic oil would turn black within 15 minutes and I ran that car hell or high water for months on that black oil. I suspect it takes very little amounts of what might be harmless "stuff" to change the color of oil.

Unless one does a chemical analysis, there is really no scientific basis for presuming that dark-colored oil is any less effective than clear honey-colored oil,IMO.

As a sidenote, I think lots of snake-oil scams use irrelevant visual evidence to sell the junk they sell.

Maybe you should to a chemical analysis to put your mind at ease--or prove that you DO have something to worry about in your particular case---either way.....

shipo · October 2006

"For all I know, M1 may not be able to handle the inner-engine contaminants as well as the Havoline..."

I've gotta tell ya, that is another statement (like judging the quality of an oil based upon its color) that has absolutely no scientific basis. If you want to spend more money and protect your engine less by using Havoline, then that's great. That said, until you've proven your suppositions scientifically (highly unlikely), they are going to fall upon deaf ears around here, mine included.

Best Regards,
Shipo

bottgers · October 2006

...doing a UOA or more is the only thing that's going to cure (or confirm) my dark oil phobia.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2006

Yeah, it's a good idea and I'd certainly be interested in your results.

british_rover · October 2006

Agreed on that. I had dozens of customers use Amsoil Synthetic in their diesel trucks and the fresh oil was just as dark as the used oil within a few minutes of the oil change.

Never had any problems with those diesels and many of them were using amsoil, with 20,000-25,000 mile OCIs, for over 200,000 miles.

chua-san · October 2006

Shipo,

I recently purhcased a 2007 Avalon and right now it has 250 miles. After reading this forum, I would like to change the oil to Mobil 1 syn. Can I change the oil tomorrow or should I wait until the 1st scheduled maintenance?

Meanwhile, I live in NJ and which 0W-## whould you recommend for this vehicle?

I expect to drive about 10,000 mi a year. Do you think it's ok to change oil once a year with M1 syn?

Please let me know what you think and thank you in advance.

Regards,
Chuasan

shipo · October 2006

I am unfamiliar with the engine that Toyota is using in the Avalon and as such I don't know what oils (from a weight perspective) they recommend. So, with that in mind:

- Can you change your oil tomorrow? Yes, however, I don't see any benefit to doing the change prior to the two or three thousand mile mark.

- Living in NJ I think that a 0W-?? oil would serve you well. What are the oils recommended by Toyota?

- Can you change your oil every 10,000 miles? Most probably, however, having your oil analyzed will be the only way to make absolutely sure. That said, I suggest you stick with their recommended OCI while your car is under warranty.

- Changing your oil yearly (assuming the oil isn't exhausted from excessive hours of operation) isn't a problem at all. BMW has retroactively rescinded it's annual synthetic oil change requirement as they've found that it is unnecessary.

Best Regards,
Shipo

Mr_Shiftright · October 2006

I wouldn't put synthetic in an engine with only 250 miles on it---I'd give it to the 5,000 mark. I like to see them broken in a bit more. On my car I kept regular oil in it, and broke the engine in by doing occasional full throttle accleration but only up to 4,000 rpm, then backing off and letting the car decelerate all the way down (if traffic allows). Some find this controversial but I have driven other cars just like mine and mine has more power. I don't believe synthetic would permit this fast a break-in.

ruking1 · October 2006

Just to add to what Shipo has said, it is best to start with the oem recommendations; both in oil viscosity and sometimes oil recommendations and the OCI recommendations.

Unless you REALLY fall into the severe category (most folks do NOT; but self categorize themselves into it) go by the normal OCI.

I personally would start to use synthetic by the first or second OCI (AFTER the first OCI, factory fill) to allow for the early break in action and procedures so necessary for long engine life (barring any manufacturing defects)

chua-san · October 2006

Shipo,

Toyota recommends 5W-30 for 2007 Avalon every 5,000 miles. This thing takes 6.4 quarts of oil per oil change... My cureent G20 only need 3.5 or so...

Thank you and others for giving me advice on this topic. I guess I will switch to syn after the first oil change.

