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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?
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Yes, the Corolla is probably a little smaller than the others, but the article claimed the Corolla had better combined mpg than the Cruze and Jetta. Like 35 mpg vs 33 and 34. The diesels did better on highway mpg. Corolla better in town and overall.(combined).
The other thing is that the Corolla is butt ugly and drives like a golf cart.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
$13,758 SAVED
Well not to reinvent the wheel (as you say there is no US model Toyota Corolla diesel, TMI, drone on and on:
(03 VW Jetta's TDI/1.8 T gas turbo , 184,000 miles @ 50 mpg/ 26 mpg= 3,680 gals vs 7,077 gals (or 3,397 "GALLONAGE" saved @ 4.05 (PUG) per gal=).
So let's see what the study is saying (operatively) : burning 92% more gasoline that has 30 to 90 ppm sulfur vs 15 ppm sulfur (nominally delivered @ pumps @ 7 to 10 ppm) i.e. gasoline FAR dirtier, causes less pollution than burning FAR less of the cleaner fuel ??????
Well then, I guess my one 03 TDI Jetta causes most to ALL the pollution in Silicon Valley, CA !!! ??? So if they shoot mine in the head (or pay me 100,000 to retire it) pollution will go away !!! ???? 
Like I said, I can't even make this stuff up.
Shall I buy $100,000 lotto tickets with the buyback monies (in effect a donation back to CA state) for the $400 M payout? I take it that is why Hollywood is SOOOOO successful, there is a HUGE market for (approved) fairy tales ?????
To wit, we have more Priuses, Tesla's, Volts, etc than EVER and there are record numbers and percentages of spare the air days !!!Say it ain't so Joe !!!! Perhaps Paris France would like the US percentages of 95% + gassers and less than 5% diesels???? Pretty easy to do? Just have em buy more gassers.
lol, there is that.
@ruking1, maybe we need to look at gallon to gallon, instead of gallons burned, because the numbers will change if we increase diesel use.
I don't thing anyone ever proposed that diesel tech would replace gas engines--the idea was that diesels would occupy their niche market in the spectrum of vehicle propulsion. Obviously, ICE are going to dominate because they have proven very adaptable to change. They outwitted steam, diesel and electric in 1912 and they probably will continue to do so.
(Again not sure why the whole quote was not captured)
In terms of apples to pears to bananas comparison/s, the 04 Civic gets between 38-42 in the (same) commute slog. I know it would get far less with 3 folks in the car even as it can use the commute lanes. So I am glad I got the Civic instead of the 04 Corolla. Even at that time, T dealer would not deal on it ( I mean they offered a GOOD price aka not a GREAT one. So me thinks I probably got the Civc cheaper to boot (swag MINUS -3 to 4k). In hindsight I got a GREAT price on the Civic.
Needless to say the Civic and Corolla are not even close to the car the Jetta is.
It would seem to me the real nexus is mpg. That being said, I think (PURE SWAG on my part) diesel's Civic/Corolla would easily do 52 to 55 mpg.
Thanks king & everyone for both majestic and thought-provoking responses. For just one of many things in agreement: the problems with solar subsidies go far beyond the economic to the thermodynamic and the ornithological.
Performance vehicles aren't just about straight-line or pulling up a hill, but also about handling/dynamics.
Diesel vehicles have extra weight which degrades handling, especially when in front as is typical. Let's rule out mid-engine/rear-engine cars from discussion please?
More weight and more weight-bias forward degrade diesel vehicle handling compared with the lighter (and faster) gas engine. Have ye a counter to that point which would apply both during all possible vortices, polar as well as equatorial?
Be nice to have a Corolla diesel to directly compare.
Not sure if Toyota sells the Corolla in the UK. They list a bunch I don't recognize. The Verso has gas and diesel with comparable HP and 0-62 times. The diesel gets 16 MPG better combined than the gasser. And it is a bigger displacement. Diesel 1998cc vs Gas 1798cc.
diesel combined 57.6 MPG
gas combined 41.5 MPG
Plus the CO2 is much less with the diesel which is causing all the MM/GW.
Arcane is the one word summary.
