Says it all about the VW/Audi diesel engine involved here. VW/Audi knowingly misled the testing results. This also hints at why a fix may not be the answers-- many started suggesting how to avoid the fix to keep the higher mileage and \ power talked about here OR how to undo any fix to regain the higher mileage and power at the expense of pollution.
"When it was revealed that VW had installed cheating devices on diesel vehicles as far back as 2008, it was played off as a mistake unknown to most of the company. But back in 2008, VW’s marketing enjoyed exploiting the performance of the illegal technology, bragging that vehicles outperformed EPA testing in the real world.
As Consumer Reports points out, a 2008 press release shows Volkswagen bragging about the discrepancy of their diesel models’ real-world performance when compared to EPA testing:
“While the Environmental Protection Agency estimates the Jetta TDI at an economical 29 mpg city and 40 mpg highway, Volkswagen went a step further to show real world fuel economy of the Jetta TDI. Leading third-party certifier, AMCI, tested the Jetta TDI and found it performed 24 percent better in real world conditions, achieving 38 mpg in the city and 44 mpg on the highway.”
And CR says it’s these better-than-sticker estimates that pushed many people to go out and buy a diesel model over their gasoline and hybrid counterparts.
Consumer Reports also looked back at 16 diesel models they recently tested and found that only Volkswagen-branded diesel models exceeded the EPA-estimated MPG numbers. The signs have been there all along!
Your post is confirming EXACTLY what I have said about EPA/CARB! !
A lot of folks also don't know (tmi,obviously) that the vendor for VW that manufactured the emission system for the 2009 VW TDI's was based in New York State. Nexus? Then NY Senator H. Clinton was instrumental in making sure that particular NY vendor won the VW TDI emissions contract! (Non ad blue) Also if you recall me posting, the IRS gave the 2009 Jetta TDI a $1,200 tax CREDIT ! Coincidently, with no charge of conspiracy, that $ figure was the amount the vendor sold each unit to VW for.
So the logic goes : if you're dealing with somebody "made," what do you have to fear ? How much more "LEGAL" can you be in dealing with then NY Senator H. Clinton ? She's more way more teflon than the past teflon pres!
IF the word got out that NY Senator H. Clinton was godmothering this, do you think because of the political nature of the EPA/CARB that everybody figured .... I know nut ting! Of course, I know nothing!
Could they have been listening to this site, when I lsuggested a mom? (Nexus being "mom,Mary Bara, CEO,GM got GM off lightly on the killer ignition issue?) @ 65 yrs young, she could be grand mother) to be VW's public face & a past GC, a judge to boot?
Jetta TDI and found it performed 24 percent better in real world conditions, achieving 38 mpg in the city and 44 mpg on the highway.”
And CR says it’s these better-than-sticker estimates that pushed many people to go out and buy a diesel model over their gasoline and hybrid counterparts.
Friend of mine gets 42mpg mixed driving and 50 mpg highway driving on his Jetta TDI.
All those hypocrites who claim they bought a TDI because of 'Clean Diesel " are just out to grab compensation from the VW.
Jetta TDI and found it performed 24 percent better in real world conditions, achieving 38 mpg in the city and 44 mpg on the highway.”
And CR says it’s these better-than-sticker estimates that pushed many people to go out and buy a diesel model over their gasoline and hybrid counterparts.
Friend of mine gets 42mpg mixed driving and 50 mpg highway driving on his Jetta TDI.
All those hypocrites who claim they bought a TDI because of 'Clean Diesel " are just out to grab compensation from the VW.
Various polls put that number @ about a minority of 24%. I actually like the diesels for how ithey drive over (like model and competitive) gas and gas hybrids. "Clean diesel, " for me wasn't even on the radar.
Do I want VW to fix it? No & Yes!! ?? If EPA/Carb exempts it by title for life! NO! I like how it runs now! If EPA/CARB is going to do the [non-permissible content removed] thing, because they certified it @ least 3 times and now want to punish someone who did NOT do the crime, you betcha.
It would be especially true if the fix degrades functioning!
Again to state the obvious, I do know how the 2.1 L MB BLUE TECH & the VW 3.0L Touareg w Ad Blue run.
I would be real surprised if 5% of VW TDI buyers set low emissions as their top priority buying their diesel. Those that buy a Prius may be 50% or more. Why else would you buy one of those little pigs? Not for 0-60 MPH acceleration for sure. Not for passing on the Interstate going up hill. And not for long range between refills.
If you get 50 mpg (not out of the question) on the highway driving 60mph and use 10 gallons that would be 500 miles. We ve never gotten 500 miles on a single tank, a little over 400 yes, Most of the time when we hit 350 miles on a tank I m looking for a gas station where I ll put in about 7.5 gallons.
Be interesting to see how many get in on the class action lawsuits, to make the attorneys richer? Also be interesting to see how many trade in the VW TDI on a lower mileage gasser? So far they are not coming out of the woodwork for sale.
http://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/VWs-Dieselgate-Scandal-Could-Cost-Up-To-87-Billion-In-Total.html Interesting headline. I suspect the cost will be between the $7 or so billion VW put away and the $87 billion bananas Credit Suisse says is the upper range. I wonder if they included in this all the money VW will need to give their dealers. Some may need a fair amount of help given that they cannot sell any diesels for a few months and sales are likely to be lower for the next year or two. A few marginal dealers may go under.
Just think of all the time and energy they will need to expend in the next year while their competitors are using their money to build better and cheaper cars and SUVs.
Anyone think the VW used prices are down ? Look at this link
I don't see any loss for VW TDI sellers. Looks like about $2000 more for a TDI than a gasser both Passat SEL models. I am watching for a 2014-15 Golf TDI and the prices are higher than I was quoted new 8 months ago. According to CarMax only 4 Golf TDI 2014-15 for sale in the entire USA. And NO bargains that I see.
All the VW attorneys have to say is we will give you high blue Book and see how many takers. So much for their class action lawsuits.
Anyone think the VW used prices are down ? Look at this link
This article might say it more directly and give a wider perspective!
