Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/25 for details.
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/25 for details.
Options
What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Not everyone thinks NG is all that rosy a fuel either. But we really don't won't to get into methane leakage eh?
Natural gas vehicles worse for climate than diesel ones? (USA Today)
Ain't no free lunch.
Judging by the aftermath of NATURAL and observable volcanic activity (i.e., Mt Saint Helen's, WA or if one needs more consistency reliability and durability, Yellowstone National Park ), it is amazing the enviro cons could not foresee what that article sez !!!! Also it has been LONG known that natural oceans naturally compress naturally forming methane ! The issue comes to the fore when the EARTH FARTS, so to speak. As a matter of fact a lot of undersea volcanic and seismic activity (masquerading as George Bush's fault (line?) ) is responsible for so called unseen, unknown, unexplained "global warming. " But it is truly out of sight out of mind till, ..... it isn't, (Yogi Berra be proud) like a ....Tsunami !!! ???
Another slow news diesel day, there seems to be 8.42 M motorcycles fool.com/investing/general/2014/02/16/50-states-ranked-for-highest-motorcycle-ownership.aspx
or app 3.27% of the passenger vehicle fleet (257.51M). The diesel CAR population is LESS (6.4375M) !
Evidently the GRAPES are not getting the word through the "grape vine"
mercurynews.com/bay-area-living/ci_25156963/californias-having-record-wine-grape-harvest?source=nav
My grape vines are just starting to leaf out. Plum tree covered with blossoms. Hope we don't get a late frost.
Got a lot of blooming snow around here.
In the handy gizmo department:
"The device sits inside the neck of the fuel tank and uses a laser to detect whether diesel or petrol is being filled. A sensor warns the driver against mis-fuelling."
Sensor warns against car mis fueling (nzherald.co.nz)
The dealer has/had asked me if I wanted the diesel hose restricter (or whatever they call it) put in. I thought about it for a good long while and so far haven't scheduled appointments to put them in.
Here we are praying for MORE snow with a base of 3.58 ft . We have gotten 10.25 ft this season, but only the first sentence numbers have stuck.
Trouble in the ( turbo GASSER) smaller 4 cylinder markets?
..."Low dependability has the potential to do more harm than fuel efficient engines do good, too.
J.D. Power says that poor dependability "creates avoidance", with customers more likely to change to a different vehicle next time around if they experience problems with their current car.
If such problems are directly related to newer, high-tech, downsized efficient engines, there's every chance that a customer may be inclined to pick a vehicle with lower efficiency but higher dependability next time around."...
autos.yahoo.com/news/smaller-higher-mileage-engines-less-reliable-140011923.htmlhttp://
One take away might be the hosts topic of "gallonage" . So really the next recognized "HOT" BOLD frontier might be the large car to light trucks 17.3 mpg to 24 mpg to 28 to 32 mpg !!!
Go diesels !!
One back end issue that goes unsaid/uncomplained about: increased oil consumption for turbo gassers. I have heard rumblings of 1 qt/l in as little as 1,500 miles for gasser turbos. But in truth, I have no anecdotal realities on the turbo gassers oil use/consumption. However IF that is true, the ratio is as high as 1 to 40 (.5 L vs 20 L for 30,000 miles) .
This has been an issue for easily 11 MY's. Based on that "old" information and the JD Powers "updated" information, it confirms the decision (mine) not to get a small displacement 4 cylinder turbo gasser.
Both my 1.9 L/2.0 L TDI's consume (max) 1/2 L/qt in app 30,000 miles.@ 181,000 miles/71,000 miles on the clocks respectively, more normally 1/4 L/qt.
gmc colorado / chevy canyon diesel is supposedly coming to usa a year after the gas-engine models.
if i can get by with 2WD i'll probably go for the stickshift gasser base-model rather than the maxxed 4wd gmc colorado diesel.
especially if diesel prices continue to be 30% more than gasoline prices this summer...
GMC/Cherolet hasn't even come out with their 15 gassers yet, let alone 16 diesel option !! ?? Good luck locating an M/T option ( gasser in either a Colorado/Canyon)! Wake me when both hit the "two in the bush/s" markets ! The small truck segment is pretty interesting. The nexus with diesel is it is another probable no brainer application.