Again, the numbers (95% + plus gassers) render your (weight) concerns practically meaning less. In my case, (preference) there are simply NO diesel 14 Corvette StingRay's, ergo meaning less !!!! If I can drag one of the hosts preferences in: there are simply NO diesel MiniCoopers, to beat the dead horse, meaning less. So probably more apropos: handing differences (like models on diesels extra weight) might fall under... ARCANE.
BUT WAIT: if you look at Porsche Cayenne 3.0 L TDI and a similar gasser ( 3.6 L more than one option obviously) there is not a lot of difference, to .... a LOT of differences (8 options) So are you going to tell me 4.8 L gassers weight LESS ???? If weight and its distribution is of concern why would one even consider A/T's ????
So for example how many folks will make the choice on WEIGHT alone, let alone weight distributions across eight options. They are not equal to begin with. Keep in mind this is one my that actually HAS A diesel option. European Porsche Cayennes (or whatever they are aka have diesel OPTIONS: in addition to gasser options. It is hardly fair having 7 (US market) gasser options to ONE diesel option!! ??
More weight and more weight-bias forward degrade diesel vehicle handling compared with the lighter (and faster) gas engine. Have ye a counter to that point which would apply both during all possible vortices, polar as well as equatorial?
Quick check has the BMW X5 35D with 49% front, 51% rear. I know it handles pretty well. Not sure the F-R on my Touareg TDI. The X5 is much better than the MDX which is very light up front for some reason. 40% front, 60% rear. Not my idea of a good handling configuration. I do know the VW Touareg TDI has dominated the DAKAR when they enter. 100+ MPH on dirt and sand is a good test of handling. Audi has done very well with diesels on the road race circuit. I see no reason to waste gas when diesel will get the job done using less fossil fuel.
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/articles/how-to-build-a-dakar-winner/
Audi has continued its dominant run at the world's most famous endurance race, winning the Le Mans 24 Hours on Sunday.
The team's twelfth Le Mans victory is also the second for its hybrid race car, the R18 e-tron quattro.
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1085012_audi-e-tron-quattro-diesel-hybrid-race-car-wins-le-mans-24-hours-race
Aaah the French. They copy nobody, and nobody copies them.
Funny thing, German cities have less pollution than those in France, and although I don't have stats with me, probably a higher diesel take rate - certainly not significantly lower. Maybe the real reason for the pollution is a freakish weather anomaly. Combine that with the older French vehicle fleet (crossing the border into France is akin from going from Bellevue to Spokane - suddenly all the cars are 10 years older, and many in sketchy condition), and maybe all of all the cars burned in France each night, a product of a few decades of botched immigration policy thanks to guilted bleeding heart boomer aged dopes (the "generation of 68" in Europe) who have been allowed to retain power instead of being shown la guillotine. The same people who would have bias due to memories of old fashioned polluters. People like the "Anne Hidalgo" used as a source there.
I'd take that article to heart if it had more cred behind it. The site hosting it isn't exactly at the forefront of automotive journalism - their "reviews" are hilarious, barely a criticism to be found. Anne Hidalgo has zero cred in this realm as well, even if "John Goreham" uses her as a source.. The article probably shouln't be paraded as fact, even if the author arrogantly uses the term "fact based reporting". The obscure author has obvious bias, and it needs to be treated as an opinion piece, not as news. The obscure author using "in its class" is something a bit apples to oranges too. Powertrain capability matters most, and you won't get equal performance with less mileage from a gasser, or better roadability out of a hybrid offering sometimes identical mileage, but with nothing to answer to in terms of production-related pollution.
Regarding the Corolla, the price you pay is driving a Corolla. I'd trade a few mpgs if necessary, not to mention the torque (and better styling) I'd receive in return.
I wonder if the money goes to the second world traffic infrastructure system, or to aid underfunded public sector pensions. I'd love to see where gas taxes really go - via an independent audit, not from those who are paid to keep the game going.
I have a sad suspicion that if I paid European fuel taxes, I still wouldn't get quality roads, but a few people would become even more undeservedly affluent.
Aaah the French. They copy nobody, and nobody copies them.