..."In September, VW was the market share leader in the auto industry in EU. It posted 23% of the market. As a contrast GM (NYSE: GM), the leading car company in the U.S. has an 18% share in its home market. For the time being, the engine scandal which has gripped VW has not battered sales in its home market."... http://247wallst.com/autos/2015/10/18/vw-keeps-23-market-share-in-europe/
GM has also had the advantage of bankruptcy ! This is HUGE, almost beyond measure! This is not even to mention a broad and deep taxpayer BAIL OUT!!! Did I already say: this also HUGE HUGE beyond measure!?
To repeat another thing that has been already noted, VW has approximately 2.5% of US market share. So (huge) IF 2015 sales hit 17.5 M, & IF VW diesels are app 23%, THEN TDI's are projected to be 100,000 US market units.
So if anybody else but me is inclined to pull out their CHEAP crack cue laters, .... 2015 TDI's are app .00575 % !!! In a sound bite ...close to NOT measurable!!! This is a GREAT year! So if you take the 425,000 TDI's affected, in 6 ears since 2009, that is less than 70,834 units per year!
So y'all do chicken little proud and keep clucking!
The 2016 Honda Civic turbo is rated 42 mpg on the highway, compared to 45 for a 2015 VW Jetta TDI. But since diesel costs more than regular, you'd actually pay about $50 a year more to fuel a Jetta TDI compared to the Civic. Even after VW fixes their diesels, the fuel cost math seems like an uphill climb at this point. After the fix, the VW diesel is still likely to have good low-end torque, but so will the Civic turbo. And it seems likely the Civic turbo will beat the Jetta turbo diesel for 0-60 acceleration.
Some thoughts on EPA/CARB and their role in this issue.
Trust but verify is an interesting idea. Why didn't VW verify that the emissions control work? Where was the head dog while all this was going on, or for that matter, what were the little dogs doing??? Why did VW hire dishonest people? Where were the checks and balances? What kind of QA/QC process do they have that allows 11 million vehicles to be sold with cheater software?
EPA & CARB are completely out-gunned by the private sector. Consider that EPA has to regulate all these companies/brands: Acura, Alfa Romeo, Audi, Bentley, BMW, Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Chrysler, Dodge, Fiat, Ford, GMC, Honda, Hyundai, Infiniti, Jaguar, Jeep, Kia, Land Rover, Lexus, Lincoln, Maserati, Mazda, Mercedes-Benz, Mini, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Porsche, Ram, Scion, Smart, Subaru, Toyota, Volkswagen, and Volvo.
EPA AQ regulates: Marine Remanufacture Kits, Large Engines, Non-road Large Compression Ignition (NRCI) (2012 - ), On-Highway Heavy Duty - Diesel and Gasoline (2012 - ), Early Large Engine (NRCI and On-Highway Heavy Duty - Diesel and Gasoline 2011 and Earlier), Non-road Small Spark Ignition (SI), Marine SI, Marine CI, Snowmobile, Locomotive, Large Spark Ignition, Non-road Evaporative Components...
EPA AQ regulates: 518 coal, 1,101 petroleum, 1,725 natural gas power plants (along with the states).
EPA AQ also has to deal with all the air monitoring and 50 squabbling states.
EPA has trouble matching the private sector for salaries. Makes it tough to get the best and brightest?
“In 2015, the EPA anticipates reviewing and approving more than 5,000 vehicle and engine emissions certification requests for over 4,100 different types of engines – a workload that has quadrupled over the past decade.” Did they get more money to deal with this? Of course not, a certain political party spends all their time trying to destroy EPA. If they spent even a bit more time using reason instead of beliefs things would get a lot better.
Good points, and yes the EPA is attempting to do all those things, but apparently they are doing a very poor job of it. Maybe they need to reassess their priorities and stop wasting money on things they shouldn't be involved in...like trying to control every piece of damp ground in the U.S. They seem to want all the power and none of the responsibility.
Regarding salaries, a recent study just concluded that the average gov. employee makes almost twice as much as someone in the private sector doing like work.
Of course not, a certain political party spends all their time trying to destroy EPA. If they spent even a bit more time using reason instead of beliefs things would get a lot better.
In response: If the certain political party quit using executive orders to expand the big government aspect of the EPA beyond what the Congress, the representatives of the people, puts into the law, the EPA might do a better job at other things. Instead EPA is being used as an arm of the green faction of a certain political party to buy votes. Hence the war on coal plants that are not polluting greatly because they have cleaned up drastically. But our power rates likely will go up because coal from WV and KY will be shipped to India and China and burned to pollute the world's air badly instead of being burned here in the Midwest to supplant natural gas and oil to generate electricity.
The EPA certainly can't be expected to have tested "Clean Diesel" beyond the lab when VW/Audi was intentially misleading them. Makes me wonder how many other manufacturers have mislead about mileage and pollution results on other engines...
With an incompetent crook and incompetent cop, one is far more likely to face accountability than the other.
If only there was a way to offshore the negative externalities of non-adblue diesels in the same way the negative externalities of battery production are moved outside the view of greenies.
Still haven't seen any substantive proof of resale values being harmed, funny. Although the professional victim set will claim they were saving the planet with a diesel, the realists among us know that was never true.
Regarding salaries, a recent study just concluded that the average gov. employee makes almost twice as much as someone in the private sector doing like work.
The 2016 Honda Civic turbo is rated 42 mpg on the highway, compared to 45 for a 2015 VW Jetta TDI. But since diesel costs more than regular, you'd actually pay about $50 a year more to fuel a Jetta TDI compared to the Civic. Even after VW fixes their diesels, the fuel cost math seems like an uphill climb at this point. After the fix, the VW diesel is still likely to have good low-end torque, but so will the Civic turbo. And it seems likely the Civic turbo will beat the Jetta turbo diesel for 0-60 acceleration.
Just a few comments. If you live in CA diesel has been less than RUG for about a year. Sometimes as much as a dollar a gallon less.