Shipo, so whcih oil will you recommend? 0W or 5W? Thanks again

shipo · October 2006

For the warranty period I'd use Mobil 1 0W-30 and swap it out every 5,000 miles. Once the warranty is up I'd probably change to Mobil 1 0W-40 with a 10,000 mile OCI. Please note, I'd also send in a sample of oil for analysis after that first 10,000 mile interval and again after the third, just to be sure all is well with the oil, engine and OCI interval. FWIW, I suspect that a 10,000 mile OCI will actually prove to be rather conservative.

Best Regards,
Shipo

imidazol97 · October 2006

>For the warranty period I'd use Mobil 1 0W-30 and swap it out every 5,000 miles

Why use synthetic if you're going to use regular oil's OIC values?

>, I suspect that a 10,000 mile OCI will actually prove to be rather conservative.

Why not use longer intervals instead of wasting money and the oil product by changing it out so early and throwing it away?

shipo · October 2006

"Why use synthetic if you're going to use regular oil's OIC values?"

One word: "Warranty"

"Why not use longer intervals instead of wasting money and the oil product by changing it out so early and throwing it away?"

I'm not advocating changing oil before its time; I'm recommending that a 10,000 mile OCI is a good starting point to allow UOA to establish what the correct OCI should be. That said, some folks resist the notion of having UOAs performed and so I'm thinking that 10,000 will be safe without any data to support the notion of a longer OCI. Why only 10,000 miles? Two words immediately come to mind: "Toyota & Sludge"

Best Regards,
Shipo

imidazol97 · October 2006

But in the earlier post you said to change at 5000 mi. If synthetic is really the better choice for many cars based on usage the manufacturers would have recognized that and it would be accepted under the warranty...???? Right?

Then you change the mileage to 10000 miles after the 4 years 48K mi warranty?

shipo · October 2006

"But in the earlier post you said to change at 5000 mi. If synthetic is really the better choice for many cars based on usage the manufacturers would have recognized that and it would be accepted under the warranty...???? Right?"

Some manufacturers do. BMW, Mercedes, Audi and Porsche all recommend OCIs of 10,000 miles or more, sometimes MUCH more. My 530i, which had an oil life monitor (OLM), recommended the first oil change at 13,500 miles (not too surprising given the number of hours it spent over 100 mph while I had it in Europe), however, at the more sedate speeds here in the U.S.A., the OLM didn't recommend the second oil change until nearly 19,000 miles.

The above said, no manufacturer is obligated extend their recommended OCIs just because someone opts to use synthetic oil, and most don't. In the odd instance where an engine which has had a strict diet of synthetic oil and extended OCIs fails within the warranty period, you will be faced with a contest of wills between the science of the situation and the legalistic writings in the manufacturers warranty. It's simply easier/cheaper to comply with the recommended OCI until the end of the warranty. At least that's what I recommend, what I practice is another matter. Personally I'm willing to take the risk and as such, I've habitually used synthetic oil and extended the OCIs on all of my cars (except my BMWs which already have a long OCI).

"Then you change the mileage to 10000 miles after the 4 years 48K mi warranty?"

Yes, that or longer depending upon the results from the UOAs.

Best Regards,
Shipo

ruking1 · October 2006

My take is oem's have been slow to 1. design for longer OCI's 2. do the engineering for existing products 3. do not want to necessarily give up the source of revenue 3k OCI's give vs say 10k oci's. 4. consumer resistance 5. etc.

The truth is for as much as folks have heard oil analysis should be done when so-called "extended" oci's are done, oil analysis should be done for conventional oil both normal and severe OCI's !!!!!! Barring that a good stop gap measure is that 10 dollar (OLM) oil live monitor that is starting to come with some cars. I am willing to bet that close to 99.999% of those using conventional oil do NOT get oil analysis done. There are a myraid of reasons for this of course, but one major one could be "economic".

I truly wish I had a dollar for every time someone said (low) 3,000 mile oil changes are "CHEAP INSURANCE" or some facsimile. Maybe I'd make $400,000,000 per year, like one (famous/in famous) oil company CEO.

