Given that the majority (95% +) of the passenger vehicle fleet are gassers. It is interesting that the 3.0 L TDI with the 8 speed (Aisin ) A/T took 1.5 of the 12 top CR spots !
Slow diesel day news.ULSD 10.2 gals@ $4.04 last night for 41.27 mpg (commute slough, 421 miles) HUGE (for here) rainstorm last night. Woke up this morning praying for SNOW. Giddy knowing there will probably be chain control on the SOS DD route. Weird eh? Most of the rest of the country can't wait for the stuff to go away !!!
Most of the state (for literal eons) has been semi arid (kinder and gentlier description for tad better than DESERT) and we are STUNNED when it IS ..... semi arid !!!!! ????? Lest we all forget that is why SO CAL stole the water rights (from the extreme north) ??? Once piece of good FARMING news, (although people with wineries are probably LOATHED to consider themselves farmers), it is shaping up to be record raisins anad grape/s yields for STELLAR CA wines !!
@Stever@Edmunds said:
Stay safe. Even diesels get stuck in the snow. (Detroit Free Press)
Thank you ! STRANGE traveling weather ! We hit a stretch where it rained cats and dogs. @ the OLD gold rush city the (18) 49'ners made famous (Placerville), the roads were almost bone dry all the way to the summit (7388 ft) We lost most of the Peloton a few miles UP (from Placerville). With a few passes, there were very few cars on the roads, just wonderful !! It is NOW snowing as I write this after food shopping and settling in. It looks as if half to1 foot of snow will fall. Took 22 gals @ 645 miles.
And on the negative side, saw a maybe late 80s Ford diesel pickup today smoking like a turn of the century factory, and a midsize International box truck letting out a lot of fumes, too. These things do more to hinder diesel than anything else.
I love this statement in your article. As I witness it every time I drive my diesel.
And torque: The Mercedes is 2.7 seconds quicker to 60 mph, and it easily climbed mountain passes in top gear with the engine almost completely silent, while the Prius's mooing four-banger was a screaming stress case.
To me nothing worse than driving a screaming 4 banger gas powered car up long grades. Are there any that do not stress going up long 7%+ grades? Torque is king when it comes to cruising the highway. Except maybe Florida where 30 feet above sea level is nose bleed for them.
I think the supercharged 4-bangers don't stress very much. I can pull most hills in 6th gear--but not always; however i don't like to stay "on boost" too too long if I can help it. SC and turbos do generate lots of heat. I have had an occasional check engine light on long, hot climbs in the mountains with the 4 cyl Mini. It's related to fuel mixture.
Diesels pull great if you don't over-rev them. WOT is often a waste of fuel.
Saw this 2001 Jetta TDI the other day--the guy spent $25,000 in upgrades to the engine and suspension and he must be putting out some serious torque on that thing now. I'd love to see it on a dyno. The down side is that it's still worth whatever a 2001 Jetta TDI is worth. Hopefully the fun factor will allow him to drive it forever.
Mooing may be putting it nicely. I've been in a Prius C on the highway - when that little thing has to work, it's like a lawnmower at 20K rpm, sounds like it's going to explode. In real world non-stop-and-go traffic, the diesel will shine.
Kudos to MB for seemingly stellar diesel entries in almost every segment (in which it competes) and secondarily: price range. Price in this comparison obviously was not the point.
If PRICE was a more important factor, the 14 TDI's (2.0 L vs Prius 1.8 L) Jetta, Golf, NB, JSW, Passat would be more scaleable choices and in the price (s) ballpark.
The 09 Jetta TI with now 72,000 miles, (14 Jetta TDI closest comparison?) day in day out 41 mpg might be an interesting "REAL WORLD" snap shot (more power still @ 236 # ft). Mr. Shift could probably speak to how BAD the Highway 101 commute is both in the region and incidentally the NATION !!!! The 14 MY C/H EPA's are much higher than the 09 MY's.
The nexus of the article seems to be similar (pretty close to EXACT) fuel mileage for XXX set of mileage vs a built for "STELLAR" mpg Toyota Prius. The driving dynamics of thee E250 are literally heads and shoulders about the other in the article.
In the real world, the ( now decade+ old ) 03 Jetta TDI 1.9 L is in fact closer to the 2003 to 2014 Prius/s power output @ 155# ft, albeit, still greater. The only reason why TDI's mpg is LOW @ 50 mpg , going on 182,000 miles) is because the regulatory agencies would only let a gutted version into the country. 2 to three components were gutted (aka approved) to achieve lower mpg. 1. The Euro version had BIGGER injectors (to yield 177# ft or 14% more) AND 2. a 6th speed (vs 5th gear) which could EASILY post 2 mpg BETTER (4%+) !!!! 3. The 4 speed A/T is/was a booby trap, time bomb waiting for a time and place to happen. (Long way of saying a 6 speed A/T would do far better)
Are you ready for the Porsche Macan Diesel coming to America? Rumor has it that the rest of the World will get a 4 cylinder diesel version. So MB is safe in that segment for a while yet.
The Macan S Diesel is the economical long-distance runner of the three Macan models. Its 3.0-litre, six-cylinder V-engine achieves NEDC fuel consumption figures of between just 6.3 and 6.1 litres/100 km, which corresponds to a CO2 value of between 164 and 159 g/km. Nevertheless, the Macan S Diesel accelerates from 0 to 100 km in just 6.3 seconds (or 6.1 seconds with the Sport Chrono package fitted) thanks to its 258 bhp (190kW) engine, and achieves a top speed of 230 km/h.
I'm interested to see how the new luxury sedan diesels will sell, as in the BMW 7 Series cars. This is an old concept in Europe, but a new idea in America. Will Americans pay $80K + for a diesel car?
@MrShift@Edmunds said:
I'm interested to see how the new luxury sedan diesels will sell, as in the BMW 7 Series cars. This is an old concept in Europe, but a new idea in America. Will Americans pay $80K + for a diesel car?