If you live where there are hills that have 70 MPH speed limit, you know how cars with CVT transmissions scream to make it up the hills. I have not driven a Honda for decades. I have driven a Subaru CVT that was horribly noisy on a long uphill pull. No thanks to that. A Jetta TDI which the dealer gave me as a loaner, pulled our long uphill grade home in high gear without a wimper.
So maybe in Florida or some other flat state the Honda would be ok. It does have less room both in the cab and trunk.
In the 26,000 miles I have on my VW Touareg TDI, I have spent $1780 less on fuel than the first 26,000 miles with my Toyota Sequoia. Not to mention the high priced service at the Toyota dealership. Which is free with the Touareg the first 48,000 miles. And the Sequoia was $2000 more than the Touareg. Hope the VW holds its value better than the Toyota. The Toyota cost me a total of 99 cents a mile to own for 6 years and 36,000 miles. Glad to be rid of it. It will be hard to find a suitable replacement for my VW TDI.
Regarding salaries, a recent study just concluded that the average gov. employee makes almost twice as much as someone in the private sector doing like work.
This was according to the U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis for 2014. Federal civilian workers had an average salary including benefits of around $120,000. Average salary and benefits for workers in the private sector was about $67,000. These are overall averages and it didn't mention for like work.
Regarding salaries, a recent study just concluded that the average gov. employee makes almost twice as much as someone in the private sector doing like work.
This was according to the U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis for 2014. Federal civilian workers had an average salary including benefits of around $120,000. Average salary and benefits for workers in the private sector was about $67,000. These are overall averages and it didn't mention for like work.
This was according to the U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis for 2014. Federal civilian workers had an average salary including benefits of around $120,000. Average salary and benefits for workers in the private sector was about $67,000. These are overall averages and it didn't mention for like work.
I wanted to comment about the recent VW scandal. Anybody who thinks there is going to be a "50% off fire sale on new VW TDIs at their local dealer is very much mistaken. TDI owners love their cars and certainly won't trade them in at a time when values are supposedly plummeting.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
“Early indications from auctions are that dealers are more hesitant to buy the VW diesel units, with sale prices falling 13 percent in the two weeks following VW’s announcement, compared to a 2-percent drop for the comparable gas-powered models,”
Anecdotally I don't think you're really increasing the ease or likelihood of finding a real sleeper in the TDI segment, due to the latest VW diesel fiasco. So for example, I still get messages left on the windshield asking if I want to sell the car. I have even had married couples and different people ring the doorbell to see if I want to sell,when they see TDI's parked in front. It is a bit of an eye raiser, but nothing scary.
Now it would really get the gears in my mind churning if someone left a note on my windshield saying: I see that you're dumb enough to have bought a TDI, do you want to take one of my hands for a good (cheap) price ? @ - 15% off low blue book, OBO? Ok, I just woke up from a good dream!
“Early indications from auctions are that dealers are more hesitant to buy the VW diesel units, with sale prices falling 13 percent in the two weeks following VW’s announcement, compared to a 2-percent drop for the comparable gas-powered models,”
Very logical dealers would not want to be stuck with the possibilities of a VW TDI. Trying to sell a vehicle that is in the middle of this fiasco could present some liabilities for the dealer. This statement matches my search, with only 4 late model Golf TDIs in the country.
Fleming specifically noted that the data on the diesel Audi A3, Beetle and Golf, as well as the gasoline A3, is fairly limited, so take those percent changes with a grain of salt.
However, I think it is an opportunity for the specialty car dealers to make some money. I remember during the years you could not buy a new VW diesel in CA, dealers were bringing them in with the 7500 miles on them and selling for more than new. I made $3000 doing that with a new 2005 Passat TDI wagon. I think it will be a long time before the automakers come up with a gasser that satisfies the diesel car people.
I see two " blood in the streets " scenarios that might be an ultimate best time to buy a used VW TDI/ any TDI for resale. Another VW corporate $8 billion set aside. A protracted haggling with the EPA/CARB for the" right fix/es". Right now strikes me as everybody's in the wait-and-see mode.
A large portion of luxury cars are leased. MB sells both the E350 4Matic gasser & E250 4Matic BlueTec. On their website, they have advertised lease specials for the E350 4Matic with an MSRP of $55,600 & the E250 BlueTec 4Matic with an MSRP of $55,150.
E350 Sport 4Matic - $658.69 per month for 36 months (Rolling the $3,949 down payment into the monthly payment as should be done)
E250 Sport 4Matic - $700.08 per month for 36 months (again, rolling the $3,999 down payment into the monthly payment.
Now most of us who research the daylights out of our purchases can get a much better deal whether we want the gasser or the diesel.
These are 10K per year leases. Using MBs numbers, the diesel will cost $1,490.04 more over a 36 month lease than a comparable gasser. Do the fuel economy numbers give the E250 an advantage over an E350 which has an almost $1,500 head start?
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
In the context of JUST the cost of lease per mile driven (.84), cpmd: ULSD (.06225) pales in comparison.
Leasing, by far is the most expensive way to use a car . BUT in that context, cheaper cpmd: overall still rules (like model). Of course, the real opportunity here is buying the car that's coming off of the lease.
I agree, but leasing is such a huge portion of the automobile business that it has to be recognized. Especially now that money is cheap and residuals are high.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
Well it isn't ! I did the math on the side of the diesel, You need to do the math on the side of the gassers . Then, compare/contrast! Despite being posted too far away's back, essentially that's what Fintail did when he leased the diesel. @ that time diesel was probably cheaper than like model gasser. So that was the reason why he tried the diesel.
So when he went to lease a new Mercedes-Benz, the gasser was (probably) cheaper, ergo gasser.
The key is always to run the numbers, for ones particular scenarios.!
So for example, that's why you see me running a consistent (12 yr/15,000 miles per year/180,000 mile) schtick, which gets to cpmd: total to x,y,z whatever (cost per mile driven)
So for example if you maintain a $.84 cpmd: lease, over 180,000 miles you're paying about $151,200. Vs .3064 cpmd: own
One conclusion, if you have to have "new every 2 " (jingoism, three years actually) are moe monies down and way higher cost per mile driven.
