What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

stever

Maybe, but I suspect that part of any "approved" buy back deal would be to crush 'em.

carboy21

Buying and scraping them will be cheaper . Repairing all half a million cars will need more then 2 years or a dedicated factory  and high labour costs .
if they buy back all the lawsuits will be dismissed as frivoulous .  

ruking1

This is almost entertaining, Toyotas new secret weapon: European (VW) suppliers!!?
http://www.wsj.com/articles/toyota-shakes-up-a-japanese-tradition-1446057770

But then, I have to say, I love the Toyota (Aisin Seiki) 8 speed A/T!!! Peel me a grape would be paddle shifters !

Outside of a 6/7 speed M/T's one of the best diesel transmissions!

ruking1

carboy21 said:

Buying and scraping them will be cheaper . Repairing all half a million cars will need more then 2 years or a dedicated factory  and high labour costs .
if they buy back all the lawsuits will be dismissed as frivoulous .  

In terms, of the products' lifecycle, those are wastes beyond comprehension. That's like using a broad axe when you really need a micro scalpel.

Meanwhile, the discounts are better than advertised!

http://news.yahoo.com/vw-dealers-offer-hefty-discounts-diesel-crisis-keeps-210316443--finance.html

stever

ruking1 said:

This is almost entertaining, Toyotas new secret weapon: European (VW) suppliers!!?

Ran across that story before I saw your post. Sounds like Toyota is a bit behind the times, or at least their suppliers are.

Then again, Nissan dumped the "family" supplier system in Japan 15 years ago and they really aren't blazing many new trails either.

stever

Speaking of Nissan:

"Diesel technology, which had been seen, especially among European carmakers, as a mainstream solution to helping the industry meet tougher fuel economy and emissions regulations, now looks vulnerable - though it's far from finished.

"Anybody can, with certainty, guess what's going to happen ... This (VW) scandal is not going to make diesel more popular in the United States. This scandal is not going to make diesel more popular in Japan," Nissan Motor CEO Carlos Ghosn told reporters on Wednesday on the opening day of the Tokyo Motor Show."

Hybrid technology to fill autos gap as diesel damaged by VW scandal (Reuters)

gagrice

I'm not buying the hype. Just looked for Touareg TDI Lux. 714 available in the USA. Of those 537 are above MSRP as much as $10k over the $56k list price. A few in So CA and all at MSRP or above. It think the dealers are not interested in taking a loss on any diesel they can sell.

As for MB their GLE with the 2.1L diesel is in short supply and no discounts I can find.

carboy21

All VW are at heavy discount in my area 

ruking1

Well, if anybody's in the market for diesels, everybody's dealing!!! This spills over to gas VW's. It truly is the WORST of times! It truly is the BEST of times!

Indeed, from a deal point of view, I wish I had ZERO diesels and in the market for 4! The problem is diesels, all of one model year.

So even if I don't buy another diesel (and given the track record of the 2003 Jetta TDI @ 187,000 miles, et al. ) I'm good for a 30 years life cycle and 400,000 miles, for each of the four diesels.

This next article confirms what I said earlier:VW is desperately having to post higher profit (& %) per car!! Cost cuts, especially to the highest % costs, like union labor rates, slashed head count, higher productivity, all of the above & much much more will have to be done.

They have to bottle the energy being released by these explosive (fiasco) conditions ! They need to define the future products. They need to use the avalanche to clear the path to the 2025 visions & targets.

http://blog.caranddriver.com/vw-ceo-we-wont-be-worlds-no-1-automaker-by-2018-every-single-model-under-review/

jpp75

ruking1 said:

Yep, the answer has been pretty simple, regardless of whether nobody to anybody likes it or not. DEF/SCR are the technologies that met/meets the N0x standards . All of the mentioned OEM's did not want to spend the monies.

http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/standards/light-duty/tier2stds.htm

Apparently VW didn't want to spend the monies either. I guess they found it more economical to write software that made their diesels appear compliant?

ruking1

jpp5862 said:

ruking1 said:

Yep, the answer has been pretty simple, regardless of whether nobody to anybody likes it or not. DEF/SCR are the technologies that met/meets the N0x standards . All of the mentioned OEM's did not want to spend the monies.

http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/standards/light-duty/tier2stds.htm

Apparently VW didn't want to spend the monies either. I guess they found it more economical to write software that made their diesels appear compliant?