While this was a factor in MY selection of a 2004 Honda Civic vs a 2004/2005 Toyota Corolla, again my guess is the OCI consideration for most folks is purely an after thought. I would go on further to say that of those seeing a 10,000 mile OCI for the 2004 Honda Civic, the majority do not believe it nor (where the rubber meets the road) actually do it. Keep in mind the 10,000 mile OCI is with CONVENTIONAL OIL (5w20 to be specific).

Another is the Chevrolet Corvette with up to 15,000 mile OCI's. The factory recommended and fill is 5w30 Mobil One.

Another is the VW Jetta TDI with 10,000 mile OCI's. The factory fill is a 5w40 synthetic (meets VW specifications 500.xxx)

w9cw · October 2006

I may be old-fashioned regarding OCI's, but I'll stick to what has been very successful for me - 3K/3mo oil change intervals. I've never experienced a mechanical engine failure. And, this includes a couple of cars I still currently own which have over 250K on the clock. Oil is cheap - even Mobil 1 - in the grand scheme of things, and as long as it is disposed of correctly (recycling in this case), it's money well spent.

My new car (2006 model) sees servere service usage with a lot of city stop and go driving, and sometimes only 3 to 5 miles from home to work each way daily. I'll stick to my 3K/3mo interval.

ruking1 · October 2006

Please send your dollar in care of ruking.........I will set up to take Paypal, AM EXP, M/C, Visa, checks that do not bounce, cash....

Nothing wrong about being old fashioned. To further the discussion, I can truly say the same about 15,000 mile OCI's and yes with vehicles up to 250,000 miles. I have been doing this (15,000 mile OCI's) for over 20 years. Current ones have 136,000 miles on the clock, and a 11 year old TLC (garage queen) with 73,000 miles).

I run the TDI (diesel with 82,000 miles) with 5w40 Mobil One Truck and SUV (aka Delvac One) with 25,000 OCI's and am very excited about the new ULSD fuel (AKA CLEANER) which will easily allow for 30,000 mile OCI's.

shipo · October 2006

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/

Cost is about $30 for the basic analysis and $40 if you want the TBN analysis.

Best Regards,
Shipo

Mr_Shiftright · October 2006

I would never give a manufacturer a loophole to wiggle out of a warranty claim.

british_rover · October 2006

Nope cause they will do it all day long if they can. Hondas used to have a 7,500 mile OCI for many of their vehicles so at my shop we told people using Amsoil or Mobil 1 to run it to 7,500 miles then change it.

Yes you could go a bit farther on either oil but better not to risk it with a car still in warranty.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2006

Personally if someone ran a new car at say double the recomended oil change frequency, I'd probably deny them the warranty.

british_rover · October 2006

If something failed that was an internaly lubricated part of the engine then exactly right my first instinct would be to deny the claim.

Now if they came back with the Magnesson/Moss act that I had to go and prove the part failed because of too long an oil change interval but that does not happen that often.

ruking1 · October 2006

The upshot no oil; conventional and synthetic is "cook proof". In fact I owned a 1985 Toyota Camry that was a sludge a matic and it saw 2,000 mile OCI's with conventional oil. !!!

Truly there are "sludge a matics"STILL (21 years later) on the market. The oem's who sell them, of course deny they are. The best is to avoid them if at all possible. Next, if you happen to discover AFTER that a particular model is prone to "sludging" during the warranty period, it is up to the buyer/owner to effect monitoring procedures up to and including partial tear down. OEM's of course are perfectly fine if you discover sludging AFTER the warranty period. By that time, it is usually on the owner's/buyer's nickel.

Some models of Toyota's (among others oem's) have been well documented as having a statistical portion of complaints. Some engine warranty claims (documented on some threads on Edmunds.com) have even been denied early in both the warranty period and mileage with the DEALER performing the 3,000 mile OCI's!!!!

w9cw · October 2006

It would be informative if you listed which current cars' engines have a propensity for sludge formation.

Synthetic motor oil

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