Funny thing, German cities have less pollution than those in France, and although I don't have stats with me, probably a higher diesel take rate - certainly not significantly lower. and maybe all of all the cars burned in France each night, a product of a few decades of botched immigration policy thanks to guilted bleeding heart boomer aged dopes (the "generation of 68" in Europe) who have been allowed to retain power instead of being shown la guillotine.
Beijing has very few diesels and LOTS of pollution. Blaming it on modern diesel cars is what CARB used to do. Figures same sort of lame politics in France and California. Along with the burning cars you have the Unions burning tires. That has to raise the pollution a few points.
An employee of U.S. tyre-maker Goodyear stands in front of burning tires at the entrance of the plant in Amiens, northern France, to protest job cuts and the project to close the French plant in Amiens in this November 18, 2013
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/01/07/us-france-bossnapping-idUSBREA060GG20140107
2.5 L with I (presumably ) 5 cylinder TDI, posting a minimum of 442 # ft of torque !!! Killer application !! Gives me goose bumps imagining that in a sub 2,950# . vehicle !! I know one would have to FRANKENSTEIN the vehicle, as there are obvious mis matches.
It's also interesting to note how bad the Paris pollution is when the French are always bragging about the wide use of "clean" nuclear power there. But I digress.
Good point about Beijing, and even about the nukes. But seriously, there's some weird weather in Paris helping the pollution become worse than at any time in memory. Suddenly when there's an emergency, the whining reactionaries come out.
Those unhappy French workers should have targeted soulless execs, not gormless managers
Goes to demonstrate that for as first world as one would aspire, reality shows how far short one can be of the "vision". You are not saying the winners of WW2 should have guillotined all of Hitlers socialists? Or executed at least the minimum number of his nationals to match how many Jews were killed during WW2?
More like how emotions can override logic. I have no problem if someone doesn't like diesel, but they should do a better job of presenting it than we saw in that piece, IMO. When scapegoats and alarming false pretenses are made, the source becomes suspect.
Regarding those socialists, they started as such, but became fascists, not entirely different from how some industries and government have aligned in this nation and some others. And they were early champions of diesel, too
To say that (the full RANGE of) emotions do NOT play ITS part would also be illogical. Indeed it is easy to see in some of the responses to my posts. Or in responses to the illogical (and the defacto also)
In the sense of alignments, those things have not changed. In effect, they have just taken different forms. You can probably speak better to what examples like VW, BMW and MB did (ramping up to and) during WW2.
The emotion I mention is the reaction to Parisian pollution - where it seems areas with more diesels have less of a problem, and areas with less have more of a problem. Makes one think it isn't primarily a diesel issue, but maybe one of freaky weather probably combined with an older vehicle fleet. There are reasons to dislike diesel, especially older vehicles and commercial vehicles, but this isn't one of them. I wonder if the author of that piece would admit there are also reasons to dislike hybrids and EVs.
The fun thing to study is what GM and Ford subsidiaries did ramping up to WW2, as they remained under American control until the war. It didn't seem to matter so long as money was coming in. Nothing really changes.
OLDER diesels use ULSD !!!! ( even when I have TMI'd it more than once ). Europe has been using it far longer than the US, ( circa 2006) So even if one has NO emissions controls, pollution is 98% LESS ( 10 ppm/500 ppm). So AGAIN RUG/PUG is between 30 ppm to 90 ppm or 3 to 9 TIMES higher than Euro or US DIESEL. Who gets the knock? (vilification) Of course, the lower one.
Yep, you don't have to preach it to me, I drive a diesel too
I mean older like this:
This kind of thing, common in the past, tainted the perception of many people.
Easy on the trigger there Bud (aka, I know that you know, you know?) ! This is really a general comment on the article posted by one of the host's.
Indeed, there can be no doubt on the picture/video you posted. However, according to government figures and pronouncements (public service) most of the so called EXCESS pollution is cause by less than 5% of BAD (gasser) cars So percentage wise BAD diesels are an infinitesimally small (almost not measurable like .000125%) percentage. So, diesel ON !! (do not construe this as "preaching")
TMI this diesel would literally fail at the smog only place on SIGHT. If that was a gasser, they would actually have to put it on the machine to get real numbers and literally, it STILL might be certifiable.