I would say yes, BUT as a (lower) percentage of folks who ALREADY consume those cars or segments. So I would swag 10% to 15 % of those who consume luxury (gasser) sedans, i.e.., BMW 7 series.
BMW doesn't even publish the % of diesel cars they have sold.
So for example, VW (not a luxury brand) is probably the most notable in upping diesel %'s. Gagrice has post d Audi diesel % articles.
A8 diesel is on the road now. There was a diesel (S350) of the previous (pre-14) S-class in the US too, but the new style hasn't yet been introduced in the US. The old one didn't sell nearly as well as the gasser. I'd expect a replacement and competitors from Audi and BMW to fare similarly.
They might make the most sense in Germany, where diesel is cheaper than gasoline, and there's not an ingrained hatred of the fuel. I've had diesel 7er and A8 rentals in Germany.
If you step back and carefully look at the situation, a diesel makes the most sense in a big luxury car I think. Any small gasser can approach a compact diesel's economy these days but not in the Big Boy Class.
@MrShift@Edmunds said:
If you step back and carefully look at the situation, a diesel makes the most sense in a big luxury car I think. Any small gasser can approach a compact diesel's economy these days but not in the Big Boy Class.
I have done both and have posted some real world (anecdotal) information. Both projected and real world figures indicate luxury and compact both benefit from diesels. I think the other thing to acknowledge that the full options of diesels available in Europe, in any model line are far less than available here IF at all.
A diesel does make sense for those cars, as the engine will have the torque for city driving, but extreme mileage and wafting ability for highway cruising. The only issue might be that NVH could displease the demanding isolation-wanting North American driver, especially when the engine is cold.
Another slow news diesel day ! After almost 5 years and 72,000 miles parked mostly outside, the drivers side windshield wiper (09 Jetta TDI) needs to be replaced. (blade material is starting to separate top 3/8 in horizontal edge of blade)
On the SOS/DD return leg, posted (32 mpg computer) . So a quick and dirty R/T will be 30.5 mpg. The mpg is down a bit as I did a lot of stop and go before the leg UP. The down leg posted something like 36.5 mpg mountain down grades. There were changing conditions and .... traffic, albeit fairly little. Even had to used the brakes a few times
I've thought this out quite a lot and for me I don't see any advantage to buying say, a diesel MINI over the one I have. I can get 31 mpg, and can slap a Golf TDI silly in acceleration, and from my point of view I'm not trading up or down in reliability or maintenance to any appreciable degree. It's German for German.
If anything, a Passat diesel sportwagon would make more sense, since I would at least be acquiring room and better economy (even though I'm trading premium gas prices for diesel gas prices, which are about a "wash" these days).
But if I was pushing a large V8 German gas-engine sedan, I'd be sorely tempted to move to diesel for the next round. Or if a Tesla could go 400 miles on a charge in cold or hot weather someday, that'd be a contender for my money.
In Europe, the whole picture changes, and a sub-compact or compact diesel hatch makes a lot of sense to me.
I like to look at where diesel cars are most successful and then figure out WHY.
I would not disagree with most to many of your points In fact, you agree with what I am saying.
Last thing I want to do is get into a drag race on the street with some air head.
But @ the same time, ANYONE I know that has bought a Mini (GASSER) has taken a "bath" to almost total dissatisfaction ! I mean they LOVED it, albeit, while it was running, just out of the dealer's repair AND they were not sinking in THOUSANDS for repairs. I would only get a Mini with $40,000 of mechanics tools, bench stock, technical and logistics support and a renewed LOVE of wrenching .(aka, religious conversion) So if you are THE outlier that got a good one and have to do little to no repairs, take ADVANTAGE !!
6 years of fighter and bomber, etc., maintenance and supervision has cured me of that, a very very long time ago. The fun part was being a kid in a candy store (like owning an AUTO parts Home Depot) with TOTAL access.
Again, it might get back to Edmunds.com "gallonage" article. I have even defacto covered it.
So for example, 14/17 mpg increased to 28 to 33 mpg (15,000 miles)= 1071 gals to 882 gals vs 536 gals to 455 gals. (aka HUGE volume and PERCENTAGE savings. On the other hand, if you get 31 mpg and I get 50 mpg (@15,000 miles 484 gals ( you) 300 gals (me) , savings of 184 gals, not so much VOLUME. (but still HIGH %) So for easily 10 + years and 182,000 miles, getting 48 to 52 mpg with a min and max of 44 to 62 has been totally seamless. It has been a very good tool for the jobs @ hand. So for me it is only very repetitive "confirmation of why", of a decision made 11/12 years ago. In that sense, it is (very) boring !
In fact the fuel shortage, enviro con blather issue/s has been "STRAWMEN" all along. Punishment is issued by PRICE (price per mile driven: fuel) . So if one doesn't care about punishment and/or or by way of price (price per mile driven: fuel) , no biggie. So your attitude is defacto confirmation.
The US (gasser consuming) public has cut back app 4% (over year to year growth OF 4% meaning consumption is actually stagnant). Even the administration that ADVOCATES cutting back is having GREAT difficulty in managing the effects/affects of just THAT cut back !!! ????
In addition, it is coming to light that we (USA) are THE " KING KONG" when it comes to resources (all types) !!!
There is even talk of up to TOTAL and complete energy self sufficiency to NNN energy EXPORT and that is seen as a series of HUGE problems !!! ???? So naturally, that has to be heavily vilified !!!! We live in disingenuous times !!!
A big key is emissions taxes, fuel costs, and displacement taxes - along with decades of ingrained acceptance. The US lacks a lot of that advantage.
I see the upcoming C-class is going to exist at least in Europe as a Bluetec Hybrid. This is the kind of thing we need to see here - city economy and highway smoothness + economy.
@MrShift@Edmunds said:
I like to look at where diesel cars are most successful and then figure out WHY.
