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Those lease rates published above are also high - I'd only agree to such a monthly on one with much less up front, maybe 80% less. Lease specials are like MSRPs - open to negotiation. One can do better than published figures.
Regarding mo monies, indeed, if one is going to hold for more than about 8 years, buy. If one is going to get bored in 5, I think it is usually better to lease.
http://jalopnik.com/did-one-company-spot-volkswagens-diesel-deception-six-y-1737309474
Keep in mind that the results are totally suspect because they don't mention a word about 97% to 98% of the rest of the GASSERS. Municipalities will say that 5% of the PVF causes the majority of the gross pollution, again 97 to 98% gassers . So for example, IF that is true, that would mean that .015% of diesels MAXIMUM might hit the suspect list out of 1.65M. So even in this rarified group of gross polluters, it's easy to see that diesel cars potential is very, very, very low.
So one totally false assumption is that the majority of gassers are pure as the driven snow.
SOS/DD. Crisis du jour. Go after those on political hit lists.
Here is a California example . Current estimates @ 33M registered vehicles, gassers @ 97% to 98%. One article that was posted on the site said that there are 70,000 affected California VW diesel vehicles. The math would indicate the percentage at .00212 %. % wise, this is the literal drop in the bucket, minuscule.
5 times to 40 times is a HUGE, HUGE spread. So there will be part of the population that will be in complete compliance. In the worst case, if a certain population of the drivers actually drive LIKE the EPA test??!!! Indeed whether or not the BMW X3 was driven just like the EPA test, the fact of the matter DIESELs ( the one tested anyway) can easily comply. Seems to me the issue was cost control.
Remember you all, the tested sample out of 425,000 "affected TDI units" are only two. So, on a practical basis, how can you get a SPREAD of 5 to 40 times? Or does that really mean one of 2 tested was 5 times over and the other one,#2/2 tested was 40 times over???? This notion approaches total absurdity or another example of an out and out LIE !! This means you are basing a criminal penalty & scientific conclusion on a sample of .00000471 %.. The other side of it : everybody is COMPLETELY silent about whether or not all of the gassers 97 to 98% can meet the current standard of .07 g / per mile. Other articles, while they do not give exact numbers/%'s, indicate that the majority of the GASSER passenger vehicle fleet does NOT comply with the 2008 .07g/mile standard.
Just the fact that there is a (HUGE,HUGE,HUGE) range that one could fall in the smog test for passing should tell one something very fishy about all of this!
So with all the VW "diesel fiasco " clarification articles that I have read, right now I am just fine with VW coming up with US last place and further down the pipe hardware @ software remedies for the 2009 Jetta TDI. TBD, but in-line with EPA/CARB emissions laws, the warrantee should be 7 years and 70,000 miles. Cost per mile driven wise, I'm actually hoping for the average priced buyback. But if they offer a new car under CA law, (YIPPIE YAW HOO!) make mine a GOLF TDI! Or maybe by then I might throw the 12 Touareg TDI into the mix?
5 months ago my daughter did a 2,600 miles cross- country trip in a 2004 Honda Civic, with her sister. Somehow recently, she and I got on the subject of cross-country travel.
Long story short and on-topic, IF it was a choice between the 2004 Honda Civic or anyone of the diesels, she would pick a diesel. She has been up-and-down the Pacific Coast,@ least 4 times in the 2003 Jetta TDI. @ least twice in the 2009 Jetta TDI, & probably equally in other gassers.(she's been out of the house since 18 yrs old, so I don't know other approximates) So she's not a gas/diesel noob.
While the 2004 Civic has been an absolute trooper of a car, it has taken more dollars to maintain @ operate the same (187,000) miles as the 2003 Jetta TDI. In effect, it is less durable. By definition, it is also less reliable.
So for example, we do 20,000 miles OCI's. @ that point it has used a minimum of 1qt and needing another. We do 30,000 miles OCI's on the diesels, because remarkably (I did not see that as remarkable until I got the Honda) the 2003 Jetta TDI needs only 1/4 to 3/4 of a qt,aka a lot less. This is probably TMI, but M 1 oil's are used in both vehicles.