As for ULSD prices
Snapshot:
RUG $ 3.43, PUG, $ $3.69, ULSD $3.93 , -minus .50 cents/.24 cents respectively, for ULSD being 14.5%/6.5% more.
I really have no idea what the C/C will get mpg wise, real world.
Using the VW T 's:
gasser 18.9 mpg, .195238 cents
hybrid 20 mpg, .1845 cents
TDI 31 mpg, .1268 cents
(per mile driven: fuel) respectively. gasser is 54% more (per mile driven), hybrid is only 46% more expensive than diesel respectively.
@ruking1, I have been noticing more oil burning posts. Not sure if it's a trend or what. Besides the usual Subaru complaints, I tend to skim more discussions now because of the way new posts get published on the new software, so maybe the complaints aren't more frequent, but just more noticeable. Definitely something to watch.
Really hate burning oil, even when the manufacturers insist that using a quart every 1,500 miles is "normal". If I wanted to burn oil, I'd get a diesel, LOL.
I know the (GASSER) Subaru burning oil issues have nothing directly (de facto INDIRECTLY) to do with diesels, but could you delineate some of the "USUAL" issues?
Here is one math consequence. (in addition this just this one outlier who would not get a turbo gasser, even as I think TURBO diesels are uniquely adaptive to our roads) I have been using Mobil One (gassers AND diesel applications) for a lot of years and applications. @ the .5 L/qt to 20 L/qt @ 4 to 5 per L/qt we are talking (additional) costs of $2.00 to 2.50 for diesels vs up to $100 more for gassers in 30,000 miles. Again the operative enviro con actions are to consume LESS.?? !! So if I am consuming (up to) 98.5% LESS...., why switch?
Well, it's just guesswork and I likely notice the Subie posts since I drive one, but the number of posts of Subaru owners complaining about having to add oil between changes seems higher than other brands to me. But now I tend to notice more of those kinds of posts across the board.
Occasionally I'll have to add some to my Outback, but the Quest never "consumes" any.
I have not had a vehicle that used any oil between changes in so long I cannot remember. I think it was my 1974 Dodge Van 318 V8 that would use a quart every 500 miles. I can't even find a dipstick on the Touareg TDI. No dipsticks on the new TDI. I do plan to get the 10k mile service before we take off on another Cross country jaunt. I'm over 8000 miles already. Most I have driven a vehicle in years.
According to trade mag Automotive News, Chrysler dealers ordered 8000 Ram 1500 diesels between Feb 7-10, the first days they could place orders... including 400 confirmed-sold units. Ram brand director Bob Hegbloom said that was 5 times the percentage of sold units for a typical pre-launch order.
autonews.com/article/20140218/RETAIL01/140219854/dealers-order-more-than-8000-diesel-powered-ram-1500s-in-3-days
It would have been interesting to know how those (diesels) fit in the over all scheme of Ram 1500 orders, given the projected diesel 10/15% take rate (80,000 to 53,000 units).
My guess is the logistical marketing system will want to create "marketing BUZZ", an artificial shortage with diesels sitting in inventory (ZERO to as low as possible) , from factory order, to sold off the train, to the highest bid/der in inventory.
Somewhat off topic, but perhaps instructive was an article about motorcycle reliability, durability I read in passing, putting Harley Davidson @ next to the bottom. (thank heavens for BMW locking down the bottom rung)
UPSHOT:
Yet, the article cites that 75% would buy another Harley. Most know going into the brand, there will be issues. But those customers like Harley's " let's make it right" brand attitude it has toward its products and customers. Incidently, statistics put Yamaha @ the top.
As a .02 aside, judging from the vocal minority of (seemingly) dissatisfied owners, VW could take a lesson from Harley, especially if it is not targeting Lexus-like reliability and durability. Porsche's and Audi's improving reliability, durability indexes indicate progress, albeit a tad slow.
Anecdotally, I am having really good reliability and durability results with three separate VW TDI's in app 300,000 miles, three model years 03, 09, 12 and two models Jetta, Touareg. In 20/20 hindsight each of these MY's and choices seem to be well rated by those that keep up with these things. The real nexus is of course against the 3.0 L VW TDI and 8 speed A/T (Aisin) . VW (through dealers) have run only TSB's. I have just got off the (3) 10,000 miles (included) oil and oil filter oem recommended intervals.
