@stever said:
Getting in over my head here but is that really any different from what most fuel injected cars already do? From Wiki:
"While coasting with the engine running and the transmission in gear, most cars' engine control unit with fuel injection will cut off fuel supply, and the engine will continue running, being driven by the wheels."
(I can't help but notice that you keep saying "we" and "our car" and yet your wife commutes in it and got naming privileges. Nice that you get to drive it on weekends at least. )
Anymore there seems to be almost everything, but the kitchen sink is being thrown at the low hanging fruit of increased fuel mileage. It is just that no fuel draw in gassers is not very dramatic at all.
A case in point is the (gasser) start/stop engine option on the MB GLK 350 vs (diesel) TT TDI GLK 250 B. The gasser has the stop start function and the diesel is SANS that option. EPAs of 19/24 vs diesel of 24C/33H perhaps hint at the results. It does make one wonder what the gasser EPA's would be sans the stop start option.
@stever said:
Just slop some diesel fuel on the offending party's door handle. That'll show 'em.
The fleet's TDI broke 20k. So they naturally took it to a solar installation to take some pics.
A line from your article:
I'd hate to be a bird flying through there.
That solar site is the bird killer to beat even the wind generators.
“Regulators said they anticipated that some birds would be killed once the Ivanpah plant started operating, but that they didn’t expect so many to die during the plant’s construction and testing. The dead birds included a peregrine falcon, a grebe, two hawks, four nighthawks and a variety of warblers and sparrows. State and federal regulators are overseeing a two-year study of the facility’s effects on birds.”
Not to mention the fact the cost to generate energy is more than twice Natural Gas generators and 3 times the cost of coal. All to be passed onto US the consumers.
PS
Glad to see Edmunds is enjoying the Passat TDI, Smarter spent money than Solar powered Teslas.
Yes I would agree. As you probably would agree, one wants to put any to all variables to best advantage. But at the same time, 10% of a higher number is still better than 10% of a LOWER number.
In planning the next tire purchase, (03 Jetta TDI) I was sitting in the shop talking with the local tire folks. He asked me what mpg it posted. I hesitated at first. He probed a bit more and I said something to the effect that he might find it hard to believe, but it posts 50 mpg avg. He didn't even blink an eye and said, Michelin Defenders H rated. He then launches into the fact that he had an SCCA instructor type tired customer that routinely posts 55 mpg with those tires on an 03 Jetta sedan, plus a whole discussion, which might be TMI for this diesel thread.
@ruking1 said:
This is way off topic, but our thoughts and prayers go out to the folks ( like Gagrice) in San Diego County, due to the wild fires.
Thanks, they have so far been closer to the coast this time with the winds from the East. I am in Simi Valley right now. Talked to a fireman that just got back from down there. Pretty sure some of the 7 were arson.
@gagrice said:
Thanks, they have so far been closer to the coast this time with the winds from the East. I am in Simi Valley right now. Talked to a fireman that just got back from down there. Pretty sure some of the 7 were arson.
My sister is in the area of the fires. One of them started next to my nephew's high school. Her family has been lucky in that they haven't had to evacuate -- yet.
Keeping it on topic, they have 3 cars but none of them is a diesel.
An area I am familiar with is literally on a 25 year (short term), to more like 75 to 100 year "recovery plan", after a "WILD FIRE" in June 2007, due to an "illegal" campfire. This is not to say a legal campfire could not have gotten out of control.
While it may have seemed like Armageddon @ the time, it burned "only" app 3,100 acres. (2,700 acres of National Forest, so anyone can google the USDA.gov sites for the FULL TMI)
So hopefully after the shocks have been weathered, the longer term healing can progress.
There was a 200 acre grass fire behind our house in Boise one year. The sheriff's deputy woke us up at the crack of dawn banging on the door. We had a fire road and defensible space, but still not fun.
Somehow this thread reminds me of the camping trip I did in N. Georgia in the mid-70s. A helpful turkey hunter came over and kindly assisted my fire building efforts by pouring a half gallon of diesel right on the campfire.
@ruking1 said:
A case in point is the (gasser) start/stop engine option on the MB GLK 350 vs (diesel) TT TDI GLK 250 B. The gasser has the stop start function and the diesel is SANS that option. EPAs of 19/24 vs diesel of 24C/33H perhaps hint at the results. It does make one wonder what the gasser EPA's would be sans the stop start option.
I thought about that. I suspect it is just a bit harder to restart a diesel engine, so they don't shut down the engine at stop lights.
@stever said:
Getting in over my head here but is that really any different from what most fuel injected cars already do? From Wiki:
"While coasting with the engine running and the transmission in gear, most cars' engine control unit with fuel injection will cut off fuel supply, and the engine will continue running, being driven by the wheels."
(I can't help but notice that you keep saying "we" and "our car" and yet your wife commutes in it and got naming privileges. Nice that you get to drive it on weekends at least. )
Well, my other ride is a 2008 Hybrid, so it doesn't really count in the fuel cutoff discussion (although I think the 2009 FEH and later did implement the shut off whenever the gas pedal is let up).
I've driven a few late model vehicles on vacation and business trips in the past couple of years, but none of them "glided" like the TDI when slowing down. I accused the wife of "gunning" the engine and rushing to stop lights. Then I drove the car myself and discovered that the low-RPM torque makes the car gun itself, and when you let off the gas, it just keeps going - so it seems like one is rushing to the stop. In fact, she was driving like she did my hybrid and letting off the gas well in advance. I felt sheepish!
You caught me - it is indeed "her" car, but I wish it were mine! But not enough to have two car payments. I just got her a custom license plate frame that has "M. Falcon" on top and "Punch it Chewie!" on the bottom.