This might make a lot of our diesel skeptics laugh, but I'm the only one out of the four in the family that likes the (gasser) 2004 Honda Civic ! ? They could care less about diesels!? But they sure don't mind driving them? They also like the higher mpg. Go figure?
http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/business/2015/10/21/complex-new-transmissions-causing-headaches-for-drivers.html
Having said that, the 6 speed DSG, 7/ 8 speed auto transmissions for three diesels have been troopers. Needless to say, the 5 speed MT has been flawless.
Off-topic, but on the 2004 Honda Civic, I am holding my breath because my Honda guru has told me that IF the automatic transmission were to fail, it will fail normally before 250,000 miles. The jury is still out on the CVT's.
Any sort of reasonable reliability, durabilty findings/conclusions on the turbo 2016 Honda is easily 5 to 10 years & 180,000 miles out. Since Honda has always done a wonderful job on their MT's, I would surmise that they probably put the best one technologically on this new example.
I am also wondering out loud, since "the ricer age segment" has already come, long gone and are easily 15 to 20 years older. "The fast & furious" movie was produced in 2001.
"A modern diesel car pumps out more toxic pollution than a bus or heavy truck, according to new data, a situation described as a “disgrace” by one MEP."
Diesel cars emit up to four times more toxic pollution than a bus, data reveals (theguardian.com)
If the data holds up upon review and gets widely reported somewhere other than in @fintail's favorite rag, it would really be a sooty black eye for diesel.
"Our outlook for diesel remains unchanged. I think it is too early to look and make any judgments on that," Barra told analysts on an earnings conference call."
GM's CEO says no change in diesel demand expectations due VW (streetinsider.com)
Meanwhile, all of VW's diesels in the EU that use the EA 189/Euro 5 engine are off the table - mostly A3 and Golf TDIs, but actual numbers haven't been reported.
Volkswagen halts sales of European TDI models (digitaltrends.com)
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German government will not let VW go under. EPA emission limits are just an arbitrary figure which VW does not have respect anywhere in the world. No other country in the World is going to challenge the German government. It will be a trade war.
Even in USA there will be a deal struck with the Federal Government and the EPA.
Otherwise Germany will boycott American goods most notably stop all Boeing orders and buy Airbus.
I am willing to bet, there will be a compromise with the EPA or a long drawn out court battle if VW refuses to pay any fines to the EPA or the Feds .
Worst comes to worst, VW walks out of USA lock stock and barrel without paying a single dollar in compensation/fines/recall and it will not dent their bottom line
If Germany were smart, they would call our wind and solar bluff also ! The smartest thing everybody can do: EXEMPT ALL of the US market's 425,000 VW diesel's. Yes, worst case, slap em on the limp wrist @ say bad boys/girls/it's/ transgender and move on.
So for example, IF they spend upwards of $2,500 per car to fix the problem, or are forced to do a $15,000 per case buy back. IF it is true that the VW A loses money rather than VW Corp's $400 to $600 a car, they can stay out of our market for @ least six years to 38 years for the dismal 2.5 % US market share VW A has! Indeed as you say, VW Corp would acutually make MORE money by getting OUT of US markets!
So what would happen if Germany cancels six years to 38 years of Boeing airplane orders, etc.,etc.? Anybody with half a brain knows that one Boeing aircraft pollutes more than passenger car diesels,(like gals of fuel expenditures). It is also done@ 0 to 50,000 feet, as opposed to car diesels @ zero to say 10,000 feet, which is far far worse! (As in exponentially worse) so for example if the average aircraft idle consumptionis 1000 gallons per hour, that's 2.67 years of fuel or 40,000 miles.
Cancel the Iranian deal? Geez everybody & their brothers wants to deal with / do bit niss wid Iran. Oh and would we rather all of the German auto plants go to now Mexico or where ever, instead of parts of the US ? WE don't even put domestic auto plants in ! !!