Slow news day, but the 3.0 L TDI is the (one of two ) stair steps to 30 mpg.
..."The highest highway EPA rating for a big 2014 pickup is 28 mpg, achieved by the 2014 Ram 1500 EcoDiesel with rear-wheel drive--but the highest gasoline number is only 25 mpg, for the Ram 1500 HFE model with a 3.6-liter V-6, an eight-speed automatic transmission, and rear-wheel drive."...
autos.yahoo.com/news/pickup-truck-gas-mileage-2015-beyond-30-mpg-133014079.html
If the next step is doing what Ford has done (1. put F150 on a 700# weight reduction program, would 2. charging a few thousand dollars more be next?
This is not diesel specific and may be old news to some. It seems our garage doors are vulnerable to breakins. We especially want to protect our diesel vehicles from theft.
I already did the fix on mine and thought I would pass this short video on to everyone here.
Easy fix. After I do that, I guess I should think about locking the man door on my garage.
Probably not a problem where you or I live. Though we did have a breakin about a mile from here last year.
You can't walk to the corner around here without someone commenting on it.
But I do usually lock everything anyway. Force of habit - I lived in Spenard once.
Found some news:
"Mazda says the twice-delayed launch of its much-anticipated diesel engine is related to performance -- not emissions -- and updated plans could be revealed at the New York International Auto Show in April."
Mazda Explains 6 Diesel Delay (Automobile)
Gas prices are bumping up and it sounds like diesel is going to take a hit soon too.
Diesel fuel prices eating at Montana wallets (kbzk.com)
Too funny, a TWICE delayed Mazda diesel is seen at this juncture (by themselves) as ..."not "ZOOM ZOOM " enough"...???? OK ! ???? ....OH KAY!! OH KAY !! ??
I am glad they said it and not me, not me.
How much torque is enough eh?
funny how they say "we won't show you how to do it" and then proceed to show how to do it. Nice reporting.
I'm pretty sure you can't do that to mine, at least not with a wire like that. My release is pretty damned hard to pull down. Of course, I also don't have windows on my doors, so no way they can see the latch anyway.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Strictly from a conversational POV, it is almost illogical, given the stated specification, @310 # ft of torque !!!!
14 Mazda6 GASSER, in contrast has a killer 185 # ft of torque !!! I almost can see why 310 # ft is a lot less !!!
I think Mazda's approach to diesel is illogical. Bring the CX5 with diesel to test the market. Most people buying small CUVs are not big on Zoom Zoom.. I would say over 50% of CUV sales are to people 65 and older. I don't think performance is high on their list of wants.
Slow diesel news day here. ULSD on the way up ($4.09, PUG $3.93 Rug $3.73) since the last fill@ 4.03. It must be the spin off effect from the very close station that sold the winning power ball ticket for $425 M , just the other day!!
Took on 11.1 gals 555 miles. I was fogeying along @ app 87 mph when a (CA state) EXEMPT plated executive black ) when I spot a limo in the distance to whizz by, almost blowing the doors off. Those kind of cars are normally driven by out of uniform CHP types: but make no mistake, still on duty. For a second there, I flashed it would be funny if Gov Moonbeam were in that black limo ? At various points along the way there were marked CHP cars. They made no effort to pursue this limo. It seemed to be doing 100 to 110 mph. There was really no drama, other than it seemed to disappear to my 12 o'clock VERY fast.
You should thank the Gov that you're even ALLOWED to drive a diesel.
Diesel still $3.95 here for Mobil, Chevron and 76. Shell jumped to $4.09. Cheapest name brand RUG is Chevron at $3.85. Buying the diesel rig is looking better every day here.
TMI, but the prices quoted all were from "Shell"; before "Shell" bought a series of stations in the area from an independent's logo . They did some HUGE facilities remodeling/rehabilitations ! The Shell's (or shall I say the Shell I go IS /are owned by now Tersoro. I need a score card anymore !
