What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

fintail

I guess the urine injection technology is still safe.

fintail

When home, the car is probably a gasoline or diesel swilling Landcruiser - those are popular there, right? When she's not on a private plane or chopper. Do as I say, not as I do.

Delighted...atrocious.

gagrice said:

I found that interesting as well. CR like Norway are blessed with lots of fast running rivers to exploit hydro power. Then Norway would be just another poor country if not for oil. Easy to be a self righteous politician when you have it all to start with. I wonder if her vehicle fleet was EV if CR would be able to handle the load?

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/mar/30/truth-behind-costa-rica-renewable-energy-reservoirs-climate-change

benjaminh

Mr_Shiftright said:

Germany at least made diesel cars fun to drive, you have to give them that.

"Our TDIs are fun as hell to drive!" (2:05)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKef1JFpiCA

stever

That meme is getting a lot of mileage lately.

“Looking at the world today — especially in major markets like North America and China — the ratio of diesel (demand) is small. Given this fact, rather than try to develop diesel engines for the global market, I think we would have to consider the requirements of individual regions and come up with diesel engines where required, and the type of engines that are wanted,” he concluded." (Quote by Takahiro Hachigo, Honda CEO)

Honda to limit diesel engine development – report (paultan.org)

ruking1

Interesting article!

http://www.engadget.com/2015/11/03/volkswagen-gasoline-emissions-lied/

My take? IF the EPA/CARB continues down this path, I think it will EXPOSE almost auto industry WIDE NON compliance: any fuel/motivation combination!

It is absolutely amazing to me that there is almost no call for an industry WIDE baseline! To assume or to think VW is the ONLY one is naive @ best, to fraudulent cover up, and regulatory complicity more realistically!

carboy21

I am going to play the devils advocate .

Why not lower the unrealistic and overambitous EPA / CARB  emissions standards so that the automakers dont have to cheat on emission results ?  After all following these standards makes the cars more expensive and increases fuel consumption and promotes  utopian electric vehicles which poison the Earth due to the expensive  battery products like Lithium and Nickel , whose safe disposal is also a moot point . Is this just shifting the wealth from the oil producers to the Lithium producers ?

stever

Sounds like that's exactly what the EU is doing.

Lowering the mpg is one thing, are you willing to lower the air quality standards too? Is your spouse asthmatic like mine?

Back when the Big 3 were mightily complaining about having to meet CAFE (after mightily complaining about the expense of mandatory seat belts), Honda and Toyota came along and met the standards through engineering.

In other news, VW has decided to diversify and will shortly be buying Takata for undisclosed billions.

elias

thanks Gagrice.
I know what you mean about "more power than I need", especially in winter around new england. I volunteer for a power-decrease on both of my gasser vehicles by running 87 octane rather than 91+.
I figure it would be the likely mpg decrease that would be objectionable to VAG diesel vehicle owners after the cheat-fix is applied, more than any power decrease resulting from the fix.

gagrice

fintail said:

When home, the car is probably a gasoline or diesel swilling Landcruiser - those are popular there, right? When she's not on a private plane or chopper. Do as I say, not as I do.

Delighted...atrocious.

gagrice said:

I found that interesting as well. CR like Norway are blessed with lots of fast running rivers to exploit hydro power. Then Norway would be just another poor country if not for oil. Easy to be a self righteous politician when you have it all to start with. I wonder if her vehicle fleet was EV if CR would be able to handle the load?

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/mar/30/truth-behind-costa-rica-renewable-energy-reservoirs-climate-change

Our world is loaded with high carbon producing hypocrites. Bill Gates came out of the closet this week. Another carbon spewing wonk like Gore.

ruking1

carboy21 said:

I am going to play the devils advocate .

Why not lower the unrealistic and overambitous EPA / CARB  emissions standards so that the automakers dont have to cheat on emission results ?  After all following these standards makes the cars more expensive and increases fuel consumption and promotes  utopian electric vehicles which poison the Earth due to the expensive  battery products like Lithium and Nickel , whose safe disposal is also a moot point . Is this just shifting the wealth from the oil producers to the Lithium producers ?

If anyone has ever been around mining, it's a easy conclusion ( non PC: no brainer) that any environmentalist has never known a mine that they didn't want to shut down yesterday! IF not sooner! The only reason why they don't work harder and faster to close down the mining in Utah, Nevada, etc., is it advances the environmental fairytale story line agenda! Aka, battery, EV, etc.