With no hard evidence other than 2 samples of 425,000 plus US population, & logic progression, purely my swag.

VW uses the Ad Blue/SCR systems in the 2012 VW Touareg TDI !

jpp75

ruking1 said:

jpp5862 said:

ruking1 said:

Yep, the answer has been pretty simple, regardless of whether nobody to anybody likes it or not. DEF/SCR are the technologies that met/meets the N0x standards . All of the mentioned OEM's did not want to spend the monies.

http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/standards/light-duty/tier2stds.htm

Apparently VW didn't want to spend the monies either. I guess they found it more economical to write software that made their diesels appear compliant?

With no hard evidence other than 2 samples of 425,000 plus US population, & logic progression, purely my swag.

VW uses the Ad Blue/SCR systems in the 2012 VW Touareg TDI !

What more evidence do you require when VW admitted they installed software to feign compliance?

That begs the question, why didn't they install the Ad Blue system in the 4 cylinder models if that was more economical and made them compliant?

ruking1

I already responded to your post. Based on what you're saying further, I'm not really sure what you're asking ? If you want or need more back ground feel free to go back to past posts. VW would probably not start correction procedures, if there were NO truth to it.

jpp75

ruking1 said:

I already responded to your post. Based on what you're saying further, I'm not really sure what you're asking ? VW would probably not start correction procedures, if there were no truth to it.

Yes, you said a sample of 2 proved nothing. I agree but VW admitting culpability proves everything.

carboy21

jpp5862 said:

ruking1 said:

jpp5862 said:

ruking1 said:

Yep, the answer has been pretty simple, regardless of whether nobody to anybody likes it or not. DEF/SCR are the technologies that met/meets the N0x standards . All of the mentioned OEM's did not want to spend the monies.

http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/standards/light-duty/tier2stds.htm

Apparently VW didn't want to spend the monies either. I guess they found it more economical to write software that made their diesels appear compliant?

With no hard evidence other than 2 samples of 425,000 plus US population, & logic progression, purely my swag.

VW uses the Ad Blue/SCR systems in the 2012 VW Touareg TDI !

What more evidence do you require when VW admitted they installed software to feign compliance?

That begs the question, why didn't they install the Ad Blue system in the 4 cylinder models if that was more economical and made them compliant?

VW did not want to pay royalty to Daimler Benz for the Blutec system patented by them. They only wanted it for the more expensive Touareg and the Audi.

ruking1

So it is proven beyond a doubt, compliance with the N0x standard is a total NO brainer! It does cost MORE!

Indeed, the 800 pound gorilla, in the Savannah: the average American pick up truck/SUV does NOT meet the N0x standards; even as they insist that car diesels should !! With up to 98% gassers, that is the TRUE disengenousness!!! So defacto, just as long as one is getting out of compliance gasser N0x, it is just fine ! ?

I think that is one reason why broader (gasser) testing is totally ignored!

ruking1

Slow diesel day news!

ULSD @ $2.49 / PUG @ $2.69 gal. Articles say prices, relatively are low.

For the MB GLK 350 @ 22 mpg/ 250 BT@ 35 mpg= cpmd: fuel =

7.1 cents versus

12.22 cents.

Or 72% more for gas!

It seems to me, it is not hard to see why they want to kill diesel!?

stever

Mazda says they are still in the game.

"Mazda Motor Corp expects delays to the launch of diesel-powered cars in the United States in the wake of the Volkswagen AG emissions test-rigging scandal, but it remains committed to a rollout, a senior executive said.