@stevedebi said:
You caught me - it is indeed "her" car, but I wish it were mine! But not enough to have two car payments. I just got her a custom license plate frame that has "M. Falcon" on top and "Punch it Chewie!" on the bottom.
lol, nice of you. Guess that why she lets you drive it now and then.
Interesting comments about the coasting. I suppose some of the hybrid difference is the regenerative braking stuff.
@stever said:
Interesting comments about the coasting. I suppose some of the hybrid difference is the regenerative braking stuff.
Yeah, that's why I mentioned the recent rental cars. I expect the hybrid to slow down as it recovered energy into the generator. But the gasser rentals should also have had the fuel cut off and glide. VW made some design choices here, and evidently matched the DSG transmission programming to the TDI implementation.
On my (OK, "her") window sticker, it says the car is 36% German, and then notes that the engine and transmission are made in Germany. 45% US, by the way.
Actually stevedebi's experiences touch upon "gloss over " some of the technology/ies involved.
So for example, VW in the diesels is a " drive by wire" technology throttle is "FAKE" , aka TMI for most polite discussions. A very gross upshot is a very BIG advantage in parts of the operating parameters normally ignored by gassers.
Another is the diesel engines have been "dumbed" down from 25 to 1 compression ratios. Current VW TDI compression rations (2.0 L, 3.0 L) are 16/16.5 to 1, if I remember correctly. Some of the consequences are good and bad and good/bad. So one good but bad consequence for those that find "marbles in a can" sounds objectionable are less sound clues to diesels, two down sides are a loss of mpg ( mpg is dumbed down) and operational efficiency.
@ruking1 said:
Actually stevedebi's experiences touch upon "gloss over " some of the technology/ies involved.
So for example, VW in the diesels is a " drive by wire" technology throttle is "FAKE" , aka TMI for most polite discussions. A very gross upshot is a very BIG advantage in parts of the operating parameters normally ignored by gassers. Another is the diesel engines have been "dumbed" down from 25 to 1 compression ratios. Some of the consequences are good and bad and good/bad. So one good but bad consequence for those that find "marbles in a can sound objectionable is less sound clues to diesels, two down sides are a loss of mpg and operational efficiency.
I had read that they reduced the compression ratio for this engine. I can live with 30/40 for the MPG. I presume the "good" part would be less stress due to the lower compression.
Not sure what you mean by TMI, a google search didn't turn up anything of interest. Do you mean that the car isn't drive by wire? The steering is listed as "Electro-mechanical". I'm not exactly sure what that means. Maybe electric controls to the engine, and mechanical parts after that, rather than all electric? My wife didn't like the electric steering on the C-Max, but does like this one, so whatever it is works great for her. The base TDI has mechanical steering, or at least that is what I've read in reviews.
Just in terms of discussion, TDI mpg almost becomes a "rubber ruler" metric. That is a good thing and a pretty good advantage over gassers (93%) and gasser hybrids (less than 2%), that happen to be over 95% of the PVF. Case in point is the H EPA 43 mpg for the 12 VW TDI Passat. Gerdes (the hyper miler) and the Taylor's posted 77 mpg+ and 84 mpg + respectively.
Gerdes, a very accomplished hybrid driver beat his own hybrid record with the NON hybrid 12 Passat TDI (bigger, heavier, more powerful car to boot) . So he can hardly be vilified as an ANTI hybrid shrill. The corollaries are real simple, if they could have beat those numbers with hybrids, they would have. They didn't.
The take away (for me anyway) can be within normally higher RANGE's for the TDI's, (like models) one can do better or worse @ ones' environments, choices, circumstances and combinations of the previous.
I am not sure what to make of these numbers. The MB GLK 250 B/T posted on the SOS/DD trek: 35.38 mpg on the upgrade (414 miles/11.7 gal of 15.6 gal tank per edmunds.com, the upgrade trek is 209/210 miles) . Of course we did some high desert mileage, before heading.....
DOWNGRADE, in the mountains 49.7 mpg, (computer screen, for 80 miles).
Haven't filled yet, but would swag it to be 44 mpg. ( mpg killer flats) So cumulatively, it would be 39.69 mpg. (EPA mpg 24 C / 28 combo / 33 H)
It was a VERY good trek overall and for a host of reasons.
Yet on the way up, some sad life changing events. ( there were huge delays) with seemingly three separate accidents in a very small and close area (massive road works goings ons). I turtled by (actually stopped for a time) the fast lane (that should have speeds of more like 65 mpg) and watched fire, ambulance, CHP, highway, tow trucks, crews working accidents on some folk/s stretched out on the tarmac. Just that was story enough. Facial expressions were unfortunately telling. I am sure the most AGONIZING was that because of the massive construction constrictions (no shoulders and EM vehicles could not lane split) and the almost literal elbow to elbow room (or lack there of), emergency vehicles could not ingress any faster than anyone else. The other accidents, almost unrecognizable "chopper type" motorcycle with a car or cars and the apparent last one with app 3/4 car collisions.
I think the B5 allowed by the Germans matches their situation in the EU where B5 is more common. I doubt they have done much testing with B20 to give it a thumbs up. I sure would give it a try if VW would give the ok.
Notice the difference in price of E85 to RUG. You are going to lose money using E85. E85 is only 9% cheaper than RUG. Yet most vehicles lose about 25% on mileage. Nothing adds up on gassers as well as Diesel.
On the face of it, the "B5 mix ones own" got app 9.75% better fuel mileage AND for .0923 cents per mile driven vs .1023 cents per mile driven D2 for app 9.8% cheaper. Not that I would draw any longer term conclusions without a few more tank fuels, but for 15,000 miles commute, that would be app 375 gals vs 342 gals or 33 gals less per year. Prices, of course would be fluid in a "free market."