Indeed ! I do not need gas and diesel prices up around $8 per gal to know that diesel is a bargain (relatively- like model normally, apples to oranges in this case) in the US. IF one doubts, all it takes is a CHEAP crack cue lator (for you enviro cons, SOLAR crack cue lator) !! However $8 fuel does ratchet UP the PAIN.
Indeed Mr. Shift is paying 57% more ( per mile driven: fuel), which is perfectly fine for the BOTH of us !!! Life is good !
So assuming 200,000 miles @ 31/50 we are starting to talk of "GALLONAGE" i.e. 6,452 GALLONS vs 4,000 gals. or 2452 gals more. (9,636 dollars @3.93 per gal RUG) So at this "late (182,000 miles) stage" would I rather have spent more or less for the jobs done at those times and in the future?
I can run the numbers for a VW T , TDI vs gasser vs supercharged hybrid, but, .... so can anyone else.
The economics of hybrids are just too steep (for my .015 cents) . Plug in electric is just not ready for prime time and is more expense and expensive to run.
For your slow news day enjoyment. I find it interesting how Russians have DashCams on their vehicles. I guess we will be seeing more wild crashes like this one.
Waxing nostalgic, got to miss the good old days. For as many secondary explosions, got to wonder if that was a Hezbollah type under cover munitions truck.
@ruking1 said:
Waxing nostalgic, got to miss the good old days. For as many secondary explosions, got to wonder if that was a Hezbollah type under cover munitions truck.
It actually looked like the stake bed trucks down in Mexico that hauled 100 lb Propane tanks for delivery to the customers. When I lived down there the would deliver a full cylinder and pick the empty for about $10 US. It would last me several months cooking, heating and hot water.
Older MINIs were crap, but surely we aren't going to hold up old Jettas are paragons of reliability either. Fortunately both MINI and VW have improved quite a bit in the last decade.
@MrShift@Edmunds said:
Older MINIs were crap, but surely we aren't going to hold up old Jettas are paragons of reliability either. Fortunately both MINI and VW have improved quite a bit in the last decade.
Somehow I think "Germans know diesels".
I see in the UK the Mini offered with several diesel options. With mileage ratings up to 78 MPG UK. As for reliability. A retired professor friend has her Mini parked to the side of the driveway with a blown engine. Does not plan to have it rebuilt as much as she loved the car. Drives one of those ugly Scion xB things. Did I mention the Mini has over 200k miles and looks like new.
Showing us a MINI with 200K is like showing us an old man of 107 and telling us they all live that long.
I'm at 111K, and 200K seems a long, long way away, paved with shards of broken glass.
It'a not the diesel engine on a German car that I would ever worry about---it's everything attached to it.
There's a reason you don't see German electronics at Costco.
Maintenance? What's the diff between changing spark plugs and glow plugs? Oil is oil, and door hinges are door hinges, and tires and brakes---all the same.
When I see a car with 200K, first thing I do is congratulate the owner, not the car.
@MrShift@Edmunds said:
Older MINIs were crap, but surely we aren't going to hold up old Jettas are paragons of reliability either. Fortunately both MINI and VW have improved quite a bit in the last decade.
Somehow I think "Germans know diesels".
Then that has to be (even more) SCARY, because the ones I am referring to are later model Mini's !!!! So far so good on the 03 to 09 Jetta TDI's.
A friend of mine, having received her long-awaited and hard-earned C_O title, is ready to improve her rolling stock. Currently in a late-model Accord she bought new, this winter (in CT) has let her know that front-wheel-drive alone doesn't get it done in the snow, but the luxury car she wants needs to be a little friendly on fuel. After years of listening to me extoll the virtues, her short list is topped by the Audi A6 TDI Quattro - that gives her the size she's used to with the Accord, diesel fuel economy, and AWD for improved winter driving. Her second choice is the BMW 328xd, but she knows that it's a size class smaller than what she has, and a 535d xDrive costs more than the A6.
..."(in CT) has let her know that front-wheel-drive alone doesn't get it done in the snow,"... .
In CA, in the mountains, @ chain control points and/or when chains are required and/or both , they will waive/wave/ let SUV/CUV 4 wheel drive vehicles go by. Cars are required to chain up regardless of AWD/ regular front/rear wheel drive, snow, winter, A/S tires. Does that make the SUV/CUV 4wd better? Of course not, but it is "observable and therefore objective."Do I NEED a SUV/CUV? no. Do I want an SUV/CUV yes and NO. I have heard of cars (during chains required periods) being pulled over and/or warned or ticketed.
Audi has really come a long way with reliability and durability @ least by CR data. So I would be ok with a few of its models and of course its diesel engines. I have had in the past Accord's and still like the current iteration. Nothing is compelling enough to switch from diesel.
I am glad you clarified there were no CT regulations guiding or forcing "choices" as was implied. Or should I say given CA experiences, I took it to be implied. It could have been taken either way. I am glad the auto selection was not due to the "force of law" as per CA. While I am indeed satisfied with the Tourag TDI, I would have been just as happy with a diesel sedan (non AWD). Due to a less weighty and complicated drive train, the mpg would probably be FAR higher. The almost way cheaper costs $$$ would be another plus.
@ruking1 said:
Would you please clarify what you mean by
..."(in CT) has let her know that front-wheel-drive alone doesn't get it done in the snow,"... .
Just what it sounds like. Her Accord has had trouble this winter with frequent heavy snowfall in Connecticut... she said there have been occasions where she was worried about just getting out of her neighborhood. She had a Jeep Cherokee two vehicles before the Accord, so she's familiar with the benefits of 4WD/AWD. When she was car shopping the last time, I told her to at least get AWD, but she went for the Accord anyway.
When I see a car with 200K, first thing I do is congratulate the owner, not the car.