Kiyoshi Fujiwara, a Mazda managing executive officer in charge of research and development and cost innovation, said media reports that Mazda had given up on diesel's potential use in the U.S. market were untrue."

Mazda expects delays to U.S. diesel car launch after VW scandal (Reuters)

ruking1

Mazda has been coming to market with their diesel for several years now !? Is this a good piggie back on VW press diesel woes?

VW has got to love all this FREE PR! Hopefully, given the fiasco, they know how to use it! ?

gagrice

jpp5862 said:

ruking1 said:

I already responded to your post. Based on what you're saying further, I'm not really sure what you're asking ? VW would probably not start correction procedures, if there were no truth to it.

Yes, you said a sample of 2 proved nothing. I agree but VW admitting culpability proves everything.

I think VW learned from Toyota, GM and others, that trying to cover up would make it worse. So say yes our cars have some sort of cheat device and we will fix it. No one was killed by a VW car as a result. So get it fixed and back to selling the best small diesels available in the USA. Well the Chevy Cruze is now out there.

It looks like the diesel fiasco may have hurt GM. I see new Chevy Cruze diesels selling under $20k with an MSRP of $27k. Except in CA where they are at MSRP and above.

ruking1

If I hit the keys on the cheap solar calculator correctly, that is a very impressive 29.6% under MSRP! Indeed the discounts are % wise better that VW's ! !

However, Chevrolet prices their diesels Cruzes about $ 6,000 higher than their gas like models. But it does beg the questions : what are the discounts for the gasser (like model) ?

So for example, this is how I know I got the diesels for gasser prices. The exception of course was the MB GLK 250 BT. The cheaper minus -$500 MSRP was reflected in eaches final prices. I only paid the premium on the 2003 Jetts TDI. It was $236.

2015 MY! Diesels despite the brouhaha are still viable & not going away.

http://www.digitaltrends.com/car-reviews/2015-mercedes-benz-c250d-review/

stever

gagrice said:

I think VW learned from Toyota, GM and others, that trying to cover up would make it worse.

After what, seven years they decided to come clean? Nah, they had an ultimatum and couldn't get the 2016s certified. At that point the EPA or CARB was already asking pointed questions (finally) and going to blow the whistle anyway.

ruking1

Obviously, it didn't work. 2016 2.0 TDI's have yet to be certified.

carboy21

ruking1 said:

Obviously, it didn't work. 2016 2.0 TDI's have yet to be certified.

Obviously , it won't be certified until they come up with a fix for the 4.5 million duds.

VW has dug themselves into deeper hole.

ruking1

You mean 425,000 US TDI units? Yes they got sucked into a bad deal. So the bestthey can do for 2016 is to match or exceed last year's total production with gassers. So@ a projected 17.5 M 2015 sales, 2.5%= 437,500 units.

On the other hand I never thought I woul live to see this! This is a totally HUGE game changer @ EVERY level!

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/germany-start-monster-machine-could-152111129.html

stever

That's cool. I woke up at 2 am and read about Kardashev Civilizations to go back to sleep. Maybe we'll get to a Type II level quicker than another few thousand years.

We're living two acres of scrub desert - a stellarator will fit here just fine. No waste or radiation, right?

ruking1

Well, both the theoretical construct & the fusion reactors are direct indications of LIMITLESS energy! US warships have long used nuclear propulsion. The USS Nautilus is considered one of the first.

Indeed just thinking about it, the environmental movement is just a kinder and gentler Spanish Inquisition.

stever

Always wonder about the unintended consequences. No more darks skies?

LA Times has a story this am about whether the difficulty and expense in producing a legitimate "clean diesel" means it's even viable at all for affordable cars. Kind of a rehash of the Mazda story.

Automakers struggle to bring affordable diesel cars to U.S. market

And here's another story about studies trying to predict the cheat death toll.