Mr_Shiftright

It's not surprising, since in America most of the regulatory rules are suggested by, if not literally written by, lobbyists for that industry, who, in turn, are often former employees of the regulatory agency they are now lobbying. This is the "shadow government" one keeps hearing about.

ruking1 said:

Interesting article!

http://www.engadget.com/2015/11/03/volkswagen-gasoline-emissions-lied/

My take? IF the EPA/CARB continues down this path, I think it will EXPOSE almost auto industry WIDE NON compliance: any fuel/motivation combination!

It is absolutely amazing to me that there is almost no call for an industry WIDE baseline! To assume or to think VW is the ONLY one is naive @ best, to fraudulent cover up, and regulatory complicity more realistically!

carboy21

Asthma link to car emissions is as probable as the children getting  gifts fron santa claus during christmas

Many studies have stated  that over hygiene , house pets like dogs , chemicals and preservatives in processed food ., have all been linked to asthma . People in third world countries rarely have asthma . They die of infections . 
Car emissions is the bogeyman created by the electric car and lithium lobby

gagrice

Lowering the mpg is one thing, are you willing to lower the air quality standards too? Is your spouse asthmatic like mine?

Interesting thought. I remember in the 1950s people were moving to Phoenix to get the best air for Asthma. Now with all the farming, people and dust, it is one of the worst places. Our climate at the 2000 ft level above San Diego was during the late 1800s and early 1900s considered the best air quality in the USA. It is better today than 20 years ago, but still far from great if you have asthma or allergies. If you want the cleanest freshest air on the planet. I have spent a lot of time there. It is Kapoho Hawaii. There is a risk of volcanic activity, but nothing is perfect.

Clean-Air Credentials: According to Russell Schnell, Hawaii can receive significant pollution from China but still it manages to record the cleanest air on earth.

http://www.travelandleisure.com/slideshows/the-worlds-cleanest-air/2

fintail

To much of our beloved bleeding heart save the world set, pollution and environmental degradation are just fine, as long as they are beyond their eyesight.

carboy21 said:

I am going to play the devils advocate .

Why not lower the unrealistic and overambitous EPA / CARB  emissions standards so that the automakers dont have to cheat on emission results ?  After all following these standards makes the cars more expensive and increases fuel consumption and promotes  utopian electric vehicles which poison the Earth due to the expensive  battery products like Lithium and Nickel , whose safe disposal is also a moot point . Is this just shifting the wealth from the oil producers to the Lithium producers ?

Mr_Shiftright

There was no electric car and battery lobby when California started emissions standards in 1966. The standards were started because of very real, (and visible) issues of air quality.

An environment filled with diesel-fumes, such as one might find in a densely populated 3rd world city, would certainly be one of many possible irritants to lungs.

Emissions regulations have done the auto industry way more good than harm. They should send the battery and EV lobby a thank you note in that case.

stever

carboy21 said:

Asthma link to car emissions ...

Yep, and it seems to be getting more common (or the diagnosing is getting better). Here's one study:

Diesel exhaust fumes affect people with asthma, finds study on London's Oxford Street (imperial.ac.uk)

Here's the laundry list at Google Scholar if you prefer scientific links instead of the mass media ones.

And moving for asthma does help. The issue is that you get acclimated to your new area and the asthma kicks in. Or your allergies do. Easy solution - keep moving.

ruking1

carboy21 said:

Asthma link to car emissions is as probable as the children getting  gifts fron santa claus during christmas

Many studies have stated  that over hygiene , house pets like dogs , chemicals and preservatives in processed food ., have all been linked to asthma . People in third world countries rarely have asthma . They die of infections . 
Car emissions is the bogeyman created by the electric car and lithium lobby

Unfortunately that is true! A lot to most pollution is due to background environmental conditions. It is also due to reaction to environmental conditions unrelated to, which are sometimes confused, intermixed by the use of the cars, because it is easy to blame. Also it has long been knowing that allergies or sensitivities etc., are very individualistic. So to state the obvious, one can live and work in Alaska, Antarctic, Siberia, & still be asthmatic. Another example, if one could move to a state with the absolute LEAST number of cars, & the same would be true.

Off topic, VW stock off 9% to the downside ! Not bad for another slow news diesel day!

elias

thanks Gagrice. I know what you mean about "more power than I need" since my vehicles provide so much that I volunteer for possible power-drop all winter by using 87 octane fuel instead of 91. I figure it would be the mpg decrease that might be objectionable, if VW needs to fix your Touareg.

stever

If diesel is what triggers your asthma, that'll be the deciding factor, not where you live.