As noted, one would almost necessarily have to fuel @ known stations of which there are reportedly few that carry B5 and or B20 . Also as noted, the fueling protocols were different , which may have easily accounted for part, to the majority of the mpg difference, headwinds vs no headwinds, another.
But, ...his results are ball parked to mine, vice versa. If anything, I would expect both the later model, and Passat would post BETTER results than mine. On the similar legs with no real effort, I have gotten 42/44 mpg (range 39 to 45 mpg) . I have to reserve judgement. I have only used one tank full of B5 (Chevron) AND could tell no difference in mpg (310,000+ miles).
@KCRam said:
Interesting that they're still using the 10-cent octane spreads. Almost no one in NJ does - it's as high as 30 cents per octane bump.
This is purely a guess, but where there are the .10 cent premiums, any higher and a lot of those that would buy the higher priced and higher octane would simply NOT. The premium octane population (required to recommended) is app 9% of the PVF.
Oh I'm not convinced that the B5 really made any difference because the article specifically says the first test was conducted into a strong headwind which was not there for the second test. For instance, if you are going 55 mph into a 25 mph headwind, your car will "think" it is going 80 mph, aerodynamically speaking.
That suggests to me that the two fuels are a wash vis a vis fuel economy.
Took the Touareg in for the 10k mile free service today. Salesman tried to get me to trade in my Lux on an Executive gasser. Said they have had a hard time getting the TDIs. I just laughed and said not a chance. Told him at least 3 more years before I get in the mood for a new one.
Funny story. A couple came in wanting a Touareg Hybrid. Salesman said I can get you one. It was the color they wanted and signed the deal. They were on vacation from San Francisco. My dealer had the hybrid shipped from the dealer up there to San Diego. The people flew back down picked up the T-reg and drove it back to SF. If they had only used the internet they would have probably saved money and time getting it from a local dealer.
@gagrice said:
Took the Touareg in for the 10k mile free service today. Salesman tried to get me to trade in my Lux on an Executive gasser. Said they have had a hard time getting the TDIs. I just laughed and said not a chance. Told him at least 3 more years before I get in the mood for a new one.
Funny story. A couple came in wanting a Touareg Hybrid. Salesman said I can get you one. It was the color they wanted and signed the deal. They were on vacation from San Francisco. My dealer had the hybrid shipped from the dealer up there to San Diego. The people flew back down picked up the T-reg and drove it back to SF. If they had only used the internet they would have probably saved money and time getting it from a local dealer.
LOL !
The 09 Jetta TDI just got a (Service Action 97 AM) Kit, Flat Fuse (non diesel related). The paper work said only the (new?) fuse was needed. Wife said the car wash took the longest. They seemed to NOT have scratched the paint work.
Got hit up for interest in trade in's for the 03/09 Jetta TDI's AND the 12 Touareg. We declined all three. The rest of the family are NOT car nuts, yet all seem to like the diesels.
@ruking1 said:
Got hit up for interest in trade in's for the 03/09 Jetta TDI's AND the 12 Touareg. We declined all three. The rest of the family are NOT car nuts, yet all seem to like the diesels.
Yes the car wash took the longest. He came out and said it was about done. And did I want the car wash. I said yes and it took 45 minutes longer. Looks good. No charges so that is good. Probably will not be back until the Fall if we make another trip back East. I cannot find a check for the Ad Blu on all the computer stuff. they supposedly filled it.
IF they neglected to fill the ad blue tank, then the check ad blue dash indicators should come on @ app 15,000 miles. Again IF that is the case, it should light in another 5,000 miles.
Mine lit up @ app 13,500 miles. The tank took app 4.5 gals of Ad Blue . (they DID neglect to fill it @ the 10,000 miles included service) The math indicated it would easily go to 15,000 miles.
The good news is I got to watch the procedure and it took the doubt out of the equation. It is truly like filling ones windshield washer fluid tank.
So how are you liking the Touareg TDI after 10,000 miles?
I did not get to watch. But the service guy came in and apologized for the time it took for service. He said they forgot they had to fill the adblu tank. So I assume that is what took them another 45 minutes. Along with the complimentary car wash.
The residual concern from the "old days" (starting 11 years ago) was "correct oil". Too many reports over the years of VW dealers putting incorrect oil (NON diesel), seemed to make it more than an outlier mistake. Thankfully, the same blended oil meets the two specifications VW 504/507, gasser/diesel (since 2004, but really more implemented in US markets and available given the 2009 TDI MY). So in truth, it is seemingly a non issue, and for a while (5 years).
While not recommended for VW's, the 5w40 MB 229.51 specification is also a good one and some use it interchangeably with the VW 507 specification. (if one is ok with the slightly less fuel mileage due to slightly higher viscosity, 5w40 vs 5w30). On a TMI level, Seemingly it posts lower wear numbers on longer term UOA's. Both of course are low SAPS.
@stevedebi said:
Just thought I'd report my first fill up. 2014 TDI SE, 43.5 MPG, about 80% highway.
Fuelly.com lists the nearest competitor (14 Toyota Camry Hybrid ) @ 37 average, or 17.57 % better.
Unrelated & TMI, but the M1 ESP 5w30 ($12.79) @ local PEP Boy's is both 504/507 VW specifications & MB 229.51 compliant (FOR low SAP DIESELS) . So in effect/defacto, they are interchangeable. The real exception is that the 5w30 is an integral part of the VW 504/507 specification, whereas the MB 229.51 specification can be either or 5w30/5w40.
@ruking1 said:
Unrelated & TMI, but the M1 ESP 5w30 ($12.79) @ local PEP Boy's is both 504/507 VW specifications & MB 229.51 compliant (FOR low SAP DIESELS) . So in effect/defacto, they are interchangeable. The real exception is that the 5w30 is an integral part of the VW 504/507 specification, whereas the MB 229.51 specification can be either or 5w30/5w40.