Volkswagen's diesel cheating could cause 60 people to die early (Forbes)

stever

Ah, this is new - "Volkswagen of America, seeking to contain the damage from its emissions scandal, will offer to buy back some used diesel vehicles from its U.S. dealers at pre-crisis prices, Automotive News has learned.

According to three dealers briefed on the plan, VW will guarantee the value of certified pre-owned and other used VWs with 2.0-liter diesel engines containing the illegal emissions software in dealer inventory, at prices seen before Sept. 18, when the EPA announced VW’s violations. If any of those vehicles stay in dealer inventory for 60 days or longer, VW will offer to buy them back from dealers."

VW offers dealers a price guarantee on used diesel vehicles (autonews.com)

There's more "goodwill" programs coming.

ruking1

So what you are saying in effect is these very same guys can predict the death tolls & rolls for every make and model? With most of the emissions deaths due to GASSERS, and emitters Fed,State, Local give free passes to: it makes you wonder why they don't ?

stever

It's just math. The legal beagles are bummed since you can't tie the math to individuals....

ruking1

stever said:

Ah, this is new - "Volkswagen of America, seeking to contain the damage from its emissions scandal, will offer to buy back some used diesel vehicles from its U.S. dealers at pre-crisis prices, Automotive News has learned.

According to three dealers briefed on the plan, VW will guarantee the value of certified pre-owned and other used VWs with 2.0-liter diesel engines containing the illegal emissions software in dealer inventory, at prices seen before Sept. 18, when the EPA announced VW’s violations. If any of those vehicles stay in dealer inventory for 60 days or longer, VW will offer to buy them back from dealers."

VW offers dealers a price guarantee on used diesel vehicles (autonews.com)

There's more "goodwill" programs coming.

Yeah, that actually creates a very interesting opportunity for those interested in used VW diesels. It also makes me wonder if there are backdoor channels for 2016 VW TDI's.

ruking1

stever said:

It's just math. The legal beagles are bummed since you can't tie the math to individuals....

Ah, a Chicken Little story ! Got it! Zombie Apocalypse, Living Dead, et al.

Mr_Shiftright

The real issue here is the level of moral corruption that has apparently infected VW. Their corporate culture is very ill. Perhaps their drive to be #1 has blinded them.

Hard to say what, if any, longterm damage might occur to the VW name, but I think the reputation of diesel cars in America has been badly hurt.

ruking1

While the dynamics are different, it is NOT much different than what has happened at the GM, for example. The US environmentalist et al., has barely made it a secret that it has worked to kill diesel. The 95 to 98% plus gasser PVF is stark evidence.

But to "KILL" diesel, you really have to kill gasoline! Aka, a 42 gal barrel of oil yields 19 gal of (waste) gasoline (historically) to 10 gal of (desired) diesel! ( 13 gal= other)

This "waste portion" launched Rockefeller's Standard Oil in 1870. So, both diesel & gasoline have been dying for at least 146 years . Still, there are no real substitutes for either. Keep in mind electric vehicles have been around for easily 146 years (1828) also. The world civilization killer app would be a process that will refine or convert only diesel or gas . NADA in 146 years. Anyone that can patent & control that process will be richer than Putin & a load of billionaires combined!

So if the environmentalists can wave the fairy magic wands again and get the Europeans to have 98% gasoline PVF,...infrastructure just like the holier than thou US (PVF) : . Ah yes, lack of math skills cant let em see that far ahead.

Ok, ok ya magically stopped drilling! Where is the natural gas going to come from to run the electrical grids? We all can't live near San Quentin and burn wood! Oops we are working to stop burning wood.

carboy21

Diesels will succeed only if they cost same as gassers.

Nothing worth paying premium for if they have low torque and low mpg then before.

gagrice

stever said:

Always wonder about the unintended consequences. No more darks skies?

And here's another story about studies trying to predict the cheat death toll.