This is for the person who posted how a gasser F150 was better then TDI. Instead of charging one $ 5,000 premium for a 700 hundred pound weight reduction ? ...
The real question: wouldn't a TDI F150 be better than anyone of the gasser engine options ? Gee all of a sudden a $2,000 diesel premium diesel premium sounds downright cheap. Throw in a 700 # weight reduction and that's a value winner.!
Indeed one attractive thing about the 12 VW Touareg TDI,was over the last generation, it had shed 436 #'s. They were able to weave in better torsional rigidity, better mpg, guicker acceleration, faster and in less feet stopping, less wear & tear, engine tweaks- since it has less #'s to push, etc.
Here is a Motor Trend article for the poster who said that the torque of 2016 Honda 1.5 L turbo was better than the torque of 1 year older TDI . Let me ask (Jeopardy style), which is more powerful: gasser turbo @ 162 # feet of torque or TDI @ 236 # ft. ?
So the poster would have me conclude 46% more power is ....worse !!!?? More mpg is worse than less?
TMI
I did notice however, that over the 2004 Civic, the 2016 Civic has gotten more "piggy"
I'm sure the next thing the poster would have me do, rice it out by putting stickers on it for ??? .... more...torque ?
A Honda Civic sans 500 pounds, with Twin TDI in a Civic (like model) would wake me up ! Other than that, a compact sedan & with a gasser is SO way off the radar!
This is for the person who posted how a gasser F150 was better then TDI. Instead of charging one $ 5,000 premium for a 700 hundred pound weight reduction ? ...
The real question: wouldn't a TDI F150 be better than anyone of the gasser engine options ? Gee all of a sudden a $2,000 diesel premium diesel premium sounds downright cheap. Throw in a 700 # weight reduction and that's a value winner.!
That would be me that you're referring to. But you didn't actually quote, and that is NOT what I actually said.
I said that the torque curve on the twin turbo 2.7L gas engine in the new Ford F150 looked a lot like that of a diesel engine. A lot of torque starting at a low RPM, and then with a very broad and nearly flat curve.
I also said that tests performed by Fast Lane Trucks, pulling a 7,200 pound trailer up a mountain highway in Colorado revealed that the Dodge Ecodiesel was unable to maintain the speed limit all the way, while the Ford twin turbo gas engine could.
Yes, the Dodge Ecodiesel will get better gas mileage. But it is decidedly slower (I drove both, recently, I can testify).
And what's this nonsense about a $5,000 premium? The price of a new truck has gone up quite a bit over the last 2 to 3 years, that's true. But it's true across all brands, Ford, Chevy, Dodge. The Ford, with the aluminum body and significant weight reduction, cost me $1,200 more than a Chevy. Yes, taking any account all rebates / incentives / dealer discounts. And the Ford not only has the advantage of the weight reduction, it also has an engine with much newer technology, which produces more power and is much more fun to drive. And also getting better fuel mileage, about which I don't care, but many here do.
Right now, today, Dodge has the only half ton truck in America with a diesel engine. And that engine is underpowered, in my opinion. The new Nissan may change that equation. And the new Colorado / Canyon with the diesel option may be interesting. But 2 weeks ago, when I bought my new truck, those options were not available. As indeed, they are not available today.
A few years ago (2000 to 2007), I pulled a fifth wheel travel trailer weighing over 10k pounds. I purchased a brand new Ford F250 with the 7.3L diesel engine to haul that load around. I am open to the possibility of a diesel engine in a smaller truck, but the options just aren't there ... yet.
Doubt it. Gas Buddy says the cheapest RUG in California is $2.29. Diesel about the same lowest price, but if you hurry you can buy diesel for $4.69/ gallon in Los Angeles.
Somewhat off topic of your comment, but more on topic of diesel, I'm now starting to get the notion that I should start modifying my 2003 VW Jetta TDI! ? For very little moneies, because it's long in the tooth, I can pump up 155 # ft to 295 # ft. There is lot of anecdotal evidence that mpg would actually increased slightly, driven normally BEFORE mods.
Of course, all bets are off if you get on it a lot of the time.
This is for the person who posted how a gasser F150 was better then TDI. Instead of charging one $ 5,000 premium for a 700 hundred pound weight reduction ? ...
The real question: wouldn't a TDI F150 be better than anyone of the gasser engine options ? Gee all of a sudden a $2,000 diesel premium diesel premium sounds downright cheap. Throw in a 700 # weight reduction and that's a value winner.!
That would be me that you're referring to. But you didn't actually quote, and that is NOT what I actually said.
I said that the torque curve on the twin turbo 2.7L gas engine in the new Ford F150 looked a lot like that of a diesel engine. A lot of torque starting at a low RPM, and then with a very broad and nearly flat curve.
I also said that tests performed by Fast Lane Trucks, pulling a 7,200 pound trailer up a mountain highway in California revealed that the Dodge Ecodiesel was unable to maintain the speed limit all the way, while the Ford twin turbo gas engine could.
Yes, the Dodge Ecodiesel will get better gas mileage. But it is decidedly slower (I drove both, recently, I can testify).
And what's this nonsense about a $5,000 premium? The price of a new truck has gone up quite a bit over the last 2 to 3 years, that's true. But it's true across all brands, Ford, Chevy, Dodge. The Ford, with the aluminum body and significant weight reduction, cost me $1,200 more than a Chevy. Yes, taking any account all rebates / incentives / dealer discounts. And the Ford not only has the advantage of the weight reduction, it also has an engine with much newer technology, which produces more power and is much more fun to drive. And also getting better fuel mileage, about which I don't care, but many here do.
Right now, today, Dodge has the only half ton truck in America with a diesel engine. And that engine is underpowered, in my opinion. The new Nissan may change that equation. And the new Colorado / Canyon with the diesel option may be interesting. But 2 weeks ago, when I bought my new truck, those options were not available. As indeed, they are not available today.
A few years ago (2000 to 2007), I pulled a fifth wheel travel trailer weighing over 10k pounds. I purchased a brand new Ford F250 with the 7.3L diesel engine to haul that load around. I am open to the possibility of a diesel engine in a smaller truck, but the options just aren't there ... yet.