So sad! I don't have the use of diesel only pumps (used to be two or three) diesel only pumps and area and now have to share them with them that GASSER folk. I kind of miss the old days where you would drive into the crowd and ask folks if you could squeeze in to use an un used diesel pump. 9.5/10 times gasser folks were fine with it. Of course, I would pass it on when the shoe was on the other foot.
Well " he" does remind me every other year. I am forced to get a totally unnecessary smog check from a "SMOG ONLY" shop: aka gate way to the [non-permissible content removed] concentration camps for CARS. (so for example, the 12 VW T TDI is required a smog for 14 reg. To add insult to injury, we diesels already pay a (gasser) fee in lieu of on top of the diesel required smog fee) Diesels USED to be smog exempt !!! Your papers PLEAZE !!!!
Needless to say I laugh as they are trying to include Prius'es (the stuff that doesn't stink crowd) Come on down !
CHA CHA ! chacha.com/question/do-you-have-to-smog-a-toyota-prius-in-ca Prius'es have already been "kicked out of the lone commuter sticker" lane . Around here some of those so called commuter lanes have been made into TOLL lanes as if those .50 cents are going to clear up the fake pollution the commuter lanes were designed to eliminate !!! So who wants to buy some beach front Nevada land? As folks know, California is supposed to sink into the Pacific Ocean if Al Gore et al, is/are to be believed.
king, the 2015 colorados ought to be orderable july 5 or july 1 this year. i'll wake you at that time if you like, or if i impulse-buy a cts-V wagon first. check out the fuel cost per mile on the cts-V if you like. heh heh. it's plenty more per mile for fuel as well as for TCO...
Edmunds TCO numbers are good starting places to consider for whichever vehicle...
A new high bar? Or were most folks fearing this? Or .....
usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2014/02/23/long-lasting-200000-miles/5704783/
7/12 in the "real world" are GM.
There is no doubt in my mind, any to all of the diesels I have will post 200,000 miles ! The 03 is the closest @ 181,000 miles or 19,000 miles more to go ! ?
Indeed I would not have gotten ANY of them if I didn't think they could go a MINIMUM of 200,000 miles !? (with other than normal and minor unscheduled maintenance)
Here is an interesting and from reading stuff in passing (and over many years) , I am led to believe COMMON new car issue/ complaint: (new) tires (on new cars). The logic here really eludes most folks, as it is hidden in plain sight. Upshot : So if a person is unhappy with the new car (new) tires, it is very costly to replace them before their time. ($600 to $1,500 cost/mistake/unhappiness)
So the nexus here is if you get the tires you REALLY want, either from the start or when the new tires wear out, that should equate to more happiness? (however that is defined)
So if I can TMI this to death.
The 03 Jetta TDI's (oem new) tires went 113,000 miles. (I actually took them down early due to the fact I had mistakenly bought the replacement tires too early) Almost ALL folks who got these tires ( brand/model) were not happy with them @ all. ! A few outliers were happy with them. (me NOT being one of them, lets just say the results changed my mind) Indeed a lot were saying TOAST @ 30,000 miles. So a set of "good to excellent tires" COSTS the same @ local club store $600. per set (Michelin Primacy MXV4's). But I think it is easy to see (30,000 miles to 113,000 miles), per mile driven$: (tires) are WAY different !! ?? Happiness and unhappiness times vary greatly and so does the cost per mile driven. So let's just say if I had acted on the "toasted" advocates heads up, I would have spent too much money, way too early to making an out and out BAD mistake !?
So natch, the challenge here is to get the same 113,000 miles, at far less price and lower cost per mile driven tires
aka, so far the Toyo TPT's are on track in all metrics. To boot,(hopefully) I am not paying for a Frenchman's 6 to 8 week summer vacay. But then on the other hand, even the FRENCH owned company manufactures it in Romania and USA.
Some tire stores will give you a nice credit on OEM tires. Just tell them what you'd like to do and then drive straight to the tire store from the dealer. It really does help to get off on the right shoes, and lots of people complain about OEM tires.
Indeed, even the dealers will try to accommodate. They even sell/resell "take offs". It is not a real advertised kind of thing. Now if you ask them.... or ask them to put you on the call list when things come in from time to time !!