Volkswagen's diesel cheating could cause 60 people to die early (Forbes)

How many people will be killed for every 11 million cars on the road in accidents. With 32,000+ people dying each year in auto accidents, that would be about 1391 per 11 million cars. You are 23 times more likely to die from a car accident, than from VW diesel pollution.

Mr_Shiftright

Diesel cars in America didn't need "environmentalists" to kill them. GM did that without any help from anyone and Mercedes, VW and Volvo didn't help either.

Now that diesel cars are no longer slow and smelly, and now that diesel fuel is readily available anywhere, and now that diesel fuel costs no more than regular gasoline (or close to it)----they still have a major problem--turns out they are considerably more expensive then their efficient gasoline cousins.

Simply put, they are at the wrong price point for posting large sales numbers.

As you can see, the Whole Foods model is failing right now for the same reason. You can buy organic at Walmart.

ruking1

carboy21 said:

Diesels will succeed only if they cost same as gassers.

Nothing worth paying premium for if they have low torque and low mpg then before.

From a passenger vehicle fleet point of view, it does not seem to even move the needle. 3 to 5 % diesels PVF have been achieved with the common notion that diesels both cost & sell for more.

With MB offering diesels at -$500 MSRP, it does not seem to have altered the internal percentage much. If it has, M B has/is not tooting the horn.

I have of course highlighted the GLK 250 BT scenario. To me, it has remained & it is totally obvious, most folks are just fine with paying more; i.e., 72% more in fuel , using more , with way less torque. I mean people are tone DEAF to approximately $10,000 more they would pay over app 12 years & 180,000 miles!

VW without much urging has several models with high diesel take rates & perceived higher prices. Given the latest fiasco, tremendous discounts seem to have no effect on sales, even on gassers. This is really too bad, because if one was/were in the market, this is truly the time to buy !

gagrice

ruking1 said:

So what you are saying in effect is these very same guys can predict the death tolls & rolls for every make and model? With most of the emissions deaths due to GASSERS, and emitters Fed,State, Local give free passes to: it makes you wonder why they don't ?

Too bad the authorities do not worry more about Carbon Monoxide deaths. With a 12 year average of 430 accidental CO deaths per year, it don't look good for gas cars, that put out twice the CO of a comparable diesel engine.

During 1999–2010, a total of 5,149 deaths from unintentional carbon monoxide poisoning occurred in the United States, an average of 430 deaths per year.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6303a6.htm

gagrice

So VW dealers are allowed to sell USED VW TDI cars. And why give any discounts when VW will buy them back at market value?

ruking1

Just for grins, I looked at the 2016 Porsche Cayenne diesel @ MSRP app $ 72 K. With the Sport TDI 2016 Toareg@ app $ 51 K BEFORE any deals, VW starts off 21K cheaper?! With discounts they are app 64 K vs 44 k.

stever

gagrice said:

How many people will be killed for every 11 million cars on the road in accidents. With 32,000+ people dying each year in auto accidents, that would be about 1391 per 11 million cars.

Looks like than number keeps falling and that's good to see. For the same reason, we don't need an open season on our lungs either.

gagrice

ruking1 said:

Just for grins, I looked at the 2016 Porsche Cayenne diesel @ MSRP app $ 72 K. With the Sport TDI 2016 Toareg@ app $ 51 K BEFORE any deals, VW starts off 21K cheaper?! With discounts they are app 64 K vs 44 k.

That is about what we saw in 2013 when we bought our Touareg. We bought the LUX at $48k, MSRP $55k. Did not consider the Cayenne, not pleasing to my eye or wallet.