Not totally fair, since the Toyota HSD gets it's best MPG in the city. I'd expect city MPG in the TDI to be in the lower 30's. But one advantage is that you don't have to be careful when driving the TDI - with a hybrid one has to drive carefully to maximize the mileage.
@stevedebi said:
Not totally fair, since the Toyota HSD gets it's best MPG in the city. I'd expect city MPG in the TDI to be in the lower 30's. But one advantage is that you don't have to be careful when driving the TDI - with a hybrid one has to drive carefully to maximize the mileage.
It is actually easy to put to rest, just drive a TCH under your same conditions and report the results.
I am not sure what "total fairness" has to do with it? The 14 VW Passat TDI is listed @ 39.4 mpg! Are you then not "FAIR" for reporting higher than that ? Or anything else that is not the EXACT statistical average?
The "total fairness"s are the reported RANGES (of mpgs and number of cars) and the same math "grinder", data is put through. Indeed the VW Passat TDI classifications follows the EXACT same procedure.
Perhaps it might be totally fair if pizza delivery drivers in NYC A/B test between a Toyota Camry hybrid vs a VW Passat TDI to see what C mpg can be posted for tank fuels ? Then, what would that have to do with you?
I have also said (more than once, actually a lot) that I do not drive the diesels like some hybrid drivers that wish to maximize hybrid mpg. So in that sense, I totally agree with the advantage that you mentioned. TDI's are a lot more fun, unless one enjoys driving with the figurative and almost literal raw egg between the throttle and the right foot.
The "shoe on the other foot", so to speak given the Gerdes/Taylor's results ( mpg's that far exceed EPA figures) when one DOES want to drive in the raw egg between the throttle and right foot style, the DIESEL results are even better than the hybrid's. So for example, the Taylor's posted 84 mpg + on a 12 VW Passat TDI (H EPA of 43)
@ruking1 said:
The "shoe on the other foot", so to speak given the Gerdes/Taylor's results ( mpg's that far exceed EPA figures) when one DOES want to drive in the raw egg between the throttle and right foot style, the DIESEL results are even better than the hybrid's. So for example, the Taylor's posted 84 mpg + on a 12 VW Passat TDI (H EPA of 43)
No doubt, you may have read the Edmunds.com LONG TERM review?
..."Bottom Line: This is one of the best long-range midsize sedans on the road today. It's impressive around town as well thanks to solid off-the-line acceleration and sharp handling. If you're looking for a straightforward sedan with plenty of passenger room, the Passat TDI is one of the best sedans in the midsize class."...
So I took my Dad's 2011 (Gasser, could use a Diesel) Tahoe to the dealer to get 2 new keys and a new remote made. While waiting, I was checking out the Cruz LT (Gasser) sitting in the showroom. It definitely seemed well screwed together. Although I question Chevrolet's extensive use of padded cloth on the dashboard. Still, for the $22K (wonder what the bottom line number on that would be) sticker it was handsome (Red) seemed to have some nice features (1.4 L Turbo Motor). I decided to roam the lot in search of a Cruz Diesel. They had what appeared to be a loaded Cruz Diesel in black (too high maintenance) with black leather interior (nice leather, very well bolstered, comfortable seats) and lots of features (back up cam, cross path detectiorn, rear parking sensors, Navigation I think) with an MSRP of over $27K. Now the issue isn't "look at how much more gas I could buy with the gasser LT vs. the diesel." I've read that the Cruz Diesel uses sound deadening material and suspension parts from it's Buick platform mate. The question is, for the most likely a very similar selling price, do you go for the Cruz Diesel, The Jetta TDI, or the Passat TDI?
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
So I took my Dad's 2011 (Gasser, could use a Diesel) Tahoe to the dealer to get 2 new keys and a new remote made. While waiting, I was checking out the Cruz LT (Gasser) sitting in the showroom. It definitely seemed well screwed together. Although I question Chevrolet's extensive use of padded cloth on the dashboard. Still, for the $22K (wonder what the bottom line number on that would be) sticker it was handsome (Red) seemed to have some nice features (1.4 L Turbo Motor). I decided to roam the lot in search of a Cruz Diesel. They had what appeared to be a loaded Cruz Diesel in black (too high maintenance) with black leather interior (nice leather, very well bolstered, comfortable seats) and lots of features (back up cam, cross path detectiorn, rear parking sensors, Navigation I think) with an MSRP of over $27K. Now the issue isn't "look at how much more gas I could buy with the gasser LT vs. the diesel." I've read that the Cruz Diesel uses sound deadening material and suspension parts from it's Buick platform mate. The question is, for the most likely a very similar selling price, do you go for the Cruz Diesel, The Jetta TDI, or the Passat TDI?
The Passat isn't in the same class - it is a larger car. If you need the room, that is the way to go. I've not driven the Jetta TDI, so I can't comment on that (nor have I driven the Cruz).
I think my post was clear; the TDI is listed at 30 in town, while the TCH is listed a lot higher (I think 43, but it wasn't on my shopping list, so I'm not sure). So it depends on the use as to which will get better mileage under what conditions.
Yes it was and so were my responses. That being true, it was very clear why you either did not answer my questions and/or ignored then, nor addressed the follow up Gerdes/Taylor's scenarios.
