What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

ruking1

carboy21 said:

When the gassers are tested as thoroughly as the diesels were by the WV University researchers ., diesels will will appear such a culprit .  Let there be level playing field .Yes there is an anti diesel lobby . And they are the same ones who promote EV and hybrids and the gassers . Even the gasser lobby fears  the diesel lobby as there is nothing superior about them compared to the diesels .

To me, gas and gas hybrids have very easy tasks to "out value" (like model) diesels.

1. Get better mpg
2. Get more torque
3. Get 900 mile range
4. Be more road able
5. Be cheaper to repair
6. Be more durable (anecdotally, & way over 12 years/180,000 miles)
7. Be more reliable (anecdotally)
8. Cheaper cpmd: fuel
9. Cost way less
10. Have much better resale value
11. Get over 30,000 miles OCI's

Then, I'd be all over them! So really, I am not hard to please!

Oh and all eco geeks (said & meant with deepest respect) need to do is to come up with the killer application: patented process to refine a barrel of oil from a minimum of: 19 gals of gasoline and 10 gal of diesel, to no diesel!! And for cost benefit, a minimum of 10 more gals of gasoline for a minimum of 29 gals!

Funny, diesel can be chemically "built anywhere" there is access to natural gas & proper chemistry! Not to list the numerous other way & places diesel can come from.

Mr_Shiftright

Energy companies and automakers are diesel allies, not enemies. If anything, historically speaking, automakers and oil companies lobbied to kill EVs. Hybrids are gasoline cars with batteries attached. They are also allied to any type of ICE.

Do electric vehicles even have a lobby? Who are they? (lobbyists have to register and "show their books"). Do independent EV companies lobby against EVs made by Nissan and BMW?

What would be the motive of environmental groups to single out just diesels and ignore all other ICEs?

None of it makes sense to me. There seems a far more obvious answer. VW killed themselves. Corporate suicide.

ruking1

VW has historically sold WAY more gassers ( in US markets) than diesels both volume & % ! It is only recently that the gasser majorities has/have fallen to 77% GASSERS!

carboy21

Do electric vehicles even have a lobby? Who are they? (lobbyists have to register and "show their books"). Do independent EV companies lobby against EVs made by Nissan and BMW?


EV lobbyist are the leftist green weenes with stakes in the Lithium lobby .
Toyota makes Priuses so they can sell gas guzzling pick ups and SUVs
Other automakers make EVs and Hybrids to appear politically correct and appease the Obama, nimbys , green weenies and the tree huggers ., and to appear PC.

ruking1

Mr_Shiftright said:

Energy companies and automakers are diesel allies, not enemies. If anything, historically speaking, automakers and oil companies lobbied to kill EVs. Hybrids are gasoline cars with batteries attached. They are also allied to any type of ICE.

Do electric vehicles even have a lobby? Who are they? (lobbyists have to register and "show their books"). Do independent EV companies lobby against EVs made by Nissan and BMW?

What would be the motive of environmental groups to single out just diesels and ignore all other ICEs?

None of it makes sense to me. There seems a far more obvious answer. VW killed themselves. Corporate suicide.

Don't leave out the fact that the "governments" make more money than the oil companies for the sale of oil company products!

So yes, total witchhunts, total "anti" wars, total fairytales !!

Like I continue to say, I can't even make this stuff up

Mr_Shiftright

"EV lobbyist are the leftist green weenes with stakes in the Lithium lobby."

So you're saying that lithium battery companies pay environmentalist who are also stockholders to lobby against gas and diesel automakers?

That doesn't make sense to me either, because hybrids use lithium batteries, as do all kinds of electronic devices. And environmentalists (I mean real ones) are gravely concerned about lithium battery disposal.

"Toyota makes Priuses so they can sell gas guzzling pick ups and SUVs"

That seems like a convoluted explanation that has a much simpler answer: Toyota hasn't made much profit on the Prius because not enough consumers bought them. If hybrids have a lobby, it's been a big flop. So the lack of profitability of the Prius suggests that there is no lobby or its a failure, not the killer of diesels.