USLD @ $4.24 per gal UP from $4.01, since fill up on Sun morning (local station) ! I am not sure what happened. Most likely villain of choice would probably be geopolitical, crisis du jour: the Russian scenarios.
Nah, it was the 11 inches of snow in DC today.
Been seeing it in NY state for around $4.19.
Funny, another area that I normally fuel is still $3.99 ULSD per gal. But then, even the heathens are praying for snow in that area.
11 inches would be YIPPIE YAHOO !!!! You might have something there. Hmmmmmm 
Our diesel and gas prices have dropped a little. I can get Shell diesel for $3.84 down from a low of $4.09 last week. Rug at that same place is $3.97. Though most of the discount places are down to $3.75.
http://www.sandiegogasprices.com/Shell_Gas_Stations/Carlsbad/162990/index.aspx
Can BMW compete with Mercedes in the CUV diesel segment? That is almost 100 ft lbs less than the GLK Bluetec. Looks like you can expect about 32 MPG with the GLK diesel. Not shabby for a 4200 lb vehicle. Let's hope the X3 diesel can compete.
Three engine choices — one diesel and two gasoline options — will be available when the new third-generation X3 SUV goes on sale in the U.S. this spring.
The new X3 xDrive28d will offer BMW's 2.0-liter TwinPower turbodiesel four-cylinder engine rated at 180 horsepower and 280 pound-feet of torque, mated to an eight-speed automatic transmission. BMW says the X3 clean diesel will accelerate from zero to 60 mph in just under 8 seconds.
http://www.edmunds.com/car-news/2015-bmw-x3-lineup-offers-new-turbodiesel.html
(Next day) Today on gas buddy indicates (local station) :
ULSD $4.03,
PUG $4.03,
RUG $3.83.
So I am thinking it was a reporting error. There seems to be a .02 cent rise since Sunday morning fill.
Other than the correction, it is a slow diesel news day.
However, it is exciting to see the new "crops" of diesels coming out. It would seem the oems that offer T/TDI's have given GREAT thought as to eachs' " diesel's " offerings in positioning in, between and among its GASSER offerings. It further seems mpg to be a prime driver and priority.
Almost from the git go (11 years ago) , I have liked how diesel's drive. So @ app 306,000 diesel miles later, the diesel models I have chosen are still preferred (to like models) .
I was skeptical @ first of the 52% torque/power upgrade on the 1.9/2.0 4 cylinder TDI, not to mention the DSG. But the IRS made an offer that was hard to refuse and made getting the 09 almost LESS of the price to get the 03. The DSG filter and fluids were changed app 65,000 miles vs oem recommendation of 40,000 miles. Other than the oem TSB's and a few blown brake lamps (bulbs) it has been problem and issue free.
The most dramatic, on a lot of metrics is on the VW Touareg TDI vs the TLC's gassers. (the nexus here is similar weight 4,950 vs 4,800#'s)
It also would seem the CUV/SUV (S,M,L, ExL) segments are the premier competitive battle grounds.
ULSD $4.03,
It also would seem the CUV/SUV (S,M,L, ExL) segments are the premier competitive battle grounds.
They charge more in the SF area becuase everyone is RICH up there. When you look at the wholesale price of diesel $2.90 per gallon with 75 cents tax in CA, there only leaves 20 cents for transportation and sales. Not a business I would want to be in. Probably why all the Mom & Pop gas stations are gone.
I am thrilled with all the choices now for diesels in the segments I would buy in. Thinking of getting something small for runabout. Not sure what it will be. It will be a diesel without a doubt. The Touareg is the cheapest vehicle we own to drive now.
PS
If you buy a BMW X3 in the UK it will be a diesel. That is all they offer with 4 different engines.
Think about an ICE that is 12"x18". Weighs 101 lbs and produces 180 HP. And runs on diesel or gas.
The Duke engine offers complete fuel flexibility.