So I took my Dad's 2011 (Gasser, could use a Diesel) Tahoe to the dealer to get 2 new keys and a new remote made. While waiting, I was checking out the Cruz LT (Gasser) sitting in the showroom. It definitely seemed well screwed together. Although I question Chevrolet's extensive use of padded cloth on the dashboard. Still, for the $22K (wonder what the bottom line number on that would be) sticker it was handsome (Red) seemed to have some nice features (1.4 L Turbo Motor). I decided to roam the lot in search of a Cruz Diesel. They had what appeared to be a loaded Cruz Diesel in black (too high maintenance) with black leather interior (nice leather, very well bolstered, comfortable seats) and lots of features (back up cam, cross path detectiorn, rear parking sensors, Navigation I think) with an MSRP of over $27K. Now the issue isn't "look at how much more gas I could buy with the gasser LT vs. the diesel." I've read that the Cruz Diesel uses sound deadening material and suspension parts from it's Buick platform mate. The question is, for the most likely a very similar selling price, do you go for the Cruz Diesel, The Jetta TDI, or the Passat TDI?
Like you, I would say the VW Passat TDI is THE no brainer ! Evidently so does Edmunds.com in their Long Term tests ! (prior post reference link) SteveDebi also voted with the pocket book. IF I were getting a new/first time diesel today, VW Passat would be the choice.
Having said that, the 09 Jetta TDI has been the figurative and literal trooper. (warts have been covered) . It also becoming apparent, the tires will not last 113,400 miles.
Probably a good time to buy some stock, but it really isn't down all that much. Around $34, consensus target price of around $40. The talking heads also think it's a good idea for GM to sniff out any potential issues and lump all recalls into the mix right now. Dealers aren't thrilled though because there's a "no sales" order on a few models right now, going into the Memorial Day buying frenzy.
@stever said:
Probably a good time to buy some stock, but it really isn't down all that much. Around $34, consensus target price of around $40. The talking heads also think it's a good idea for GM to sniff out any potential issues and lump all recalls into the mix right now. Dealers aren't thrilled though because there's a "no sales" order on a few models right now, going into the Memorial Day buying frenzy.
As part of the US "bail out" of "GM" gubbermint motopooh, not only were large percentages of stock transferred to UNION/s ownership (can't recall prices) BUT board member control. Indeed a series of "get out of jail free cards" were stacked into the decks, so to speak.
Look at the GM model line up. With maybe the exception of Buick, there are better choices across the board. GM should have been split up at bankruptcy and the models worth saving bought by other automakers.
Pickup Trucks Ram far better and Ford somewhat better
Luxury has many choices better than Cadillac.
Family sedans are awash with superior cars to Chevy
Suburban pretty much sits on top of that class of SUV. Without diesel it is a waste of natural resources.
And it is not really a MADE IN USA nameplate anymore. Their best selling vehicles are PU trucks and they are over 50% made in Mexico.
Comments
Anymore there seems to be almost everything, but the kitchen sink is being thrown at the low hanging fruit of increased fuel mileage. It is just that no fuel draw in gassers is not very dramatic at all.
A case in point is the (gasser) start/stop engine option on the MB GLK 350 vs (diesel) TT TDI GLK 250 B. The gasser has the stop start function and the diesel is SANS that option. EPAs of 19/24 vs diesel of 24C/33H perhaps hint at the results. It does make one wonder what the gasser EPA's would be sans the stop start option.
The base Kia Soul has start stop as an option and gains you about 1 mpg. For some reason it's only available on the base I think.
Since the GLK line has a diesel comparison, it begs the question (s) why it was on the gasser and NOT on the diesel.
My swag is for the costs involved and benefits? It probably made minimal economic and practical sense.
Off topic, but I have read that app 10% of the GLK class are diesels (GLK 250 BT).
Oh, the base Soul "eco" package also comes with those hard eco tires. Maybe they do it help meet CAFE fleet numbers.
A line from your article:
I'd hate to be a bird flying through there.
That solar site is the bird killer to beat even the wind generators.
“Regulators said they anticipated that some birds would be killed once the Ivanpah plant started operating, but that they didn’t expect so many to die during the plant’s construction and testing. The dead birds included a peregrine falcon, a grebe, two hawks, four nighthawks and a variety of warblers and sparrows. State and federal regulators are overseeing a two-year study of the facility’s effects on birds.”
Not to mention the fact the cost to generate energy is more than twice Natural Gas generators and 3 times the cost of coal. All to be passed onto US the consumers.
PS
Glad to see Edmunds is enjoying the Passat TDI, Smarter spent money than Solar powered Teslas.
Yes I would agree. As you probably would agree, one wants to put any to all variables to best advantage. But at the same time, 10% of a higher number is still better than 10% of a LOWER number.
In planning the next tire purchase, (03 Jetta TDI) I was sitting in the shop talking with the local tire folks. He asked me what mpg it posted. I hesitated at first. He probed a bit more and I said something to the effect that he might find it hard to believe, but it posts 50 mpg avg. He didn't even blink an eye and said, Michelin Defenders H rated. He then launches into the fact that he had an SCCA instructor type tired customer that routinely posts 55 mpg with those tires on an 03 Jetta sedan, plus a whole discussion, which might be TMI for this diesel thread.
Thanks, they have so far been closer to the coast this time with the winds from the East. I am in Simi Valley right now. Talked to a fireman that just got back from down there. Pretty sure some of the 7 were arson.
My sister is in the area of the fires. One of them started next to my nephew's high school. Her family has been lucky in that they haven't had to evacuate -- yet.
Keeping it on topic, they have 3 cars but none of them is a diesel.
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2015 Subaru Outback 3.6R / 2024 Kia Sportage Hybrid SX Prestige
An area I am familiar with is literally on a 25 year (short term), to more like 75 to 100 year "recovery plan", after a "WILD FIRE" in June 2007, due to an "illegal" campfire. This is not to say a legal campfire could not have gotten out of control.
While it may have seemed like Armageddon @ the time, it burned "only" app 3,100 acres. (2,700 acres of National Forest, so anyone can google the USDA.gov sites for the FULL TMI)
So hopefully after the shocks have been weathered, the longer term healing can progress.