No I did not quote you. You seldom do me. So what's the big deal ?
Yes, I am glad you agree with me that a weight reduction premium IS total nonsense. Again you manage to talk all the way around the posed question. That tells me what I already know.
Since they are not very many diesel 1/2 ton PU trucks, I not sure why you getting all knotted up about the issue. I guess 1/2 ton PU truck drivers are happy being the brunt of the majority of environmental gas guzzling abuse & jokes. It works for me!
So for example, one of the options that I had posted & thought the best for me in a prior post would actually be best: take emissions, performance and mpg upgrade.
Why? The 2009 TDI would have the lowest bluebook value, $8,409 ( to 2015 model $21,474) , They will have to slap a EPA/CARB 7 yr/70,000 mile warranty on it, in addition. @ a cost of app $2,500 (total cost of the work) ( not to owners) The cpmd: depreciation/ ownership, would remain on track & LOW!
So even if I figure it out on 180,000 miles and total vehicle cost, it would be .11 cents per mile driven. If I sell now & get $8,409 back, cost =.105 cents per mile. If I keep it 180,000 miles & get $6,000 on sale,= .0778 cents per mile: depreciation/ownership.
They will unlikely give me the average @ $14,466. If they do that, that will put it at .05 cents per mile driven. In that case, take the money and run. But in the case of a CA replacement vehicle!!! Yes Haw ! ! That would do another 12 yr/180,000 reset.
Buy/ get another diesel? You betcha! Perhaps they will find something wrong with that new one and start the process all over again !
So here's hoping I get the average $$'s or replacement vehicle!! Realistically, I'm not holding my breath . If it's a replacement vehicle, make mine a 2016/2017 Golf TDI !
I also can't forget the potential avalanche in VW's stock prices that may trigger IF VW has to cough up another $6.9 billion!! Then, I'll be able to make another Bentley $ equivalent!
We Be SCAM MIM!
... " Yet there’s little evidence linking diesel particulate matter with an increase in mortality in California, which has among the lowest age-adjusted death rates in the country.
Studies show a weak association between mortality and particulate matter in Appalachia and the Midwest, but virtually no correlation in the western United States. This may be because the chemical composition of particulate matter—which can be generated from dust, wildfires, pollen, power plants, mining and farming—varies by region. Diesel exhaust makes up a small fraction of these fine airborne particles.
Notably, the epidemiological study that CARB used to justify its truck rule in 2008 had to be corrected after it was revealed that the report’s lead staff scientist had purchased his statistics doctorate for $1,000 from a diploma mill. CARB later revised its estimates of premature deaths prevented by the rule down to 3,500 from 9,400. After discovering the deceit, CARB Chairwoman Mary Nichols failed to inform the board and went ahead and propounded the regulations for adoption.
In other words, the regulations under which EPA and CARB are prosecuting truckers are based on dubious science. But when the cause is green virtue, such details don’t matter."...
Doubt it. Gas Buddy says the cheapest RUG in California is $2.29. Diesel about the same lowest price, but if you hurry you can buy diesel for $4.69/ gallon in Los Angeles.
You can buy it for that price if you want. I recently saw 4.25 or so for RUG in Los Angeles Downtown. Meanwhile, I use top tier gas and am paying under 3 bucks per gallon for RUG and a bit less than that for diesel.
Last time I filled up, that is; I'm not quite sure of actual prices at the moment since the TDI only gets filled up every 2 weeks or so, and my C-Max Energi only gets filled up every month and a half unless we go on a trip with it.
BTW, we took the C-Max to Ojai for their "Ojai Day" this past weekend. Big environmental bunch up there, and the wife was afraid to take the TDI lest someone egg it or worse. I got 49 MPG round trip with the Energi, which is probably a bit better than the TDI would produce in this case.
Comments
misled the testing results. This also hints at why a fix may not be the answers--
many started suggesting how to avoid the fix to keep the higher mileage and \
power talked about here OR how to undo any fix to regain the higher mileage
and power at the expense of pollution.
http://jalopnik.com/volkswagen-bragged-about-the-effects-of-diesel-cheating-1737040865
quote:
"Volkswagen Bragged About The Effects Of Diesel Cheating For Years"
"When it was revealed that VW had installed cheating devices on diesel vehicles as far back as 2008, it was played off as a mistake unknown to most of the company. But back in 2008, VW’s marketing enjoyed exploiting the performance of the illegal technology, bragging that vehicles outperformed EPA testing in the real world.
As Consumer Reports points out, a 2008 press release shows Volkswagen bragging about the discrepancy of their diesel models’ real-world performance when compared to EPA testing:
“While the Environmental Protection Agency estimates the Jetta TDI at an economical 29 mpg city and 40 mpg highway, Volkswagen went a step further to show real world fuel economy of the Jetta TDI. Leading third-party certifier, AMCI, tested the Jetta TDI and found it performed 24 percent better in real world conditions, achieving 38 mpg in the city and 44 mpg on the highway.”
And CR says it’s these better-than-sticker estimates that pushed many people to go out and buy a diesel model over their gasoline and hybrid counterparts.
Consumer Reports also looked back at 16 diesel models they recently tested and found that only Volkswagen-branded diesel models exceeded the EPA-estimated MPG numbers. The signs have been there all along!
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
A lot of folks also don't know (tmi,obviously) that the vendor for VW that manufactured the emission system for the 2009 VW TDI's was based in New York State. Nexus? Then NY Senator H. Clinton was instrumental in making sure that particular NY vendor won the VW TDI emissions contract! (Non ad blue) Also if you recall me posting, the IRS gave the 2009 Jetta TDI a $1,200 tax CREDIT ! Coincidently, with no charge of conspiracy, that $ figure was the amount the vendor sold each unit to VW for.
So the logic goes : if you're dealing with somebody "made," what do you have to fear ? How much more "LEGAL" can you be in dealing with then NY Senator H. Clinton ?