Looks like they have a lot of the LUX models around, not many Sport or base models. In the US, about 58% of the new Touaregs on the lots are diesel. When we were looking 2 years ago there were far fewer diesels available. That is a good sign.

ruking1

There are many pluses ++'s on the VW Touareg TDI side. ( this is NOT to say there are any less on the Porsche side)

One plus as you have noted, the majority, approximately 58 % are TDI's! I would agree, a good sign. The %'s of Porsche TDI's are much less. Both the Porsche Cayenne & the VW Touareg get assembled on the SAME (European) line. I have read & heard more than a few say, it is one of the more European of US market European vehicles, albeit great price/performance ratios. Porsche distinct items/ bits are customized @ another plant. There are premiums for semi to more custom items.

This "platform" is the backbone & nerve center for Porsche's overall sales and GM/Ford/FCA large PU,SUV,CUV like, large profits & economic health.. It seems like just an outlet on the VW side. I do know that that profit per car is way less then Porsches.

While mine may be anecdotal, the 2012 VW Touareg TDI @ 55,000 miles has been flawless.

gagrice

I see the hullabaloo over NOx as the Pollutant du jour. The EU was ahead of US on ULSD by several years. That sulfur caused soot which was the major cause of Smog and lung problems. Of Course CO2 has been the boogie man all along that causes MM/GW or CC whichever happens to be in vogue. So we caught up and mandated ULSD which was great. I did not like following a truck spewing nasty smelling black smoke.

The more efficient diesels got, it seemed the more they were leaned on by the EPA/CARB. 50 MPG cars and small PUs from VW have been around for 40 years or more. CA on several occasions blocked sales of diesels from VW and Jeep. This fiasco has not helped the cause. Hopefully it will not have the repercussions of the GM diesels from the 1980s.

ruking1

The other side of the ledger is it is both entertaining and instructive: to see how biased anti diesel feeling & atitudes are ruffled by an inanimate object, like a 2009 Jetta TDI. Most of those that are seemingly outraged seem to hold or tolerate the view that gassers are pure as the driven snow! Realistically, all I am doing is calling a spade a spade, when no reasonable comparisons and contrasts are proffered.

A lot think I am biased, when half the cars I own are gassers! I have had far more gassers & far many more miles and experience on ...GASSERS.

For example, I have zero issues with the WAG, that PVF diesels might cause 60 respiratory deaths. Aka, look (smell the farts of) @ a VW diesel one day: DIE in another 364 days!! ,?

The "rationale" or what passes as.... It actually makes me laugh. Without data, alarmist to chicken little! Yet ZERO on GASSER figures!!! Another example, ZERO on gasser carbon monoxide deaths!!!! This lack of comparison is a TOTAL lack of credibility! When this is pointed out, there's actually no correction nor credible response. We just get more bias blathered bloviatings & foaming @ the mouth. As if N0x is the only emission. They also want to totally ignore gassers, like PU trucks do not comply with N0x operating limits. The real biases are the 95 to 98% GASSERS.

gagrice

I still have the Passat Alltrack wagon TDI on my radar. This is the vehicle VW needs to compete with Subaru. They currently have nothing. The Tiguan is small and over priced. If you want that size CUV with diesel all they offer is the very expensive Audi Q5 TDI with the same big V6 used in the Q7 , Cayenne and Touareg. The Alltrack is only offered with 2.0L diesel in the EU. Rated at combined mileage of 47.9 MPG UK (39.88 US). Perfect size, perfect height, 750+ mile range. What's not to like???

ruking1

Despite this VW fiasco, I am really hoping VW gets even more "diesel" competitive with stuff like the Alltrack! That niche segment market could use another competitor !

For me, I'm sure with all wheel drive, I'd still be required to "chain up" (when required by CA Trans) in the mountains. That being true, I'm ok without the mpg penalty.

Mr_Shiftright

Nice car but man that's going to be a tough sell in the USA, as it touches two live wires---the prejudice American buyers have against diesels and the one they have against station wagons. Haven't seen this car "in the flesh" so if it has the higher stance of the Outback and can pass as a real CUV, that would help a lot.

Let's see---isn't the only other diesel wagon in the USA the BMW 328? Have I got that right?