"Other automakers make EVs and Hybrids to appear politically correct and appease the Obama, nimbys , green"

So automakers only make EVs and Hybrids to appease the President and appear holy? No profit motive whatsoever in what they do? Wouldn't a more rational interpretation be that by investing billions of dollars on EVs and hybrids and selling them at a profit, their intention was to appease environmentalists AND corporate stockholders at the same time? Spending billions of dollars on profitless gadgets for PR purposes sounds pretty far-fetched.

ruking1

I really don't get what you are NOT getting! Unless you are doing the Devils' Advocate chores. Without getting technical or POLITICAL, it is about strange bedfellows!

We have "pre spent" billions if not trillions of $$'s destabilizing the middle east & securing Afganistan for Chinese rare earth & other mineral contracts! It's not hard to see where things are going. Now whether it's morall/immoral, just/unjust, you,I, we like it/ NOT are whole different other discussions.

Funny thing that did NOT happen in the Eco [non-permissible content removed] narrative was price of oil/ going sky high!!! i.e., gas going to $10 to $15 per gal US? With all this H/S & gun smoke, the prices are @ LOWS!

Mr_Shiftright

Sorry, I'm not getting this explanation of corporate and lobbyists alleged motives, because I see no benefit to such actions, as you describe them. I see more obvious explanations in plain sight for how and why things happened as they did, so I'm going with those. Also I find that the idea of lithium-battery companies financing environmental activism as implausible, since environmentalists are presently holding battery companies' feet to the fire about battery-recycling. Also, environmental groups are notoriously under-funded vis a vis corporate pocketbooks.

EV and Hybrid interests lobbying against automakers seems highly counter-intuitive, and corporations spending billions on unprofitable products to appease someone politically is just....well....even more counter-intuitive.

I think normal market forces coupled with corporate corruption clearly explain both the tepid diesel car market and the VW disaster.

ruking1

Thanks for the clarification ! I've always understood why you don't ( want to) get it ! Let's move on!

texases

ruking1 said:

Thanks for the clarification ! I've always gotten why you don't want to get it ! Let's move on!

Oh, shifty (and I) 'get it'. We really do. There are no conspiracies, just a greedy company that got caught cheating. It's that simple.

ruking1

texases said:

ruking1 said:

Thanks for the clarification ! I've always gotten why you don't want to get it ! Let's move on!

Oh, shifty (and I) 'get it'. We really do. There are no conspiracies, just a greedy company that got caught cheating. It's that simple.

Well, yes & no ! MB & BMW, etc. would be natural TDI beneficiaries, IF it were as simple as you claim ! But, it has been a CLARION call for total TDI devastation/annihilation with only one company being in the gunsights. So, ZERO hidden conspiracies! The anti diesel forces are alive , well & flourishing! It's a lie to insinuate that I am claiming a secret conspiracy, YOU are falsely making that claim about my position. To state the obvious, again, US VW sales are overwhelmingly gasser! @ 73%. So yes, an open diesel witch hunt!

So after all the brouhaha dies down, with no ban or impossible specifications, diesel sales will resume its' upward percentage % point gains, albeit slowly, per normal.

I'm not holding my breath for one to all needed 13 points that (I posted earlier) gassers have to meet to come to fruition ! When they get anywhere close, I'll run the numbers, like I always do! Diesel on till then!

So if one is in the gasser market, VW is offering great ZERO % financing and great discounts! Want to spend more? Don't like VWs? Don't get a VW!

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2015/11/08/toyota-motor-corp-rolls-in-october-and-volkswagen.aspx?source=eogyholnk0000001&utm_source=yahoo&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=article

houdini1

texases said:

ruking1 said:

Thanks for the clarification ! I've always gotten why you don't want to get it ! Let's move on!

Oh, shifty (and I) 'get it'. We really do. There are no conspiracies, just a greedy company that got caught cheating. It's that simple.