On the slow news diesel side of the ledger. This diesel tech might leak into passenger diesels ??? How's about gallonage? 84% BETTER diesel mileage ????????
..."Replacing America's entire Class 8 fleet with SuperTrucks could reduce national fuel consumption by 10%, equivalent to saving 300 million barrels of oil, and $30 billion per year based on current diesel prices (also equivalent to one and a half WhatsApps in annual fuel costs). "...
fool.com/investing/general/2014/02/23/meet-the-truck-smoking-the-new-ford-f-150-in-effic.aspx
Still, you have to laugh at "a whopping 10.7 mpg".
Indeed, to us 31/41/50 mpg AND DIESEL types, it's almost still GROSS even if it is FROM 5.8 mpg. However, it speaks really to your's and edmunds.com GALLONAGE article.
So example, IF they were gassers, the mpg would be more like 3.89 mpg. PURELY my swag, but the improvement would not be close to 84% better. So for a Prius to make a similar percentage improvement, it would have to go from 43 mpg to 79 mpg !
I used to have GASSER towing tractors and yes they were lucky to get 4 mpg. So that swag tracks in MY anecdotal experiences. The two jokes used to be: I mistook the fuel gauge for the speedometer and yes we get 4 gals per mile.
Makes me wonder out loud ( I really do know why) why a hybrid/diesel option was not included. It was a no brainer why a GASSER/hybrid was not an option.
Or in my case, go from my van at 21 to a Prius at 43.
Maybe instead of mpg or gallonage, we should be talking about tonnage. That semi can't compare to rail or a river barge but it would even beat a TDI on tons per mile.
Or passengerage. I always figure the van really gets 42 anyway, because it's usually hauling both of us around.
I would say that has been the disingenuousness of the CA state "single commuter" sticker that for a very long time Priuses have been eligible. I have no fairness issues with a Prius with 2 or more folks using the commuter lane, which was what the "carpool" lanes were appropriated and designed. Using your logic, my 03 Jetta TDI with 3 folks commuters would post 144 mpg to 156 mpg. It also takes one to 2 cars off the road, which is almost too obvious to mention. Four folks would be more like 192 mpg to 208 mpg, taking up to three cars off the road. . Another too obvious to mention is three commuters with a Prius EACH puts more cars (two more in this example) on the road ways.
The disingenuousness is compounded by those PROTESTING so called high tech 45 passenger buses. SF should grant tax credits to those paying for the service.
I like that logic. That means the wife and I are getting 53.2 MPG cruising around in the T-Reg TDI. We do use the HOV lane, when following our friends to Simi Valley North of Los Angeles. They set er on 75 MPH in the HOV lane and you better keep up. Wonder what kind of MPG they are getting in their Prius. He never checks his mileage. Was going to trade it on a Toyota PU as they now live in the mountains. He remembered how lousy his mileage was when he had one and just kept the Prius. He goes golfing twice a week 65 miles from their place.
Kind of boils down to the fact that there's a lot more fun stuff to spend your money on than gas or diesel. But the fuel sure gets you to a lot of fun places.
2014 VW Passat Diesel SE vs. 2014 Honda Accord EX CVT
According to the EPA the VW is rated 34 mpg combined compared to 30 for the Accord.
But, since diesel costs more the annual fuel costs for the VW are actually $50 more a year.
VW msrp: $28,675 Accord EX: $25,680
In other words, it'll actually cost more to buy and own a VW diesel than a regular gas Accord.
This probably isn't news to anyone here, but it's a bit of a surprise to me.
You might want to check Fuelly to get a better picture between the 2014 Accord and Passat. They have 62 Accords getting over all average of 32.5 MPG and 91 Passat TDIs getting 39.5 MPG. The biggest thing is how do you like driving both vehicles? Better check your gas to diesel prices. In our area the difference about 5%. Looks like the average for an Accord 4 cylinder is about 12 cents per mile vs 10 cents for the Passat TDI. If you drive 15,000 miles per year the Passat will save you about $300 per year in fuel. I would advise driving both as that for me is the most important aspect of a vehicle.
I am not sure why it is a surprise? The legislative and regulatory agencies are anti diesel (PVF) and have been for decades. They just use the systems at their disposal to make the diesel choice (seemingly) economically more "painful." The real surprise will be when they start to dismantle the myriad of barrier mechanisms.