IF the word got out that NY Senator H. Clinton was godmothering this, do you think because of the political nature of the EPA/CARB that everybody figured .... I know nut ting! Of course, I know nothing!
http://news.yahoo.com/german-investigators-put-together-special-team-vw-case-094145327--finance.html
And CR says it’s these better-than-sticker estimates that pushed many people to go out and buy a diesel model over their gasoline and hybrid counterparts.
Friend of mine gets 42mpg mixed driving and 50 mpg highway driving on his Jetta TDI.
All those hypocrites who claim they bought a TDI because of 'Clean Diesel " are just out to grab compensation from the VW.
Do I want VW to fix it? No & Yes!! ?? If EPA/Carb exempts it by title for life! NO! I like how it runs now! If EPA/CARB is going to do the [non-permissible content removed] thing, because they certified it @ least 3 times and now want to punish someone who did NOT do the crime, you betcha.
It would be especially true if the fix degrades functioning!
Again to state the obvious, I do know how the 2.1 L MB BLUE TECH & the VW 3.0L Touareg w Ad Blue run.
If you get 50 mpg (not out of the question) on the highway driving 60mph and use 10 gallons that would be 500 miles. We ve never gotten 500 miles on a single tank, a little over 400 yes, Most of the time when we hit 350 miles on a tank I m looking for a gas station where I ll put in about 7.5 gallons.
Be interesting to see how many get in on the class action lawsuits, to make the attorneys richer? Also be interesting to see how many trade in the VW TDI on a lower mileage gasser? So far they are not coming out of the woodwork for sale.
Just think of all the time and energy they will need to expend in the next year while their competitors are using their money to build better and cheaper cars and SUVs.
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/10/15/prices-of-used-vw-diesels-starting-to-drop-in-some-areas/ Another interesting headline. Again, people are not going to be happy when dealers start giving people less money for their trade-in.
http://www.carmax.com/search?ANa=4294960949&D=50&zip=17078&N=4294963078+4294963075+4294960611&Q=0320d4b0-07f4-4584-ae88-2f0e81ef80fd&Ep=search:results:results%20page
Anyone think the VW used prices are down ? Look at this link
I don't see any loss for VW TDI sellers. Looks like about $2000 more for a TDI than a gasser both Passat SEL models. I am watching for a 2014-15 Golf TDI and the prices are higher than I was quoted new 8 months ago. According to CarMax only 4 Golf TDI 2014-15 for sale in the entire USA. And NO bargains that I see.
All the VW attorneys have to say is we will give you high blue Book and see how many takers. So much for their class action lawsuits.
This article might say it more directly and give a wider perspective!
..."In September, VW was the market share leader in the auto industry in EU. It posted 23% of the market. As a contrast GM (NYSE: GM), the leading car company in the U.S. has an 18% share in its home market. For the time being, the engine scandal which has gripped VW has not battered sales in its home market."...
http://247wallst.com/autos/2015/10/18/vw-keeps-23-market-share-in-europe/
GM has also had the advantage of bankruptcy ! This is HUGE, almost beyond measure! This is not even to mention a broad and deep taxpayer BAIL OUT!!! Did I already say: this also HUGE HUGE beyond measure!?
To repeat another thing that has been already noted, VW has approximately 2.5% of US market share. So (huge) IF 2015 sales hit 17.5 M, & IF VW diesels are app 23%, THEN TDI's are projected to be 100,000 US market units.
So if anybody else but me is inclined to pull out their CHEAP crack cue laters, .... 2015 TDI's are app .00575 % !!! In a sound bite ...close to NOT measurable!!! This is a GREAT year! So if you take the 425,000 TDI's affected, in 6 ears since 2009, that is less than 70,834 units per year!
So y'all do chicken little proud and keep clucking!
Trust but verify is an interesting idea. Why didn't VW verify that the emissions control work? Where was the head dog while all this was going on, or for that matter, what were the little dogs doing??? Why did VW hire dishonest people? Where were the checks and balances? What kind of QA/QC process do they have that allows 11 million vehicles to be sold with cheater software?
EPA & CARB are completely out-gunned by the private sector. Consider that EPA has to regulate all these companies/brands: Acura, Alfa Romeo, Audi, Bentley, BMW, Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Chrysler, Dodge, Fiat, Ford, GMC, Honda, Hyundai, Infiniti, Jaguar, Jeep, Kia, Land Rover, Lexus, Lincoln, Maserati, Mazda, Mercedes-Benz, Mini, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Porsche, Ram, Scion, Smart, Subaru, Toyota, Volkswagen, and Volvo.
EPA AQ regulates: Marine Remanufacture Kits, Large Engines, Non-road Large Compression Ignition (NRCI) (2012 - ), On-Highway Heavy Duty - Diesel and Gasoline (2012 - ), Early Large Engine (NRCI and On-Highway Heavy Duty - Diesel and Gasoline 2011 and Earlier), Non-road Small Spark Ignition (SI), Marine SI, Marine CI, Snowmobile, Locomotive, Large Spark Ignition, Non-road Evaporative Components...
EPA AQ regulates: 518 coal, 1,101 petroleum, 1,725 natural gas power plants (along with the states).
EPA AQ also has to deal with all the air monitoring and 50 squabbling states.
All this on a budget of about a billion. http://www2.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2014-03/documents/fy15_bib.pdf Compare that to how much all the private sector companies can spend.
EPA has trouble matching the private sector for salaries. Makes it tough to get the best and brightest?
“In 2015, the EPA anticipates reviewing and approving more than 5,000 vehicle and engine emissions certification requests for over 4,100 different types of engines – a workload that has quadrupled over the past decade.” Did they get more money to deal with this? Of course not, a certain political party spends all their time trying to destroy EPA. If they spent even a bit more time using reason instead of beliefs things would get a lot better.