I totally understand how you feel. It 's the same way I felt a couple of years ago when those damning global warming cover-up emails were leaked. Just a bunch of greedy cheaters. I'm sure you agree, right?

ruking1

For the Chicken Littles, here's the C... S! Warning, this article is not sound bite able!

http://news.yahoo.com/unbearable-lightness-chinese-emissions-data-212913824.html

SJMN article. Another environmental vs environmental vs environmental fight/s brewing in Morrow Bay CA for a ocean based floating wind farm. Long story short, 24 cents per kWh wholesale price, IF the farm becomes operational. I can't even hazard a guess what it will be to Joe Six Pack consumer!?

http://www.mercurynews.com/science/ci_29086397/californias-first-ocean-wind-farm-works

stever

"Several Volkswagen engineers have admitted manipulating carbon dioxide emissions data, saying the ambitious goals set by former Chief Executive Martin Winterkorn were difficult to achieve, Bild am Sonntag reported.

The paper said VW engineers tampered with tyre pressure and mixed diesel with their motor oil to make them use less fuel, a deception that began in 2013 and carried on until the spring of this year."

VW engineers have admitted manipulating CO2 emissions data-paper (Reuters)

stever

"Experts have definitely noticed how Volkswagen wants to deflect focus from diesels and focus more instead on hybrids and EVs. “VW was over half the market for all diesel passenger cars sold in the U.S. That’s what they’re known for, so clearly, they want to change that image,” said Edmunds.com senior analyst Jessica Caldwell. “As a result, you’re seeing a lot more emphasis on hybrids and EVs moving forward, as they try to distance themselves from the whole diesel scandal.”

Volkswagen deflects attention from diesels by focusing on hybrids, EVs (modernreaders.com)

Mr_Shiftright

Straw man argument, let's not go there.

OK! Let's presume that there WAS some conspiracy to sink diesel cars in America.....fair enough

Then the question is: What percentage of the demise of the TDI do you attribute directly to VW and what % to the effectiveness of the conspirators? None? 50%. %? How responsible is VW for this mess?

As some of us are diesel car enthusiasts, where do we assign the blame for what may soon be the demise of the entire diesel car market in the USA?

houdini1 said:

texases said:

ruking1 said:

Thanks for the clarification ! I've always gotten why you don't want to get it ! Let's move on!

Oh, shifty (and I) 'get it'. We really do. There are no conspiracies, just a greedy company that got caught cheating. It's that simple.

I totally understand how you feel. It 's the same way I felt a couple of years ago when those damning global warming cover-up emails were leaked. Just a bunch of greedy cheaters. I'm sure you agree, right?

carboy21

Mr_Shiftright said:

Straw man argument, let's not go there.

OK! Let's presume that there WAS some conspiracy to sink diesel cars in America.....fair enough

Then the question is: What percentage of the demise of the TDI do you attribute directly to VW and what % to the effectiveness of the conspirators? None? 50%. %? How responsible is VW for this mess?

As some of us are diesel car enthusiasts, where do we assign the blame for what may soon be the demise of the entire diesel car market in the USA?

houdini1 said:

texases said:

ruking1 said:

Thanks for the clarification ! I've always gotten why you don't want to get it ! Let's move on!

Oh, shifty (and I) 'get it'. We really do. There are no conspiracies, just a greedy company that got caught cheating. It's that simple.

I totally understand how you feel. It 's the same way I felt a couple of years ago when those damning global warming cover-up emails were leaked. Just a bunch of greedy cheaters. I'm sure you agree, right?

Hahahahahaha

Demise of the entire diesel car market ?

Why ?

Because VW cheated ?

You think diesels cause smog ? asthma ? cancer ? premature deaths ? AIDS ? Alzheimers disease ? global warming ? death of the penguins and polar bears ?

There will always be diesels from BMW, MB, Chrysler, GM, and other future makers .

You are too quick to pronounce the death of the diesel . Do you belong to an anti-diesel lobby ?

I do not believe that ""ECO [non-permissible content removed]"" will be able to kill the diesel cars in the USA.