To state the obvious, (perhaps it is not), the real comparison/question would be the price of an equivalent diesel Accord !!!!! However, I think Honda answered that question (actually multiple questions) in 2004, 10/11 MY's ago. @ that time Honda pulled off the virtual coup in the auto industry by bringing a car product (mark) to market in a revolutionary short amount of time !! (happens to be their Honda DIESEL) Another way to put it, despite those accolades, Honda diesel/s (a decade later) still struggles WW and in Europe, where diesels are upwards of 50% of new car vehicle sales (app 270.5 M PVF). Germane to the US markets, Honda Accord diesel was never offered.
The US passenger vehicle fleet (257.5 M, 2011) is 95% +plus gassers with diesel CARS being only half of the set 5% diesels: 2.5% or less of the vehicle fleet. If one comes to the conclusion that diesels (cars) are favored, perhaps, .... proportional grade school mathematics are not a strong suit. In that sense, (defacto) diesel buyers are early adopters?
The combine figures EPA are even cooked, to use just ONE example so that you will come to that EXACT (straw man) conclusion. So in that sense, the real competition to the 14 Accord EX CVT is the same 14 Passat gasser, sans diesel. Total variants are 40+, 14 VW Passat and 20, for 14 Honda Accord. On the other hand, the 12 VW Passat diesel with 43 H EPA posted 84 + mpg and 77 mpg at the hands of the Taylor's and Gerdes team/s respectively. Honda could have attempted (but didn't) the same thing. (12 Accord, whatever transmission) .
So in absolute dollars terms, one can spend whatever one wants. No one raises issues if one spends $ 22,745 to $34,230 MSRP for 14 Accords (GASSERs). Yet, throw a coupe of diesels on the Passat side, (of 40, mostly gasser variants) and oh the /surprise/horror.
. 
MSRP on the 14 VW Passat side are between $21,665 to $35,085. Again as one can see, MSRP prices and ranges are VERY close, if not virtually identical.
Depends on where you drive too. You might find a comparable gasser getting better mpg in town while the diesel will do better on the highway.
"With the average price of gas in the U.S. at $3.38, and diesel averaging $3.99, diesels make the most economic sense for drivers who log a lot of highway miles, where diesels really make fuel economy gains."
2014 Volkswagen Jetta TDI: Bringing diesel to the people (Chicago Tribune)
I think we are ok with the TDI getting 26 mpg Chicago streets. What did the GASSER get?
I would have gotten excoriated in the 6th grade for trying to make a comparison and NOT giving the comparison (other piece of critical data). Or is that a: "trust me, if you like your HC policy, you can KEEP your HC policy", principle?
My Bluetec seems to get down to about 22mpg in the city grind - different from the ~14mpg my old gasser would deliver, anyway. I suspect the new 4cyl Bluetec, a lighter and smaller unit, is close to 30mpg even in slow traffic.
My advice on that? You'd best believe Al Gore if you live at sea level, or buy a boat as a back-up plan. But seriously, YEAH, I know, smog regs do seem oppressive, (and a sneaky revenue machine) but unlike you, lots of people neglect their cars, and your fuel-sippin', clean as a whistle little diesel could turn into a Smog Monster in someone else's hands. I'm all for personal freedoms, but since we are all sharing the air, someone else's "let me be free" is MY problem. If I were King, we'd go back to safety inspections, too, and the poor can holler as loud as they wish about it. I'll keep it affordable and very basic. Bald tires? No brakes? You ain't driving, buddy.
Diesels coming to YOUR city?
Feb. 26 (Bloomberg) -- The U.S. Army is giving away 13,000 armored trucks, worth about $500,000 each. The 20-ton MRAPs, or Mine-Resistant Ambush-Protected trucks, were built specifically to save U.S. soldiers from roadside bombs in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. Now the trucks are patrolling U.S. city streets. U.S. law enforcement agencies have received the lion’s share of this high-powered military surplus. (Source: Bloomberg)
Wouldn't that be fun pulling through the local FF drive through?
I could use one of those for the Nimitz Freeway in the San Francisco East Bay. The roads in Iraq are better.