VW could walk out of USA and start business with Iran and built plants there. So could most other German industries. Obama can only watch impotently . German labor unions (IG Metal) are as strong as the UAW here and will not roll over and watch Obama rob their livelihood.
What kind of revisionist history is this? Private companies actually discovered the issue ! ? Geez this was what 6 yrs to 2 years ago?
Isn't this a good reason for a Prius ? What are we talking 15 miles a gallon ? Well it does have the new 8 speed Aisin automatic transmission !
http://news.yahoo.com/king-off-road-toyotas-2016-8-seater-land-163858477.html
But VW isn't going away. Their diesels may though.
I have zero incentive to switch to EV !? In fact, 0% incentive is a lie! The electrical power company is already penalizing me for using "too much". They might start threatening me if I go EV. To drive home the point they've been send me energy reports ! It is impossible for me to go "off grid" as we are enjoined from installing a solar array. Even if they UN enjoin us, given my bills, it will take about 29.2 years to break even. So do I reasonably think it will not need any repairs during that time frame ?
Chattanooga would be a great place to play with this EV stuff. Lots of TVA power, okay sunshine, lots of experience with electric buses since '91 (CS Monitor) and the city owned electric utility is no slouch either - want 10 Gig net?
Kia or Hyundai will gratefully buy up the plant with pleasure.
Anyone laying bets that TDIs will get exemption in USA / Only the new model year 2016 will be asked to be modified.
International trade will not be held hostage to jumped up EPA/ CARB/ CAFE buul crap.
VW’s problems troubling for Chattanooga (AJC.com)
At least 2.5% VW were bought by Americans this year.
Elon Musk donates millions to Democratic Super Pacs .
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Phaeton
And I was just saying these VERY things a couple of post back!? Did anybody else notice a familiar quoted source?
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-10-21/vw-offers-deals-to-prop-up-u-s-sales-after-emissions-scandal
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-10-22/vw-needs-hardware-fix-for-3-million-engines-in-diesel-recall
"VW's emissions retrofit may be among costliest recalls ever
....Volkswagen will have to find a place for a multigallon urea tank. They may have to drill through sheet metal to create a filler neck that’s convenient for consumers who would need to replenish the liquid every three or four months. It may cost thousands of dollars per car, he said.
The urea technology has been used by most other automakers to meet ever-stricter pollution standards by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency and the California Air Resources Board. Volkswagen itself has been using it in the U.S. since introducing a reworked EA 288 engine on models like the Passat, Golf, Beetle and Jetta in the 2015 model year.
The EA 288 was designed to accommodate a modular exhaust-gas treatment system. That could help, too. Volkswagen may have parts made for other vehicles that can be used for the older models needing new hardware, which would reduce the costs.
“It’s going to require an uncomfortable amount of hacking at the car,” said Bill Visnic, an independent automotive analyst based in Weirton, W.Va.
“There’s no real pretty way to put it. You’re going to have to drill some holes and run some lines under the car. You’ve got to find someplace to put the tank. It’s going to add up pretty quickly.”
....Linford Berry, owner of Mountain Valley Motors, a Volkswagen specialist in Dayton, Virginia, said adding a urea tank system to a customer’s Volkswagen TDI could cost more than $3,500 in his shop....."
http://www.autonews.com/article/20151022/COPY01/310229965/vws-emissions-retrofit-may-be-among-costliest-recalls-ever
"An employee stands on the Golf production line at VW's factory in Wolfsburg. VW workers are angry at the software manipulation by some of the company's engineers."
"The deals have helped sales roughly keep pace with October 2014, said Randy Hiley, who owns Volkswagen dealerships in Texas and Alabama. Still, he said he’s worried that publicity about the emissions scandal and a lack of diesels will continue to hurt sales.
Hiley said Volkswagen has given dealers cash to help them take care of customers, including more than $80,000 to his Texas dealership. They can provide loaner cars, use the money to give buyers a better deal without sacrificing dealer profit or just keep the cash if they have to take diesel cars on trade-in and can’t sell them until the automaker comes up with a plan for fixing the vehicles.
Ginivan said the cash is given to dealers with no specific mandate.