In fact many new manufacturers will come out with diesels since VW diesels will be out of the market leaving a demand .

mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/videoController.action?op=playVideo&playlistId=1DD18B423A1D109E&videoId=cK5SQkEUBdo

caranddriver.com/reviews/2014-mazda-6-sedan-first-drive-review

I would buy diesel any day over the Namby Pamby Wimpy hybrids and the golf cart like EVs :laughing:

Mr_Shiftright

I'm not predicting the demise of the diesel car market. I am predicting the death of the TDI brand in the marketplace. You may be right that other diesel car makers will fill the gap, presuming they aren't running scared at this point.

I have no skin in the game regarding diesels. Bring on all the players. May the best car win! Let the buyers decide.

BTW, you didn't answer my question. No opinion?

carboy21

Then the question is: What percentage of the demise of the TDI do you attribute directly to VW and what % to the effectiveness of the conspirators? None? 50%. %? How responsible is VW for this mess?


My opinion

EPA/ CARB set extremely unreasonable standards for Nox emissions , which the VW found it too expensive to comply given that they do not rob the bank like the BMW/MB diesels. They could have complied but the TDI would have been as expensive as the BMW/MB thus losing out to the luxury and more famous brands.

So they cheated.

Blame fifty percent each to EPA and VW.

Conspirators get 50% blame as EPA = Conspirators

ruking1

Mr_Shiftright said:

I'm not predicting the demise of the diesel car market. I am predicting the death of the TDI brand in the marketplace. You may be right that other diesel car makers will fill the gap, presuming they aren't running scared at this point.

I have no skin in the game regarding diesels. Bring on all the players. May the best car win! Let the buyers decide.

BTW, you didn't answer my question. No opinion?

The Insiders: Inconvenient numbers for the global warming crowd

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2015/11/04/the-insiders-inconvenient-numbers-for-the-global-warming-crowd/

The War Against Exxon Mobil

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-war-against-exxon-mobil/2015/11/08/094ff978-84a6-11e5-8ba6-cec48b74b2a7_story.html?hpid=hp_no-name_opinion-card-c:homepage/story

stever

ruking1 said:

The War Against Exxon Mobil

Big Oil is the new tobacco. Diesel is the snuff part of the equation.

carboy21

Unreasonable EPA diesel Nox standards are anti-diesel and stifling the diesel car introductions in the USA.

greencarreports.com/news/1096944_mazda-diesel-still-on-tap-but-performance-must-be-suitable-exec-says

Anti-Diesel lobby at work

houdini1

stever said:

ruking1 said:

The War Against Exxon Mobil

Big Oil is the new tobacco. Diesel is the snuff part of the equation.

Great rebuttal.

ruking1

Yes, that's why the VW et al, stock crash was a no-brainer, & to make money & fast. It worked VERY VERY VERY well! Minus - 150 point move is ...huge! This is not counting what has happened in the oil markets this past year.

On a VW consumer level, CNBC just announced three items to the VW Goodwill Package: $500 gift certificate, $500 VW dealer certificate, 3 years/36,000 miles road side assist.

texases

ruking1 said:

Yes, that's why the VW et al, stock crash was a no-brainer to make money & fast.

On a VW consumer level, CNBC just announced that there's three items to the VW Goodwill Package: $500 gift certificate,$500 VW dealer certificate, 3 years/36,000 miles road side assist.

I wonder if the VW has to be 'fixed' to get the $$...

stever

Or if you have to agree to opt-out of any class action or personal suits. Apparently not.

The 3/36 is a new addition to the reports I've seen. That's a nice touch that probably won't cost VW much but will help with the goodwill.

VW Goodwill Package FAQ (pdf)

Eligibility link.

texases

So no 'fix' required. I'm surprised.

Mr_Shiftright

Here's the BREAKDOWN on VW DIESELS NEEDING REPAIR

Looks like the older TDIs will be the biggest problem. The new models will just get a software update, retain their fuel economy, but drop some in performance....so they say. The new models only constitute 67,000 cars but the older ones represent 325,000 cars that might need major work.

Mr_Shiftright

I actually don't believe an "anti-diesel" lobby even exists. If there is one, they should quit, turn out the lights and sell their office furniture, because VW is doing a much better job of it.

stever

I think VW is spreading the goodwill money around now instead of waiting for a "fix" because of the decrease in value of the cars that's already happened.

texases

My understanding was the newer models that already had urea injection had software that cut down the injection rates to allow 10,000 miles or so between urea fills, instead of about 5,000 miles at the needed injection rate. Would seem to be a simple fix, only impact is more DEF use.