In other news, add Audi to the stop sale list:

"The stop-sale order issued to U.S. dealers covers 3-liter, 6-cylinder diesel versions of the 2015-16 Audi A6, A7, A8, Q5 and Q7, as well as certified pre-owned models. Those plush vehicles are among the most profitable for Volkswagen."

Volkswagen halts sales of Audi models after EPA accusation (lcsun-news.com)

ruking1

gagrice said:

Lowering the mpg is one thing, are you willing to lower the air quality standards too? Is your spouse asthmatic like mine?

Interesting thought. I remember in the 1950s people were moving to Phoenix to get the best air for Asthma. Now with all the farming, people and dust, it is one of the worst places. Our climate at the 2000 ft level above San Diego was during the late 1800s and early 1900s considered the best air quality in the USA. It is better today than 20 years ago, but still far from great if you have asthma or allergies. If you want the cleanest freshest air on the planet. I have spent a lot of time there. It is Kapoho Hawaii. There is a risk of volcanic activity, but nothing is perfect.

Clean-Air Credentials: According to Russell Schnell, Hawaii can receive significant pollution from China but still it manages to record the cleanest air on earth.

http://www.travelandleisure.com/slideshows/the-worlds-cleanest-air/2

There is so much naturally occurring emissions pollution from volcanic activity in Hawaii that it defies imagination!

It is also been known for very long time that the Santa Barbara, CA ocean area emit's more pollution than 300 M cars!

gagrice

An environment filled with diesel-fumes, such as one might find in a densely populated 3rd world city, would certainly be one of many possible irritants to lungs.

I know first hand how bad Los Angeles was in the 1950s into the 1970s. It was a stew of pollutants. Maybe the worst was the lead in gas. Though I am sure the cargo ships, factories and oil refineries played a big part of it. We moved to San Diego 1957 and it was bad in the low lying areas there. I think though we have reached the point where we may be doing the environment more harm with batteries, electric motors, solar panels, wind generators, all stuff made elsewhere that causes WW pollution. Even Toyota admits the Prius produces a lot more pollution in the manufacturing than their gas vehicles.

ruking1

stever said:

If diesel is what triggers your asthma, that'll be the deciding factor, not where you live.

In other news, add Audi to the stop sale list:

"The stop-sale order issued to U.S. dealers covers 3-liter, 6-cylinder diesel versions of the 2015-16 Audi A6, A7, A8, Q5 and Q7, as well as certified pre-owned models. Those plush vehicles are among the most profitable for Volkswagen."

Volkswagen halts sales of Audi models after EPA accusation (lcsun-news.com)

@ some point, the Fed will have to strike, broker face saving compromises. This is simple to see and has long historical precedence, as show in SQMD statistics and figures! Links have been posted in past messages. The Fed has granted get out of jail free cards to many many many gross polluters & for many many years.

gagrice

There is so much naturally occurring emissions pollution from volcanic activity in Hawaii that it defies imagination!

For sure. The Volcanic VOG makes breathing in Kona very unhealthy at times. That is why I would only consider the other side where the Westerly winds blow the gases from the volcano away from the Eastern side of the Island.

stever

So you're okay with putting lead back in gas?

gagrice

And moving for asthma does help. The issue is that you get acclimated to your new area and the asthma kicks in. Or your allergies do. Easy solution - keep moving.

I would hate those dust storms across that whole area of the SW. Better head to Hilo Hawaii. My wife never feels better than when we are there.

stever

Used to do the Hawaii thing back in the day, and loved the moist flowery smell that would hit you at the airport. But then we discovered Mexico - great beaches and volcano hiking too, and you aren't stuck on a little rock out in the middle of the Pacific. About the same flight time from ANC back then too, before the nonstops.

Have ridden a lot of diesel buses all over that place.

carboy21

gagrice said:

An environment filled with diesel-fumes, such as one might find in a densely populated 3rd world city, would certainly be one of many possible irritants to lungs. I know first hand how bad Los Angeles was in the 1950s into the 1970s. It was a stew of pollutants. Maybe the worst was the lead in gas. Though I am sure the cargo ships, factories and oil refineries played a big part of it. We moved to San Diego 1957 and it was bad in the low lying areas there. I think though we have reached the point where we may be doing the environment more harm with batteries, electric motors, solar panels, wind generators, all stuff made elsewhere that causes WW pollution. Even Toyota admits the Prius produces a lot more pollution in the manufacturing than their gas vehicles.