She is also doing quite well for 85. She spent two months on some sort of cruise down the East coast of Africa. She told me if the Mini dealer was closer than 40 miles away, She would have spent the money to have it rebuilt. We also have a retired minister that is on his second Mini. He had the little coupe and just traded for the little CUV model. They are not as good looking to me.
@MrShift@Edmunds said:
Showing us a MINI with 200K is like showing us an old man of 107 and telling us they all live that long.
I'm at 111K, and 200K seems a long, long way away, paved with shards of broken glass.
It'a not the diesel engine on a German car that I would ever worry about---it's everything attached to it.
There's a reason you don't see German electronics at Costco.
Maintenance? What's the diff between changing spark plugs and glow plugs? Oil is oil, and door hinges are door hinges, and tires and brakes---all the same.
When I see a car with 200K, first thing I do is congratulate the owner, not the car.
To me, 100,000 to 120,000 miles is the first hurdle, and in and around the first major tune up. While it is probably off topic, another good reason for diesel.
Perhaps it is a difference in philosophy ! I joke about knowing folks who will sell or trade in their Porsches because it needs an oil change. Now there is some truth to that joke, but the attitude expressed in your VAST automotive experiences would indicate the actual practice is far more common and for all priced cars including the vast entry segment and USED cars.
So this morning, after a conversation with the driver of the 09 Jetta TDI, changed the windshield wipers (@ the 50 month mark, pushing 72,000 miles I can imagine some folks rolling there eyes, to some going BFD). My passing comment as she headed out to the commute was: we narrowly averted "car maggedon," made America SAFE for democracy. My work is done here
That was my fault. I was speculating on a diesel MINI.
Speaking of diesels, what do you all think of this development? Will this help broaden the diesel passenger car market, or contract it, or is it a neutral effect? Keep in mind that the F-150 is the best selling vehicle in America.
But hey, we were saying it was an absolute no brainer, years ago on this very board. What are they waiting for, in the so called small truck market (Tacoma to name one, another no brainer) ?
@Stever@Edmunds said:
Lots of people get bored with their rides and it's not all that hard to come up with reasons to justify a trade. And if you can afford it, why not?
I am not sure why anyone would have anything against that. But, you never know.
And then there's you and me with our old (me) and miled up (you) rides. To each our own.
Sat in a running diesel for 30 minutes today at the mobile blood bank. Went to the gym 2 hours later and almost fainted after a few minutes of stretching. Not sure if it was the dehydration or the fumes or the low rumble in the vehicle that got me, lol.
@Stever@Edmunds said:
And then there's you and me with our old (me) and miled up (you) rides. To each our own.
Sat in a running diesel for 30 minutes today at the mobile blood bank. Went to the gym 2 hours later and almost fainted after a few minutes of stretching. Not sure if it was the dehydration or the fumes or the low rumble in the vehicle that got me, lol.
Yes, we are shooting for the short term, 25 years on the 20 year old 1994 TLC! No issues on the SOS/DD trek UP/BACK. I think this truck is being stalked. We routinely get B/C's or notes asking if we want to sell. I get that a lot also on the 03 Jetta TDI.
So what was it really like running around app 1 quart low?
George Bush was probably to blame !!
Or was it my 03 TDI Jetta ? (which I didn't drive today. )
The Touareg's tires got the second rotation @ the tire guru's shop. IF this consumption rate continues, even with 1/2 the tread left (6/32nds) , it is @ a 20,000 miles per 1/32 nd in pace, which would yield 120,000 miles( in 6/32nd in of wear). Shoot by then, I should be bored stiff by them. Hopefully a new tire will take first place on tire rack.com.
Got it smogged close by. The smog guy (not a diesel fan) told me he talked extensively with mechanics who service diesels (not just VW's and or passenger car diesels) . The only thing that seems to be of issue are the occasional glow plug/s or module. Other than that, (like you say) oil is oil, oil filters are oil filters, air filters are air filters, brake pads, rotors, alignments are ... brake pads, rotors, alignments. ..... YUP, SLOW diesel news day ! He gave me the distinct impression that (billable) hours are more to service gassers than diesels.
I really can't say I blame you. These tires have high overall ratings, ie., rain, ice and snow for a "high tread wear" rated tires (tire rack.com). Also it has a very good price/performance ratio. VW and diesel boards have tires literally all over the ratings map.
I really like only having to fill at my convenience. Filled the Touareg yesterday at Chevron. They are offering the best price of the major brands at $3.99 for ULSD. I am keeping track of which brands seem to get the best mileage. Though with my mix of short trips at fairly high speed on the Freeways (75 MPH) it is not a fair look at the vehicles capabilities. 519 miles, 20.444 gals, 25.39 MPG. Just went over 8200 miles and looking forward to a road trip cross country. Computer showed 25.7 MPG and 190 miles left with a quarter tank showing.
"If we look 10, 20, 30 years down the road we don’t see the future in diesel. It’s kind of like a feather in our cap that the Germans are now starting to sell their first hybrids.
The news that Lexus sees no future in diesels could come as a shock to parent company Toyota, which relies heavily on diesel-powered models to lead the market."
So RUG/PUG will remain the fuel of choice for the new generation?
Surprise, surprise !!! ???
The realities that will make diesel obsolete:
when a barrel of oil can be refined for 100% RUG/PUG
RUG to PUG can be harnessed like diesel
RUG to PUG can generate torque like diesel
RUG to PUG has the fuel efficiency like diesel (app 30% PLUS to better)
RUG to PUG cheaper than diesel (not taxation driven)
For my .02 cents, VERY VERY VERY tall orders.
I have been looking forward to hydrogen power for easily 40 years. It will probably not be any significant part of the passenger vehicle fleet for @ least another 40 years. Of course @ 102 years old, I might get a media interview asking me where I was during the historic Kennedy assassination, the hippie dippy trippie days. What it was like during the hey day of that weird stuff liquid rocket fuel. What was it like during the historic Iranian fuel shortage in the Carter years.