Mr_Shiftright

It's particularly interesting now because other automakers are remarking how they couldn't figure out how older VW TDIs were passing emissions without urea-injection. Now we know how.

ruking1

Mr_Shiftright said:

I actually don't believe an "anti-diesel" lobby even exists. If there is one, they should quit, turn out the lights and sell their office furniture, because VW is doing a much better job of it.

I think they will miss the harping! So no!

On the anti diesel folks, it is more than obvious you and I agree to disagree.

Well, the brouhaha has certainly taken the SLOW out of slow diesel news day!

But I must admit, it is nice to wake up to about $ 1,200 more (VW GW package) than I had yesterday!

So that's about 6% more than what I paid to begin with six years ago (not counting the IRS $1,200 tax CREDIT) !

$1,200 is 14% over high BLUE book now!

Geez, I sure wish I needed another vehicle!

ruking1

Mr_Shiftright said:

It's particularly interesting now because other automakers are remarking how they couldn't figure out how older VW TDIs were passing emissions without urea-injection. Now we know how.

No, I think they suspected all along !

Mr_Shiftright

Maybe so, maybe so.

In any event, if VW can push ahead with its future "e-diesel" program (basically a bio-fuel engine), that might win back enough VW customers to breath some life back into the USA diesel market as a "green technology". But with only 3% diesel cars in the US, versus 55% in Europe, it's going to be a long road back I think.

The dreaded ghost of GM's diesel debacle still walks the halls at night in America.

texases

Uh-oh, 'bio-diesel'. So now lets talk about the rainforests that have been leveled in SE Asia to plant palm oil plantations...

Mr_Shiftright

Well that's a matter of proper governmental land use regulation. If the biodiesel fuel stock is grown on existing cropland, the environmental impact is negligible. But if it causes deforestation, then the benefits of biodiesel are negated by the release of trapped gases under the earth and of course, the loss of the vegetation in the forest.

Much of Asia operates under a high level of corruption so one wouldn't expect land use regulations to be heavily enforced.

The best response would be of course to not support any fuel stock that is not grown properly. I'm sure oil companies would strip the earth down to the last twig, so government would have to play a major role in biodiesel production.

You'd need the same environmental protections that are now in force for the oil industry. I've always believed that a nation's natural resources belong to every citizen and should not be looted indiscriminately.

ruking1

To be sure that is one way Chicken Little way of getting bio diesel ! But all that nervous energy & brainpower should/could be put in the plethora of other environmentally better ways biodiesel can be harvested. To name some : landfills, recycle centers, livestock farms, processing plants, cattle stockyards, sewer treatment plants. There are WAY more etcs,.

There are tremendous VAST tracks of US governments lands, right away land used for highways, roads, bridges,railroads, etc. that can be used to grow biodiesel feedstock instead of weeds, or develop weed strains that can be harvested FOR biodiesel.

texases

Plenty of discussion on this problem. Europe mandated biodiesel, SE Asia was more than happy to supply it:
http://e360.yale.edu/feature/the_cost_of_the_biofuel_boom_destroying_indonesias_forests/2112/

ruking1

For US VW consumers, HAPPY SALE DAYS ( in a sad kind of way!) $ 10,000 discount on a $25,000 vehicle! ? WOW! One almost can't afford to buy a used Honda!

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/volkswagen-buy-back-customers-10-114708980.html

Those kinds of offers approaches EPIC!

One almost have to be an extreme chicken Little or SEVERELY math challenged, to not even consider these cars, if one is in the market ! I'm not, but I'm getting totally motivated !