Usual first world modus operandi  !
Shift all  pollution to the third world countries.
All the lithium is produced in the third world countries like China, Chile, Australia, Brazil , Argentina , Portugal, Zimbabwe, Afghanistan ( lithium discovered, hence the war )
Worldwide boom in EV will need millons of tons of lithium. New gold rush in the third world.
Pollute the third World so that the Californians can breath smog free air and cure their asthma 

ruking1

I think it's very hard to visualize diesel can be made chemically in its own processing equipment on a 12 x 12' concrete pad with access to natural gas and "proper" chemistry !!

De facto it bypasses ALL of the drilling, transportation of raw and finished products and refinery infrastructure. Even as it is fungible. Essentially, you can custom make the fuel (to order) without much of the vast infrastructures that gas and electrical commodities require and for cheaper ! A description of the process was posted many messages ago. Most people also do not understand that natural gas that can fuel the world for one full year is literally flared off in the production of the yearly barrels of oil .

stever

Short haul truckers have been doing that with LNG for several years now. The footprint for the gas plant is more semi-truck size though. I think the CNG/LNG stuff is available for home power production in an even smaller footprint than 12x12.

I don't have NG here....

ruking1

Here is a readers digest version of 18 wheel trucking!

https://www.yahoo.com/autos/question-of-the-day-why-do-semi-trucks-have-18-162709366.html

IF the diesel trucking emissions are the GRAVE issues the chicken littles make it out to be. THEN one real question would be: why NO political will for NG trucking? Keep in mind all the bit players all belong/vote the same party. That party is probably NOT Republican!

In the nations defense, I had to master specific aspects of the logistics of transportation, aka, intermodal. At one time, I was licensed to drive 18 wheelers, transporting critical national resources.

carboy21

carboy21

carboy21

The future fight is between  the  Oil lobby vs  Lithium lobby

The first salvo against the oil lobby has been fired by the EPA /CARB  at the behest of the Lithium lobby  

ruking1

Well I actually do know what sides the breads are buttered on !

carboy21

carboy21

carboy21

ruking1

Lutz on Piech.

http://kinja.roadandtrack.com/lutz-one-mans-use-of-fear-and-intimidation-caused-vws-1740517086

carboy21

ruking1 said:

Lutz on Piech. http://kinja.roadandtrack.com/lutz-one-mans-use-of-fear-and-intimidation-caused-vws-1740517086

He has obviously inherited the Fuehrer's genes  

Michaell

carboy21 said:

ruking1 said:

Lutz on Piech.

http://kinja.roadandtrack.com/lutz-one-mans-use-of-fear-and-intimidation-caused-vws-1740517086

He has obviously inherited the Fuehrer's genes  

Steve Jobs operated in much the same fashion.

Mr_Shiftright

Nothing political about the absence of NG trucks...they don't make financial sense for the trucking companies--it's just raw capitalism that's the reason. It would take at least 4 years to amortize the additional cost of an NG semi, and at 125K miles per year, that truck will be pretty tired after 4 years.

Actually the people who are at the most serious risk of developing health problems from diesel particulate are the drivers of the big rigs.

gagrice

It would be nice to actually win one. We have become lousy Imperialists.

After a war that has cost the lives of more than 2,200 Americans and over 17,000 Afghans, not to mention a bill of upward of $642 billion, it has been China, not the United States, that may commercially conquer Afghanistan. The situation is a replay of what has happened in Iraq, where Americans have suffered 4,486 casualties. In June, the New York Times reported that, since the 2003 U.S.-led invasion, Iraq has become one of the world's top oil producers and that China has become its biggest customer, buying almost 1.5 million barrels a day, almost half of what Iraq produces.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/as-america-fights-china-gets-contracts/

The aerial surveys determined that Afghanistan may hold 60 million tons of copper, 2.2 billion tons of iron ore, 1.4 million tons of rare earth elements such as lanthanum, cerium and neodymium, and lodes of aluminum, gold, silver, zinc, mercury and lithium. For instance, the Khanneshin carbonatite deposit in Afghanistan's Helmand province is valued at $89 billion, full as it is with rare earth elements.


http://www.nbcnews.com/science/science-news/rare-earth-afghanistan-sits-1-trillion-minerals-n196861

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-war-is-worth-waging-afghanistan-s-vast-reserves-of-minerals-and-natural-gas/19769

ruking1

Mr_Shiftright said:

Nothing political about the absence of NG trucks...they don't make financial sense for the trucking companies--it's just raw capitalism that's the reason. It would take at least 4 years to amortize the additional cost of an NG semi, and at 125K miles per year, that truck will be pretty tired after 4 years.