Till any to all of those tall orders are fulfilled diesel has the advantage. In fact we export so much fuel (diesel) that it actually kills the debt !!! (aka if we stop overspending)
Comments
consumerreports.org/cro/news/2013/05/consumer-reports-names-its-top-scoring-cars/index.htm?EXTKEY=AYAHFP03
Given that the majority (95% +) of the passenger vehicle fleet are gassers. It is interesting that the 3.0 L TDI with the 8 speed (Aisin ) A/T took 1.5 of the 12 top CR spots !
Slow diesel day news.ULSD 10.2 gals@ $4.04 last night for 41.27 mpg (commute slough, 421 miles) HUGE (for here) rainstorm last night. Woke up this morning praying for SNOW. Giddy knowing there will probably be chain control on the SOS DD route. Weird eh? Most of the rest of the country can't wait for the stuff to go away !!!
Most of the state (for literal eons) has been semi arid (kinder and gentlier description for tad better than DESERT) and we are STUNNED when it IS ..... semi arid !!!!! ????? Lest we all forget that is why SO CAL stole the water rights (from the extreme north) ??? Once piece of good FARMING news, (although people with wineries are probably LOATHED to consider themselves farmers), it is shaping up to be record raisins anad grape/s yields for STELLAR CA wines !!
Stay safe. Even diesels get stuck in the snow.
(Detroit Free Press)
Thank you ! STRANGE traveling weather ! We hit a stretch where it rained cats and dogs. @ the OLD gold rush city the (18) 49'ners made famous (Placerville), the roads were almost bone dry all the way to the summit (7388 ft) We lost most of the Peloton a few miles UP (from Placerville). With a few passes, there were very few cars on the roads, just wonderful !! It is NOW snowing as I write this after food shopping and settling in. It looks as if half to1 foot of snow will fall. Took 22 gals @ 645 miles.
autos.yahoo.com/news/gasoline-fueled-diesel-truck-engine-cuts-fuel-emissions-143005906.html
E250 Bluetec wins surprising praise
And on the negative side, saw a maybe late 80s Ford diesel pickup today smoking like a turn of the century factory, and a midsize International box truck letting out a lot of fumes, too. These things do more to hinder diesel than anything else.
I love this statement in your article. As I witness it every time I drive my diesel.
And torque: The Mercedes is 2.7 seconds quicker to 60 mph, and it easily climbed mountain passes in top gear with the engine almost completely silent, while the Prius's mooing four-banger was a screaming stress case.
To me nothing worse than driving a screaming 4 banger gas powered car up long grades. Are there any that do not stress going up long 7%+ grades? Torque is king when it comes to cruising the highway. Except maybe Florida where 30 feet above sea level is nose bleed for them.
I love that phrase "mooing four-banger"---LOL!
I think the supercharged 4-bangers don't stress very much. I can pull most hills in 6th gear--but not always; however i don't like to stay "on boost" too too long if I can help it. SC and turbos do generate lots of heat. I have had an occasional check engine light on long, hot climbs in the mountains with the 4 cyl Mini. It's related to fuel mixture.
Diesels pull great if you don't over-rev them. WOT is often a waste of fuel.
Saw this 2001 Jetta TDI the other day--the guy spent $25,000 in upgrades to the engine and suspension and he must be putting out some serious torque on that thing now. I'd love to see it on a dyno. The down side is that it's still worth whatever a 2001 Jetta TDI is worth. Hopefully the fun factor will allow him to drive it forever.
Mooing may be putting it nicely. I've been in a Prius C on the highway - when that little thing has to work, it's like a lawnmower at 20K rpm, sounds like it's going to explode. In real world non-stop-and-go traffic, the diesel will shine.
Kudos to MB for seemingly stellar diesel entries in almost every segment (in which it competes) and secondarily: price range. Price in this comparison obviously was not the point.
If PRICE was a more important factor, the 14 TDI's (2.0 L vs Prius 1.8 L) Jetta, Golf, NB, JSW, Passat would be more scaleable choices and in the price (s) ballpark.
The 09 Jetta TI with now 72,000 miles, (14 Jetta TDI closest comparison?) day in day out 41 mpg might be an interesting "REAL WORLD" snap shot (more power still @ 236 # ft). Mr. Shift could probably speak to how BAD the Highway 101 commute is both in the region and incidentally the NATION !!!! The 14 MY C/H EPA's are much higher than the 09 MY's.
The nexus of the article seems to be similar (pretty close to EXACT) fuel mileage for XXX set of mileage vs a built for "STELLAR" mpg Toyota Prius. The driving dynamics of thee E250 are literally heads and shoulders about the other in the article.
In the real world, the ( now decade+ old ) 03 Jetta TDI 1.9 L is in fact closer to the 2003 to 2014 Prius/s power output @ 155# ft, albeit, still greater. The only reason why TDI's mpg is LOW @ 50 mpg , going on 182,000 miles) is because the regulatory agencies would only let a gutted version into the country. 2 to three components were gutted (aka approved) to achieve lower mpg. 1. The Euro version had BIGGER injectors (to yield 177# ft or 14% more) AND 2. a 6th speed (vs 5th gear) which could EASILY post 2 mpg BETTER (4%+) !!!! 3. The 4 speed A/T is/was a booby trap, time bomb waiting for a time and place to happen. (Long way of saying a 6 speed A/T would do far better)
Are you ready for the Porsche Macan Diesel coming to America? Rumor has it that the rest of the World will get a 4 cylinder diesel version. So MB is safe in that segment for a while yet.
The Macan S Diesel is the economical long-distance runner of the three Macan models. Its 3.0-litre, six-cylinder V-engine achieves NEDC fuel consumption figures of between just 6.3 and 6.1 litres/100 km, which corresponds to a CO2 value of between 164 and 159 g/km. Nevertheless, the Macan S Diesel accelerates from 0 to 100 km in just 6.3 seconds (or 6.1 seconds with the Sport Chrono package fitted) thanks to its 258 bhp (190kW) engine, and achieves a top speed of 230 km/h.