There was a 200 acre grass fire behind our house in Boise one year. The sheriff's deputy woke us up at the crack of dawn banging on the door. We had a fire road and defensible space, but still not fun.
Somehow this thread reminds me of the camping trip I did in N. Georgia in the mid-70s. A helpful turkey hunter came over and kindly assisted my fire building efforts by pouring a half gallon of diesel right on the campfire.
I thought about that. I suspect it is just a bit harder to restart a diesel engine, so they don't shut down the engine at stop lights.
Well, my other ride is a 2008 Hybrid, so it doesn't really count in the fuel cutoff discussion (although I think the 2009 FEH and later did implement the shut off whenever the gas pedal is let up).
I've driven a few late model vehicles on vacation and business trips in the past couple of years, but none of them "glided" like the TDI when slowing down. I accused the wife of "gunning" the engine and rushing to stop lights. Then I drove the car myself and discovered that the low-RPM torque makes the car gun itself, and when you let off the gas, it just keeps going - so it seems like one is rushing to the stop. In fact, she was driving like she did my hybrid and letting off the gas well in advance. I felt sheepish!
You caught me - it is indeed "her" car, but I wish it were mine! But not enough to have two car payments. I just got her a custom license plate frame that has "M. Falcon" on top and "Punch it Chewie!" on the bottom.
lol, nice of you. Guess that why she lets you drive it now and then.
Interesting comments about the coasting. I suppose some of the hybrid difference is the regenerative braking stuff.
Yeah, that's why I mentioned the recent rental cars. I expect the hybrid to slow down as it recovered energy into the generator. But the gasser rentals should also have had the fuel cut off and glide. VW made some design choices here, and evidently matched the DSG transmission programming to the TDI implementation.
On my (OK, "her") window sticker, it says the car is 36% German, and then notes that the engine and transmission are made in Germany. 45% US, by the way.
Actually stevedebi's experiences touch upon "gloss over " some of the technology/ies involved.
So for example, VW in the diesels is a " drive by wire" technology throttle is "FAKE" , aka TMI for most polite discussions. A very gross upshot is a very BIG advantage in parts of the operating parameters normally ignored by gassers.
Another is the diesel engines have been "dumbed" down from 25 to 1 compression ratios. Current VW TDI compression rations (2.0 L, 3.0 L) are 16/16.5 to 1, if I remember correctly. Some of the consequences are good and bad and good/bad. So one good but bad consequence for those that find "marbles in a can" sounds objectionable are less sound clues to diesels, two down sides are a loss of mpg ( mpg is dumbed down) and operational efficiency.
I had read that they reduced the compression ratio for this engine. I can live with 30/40 for the MPG. I presume the "good" part would be less stress due to the lower compression.
Not sure what you mean by TMI, a google search didn't turn up anything of interest. Do you mean that the car isn't drive by wire? The steering is listed as "Electro-mechanical". I'm not exactly sure what that means. Maybe electric controls to the engine, and mechanical parts after that, rather than all electric? My wife didn't like the electric steering on the C-Max, but does like this one, so whatever it is works great for her. The base TDI has mechanical steering, or at least that is what I've read in reviews.
TMI (Too Much Information)
Just in terms of discussion, TDI mpg almost becomes a "rubber ruler" metric. That is a good thing and a pretty good advantage over gassers (93%) and gasser hybrids (less than 2%), that happen to be over 95% of the PVF. Case in point is the H EPA 43 mpg for the 12 VW TDI Passat. Gerdes (the hyper miler) and the Taylor's posted 77 mpg+ and 84 mpg + respectively.
Gerdes, a very accomplished hybrid driver beat his own hybrid record with the NON hybrid 12 Passat TDI (bigger, heavier, more powerful car to boot) . So he can hardly be vilified as an ANTI hybrid shrill. The corollaries are real simple, if they could have beat those numbers with hybrids, they would have. They didn't.
The take away (for me anyway) can be within normally higher RANGE's for the TDI's, (like models) one can do better or worse @ ones' environments, choices, circumstances and combinations of the previous.
Audi SQ5 , So sad, no diesel, BUT, it begs the question,.... WHEN ?
online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303908804579563792837351668?mod=WSJ_hp_EditorsPicks&mg=reno64-wsj
More on the diesel topic.
I am not sure what to make of these numbers. The MB GLK 250 B/T posted on the SOS/DD trek: 35.38 mpg on the upgrade (414 miles/11.7 gal of 15.6 gal tank per edmunds.com, the upgrade trek is 209/210 miles) . Of course we did some high desert mileage, before heading.....
DOWNGRADE, in the mountains 49.7 mpg, (computer screen, for 80 miles).
Haven't filled yet, but would swag it to be 44 mpg. ( mpg killer flats)
So cumulatively, it would be 39.69 mpg. (EPA mpg 24 C / 28 combo / 33 H)
It was a VERY good trek overall and for a host of reasons.
Yet on the way up, some sad life changing events. ( there were huge delays) with seemingly three separate accidents in a very small and close area (massive road works goings ons). I turtled by (actually stopped for a time) the fast lane (that should have speeds of more like 65 mpg) and watched fire, ambulance, CHP, highway, tow trucks, crews working accidents on some folk/s stretched out on the tarmac. Just that was story enough. Facial expressions were unfortunately telling. I am sure the most AGONIZING was that because of the massive construction constrictions (no shoulders and EM vehicles could not lane split) and the almost literal elbow to elbow room (or lack there of), emergency vehicles could not ingress any faster than anyone else. The other accidents, almost unrecognizable "chopper type" motorcycle with a car or cars and the apparent last one with app 3/4 car collisions.