Mr_Shiftright

Could be a great opportunity for someone but keep in mind the Golden Rule: "Whatever gets you into a car cheaply, will haunt you when it comes time to sell". So, for someone like yourself, who might tend to keep a car a long time---no problem. For someone who intends to flip it in a year or two, perhaps a bit more risk. Still, if this really happened, I'd go down to the showroom and take a look myself.

stever

I checked my dealer this morning. Las Cruces is a poor town I guess, the dealers rarely stock stuff here other than the base models. I didn't really check out the Passats though, was searching the Golfs (er, the Golf singular) and looked at a couple of Sportwagens online.

>>nation's natural resources belong to every citizen and should not be looted indiscriminately

Ah Shifty, next you'll be calling for reform of the General Mining Act of 1872. We'll see mining of those asteroids before that happens.

>> VAST tracks of US governments lands, right away land used for highways, roads, bridges,railroads, etc. that can be used to grow biodiesel feedstock instead of weeds.

But with autonomous cars and semis running 24/7, we'll need less asphalt in general. You have to be careful of those median plantings too. Lots of carnage happens when you make the dead zones livable (mostly bird and critter carnage, but it's a hazard having those critters flying or running out in front of you on the freeway).

ruking1

I just ran some numbers and even if I sell the 2009 VW Jetta TDI @ medium blue book, numbers are STILL "favorable" ! ?
Bottom line: cost of ownership per mile driven would be about 4.8 cents!

carboy21

My local VW dealer does not have any Passats ! And just a handful of golf and sport wagons. Very thin inventory with about $3k off the msrp on all of them .

stever

I don't think my dealer ever stocks that many cars. They have 34 new VWs showing on their web site at the moment. But we're only 100,000 in population too.

Mr_Shiftright

Say, wait---I can't even buy the gas for 4.8 cents a mile, much less insurance, repairs and replacement items. How are you figuring this?

ruking1 said:

I just ran some numbers and even if I sell the 2009 VW Jetta TDI @ medium blue book, numbers are STILL "favorable" ! ?
Bottom line: cost of ownership per mile driven would be about 4.8 cents!

carboy21

stever said:

I don't think my dealer ever stocks that many cars. They have 34 new VWs showing on their web site at the moment. But we're only 100,000 in population too.

Discounts on 5 Passat sedans faulknervolkswagen.com/VehicleSearchResults?search=new&make=Volkswagen&model=Passat+Sedan&bodyType=CAR&trim=&series=&minYear=&maxYear=&minPrice=&maxPrice=&vehicleType=

ruking1

Mr_Shiftright said:

Say, wait---I can't even buy the gas for 4.8 cents a mile, much less insurance, repairs and replacement items. How are you figuring this?

ruking1 said:

I just ran some numbers and even if I sell the 2009 VW Jetta TDI @ medium blue book, numbers are STILL "favorable" ! ?
Bottom line: cost of ownership per mile driven would be about 4.8 cents!

That is just depreciation ! Aka cost of ownership = cpmd: depreciation. (price paid in 2009, minus tax credit, minus VW GW package, minus middle BB / miles= cpmd: depreciation ) I did NOT give or state cpmd: total !

I really did not want the (extra cost) sunroof and automatic. But then, you would accuse me of scratching the black board with sharp long fingernails.

So yes, I was being a tad facetious. It's pretty damned good!

As I've said in the past, VW stepped up and paid for the HPFP (high-pressure fuel pump) issue that was out of warranty. They also have done (free of charge) many small items! So for example, it would not have a dollar value in the cost of repairs: cpmd.

stevedebi

Mr_Shiftright said:

Maybe so, maybe so.

In any event, if VW can push ahead with its future "e-diesel" program (basically a bio-fuel engine), that might win back enough VW customers to breath some life back into the USA diesel market as a "green technology". But with only 3% diesel cars in the US, versus 55% in Europe, it's going to be a long road back I think.

The dreaded ghost of GM's diesel debacle still walks the halls at night in America.

Future would have to be right. The current engines essentially cannot use bio diesel. 5%, I believe. I saw a good price on gas driving the Interstate last August - turns out it was 20%, and we had to find another station.

ruking1

I thought you all would get a kick out of this: in GA, Valero ULSD @ $ 1.98, RUG @ $ 2.05.

So for 50 mpg/3.96 cents, 40mpg/4.95 cents, 35mpg/5.66 cents!