I'm interested to see how the new luxury sedan diesels will sell, as in the BMW 7 Series cars. This is an old concept in Europe, but a new idea in America. Will Americans pay $80K + for a diesel car?
I would say yes, BUT as a (lower) percentage of folks who ALREADY consume those cars or segments. So I would swag 10% to 15 % of those who consume luxury (gasser) sedans, i.e.., BMW 7 series.
BMW doesn't even publish the % of diesel cars they have sold.
So for example, VW (not a luxury brand) is probably the most notable in upping diesel %'s. Gagrice has post d Audi diesel % articles.
The Audi A8 will also offer a diesel quattro in 2014 starting at around $79K.
A8 diesel is on the road now. There was a diesel (S350) of the previous (pre-14) S-class in the US too, but the new style hasn't yet been introduced in the US. The old one didn't sell nearly as well as the gasser. I'd expect a replacement and competitors from Audi and BMW to fare similarly.
They might make the most sense in Germany, where diesel is cheaper than gasoline, and there's not an ingrained hatred of the fuel. I've had diesel 7er and A8 rentals in Germany.
If you step back and carefully look at the situation, a diesel makes the most sense in a big luxury car I think. Any small gasser can approach a compact diesel's economy these days but not in the Big Boy Class.
I have done both and have posted some real world (anecdotal) information. Both projected and real world figures indicate luxury and compact both benefit from diesels. I think the other thing to acknowledge that the full options of diesels available in Europe, in any model line are far less than available here IF at all.
A diesel does make sense for those cars, as the engine will have the torque for city driving, but extreme mileage and wafting ability for highway cruising. The only issue might be that NVH could displease the demanding isolation-wanting North American driver, especially when the engine is cold.
Another slow news diesel day ! After almost 5 years and 72,000 miles parked mostly outside, the drivers side windshield wiper (09 Jetta TDI) needs to be replaced. (blade material is starting to separate top 3/8 in horizontal edge of blade)
On the SOS/DD return leg, posted (32 mpg computer) . So a quick and dirty R/T will be 30.5 mpg. The mpg is down a bit as I did a lot of stop and go before the leg UP. The down leg posted something like 36.5 mpg mountain down grades. There were changing conditions and .... traffic, albeit fairly little. Even had to used the brakes a few times
I've thought this out quite a lot and for me I don't see any advantage to buying say, a diesel MINI over the one I have. I can get 31 mpg, and can slap a Golf TDI silly in acceleration, and from my point of view I'm not trading up or down in reliability or maintenance to any appreciable degree. It's German for German.
If anything, a Passat diesel sportwagon would make more sense, since I would at least be acquiring room and better economy (even though I'm trading premium gas prices for diesel gas prices, which are about a "wash" these days).
But if I was pushing a large V8 German gas-engine sedan, I'd be sorely tempted to move to diesel for the next round. Or if a Tesla could go 400 miles on a charge in cold or hot weather someday, that'd be a contender for my money.
In Europe, the whole picture changes, and a sub-compact or compact diesel hatch makes a lot of sense to me.
I like to look at where diesel cars are most successful and then figure out WHY.
I would not disagree with most to many of your points In fact, you agree with what I am saying.
Last thing I want to do is get into a drag race on the street with some air head.
But @ the same time, ANYONE I know that has bought a Mini (GASSER) has taken a "bath" to almost total dissatisfaction ! I mean they LOVED it, albeit, while it was running, just out of the dealer's repair AND they were not sinking in THOUSANDS for repairs. I would only get a Mini with $40,000 of mechanics tools, bench stock, technical and logistics support and a renewed LOVE of wrenching .(aka, religious conversion) So if you are THE outlier that got a good one and have to do little to no repairs, take ADVANTAGE !!
6 years of fighter and bomber, etc., maintenance and supervision has cured me of that, a very very long time ago. The fun part was being a kid in a candy store (like owning an AUTO parts Home Depot) with TOTAL access.
Again, it might get back to Edmunds.com "gallonage" article. I have even defacto covered it.
So for example, 14/17 mpg increased to 28 to 33 mpg (15,000 miles)= 1071 gals to 882 gals vs 536 gals to 455 gals. (aka HUGE volume and PERCENTAGE savings. On the other hand, if you get 31 mpg and I get 50 mpg (@15,000 miles 484 gals ( you) 300 gals (me) , savings of 184 gals, not so much VOLUME. (but still HIGH %) So for easily 10 + years and 182,000 miles, getting 48 to 52 mpg with a min and max of 44 to 62 has been totally seamless. It has been a very good tool for the jobs @ hand. So for me it is only very repetitive "confirmation of why", of a decision made 11/12 years ago. In that sense, it is (very) boring !
In fact the fuel shortage, enviro con blather issue/s has been "STRAWMEN" all along. Punishment is issued by PRICE (price per mile driven: fuel) . So if one doesn't care about punishment and/or or by way of price (price per mile driven: fuel) , no biggie. So your attitude is defacto confirmation.
The US (gasser consuming) public has cut back app 4% (over year to year growth OF 4% meaning consumption is actually stagnant). Even the administration that ADVOCATES cutting back is having GREAT difficulty in managing the effects/affects of just THAT cut back !!! ????
In addition, it is coming to light that we (USA) are THE " KING KONG" when it comes to resources (all types) !!!
There is even talk of up to TOTAL and complete energy self sufficiency to NNN energy EXPORT and that is seen as a series of HUGE problems !!! ???? So naturally, that has to be heavily vilified !!!! We live in disingenuous times !!!
A big key is emissions taxes, fuel costs, and displacement taxes - along with decades of ingrained acceptance. The US lacks a lot of that advantage.