Loop 1, Diesel #2: 11.484 gallons, 40.0 mpg (2.50 gallons per 100 miles)
Loop 2, B5 biodiesel: 10.446 gallons, 43.9 mpg (2.28 gallons per 100 miles)
2013 Volkswagen Passat TDI: Diesel #2 vs. B5 Biodiesel Comparison Results
I think the B5 allowed by the Germans matches their situation in the EU where B5 is more common. I doubt they have done much testing with B20 to give it a thumbs up. I sure would give it a try if VW would give the ok.
Notice the difference in price of E85 to RUG. You are going to lose money using E85. E85 is only 9% cheaper than RUG. Yet most vehicles lose about 25% on mileage. Nothing adds up on gassers as well as Diesel.
You can bet that the "RUG" contains 10% ethanol.
On the face of it, the "B5 mix ones own" got app 9.75% better fuel mileage AND for .0923 cents per mile driven vs .1023 cents per mile driven D2 for app 9.8% cheaper. Not that I would draw any longer term conclusions without a few more tank fuels, but for 15,000 miles commute, that would be app 375 gals vs 342 gals or 33 gals less per year. Prices, of course would be fluid in a "free market."
As noted, one would almost necessarily have to fuel @ known stations of which there are reportedly few that carry B5 and or B20 . Also as noted, the fueling protocols were different , which may have easily accounted for part, to the majority of the mpg difference, headwinds vs no headwinds, another.
But, ...his results are ball parked to mine, vice versa. If anything, I would expect both the later model, and Passat would post BETTER results than mine. On the similar legs with no real effort, I have gotten 42/44 mpg (range 39 to 45 mpg) . I have to reserve judgement. I have only used one tank full of B5 (Chevron) AND could tell no difference in mpg (310,000+ miles).
Interesting that they're still using the 10-cent octane spreads. Almost no one in NJ does - it's as high as 30 cents per octane bump.
This is purely a guess, but where there are the .10 cent premiums, any higher and a lot of those that would buy the higher priced and higher octane would simply NOT. The premium octane population (required to recommended) is app 9% of the PVF.
Snapshot: ULSD $ 4.05, REG $ 4.09, PUG $4.29.
My station of choice, a Hess about 4 miles away, has these current prices:
87 - $3.419
89 - $3.659
93 - $3.819
D2 - $3.739
I expect D2 to get at or below 89 between Memorial Day and July 4.
Oh I'm not convinced that the B5 really made any difference because the article specifically says the first test was conducted into a strong headwind which was not there for the second test. For instance, if you are going 55 mph into a 25 mph headwind, your car will "think" it is going 80 mph, aerodynamically speaking.
That suggests to me that the two fuels are a wash vis a vis fuel economy.
Took the Touareg in for the 10k mile free service today. Salesman tried to get me to trade in my Lux on an Executive gasser. Said they have had a hard time getting the TDIs. I just laughed and said not a chance. Told him at least 3 more years before I get in the mood for a new one.
Funny story. A couple came in wanting a Touareg Hybrid. Salesman said I can get you one. It was the color they wanted and signed the deal. They were on vacation from San Francisco. My dealer had the hybrid shipped from the dealer up there to San Diego. The people flew back down picked up the T-reg and drove it back to SF. If they had only used the internet they would have probably saved money and time getting it from a local dealer.
LOL !
The 09 Jetta TDI just got a (Service Action 97 AM) Kit, Flat Fuse (non diesel related). The paper work said only the (new?) fuse was needed. Wife said the car wash took the longest. They seemed to NOT have scratched the paint work.
Got hit up for interest in trade in's for the 03/09 Jetta TDI's AND the 12 Touareg. We declined all three. The rest of the family are NOT car nuts, yet all seem to like the diesels.
Yes the car wash took the longest. He came out and said it was about done. And did I want the car wash. I said yes and it took 45 minutes longer. Looks good. No charges so that is good. Probably will not be back until the Fall if we make another trip back East. I cannot find a check for the Ad Blu on all the computer stuff. they supposedly filled it.
IF they neglected to fill the ad blue tank, then the check ad blue dash indicators should come on @ app 15,000 miles. Again IF that is the case, it should light in another 5,000 miles.
Mine lit up @ app 13,500 miles. The tank took app 4.5 gals of Ad Blue . (they DID neglect to fill it @ the 10,000 miles included service) The math indicated it would easily go to 15,000 miles.
The good news is I got to watch the procedure and it took the doubt out of the equation. It is truly like filling ones windshield washer fluid tank.
So how are you liking the Touareg TDI after 10,000 miles?
I did not get to watch. But the service guy came in and apologized for the time it took for service. He said they forgot they had to fill the adblu tank. So I assume that is what took them another 45 minutes. Along with the complimentary car wash.
The residual concern from the "old days" (starting 11 years ago) was "correct oil". Too many reports over the years of VW dealers putting incorrect oil (NON diesel), seemed to make it more than an outlier mistake. Thankfully, the same blended oil meets the two specifications VW 504/507, gasser/diesel (since 2004, but really more implemented in US markets and available given the 2009 TDI MY). So in truth, it is seemingly a non issue, and for a while (5 years).
While not recommended for VW's, the 5w40 MB 229.51 specification is also a good one and some use it interchangeably with the VW 507 specification. (if one is ok with the slightly less fuel mileage due to slightly higher viscosity, 5w40 vs 5w30). On a TMI level, Seemingly it posts lower wear numbers on longer term UOA's. Both of course are low SAPS.
Just thought I'd report my first fill up. 2014 TDI SE, 43.5 MPG, about 80% highway.
@stevedebi
Thanks for sticking around. That's fantastic for a big sedan.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
Well, there is the sound of crickets chirping over the the Passat forums...
Fuelly.com lists the nearest competitor (14 Toyota Camry Hybrid ) @ 37 average, or 17.57 % better.