And finally, http://www.businessinsider.com/afp-french-police-raid-volkswagen-offices-over-emissions-scandal-2015-10 (probably old news by now)
Regarding salaries, a recent study just concluded that the average gov. employee makes almost twice as much as someone in the private sector doing like work.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
If the certain political party quit using executive orders to expand the big government aspect of the EPA beyond what the Congress, the representatives of the people, puts into the law, the EPA might do a better job at other things. Instead EPA is being used as an arm of the green faction of a certain political party to buy votes. Hence the war on coal plants that are not polluting greatly because they have cleaned up drastically. But our power rates likely will go up because coal from WV and KY will be shipped to India and China and burned to pollute the world's air badly instead of being burned here in the Midwest to supplant natural gas and oil to generate electricity.
The EPA certainly can't be expected to have tested "Clean Diesel" beyond the lab when VW/Audi was intentially misleading them. Makes me wonder how many other manufacturers have mislead about mileage and pollution results on other engines...
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Thank goodness the election will be over tomorrow eh?
If only there was a way to offshore the negative externalities of non-adblue diesels in the same way the negative externalities of battery production are moved outside the view of greenies.
Still haven't seen any substantive proof of resale values being harmed, funny. Although the professional victim set will claim they were saving the planet with a diesel, the realists among us know that was never true.
If you live where there are hills that have 70 MPH speed limit, you know how cars with CVT transmissions scream to make it up the hills. I have not driven a Honda for decades. I have driven a Subaru CVT that was horribly noisy on a long uphill pull. No thanks to that. A Jetta TDI which the dealer gave me as a loaner, pulled our long uphill grade home in high gear without a wimper.
So maybe in Florida or some other flat state the Honda would be ok. It does have less room both in the cab and trunk.
In the 26,000 miles I have on my VW Touareg TDI, I have spent $1780 less on fuel than the first 26,000 miles with my Toyota Sequoia. Not to mention the high priced service at the Toyota dealership. Which is free with the Touareg the first 48,000 miles. And the Sequoia was $2000 more than the Touareg. Hope the VW holds its value better than the Toyota. The Toyota cost me a total of 99 cents a mile to own for 6 years and 36,000 miles. Glad to be rid of it. It will be hard to find a suitable replacement for my VW TDI.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
How VW gas & diesel prices are faring at auction (autoremarketing.com)
Now it would really get the gears in my mind churning if someone left a note on my windshield saying: I see that you're dumb enough to have bought a TDI, do you want to take one of my hands for a good (cheap) price ? @ - 15% off low blue book, OBO? Ok, I just woke up from a good dream!
Fleming specifically noted that the data on the diesel Audi A3, Beetle and Golf, as well as the gasoline A3, is fairly limited, so take those percent changes with a grain of salt.
However, I think it is an opportunity for the specialty car dealers to make some money. I remember during the years you could not buy a new VW diesel in CA, dealers were bringing them in with the 7500 miles on them and selling for more than new. I made $3000 doing that with a new 2005 Passat TDI wagon. I think it will be a long time before the automakers come up with a gasser that satisfies the diesel car people.
Meanwhile SLOW news diesel day!
http://news.yahoo.com/vw-probe-targets-fewer-10-german-prosecutors-001754379.html
Got to love some the caveats in this article!
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/19/business/the-owner-has-a-crucial-part-in-volkswagen-diesel-repair.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&_r=0
E350 Sport 4Matic - $658.69 per month for 36 months (Rolling the $3,949 down payment into the monthly payment as should be done)
E250 Sport 4Matic - $700.08 per month for 36 months (again, rolling the $3,999 down payment into the monthly payment.
Now most of us who research the daylights out of our purchases can get a much better deal whether we want the gasser or the diesel.
These are 10K per year leases. Using MBs numbers, the diesel will cost $1,490.04 more over a 36 month lease than a comparable gasser. Do the fuel economy numbers give the E250 an advantage over an E350 which has an almost $1,500 head start?
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
Leasing, by far is the most expensive way to use a car . BUT in that context, cheaper cpmd: overall still rules (like model). Of course, the real opportunity here is buying the car that's coming off of the lease.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
How is diesel cheaper then the gasser by the MSRP and more expensive as a lease payment ?
This is the price in my area !
LEASE $589 per month for 36 months with $5,383 due at signing on the 2016 E-Class E250 BlueTEC 4MATIC® Sport Sedan
$589 per month for 36 months
$5,383 cash due at signing
So when he went to lease a new Mercedes-Benz, the gasser was (probably) cheaper, ergo gasser.
The key is always to run the numbers, for ones particular scenarios.!
So for example, that's why you see me running a consistent (12 yr/15,000 miles per year/180,000 mile) schtick, which gets to cpmd: total to x,y,z whatever (cost per mile driven)
So for example if you maintain a $.84 cpmd: lease, over 180,000 miles you're paying about $151,200. Vs .3064 cpmd: own
One conclusion, if you have to have "new every 2 " (jingoism, three years actually) are moe monies down and way higher cost per mile driven.
The real question: wouldn't a TDI F150 be better than anyone of the gasser engine options ? Gee all of a sudden a $2,000 diesel premium diesel premium sounds downright cheap. Throw in a 700 # weight reduction and that's a value winner.!
Indeed one attractive thing about the 12 VW Touareg TDI,was over the last generation, it had shed 436 #'s. They were able to weave in better torsional rigidity, better mpg, guicker acceleration, faster and in less feet stopping, less wear & tear, engine tweaks- since it has less #'s to push, etc.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/fords-f-150-lots-aluminum-130003575.html
Here is a Motor Trend article for the poster who said that the torque of 2016 Honda 1.5 L turbo was better than the torque of 1 year older TDI . Let me ask (Jeopardy style), which is more powerful: gasser turbo @ 162 # feet of torque or TDI @ 236 # ft. ?
So the poster would have me conclude 46% more power is ....worse !!!?? More mpg is worse than less?
TMI
I did notice however, that over the 2004 Civic, the 2016 Civic has gotten more "piggy"
Ehttp://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/2016-honda-civic-first-test-review/
I'm sure the next thing the poster would have me do, rice it out by putting stickers on it for ??? .... more...torque ?
A Honda Civic sans 500 pounds, with Twin TDI in a Civic (like model) would wake me up ! Other than that, a compact sedan & with a gasser is SO way off the radar!