Actually the people who are at the most serious risk of developing health problems from diesel particulate are the drivers of the big rigs.

You're illustrating my point!

ruking1

Michaell said:

carboy21 said:

ruking1 said:

Lutz on Piech.

http://kinja.roadandtrack.com/lutz-one-mans-use-of-fear-and-intimidation-caused-vws-1740517086

He has obviously inherited the Fuehrer's genes  

Steve Jobs operated in much the same fashion.
I have a perspective on Steve Jobs, but I am not sure of the nexus with Piech & the current VW situation.

Given the current scenarios, in the minds of the German country, people's and various German governments, auto unions, pension funds, et al, anything the US does beyond a slap on the limp wrist, or fails to accommodate, will be seen as discriminatory. It will be seen as gov vs gov, union vs union, etc. It will also shift the momentum, advantage & energy toward both their country & VW.

carboy21

It will be obvious that the Lithium producers lobby is trying hard to suppress the Diesel cars as it feels threatened by the high mileage obtained by this diesel cars which makes most of the hybrids an expensive redundant proposition. The amount of mark -up and the tax-subsidies obtained from the Government is a full fledged conspiracy by the Lithium lobby. They feel threatened by the high mileage diesels from VW and the sale of hybrids would suffer if the high mileage diesels became popular.
The Lithium car batteries are the next big gold mine for the Lithium Lobby as the sales for laptops and cellphone batteries has reached a plateau .

stever

So, coming soon to a TV near you?

Clean Lithium.

Ain't no free lunch.

EVs have a lot of appeal to me because of the lower operating costs. No oil changes, etc. And when you have a single point of pollution (a mine, a power plant), it can be easier to monitor for emissions than trying to herd a bunch of rolling coal cats spreading thire fumes all over every square inch.

iluvmysephia1

So far it seems Tesla with what is it - the E that's supposed to sell for $35,000 - or Kia with the Soul EV that are my favorites. But, it's that range deal. The E will go twice as far as the Soul EV will go. Neither is enough to get my finger twitching, though.

carboy21

stever said:

So, coming soon to a TV near you?

Clean Lithium.

Ain't no free lunch.

EVs have a lot of appeal to me because of the lower operating costs. No oil changes, etc. And when you have a single point of pollution (a mine, a power plant), it can be easier to monitor for emissions than trying to herd a bunch of rolling coal cats spreading thire fumes all over every square inch.

Not in my backyard syndrome

stever

NOPE.

Not On Planet Earth, if you don't know that one. Grab an asteroid to mine, beam power down from space, leave Gaia alone.

Mr_Shiftright

There's a much simpler explanation that doesn't require phantom lobbies----the EV and hybrids are breathing down diesels' back in terms of economy and getting better all the time. It is this very threat that probably compelled VW to cheat, thus protecting their immense investment in diesel technology.

VW might have bet on the wrong horse, whilst Toyota did not.

Essentially EVs and hybrids are winning in the marketplace, where the voting is done by checkbook. It's a one-two punch. If you don't like the range of the EVs, you opt for the hybrid. Diesel is still the #3 choice (some might say for the most discriminating buyer) because you cannot perceive the amoritization of the extra cost of the diesel.

Whether true or not, most buyers see hybrids and diesel as being on par with each other in fuel economy and operating costs. This is obviously true, because, well, it's happening in front of our eyes.

carboy21 said:

It will be obvious that the Lithium producers lobby is trying hard to suppress the Diesel cars as it feels threatened by the high mileage obtained by this diesel cars which makes most of the hybrids an expensive redundant proposition. The amount of mark -up and the tax-subsidies obtained from the Government is a full fledged conspiracy by the Lithium lobby. They feel threatened by the high mileage diesels from VW and the sale of hybrids would suffer if the high mileage diesels became popular.
The Lithium car batteries are the next big gold mine for the Lithium Lobby as the sales for laptops and cellphone batteries has reached a plateau .