Even before the emissions scandal, Volkswagen was one of the bigger spenders on rebates and deals, according to Autodata Corp., a research firm in Woodcliff Lake, New Jersey.
The VW brand spent an estimated $4,261 a vehicle in incentives last month, up more than 50 percent from $2,781 a year earlier and higher than the industry average of $2,507, according to Edmunds.com data compiled by Bloomberg Intelligence. The brand’s spending has exceeded $3,000 a vehicle since April.
“They’re obviously throwing money at it,” Hiley said in a telephone interview. “We had a slow weekend and I don’t think we’ve seen the worst of this yet.”
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-10-21/vw-offers-deals-to-prop-up-u-s-sales-after-emissions-scandal
I'm curious to see if our "click-through" numbers show any decline in the number of searches for VWs by our site visitors.
Unrelated to timely deals, I think going forward this is the opportunity VW & other diesel OEMs will have to use to bring parity to the future like model gas model prices. This is true even though it may cost more to bring a diesel to market. A notable leader and example would be MB in the GLK 250 BT @ minus - 500 MSRP. But we shall see, I'm sure there are other bigger fish to fry! US affected diesels are ONLY 3.9% !
In less than a year, all this will totally be old, ho hum, news! Nobody will care that a 2009 Jetta TDI needed $2,500 of emissions repairs. Indeed EPA/CARB has already certified it, past whatever fix is approved, which could span 2 years. What? & what 425,000 cars were affected?
I still think we are witnessing the outer manifestations of the VW INNER game: what will be the face of VW in 5 to 10 years?. Perhaps the " WOLF" is the ultimate logo, a drive to the brink of extinction, with an eye to a much leaner and meaner resurgence?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Right now it seems the idea driver is an adolescence minded, auto journalist, hooked on sub 3.9 sec naught to 60 mph runs, burning expensive tire rubber, then turning it back to Tesla factory folks for software tweaks and rehab. Or a rich guy who wants a hobby.
On the (4) diesel side, in approximately 365,000 miles, I've had ZERO drama. I did have the HPFP issue on the 2009 VW Jetta TDI. However VW picked up the tab, out of warranty. The thing is running like it did before. I was pleasantly surprised the mpg was exactly the same. The 120,000 major tune, water pump, timing belt interval will be due. Happy camper on this side.
Here is one that CAN kill you and who's 24,000,000 units dwarf VW's 425,000 units and yet ...who cares ?
http://news.yahoo.com/regulators-lawmakers-tighten-takata-recall-scrutiny-182826829--finance.html
Of course, lots of people don't know that VW owns Audi.
So any OEM that gets into anything: be it gas hybrid, diesel, natural gas, EV etc., does it basically to increase their internal take rate %.
So for example, VW has never made a big deal of diesels overall pvf %. They have measured it in terms of say 25% internal take rate of total yearly production.
But the gasser [non-permissible content removed]'s face reality percentages in the 19 gal RUG/PUG vs 10 gal of diesel produced in a 42 gal barrel of oil. Most people STILL don't realize that better balance of gassers%'s & diesels %'s will let you use a lot less barrels of oil!!! But then the real goal has always been to use more, not less !! Of course you would have to pay correct lip service to using less, while actually using more.
Having said that, the killer app, breakthrough technology, holy grail will allow a barrel of oil to be refined into 100% gas or 100% diesel or " a better balance" of both, whatever that means. By ratios, 95 to 97 % gassers are defacto "out of balance". It is at this juncture still a pipe dream.
Another thing that most gas or proponents ignore is a gal of diesel does not have to be REFINED to be used as a viable diesel fuel. Indeed it can have ZERO ppm sulfur to 30 ppm sulfur for RUG/PUG. Needless to say that makes gas a minimum of 30 times dirtier!!!. With access to natural gas and certain chemicals a gal of diesel can be produced " built" if you will, in a warehouse!!! To do that with a gal of RUG/PUG is unthinkable @ this juncture.
So the truth is you would have an easier time killing gas than you would diesel. This is not even counting the way diesel can be brought to market.