Unrelated & TMI, but the M1 ESP 5w30 ($12.79) @ local PEP Boy's is both 504/507 VW specifications & MB 229.51 compliant (FOR low SAP DIESELS) . So in effect/defacto, they are interchangeable. The real exception is that the 5w30 is an integral part of the VW 504/507 specification, whereas the MB 229.51 specification can be either or 5w30/5w40.
Not totally fair, since the Toyota HSD gets it's best MPG in the city. I'd expect city MPG in the TDI to be in the lower 30's. But one advantage is that you don't have to be careful when driving the TDI - with a hybrid one has to drive carefully to maximize the mileage.
It is actually easy to put to rest, just drive a TCH under your same conditions and report the results.
I am not sure what "total fairness" has to do with it? The 14 VW Passat TDI is listed @ 39.4 mpg! Are you then not "FAIR" for reporting higher than that ? Or anything else that is not the EXACT statistical average?
The "total fairness"s are the reported RANGES (of mpgs and number of cars) and the same math "grinder", data is put through. Indeed the VW Passat TDI classifications follows the EXACT same procedure.
Perhaps it might be totally fair if pizza delivery drivers in NYC A/B test between a Toyota Camry hybrid vs a VW Passat TDI to see what C mpg can be posted for tank fuels ? Then, what would that have to do with you?
I have also said (more than once, actually a lot) that I do not drive the diesels like some hybrid drivers that wish to maximize hybrid mpg. So in that sense, I totally agree with the advantage that you mentioned. TDI's are a lot more fun, unless one enjoys driving with the figurative and almost literal raw egg between the throttle and the right foot.
The "shoe on the other foot", so to speak given the Gerdes/Taylor's results ( mpg's that far exceed EPA figures) when one DOES want to drive in the raw egg between the throttle and right foot style, the DIESEL results are even better than the hybrid's. So for example, the Taylor's posted 84 mpg + on a 12 VW Passat TDI (H EPA of 43)
No doubt, you may have read the Edmunds.com LONG TERM review?
..."Bottom Line: This is one of the best long-range midsize sedans on the road today. It's impressive around town as well thanks to solid off-the-line acceleration and sharp handling. If you're looking for a straightforward sedan with plenty of passenger room, the Passat TDI is one of the best sedans in the midsize class."...
If you haven't, here is an easy link.
edmunds.com/volkswagen/passat/2013/long-term-road-test/wrap-up.html
Diesel vs. Diesel
So I took my Dad's 2011 (Gasser, could use a Diesel) Tahoe to the dealer to get 2 new keys and a new remote made. While waiting, I was checking out the Cruz LT (Gasser) sitting in the showroom. It definitely seemed well screwed together. Although I question Chevrolet's extensive use of padded cloth on the dashboard. Still, for the $22K (wonder what the bottom line number on that would be) sticker it was handsome (Red) seemed to have some nice features (1.4 L Turbo Motor). I decided to roam the lot in search of a Cruz Diesel. They had what appeared to be a loaded Cruz Diesel in black (too high maintenance) with black leather interior (nice leather, very well bolstered, comfortable seats) and lots of features (back up cam, cross path detectiorn, rear parking sensors, Navigation I think) with an MSRP of over $27K. Now the issue isn't "look at how much more gas I could buy with the gasser LT vs. the diesel." I've read that the Cruz Diesel uses sound deadening material and suspension parts from it's Buick platform mate. The question is, for the most likely a very similar selling price, do you go for the Cruz Diesel, The Jetta TDI, or the Passat TDI?
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
The Passat isn't in the same class - it is a larger car. If you need the room, that is the way to go. I've not driven the Jetta TDI, so I can't comment on that (nor have I driven the Cruz).
@stevedebi
Oh, I know the Passat is a MUCH larger car. That's what almost makes it a "no brainer."
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
I think my post was clear; the TDI is listed at 30 in town, while the TCH is listed a lot higher (I think 43, but it wasn't on my shopping list, so I'm not sure). So it depends on the use as to which will get better mileage under what conditions.
The TDI is a whole lot of fun to drive...
Yes it was and so were my responses. That being true, it was very clear why you either did not answer my questions and/or ignored then, nor addressed the follow up Gerdes/Taylor's scenarios.
Like you, I would say the VW Passat TDI is THE no brainer ! Evidently so does Edmunds.com in their Long Term tests ! (prior post reference link) SteveDebi also voted with the pocket book. IF I were getting a new/first time diesel today, VW Passat would be the choice.
Having said that, the 09 Jetta TDI has been the figurative and literal trooper. (warts have been covered) . It also becoming apparent, the tires will not last 113,400 miles.
This can't be a good thing for GM, on topic diesel or NOT ! ?
http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1809714/thumbs/n-GM-570.jpg
huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/21/gm-recall-more-than-sold_n_5367478.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592
Probably a good time to buy some stock, but it really isn't down all that much. Around $34, consensus target price of around $40. The talking heads also think it's a good idea for GM to sniff out any potential issues and lump all recalls into the mix right now. Dealers aren't thrilled though because there's a "no sales" order on a few models right now, going into the Memorial Day buying frenzy.
As part of the US "bail out" of "GM" gubbermint motopooh, not only were large percentages of stock transferred to UNION/s ownership (can't recall prices) BUT board member control. Indeed a series of "get out of jail free cards" were stacked into the decks, so to speak.
Look at the GM model line up. With maybe the exception of Buick, there are better choices across the board. GM should have been split up at bankruptcy and the models worth saving bought by other automakers.
Pickup Trucks Ram far better and Ford somewhat better
Luxury has many choices better than Cadillac.
Family sedans are awash with superior cars to Chevy
Suburban pretty much sits on top of that class of SUV. Without diesel it is a waste of natural resources.
And it is not really a MADE IN USA nameplate anymore. Their best selling vehicles are PU trucks and they are over 50% made in Mexico.