I see the upcoming C-class is going to exist at least in Europe as a Bluetec Hybrid. This is the kind of thing we need to see here - city economy and highway smoothness + economy.
Indeed ! I do not need gas and diesel prices up around $8 per gal to know that diesel is a bargain (relatively- like model normally, apples to oranges in this case) in the US.
IF one doubts, all it takes is a CHEAP crack cue lator (for you enviro cons, SOLAR crack cue lator) !! However $8 fuel does ratchet UP the PAIN.
Indeed Mr. Shift is paying 57% more ( per mile driven: fuel), which is perfectly fine for the BOTH of us !!! Life is good !
So assuming 200,000 miles @ 31/50 we are starting to talk of "GALLONAGE" i.e. 6,452 GALLONS vs 4,000 gals. or 2452 gals more. (9,636 dollars @3.93 per gal RUG) So at this "late (182,000 miles) stage" would I rather have spent more or less for the jobs done at those times and in the future?
I can run the numbers for a VW T , TDI vs gasser vs supercharged hybrid, but, .... so can anyone else.
The economics of hybrids are just too steep (for my .015 cents) . Plug in electric is just not ready for prime time and is more expense and expensive to run.
For your slow news day enjoyment. I find it interesting how Russians have DashCams on their vehicles. I guess we will be seeing more wild crashes like this one.
Holy WOW! That was pretty impressive! Even the foolhardy backed off after enough of those cylinders popped!
Waxing nostalgic, got to miss the good old days. For as many secondary explosions, got to wonder if that was a Hezbollah type under cover munitions truck.
It actually looked like the stake bed trucks down in Mexico that hauled 100 lb Propane tanks for delivery to the customers. When I lived down there the would deliver a full cylinder and pick the empty for about $10 US. It would last me several months cooking, heating and hot water.
Older MINIs were crap, but surely we aren't going to hold up old Jettas are paragons of reliability either. Fortunately both MINI and VW have improved quite a bit in the last decade.
Somehow I think "Germans know diesels".
Somehow I think "Germans know diesels".
I see in the UK the Mini offered with several diesel options. With mileage ratings up to 78 MPG UK. As for reliability. A retired professor friend has her Mini parked to the side of the driveway with a blown engine. Does not plan to have it rebuilt as much as she loved the car. Drives one of those ugly Scion xB things. Did I mention the Mini has over 200k miles and looks like new.
Showing us a MINI with 200K is like showing us an old man of 107 and telling us they all live that long.
I'm at 111K, and 200K seems a long, long way away, paved with shards of broken glass.
It'a not the diesel engine on a German car that I would ever worry about---it's everything attached to it.
There's a reason you don't see German electronics at Costco.
Maintenance? What's the diff between changing spark plugs and glow plugs? Oil is oil, and door hinges are door hinges, and tires and brakes---all the same.
When I see a car with 200K, first thing I do is congratulate the owner, not the car.
Then that has to be (even more) SCARY, because the ones I am referring to are later model Mini's !!!! So far so good on the 03 to 09 Jetta TDI's.
A friend of mine, having received her long-awaited and hard-earned C_O title, is ready to improve her rolling stock. Currently in a late-model Accord she bought new, this winter (in CT) has let her know that front-wheel-drive alone doesn't get it done in the snow, but the luxury car she wants needs to be a little friendly on fuel. After years of listening to me extoll the virtues, her short list is topped by the Audi A6 TDI Quattro - that gives her the size she's used to with the Accord, diesel fuel economy, and AWD for improved winter driving. Her second choice is the BMW 328xd, but she knows that it's a size class smaller than what she has, and a 535d xDrive costs more than the A6.
Would you please clarify what you mean by
..."(in CT) has let her know that front-wheel-drive alone doesn't get it done in the snow,"... .
In CA, in the mountains, @ chain control points and/or when chains are required and/or both , they will waive/wave/ let SUV/CUV 4 wheel drive vehicles go by. Cars are required to chain up regardless of AWD/ regular front/rear wheel drive, snow, winter, A/S tires. Does that make the SUV/CUV 4wd better? Of course not, but it is "observable and therefore objective."Do I NEED a SUV/CUV? no. Do I want an SUV/CUV yes and NO. I have heard of cars (during chains required periods) being pulled over and/or warned or ticketed.
Audi has really come a long way with reliability and durability @ least by CR data. So I would be ok with a few of its models and of course its diesel engines. I have had in the past Accord's and still like the current iteration. Nothing is compelling enough to switch from diesel.
I am glad you clarified there were no CT regulations guiding or forcing "choices" as was implied. Or should I say given CA experiences, I took it to be implied. It could have been taken either way. I am glad the auto selection was not due to the "force of law" as per CA. While I am indeed satisfied with the Tourag TDI, I would have been just as happy with a diesel sedan (non AWD). Due to a less weighty and complicated drive train, the mpg would probably be FAR higher. The almost way cheaper costs $$$ would be another plus.
Just what it sounds like. Her Accord has had trouble this winter with frequent heavy snowfall in Connecticut... she said there have been occasions where she was worried about just getting out of her neighborhood. She had a Jeep Cherokee two vehicles before the Accord, so she's familiar with the benefits of 4WD/AWD. When she was car shopping the last time, I told her to at least get AWD, but she went for the Accord anyway.
When I see a car with 200K, first thing I do is congratulate the owner, not the car.
She is also doing quite well for 85. She spent two months on some sort of cruise down the East coast of Africa. She told me if the Mini dealer was closer than 40 miles away, She would have spent the money to have it rebuilt. We also have a retired minister that is on his second Mini. He had the little coupe and just traded for the little CUV model. They are not as good looking to me.
I'm at 111K, and 200K seems a long, long way away, paved with shards of broken glass....
Mr. Shift: Are you thinking about getting a new car? If so, hope you'll share with us the things on your list.