Development will allow operation on all appropriate fuels, including ethanol/methanol and blends, bio-ethanol, LPG, CNG, hydrogen, kerosene and diesel. Spark ignition Duke engines are currently successfully running on 91 octane gasoline and kerosene/jet-A1.
http://www.dukeengines.com/
Not sure if this was posted yet, but a not so glowing review of 2014 VW Tiguan BlueMotion TDI.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
One of the things that is opaque also is the SF area can only pump a specific blends of fuel ( B3 boutique boutique boutique, custom blends, AKA higher COSTS) if you will.
In truth in the SF area, they make it SO hostile to put in ANYTHING, let alone a land guzzling fuel station, that most "NEW" ones with any chance of survival (owned by major corporations now) are normally in real sketchy areas. When the newness wears thin, they will face IMMENSE pressure to go away. There are a few stations left, but they sell fuel for almost non competitive prices. Some of the left over stations just do repair work and look like they are in arrested decay.
In a former "life," I have talked to numerous fuel station owners with them citing app .05 cent a gal PROFIT. Most single station owners aspired to multiple stations, Most multiple station owners wanted to sell and get the H... out.
Next generation E-class rumored to introduce higher output diesels...400hp from a 2.9, wow. And maybe the dumbed down US market will get a diesel hybrid, too.
for some reason, I can't post this link: http://www.autoblog.com/2014/03/18/2014-volkswagen-tiguan-bluemotion-tdi-review/?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000588
So let's try this the old fashioned way.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
Looks like that Tiguan TDI was passed around to several reporters. This one was not quite as critical of the noise factor. I can tell you my experience with auto shut down and restart was bad. I had it in a GMC PU truck and hated it. The dealer had no way of disabling. Thankfully I sold the truck and did not lose a lot of money.
http://www.nydailynews.com/autos/latest-reviews/2014-volkswagen-tiguan-tdi-frugal-forbidden-fruit-article-1.1583258
Simply amazing 650 to 750 NM or up to 553 # ft of torque !!! SWAG is 32 mpg can do EASY.
I would want an engine on and off option that I could turn on and off. But I would not be a first adopter.
The GMC Hybrid PU was not that bad at traffic lights. My problem was slowing down to go around a corner and the engine would stop and restart with my foot at about quarter throttle. If it was raining or wet that surge would spin the tires and could go sideways. It made no difference in mileage. The truck averaged about 15 MPG like the rest. Just more crap to go wrong with no added benefit.
Yes, the real issue is how much one spends in neutral GEAR @ idle. I am not sure how to express this succinctly to avoid total TMI, but the net goal is to neutralized the effects on mpg (higher is better) when idling (lower is better) .
TMI (probably more)
Right now because of drive by wire and obviously computer control, VW diesels have pretty close to ZERO fuel draw in GEAR and ZERO fuel draw in gear, in motion.
So if one has a 6 speed M/T and has to idle in neutral, say in SF city traffic. How much off .2 of a gal (25.6 oz, @ $4.00 per gal, (.80 cents per hour)) per hour will that save, say per year @ 15,000 miles per year and @ whatever percentage of idling traffic one does???? So for example in SLOG commuting @ 41 mpg @ 1.5 hours we have gotten 45 mpg in 40 mins (normal idling (little) The counter point here is that I probably would get 45 mpg if I had gotten a 6 speed M/T and @ $1,100 LESS acquisition costs.
But then, one can not help but wonder that defacto, the system wants you to idle that much and more in traffic. They do not remove traffic, they dense it UP. So a reasonable expectation would be (in this case) a minimum of 3 mpg @ the 1.5 hr vs 40 min time in commute rate. My gut tells me it might be optimistic.
Naturally one should bounce the increased costs vs price of fuel saved. One off warranty repair to that system will probably blow the saving. Oems do not list potential savings, so right away the benefits (to mpg) are suspect.
Not a glowing review, but promising that there could be a diesel offering in the small utility category. Too bad it is so tiny in the hatch area, otherwise it could present itself as a reasonable replacement for our Forester. And, it isn't ugly, unlike every other current offering in the class (including the current Forester). Near-total lack of cargo capacity is a deal-killer for me, though.
For sure, it was a temperature taking (gauge) for diesel. What was noticeably absent, even though it was clearly stated was air time for the DSG 7 speed.
Not to worry on several accounts.