UPDATE! Speaking about reading my mind! ...
http://jalopnik.com/the-new-honda-civics-toughest-competition-is-the-crosso-1737306770
That has not been the case in northern CAL. Diesel is priced about 10 cents higher than regular and this trend has been consistent for some time.
So for example I fill up at the app halfway point (Sacramento/Dixon, CA ) for the SOS/DD trek .
ULSD $2.49, RUG $2.43
The 2004 Honda Civic is getting $ 1.99 RUG, while its driver would rather be buying $2.21 ULSD.
I said that the torque curve on the twin turbo 2.7L gas engine in the new Ford F150 looked a lot like that of a diesel engine. A lot of torque starting at a low RPM, and then with a very broad and nearly flat curve.
I also said that tests performed by Fast Lane Trucks, pulling a 7,200 pound trailer up a mountain highway in Colorado revealed that the Dodge Ecodiesel was unable to maintain the speed limit all the way, while the Ford twin turbo gas engine could.
Yes, the Dodge Ecodiesel will get better gas mileage. But it is decidedly slower (I drove both, recently, I can testify).
And what's this nonsense about a $5,000 premium? The price of a new truck has gone up quite a bit over the last 2 to 3 years, that's true. But it's true across all brands, Ford, Chevy, Dodge. The Ford, with the aluminum body and significant weight reduction, cost me $1,200 more than a Chevy. Yes, taking any account all rebates / incentives / dealer discounts. And the Ford not only has the advantage of the weight reduction, it also has an engine with much newer technology, which produces more power and is much more fun to drive. And also getting better fuel mileage, about which I don't care, but many here do.
Right now, today, Dodge has the only half ton truck in America with a diesel engine. And that engine is underpowered, in my opinion. The new Nissan may change that equation. And the new Colorado / Canyon with the diesel option may be interesting. But 2 weeks ago, when I bought my new truck, those options were not available. As indeed, they are not available today.
A few years ago (2000 to 2007), I pulled a fifth wheel travel trailer weighing over 10k pounds. I purchased a brand new Ford F250 with the 7.3L diesel engine to haul that load around. I am open to the possibility of a diesel engine in a smaller truck, but the options just aren't there ... yet.
Of course, all bets are off if you get on it a lot of the time.
Yes, I am glad you agree with me that a weight reduction premium IS total nonsense. Again you manage to talk all the way around the posed question. That tells me what I already know.
Since they are not very many diesel 1/2 ton PU trucks, I not sure why you getting all knotted up about the issue. I guess 1/2 ton PU truck drivers are happy being the brunt of the majority of environmental gas guzzling abuse & jokes. It works for me!
http://news.yahoo.com/lawsuits-could-force-vw-buy-back-cheating-diesels-160057143--finance.html
So for example, one of the options that I had posted & thought the best for me in a prior post would actually be best: take emissions, performance and mpg upgrade.
Why? The 2009 TDI would have the lowest bluebook value, $8,409 ( to 2015 model $21,474) , They will have to slap a EPA/CARB 7 yr/70,000 mile warranty on it, in addition. @ a cost of app $2,500 (total cost of the work) ( not to owners) The cpmd: depreciation/ ownership, would remain on track & LOW!
So even if I figure it out on 180,000 miles and total vehicle cost, it would be .11 cents per mile driven. If I sell now & get $8,409 back, cost =.105 cents per mile. If I keep it 180,000 miles & get $6,000 on sale,= .0778 cents per mile: depreciation/ownership.
They will unlikely give me the average @ $14,466. If they do that, that will put it at .05 cents per mile driven. In that case, take the money and run. But in the case of a CA replacement vehicle!!! Yes Haw ! ! That would do another 12 yr/180,000 reset.
Buy/ get another diesel? You betcha!
So here's hoping I get the average $$'s or replacement vehicle!! Realistically, I'm not holding my breath . If it's a replacement vehicle, make mine a 2016/2017 Golf TDI !
I also can't forget the potential avalanche in VW's stock prices that may trigger IF VW has to cough up another $6.9 billion!! Then, I'll be able to make another Bentley $ equivalent!
We Be SCAM MIM!
... " Yet there’s little evidence linking diesel particulate matter with an increase in mortality in California, which has among the lowest age-adjusted death rates in the country.
Studies show a weak association between mortality and particulate matter in Appalachia and the Midwest, but virtually no correlation in the western United States. This may be because the chemical composition of particulate matter—which can be generated from dust, wildfires, pollen, power plants, mining and farming—varies by region. Diesel exhaust makes up a small fraction of these fine airborne particles.
Notably, the epidemiological study that CARB used to justify its truck rule in 2008 had to be corrected after it was revealed that the report’s lead staff scientist had purchased his statistics doctorate for $1,000 from a diploma mill. CARB later revised its estimates of premature deaths prevented by the rule down to 3,500 from 9,400. After discovering the deceit, CARB Chairwoman Mary Nichols failed to inform the board and went ahead and propounded the regulations for adoption.
In other words, the regulations under which EPA and CARB are prosecuting truckers are based on dubious science. But when the cause is green virtue, such details don’t matter."...
http://www.wsj.com/articles/californias-diesel-rule-scam-1445212223
LOL! I can't even make this stuff up !
2013 Jetta TDI 0-60: 8.4 seconds
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/final-scoring-performance-data-and-complete-specs-page-6
2016 Civic 1.5T 0-60 : 6.8 seconds
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2016-honda-civic-sedan-15l-turbo-test-review
"...the Jetta — and its sibling the Golf — have emissions similar to those of a typical modern 18-wheeler..."
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/19/business/the-owner-has-a-crucial-part-in-volkswagen-diesel-repair.html?_r=0
Last time I filled up, that is; I'm not quite sure of actual prices at the moment since the TDI only gets filled up every 2 weeks or so, and my C-Max Energi only gets filled up every month and a half unless we go on a trip with it.
BTW, we took the C-Max to Ojai for their "Ojai Day" this past weekend. Big environmental bunch up there, and the wife was afraid to take the TDI lest someone egg it or worse. I got 49 MPG round trip with the Energi, which is probably a bit better than the TDI would produce in this case.