To me, 100,000 to 120,000 miles is the first hurdle, and in and around the first major tune up. While it is probably off topic, another good reason for diesel.
Perhaps it is a difference in philosophy ! I joke about knowing folks who will sell or trade in their Porsches because it needs an oil change. Now there is some truth to that joke, but the attitude expressed in your VAST automotive experiences would indicate the actual practice is far more common and for all priced cars including the vast entry segment and USED cars.
So this morning, after a conversation with the driver of the 09 Jetta TDI, changed the windshield wipers (@ the 50 month mark, pushing 72,000 miles I can imagine some folks rolling there eyes, to some going BFD). My passing comment as she headed out to the commute was: we narrowly averted "car maggedon," made America SAFE for democracy. My work is done here
That was my fault. I was speculating on a diesel MINI.
Speaking of diesels, what do you all think of this development? Will this help broaden the diesel passenger car market, or contract it, or is it a neutral effect? Keep in mind that the F-150 is the best selling vehicle in America.
Ford's First F-150 Diesel?
http://www.torquenews.com/106/2015-ford-f150-should-yield-fords-first-half-ton-diesel-pickup
But hey, we were saying it was an absolute no brainer, years ago on this very board. What are they waiting for, in the so called small truck market (Tacoma to name one, another no brainer) ?
Lots of people get bored with their rides and it's not all that hard to come up with reasons to justify a trade. And if you can afford it, why not?
Is this just a 2015 MY TEASER, 280 # ft of torque GOLF TDI @50 mpg?
torquenews.com/1084/2014-volkswagen-golf-gtd-hot-hatch-diesel-headed-us-video
I am not sure why anyone would have anything against that. But, you never know.
And then there's you and me with our old (me) and miled up (you) rides. To each our own.
Sat in a running diesel for 30 minutes today at the mobile blood bank. Went to the gym 2 hours later and almost fainted after a few minutes of stretching. Not sure if it was the dehydration or the fumes or the low rumble in the vehicle that got me, lol.
Yes, we are shooting for the short term, 25 years on the 20 year old 1994 TLC! No issues on the SOS/DD trek UP/BACK. I think this truck is being stalked. We routinely get B/C's or notes asking if we want to sell. I get that a lot also on the 03 Jetta TDI.
So what was it really like running around app 1 quart low?
George Bush was probably to blame !!
Or was it my 03 TDI Jetta ? (which I didn't drive today. )
The Touareg's tires got the second rotation @ the tire guru's shop. IF this consumption rate continues, even with 1/2 the tread left (6/32nds) , it is @ a 20,000 miles per 1/32 nd in pace, which would yield 120,000 miles( in 6/32nd in of wear). Shoot by then, I should be bored stiff by them. Hopefully a new tire will take first place on tire rack.com.
Got it smogged close by. The smog guy (not a diesel fan) told me he talked extensively with mechanics who service diesels (not just VW's and or passenger car diesels) . The only thing that seems to be of issue are the occasional glow plug/s or module. Other than that, (like you say) oil is oil, oil filters are oil filters, air filters are air filters, brake pads, rotors, alignments are ... brake pads, rotors, alignments. ..... YUP, SLOW diesel news day !
He gave me the distinct impression that (billable) hours are more to service gassers than diesels.
Yeah, got topped up with fluids (and dinner) and feeling fine again. Makes one feel "old" though.
Seems like we've had the tire talk before. I'm on the "40k is plenty good enough" kick after poor traction experiences with high treadwear tires.
I am glad you are feeling "topped up. "
I really can't say I blame you. These tires have high overall ratings, ie., rain, ice and snow for a "high tread wear" rated tires (tire rack.com). Also it has a very good price/performance ratio. VW and diesel boards have tires literally all over the ratings map.
I really like only having to fill at my convenience. Filled the Touareg yesterday at Chevron. They are offering the best price of the major brands at $3.99 for ULSD. I am keeping track of which brands seem to get the best mileage. Though with my mix of short trips at fairly high speed on the Freeways (75 MPH) it is not a fair look at the vehicles capabilities. 519 miles, 20.444 gals, 25.39 MPG. Just went over 8200 miles and looking forward to a road trip cross country. Computer showed 25.7 MPG and 190 miles left with a quarter tank showing.
Got to LOVE Global warming ?
"All-Wheel-Drive Sales Surge as U.S. Suffers Worst Weather: Cars
By Keith Naughton Mar 3, 2014 9:01 PM PT "
bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-04/all-wheel-drive-sales-surge-as-u-s-suffers-worst-weather-cars.html?cmpid=yhoo
Record cold temps dating pre automobile. What happened to the GW we were looking forward to? Not the same as Hell freezing over but close.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2572681/Niagara-Falls-comes-frozen-halt-AGAIN-subfreezing-temperatures-freeze-millions-gallons-water-normally-flow-Falls.html
"If we look 10, 20, 30 years down the road we don’t see the future in diesel. It’s kind of like a feather in our cap that the Germans are now starting to sell their first hybrids.
The news that Lexus sees no future in diesels could come as a shock to parent company Toyota, which relies heavily on diesel-powered models to lead the market."
No future in diesels: Lexus (drive.com.au)
So RUG/PUG will remain the fuel of choice for the new generation?
Surprise, surprise !!! ???
The realities that will make diesel obsolete:
For my .02 cents, VERY VERY VERY tall orders.
I have been looking forward to hydrogen power for easily 40 years. It will probably not be any significant part of the passenger vehicle fleet for @ least another 40 years. Of course @ 102 years old, I might get a media interview asking me where I was during the historic Kennedy assassination, the hippie dippy trippie days. What it was like during the hey day of that weird stuff liquid rocket fuel. What was it like during the historic Iranian fuel shortage in the Carter years.
Till any to all of those tall orders are fulfilled diesel has the advantage. In fact we export so much fuel (diesel) that it actually kills the debt !!! (aka if we stop overspending)