The Tiquan TDI is not available in US markets. Even in the very remote chance that it were to BE, it would have to be doctored (significantly) for the US markets. So using one feature mentioned, 7 speed DSG, has NOT been introduced in the US, as of yet. So potentially it (US iteration) could have a 6, 7, 8 speed DSG.
Indeed the lack of cargo space is probably TAILOR made for the German markets where it IS available, alone with other engine options, etc. . This alone would/could put the kibosh on the new TDI Tiquan. The other one hand clapping, your Forester was NOT designed for German markets.
??
If we didn't do that, there was a less-than-pleasant rattling, akin to a smoker clearing their throat, as the 2.0-liter tried to use its naturally aspirated gumption to dig itself out from around 1,500 rpm where it likes to cruise.
Well, there's yer problem. They got a T(urbocharged)DI that someone apparently pulled the turbo off of before handing it over.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
How does 394,007 miles on a TDI sound ????
( with a display of 45 + mpg)
10 VW JSW TDI, 6 speed manual. Get a "load" of the driver's seat, after THAT mileage in 4 or so years. (obviously off topic of diesel, but remarkable to my .02 sensibilities)
forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=409845
For some reason, it jogged my memory, as @ the time, I didn't think anything of it. I was coming up on two OVERSIZED tractor trailers each loaded with HALF a manufactured home. The follow and lead CARS and tractor trailers all had functioning light arrays. I SLOWED to 80 mph. It quickly became apparent both "houses" were pulling away from me.
As an after thought, I am surprised @ how many miles the OVERLOAD logistics vehicles can post.
The CHP unions and officers get crabby if their cars (Ford Crown Victoria's, et al) have 95,000 miles.
Believe it or not Rocky was quite impressed with the 2009 VW Sportswagen TDI he used for deliveries where he was working. It had well over 200k miles and still going strong. Of course he is hoping the Chevy Cruze diesel is even better. For me to travel in anything for 394K miles it would be a diesel that flies high like a Gulfstream.
LOL !!! Perhaps I have been underplaying and under appreciating TDI's
According to CNBC today's video piece, Toyota agreed to a $1 B penalty hit in lieu of criminal and civil prosecution by the DOJ. It got 3 years probation. (whatever that means)
GM is facing a "cover up" investigation on hiding "ignition" issues, causing death and destruction.
Some blather about the "new" EA288 TDI.
thedieseldriver.com/2014/03/volkswagen-to-launch-new-tdi-clean-diesel-engine-in-u-s/
More hp (10), due to design reducing friction, emissions and (undisclosed) higher mpg, SAME Torque. (236)
Diesel is no longer dirty or loud. More power. Germans do it. Diesel cars hold their value better than gasoline cars. The EPA doesn't overestimate their efficiency. You go to the pump a lot less often. If you're buying a fancy car, diesel fuel isn't actually more expensive. The price premium over a gasoline car is lower than for a hybrid or electric car. It's easy to find a place to fill up. and Diesels win the 24 Hours of Le Mans.
Nancy you said it very well. And welcome to the Forum,
Indeed ! Welcome aboard !
This may not be on topic. ( diesel's loudness, lack there of or can't really tell SOTP's) I just got a heads up that there are db meter applications for smart phones. They range from free to ... more expensive (36 options). I don't know how accurate they are, or if they can be calibrated. However, they will probably not favor diesel or gasser when they are measuring sound.
To put some boundaries around the differences in dBA levels, I have seen the numbers expressed as dBA @ 70 mph, idle, full throttle. Car journalists do not actually do much or many numerical comparisons, say between gassers, gasser hybrids, diesels, plug in electricals, et al. So the upshot (to me) is that it can put numbers to one's quick and dirty SOTP's experiences.
In the WSJ (03/21/2014), I just read in passing about BMW expanding its (MADE IN) USA (Spartanburg, SC ) footprint with the announcement of a (LARGER) SUV the so called " X7 ". BMW will also build the recently (pass) announced so called small SUV the "X4". Not a word as to how the TDI options will be integrated in the now: X1, X3, X4, X5, and upcoming X7.
Hey guys. Check this out...Also I saw a big sign at my local VW dealer. 2014 Jetta TDI $23,500, out the door. Lying?