What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

carboy21

Essentially EVs and hybrids are winning in the marketplace, where the voting is done by checkbook. It's a one-two punch. If you don't like the range of the EVs, you opt for the hybrid. Diesel is still the #3 choice (some might say for the most discriminating buyer) because you cannot perceive the amoritization of the extra cost of the diesel.


And EV and Hybrids come cheaper then Diesels ??

ruking1

stever said:

So, coming soon to a TV near you?

Clean Lithium.

Ain't no free lunch.

EVs have a lot of appeal to me because of the lower operating costs. No oil changes, etc. And when you have a single point of pollution (a mine, a power plant), it can be easier to monitor for emissions than trying to herd a bunch of rolling coal cats spreading thire fumes all over every square inch.

With all due respect, those notions and those like it are total pipe dreams! ! They are utterly absurd! The " operating " costs (EV, battery, etc.,) are far higher than gasoline, diesel etc. will ever be! Ideed that is an absolutely no brainer reason why Germany has started to shift back to (massive) coal consumption, wood pellet consumption, etc. Also in a couple of years Germany will probably massively regret the decision to take nuclear off line.

I have run the cost per mile driven to run EV any number of times. Guess what ? Everybody's eyes glaze over, like I am speaking an alien Area 51 language! Everybody's (by total lack of debate) OK with spending more! The problem is: nobody ( relatively ) really ...is!

I mean really guys, you know you anti diesel guys are all in denial! It really starts with a simple question: which consumes more/less (LIKE model MB GLK 350/250BT) 22 mpg PUG or 35 mpg ULSD ?

Europe wants Putin far less as a critical energy supplier than even us, the US!

stever

The sooner I can weld my hood shut, the better.

Unfortunately that's likely to be 2050 and I won't be around to enjoy it. 2030 would be the best case scenario, absent some amazing battery breakthrough, and we've had 100 years to try to improve on that.

carboy21

Utopian dream to be fulfilled in 2050  

A battery powered car with the torque , mpg and the range of a diesel . And  ofcourse no gasoline engine to save your bacon when you run out of juice in the middle of the Mohave desert .

stever

I was just getting around to posting about how much I love California and you edited your post.

Speaking of tasty breakfast meats, WHO puts bacon in the same category as diesel exhaust and tobacco. (theracquet.org)

Interesting blog post from the industry side.

"How the road-fuel market looks post 2050 depends in a large part on which technology wins favour. Which will be the Betamax and which the VHS of the new fuel revolution? "

The writing on the wall (argusmedia.com)

carboy21

I know a group of scientists doing their research at a secret facility based in the Area 51, Nevada . They are developing a car engine which can run on hydrogen derived from water . All you need is to fill your car fuel tank with heavy water  and a  mini fusion reactor  splits the hydrogen from water and gives out pure oxygen as exhaust which is piped back into the cabin to give fresh rejuvenating air inside the car. This mini fusion reactor is of course patented  by Elon Musk  and will be available to all carmakers for a royalty payment . First hydrogen powered car will be rolling out in 2050 . 

ruking1

stever said:

I was just getting around to posting about how much I love California and you edited your post.

Speaking of tasty breakfast meats, WHO puts bacon in the same category as diesel exhaust and tobacco. (theracquet.org)

Interesting blog post from the industry side.

"How the road-fuel market looks post 2050 depends in a large part on which technology wins favour. Which will be the Betamax and which the VHS of the new fuel revolution? "

The writing on the wall (argusmedia.com)

Yes, I have been saying these things in my posts, albeit, one needs to read between the lines. One example, you might have forgot me talking of 30 year diesel car use!? The broader US use of diesel will actually bring down gasoline use ? So it actually is a victim of its own success.

On the gasoline side even though my Land Cruiser's are approaching 23 years old & posting 14 to 16 mpg, the avg 2015 PUTruck & SUV is maybe 1 to 2 mpg better! I am being optimistic here!

ruking1

carboy21 said:

I know a group of scientists doing their research at a secret facility based in the Area 51, Nevada . They are developing a car engine which can run on hydrogen derived from water . All you need is to fill your car fuel tank with heavy water  and a  mini fusion reactor  splits the hydrogen from water and gives out pure oxygen as exhaust which is piped back into the cabin to give fresh rejuvenating air inside the car. This mini fusion reactor is of course patented  by Elon Musk  and will be available to all carmakers for a royalty payment . First hydrogen powered car will be rolling out in 2050 . 

Absolutely! It really has only been a matter of time! Musk is, how would you say, the embodiment of the Wayne Gretsky sound bite concept: skate to where the puck will BE, ( not where the puck has been)

Back in the early 1980s, I oversaw some test ranges, where & when they were developing drones. My reaction at the time after looking at the test data and actual tests, was: give it 30 years to hit the commercial markets. Not far off, eh? (33 years)

gagrice

Ruking:On the gasoline side even though my Land Cruiser's are approaching 23 years old & posting 14 to 16 mpg, the avg 2015 PUTruck & SUV is maybe 1 to 2 mpg better! I am being optimistic here!

I have reached the conclusion I will live with the 16 MPG I am getting with my Nissan Frontier PU. For those worried about my bald tires and the El Nino rains we are hoping for, I put a new set of tires on this morning. I decided to go with BRIDGESTONE DUELER H/L ALENZA PLUS. Discount Tire matched Costco price of $128.49 so they got my business again. I give high marks to Discount tire. They include life time rotation and balancing. Much more positive ride than the old OEM Dumlop GRANDTREK AT21s.

http://www.bridgestonetire.com/tire/dueler-hl-alenza-plus

Mr_Shiftright

2050? They'll be grafting new heads onto bodies by 2050!

I see diesel and gasoline cars both tied to the same fate. Whatever happens to the one, will happen to the other.

carboy21 said:

I know a group of scientists doing their research at a secret facility based in the Area 51, Nevada . They are developing a car engine which can run on hydrogen derived from water . All you need is to fill your car fuel tank with heavy water  and a  mini fusion reactor  splits the hydrogen from water and gives out pure oxygen as exhaust which is piped back into the cabin to give fresh rejuvenating air inside the car. This mini fusion reactor is of course patented  by Elon Musk  and will be available to all carmakers for a royalty payment . First hydrogen powered car will be rolling out in 2050 . 

ruking1

gagrice said:

Ruking:On the gasoline side even though my Land Cruiser's are approaching 23 years old & posting 14 to 16 mpg, the avg 2015 PUTruck & SUV is maybe 1 to 2 mpg better! I am being optimistic here!

I have reached the conclusion I will live with the 16 MPG I am getting with my Nissan Frontier PU. For those worried about my bald tires and the El Nino rains we are hoping for, I put a new set of tires on this morning. I decided to go with BRIDGESTONE DUELER H/L ALENZA PLUS. Discount Tire matched Costco price of $128.49 so they got my business again. I give high marks to Discount tire. They include life time rotation and balancing. Much more positive ride than the old OEM Dumlop GRANDTREK AT21s.

http://www.bridgestonetire.com/tire/dueler-hl-alenza-plus

Great choice on tire set by the way! I'm especially interested in it, as they would probably be the MB GLK 250 BT's next tire set choice.

Chevrolet's Colorado's TDI.

https://www.yahoo.com/autos/s/2016-chevrolet-colorado-diesel-first-192500578.html

stever

ruking1 said:

Back in the early 1980s, I oversaw some test ranges, where & when they were developing drones.

5 years ago I was chasing my cats around the living room with a "drone". Fancy name for a RC copter. Only difference now is that the micro cameras are cheap enough to stick on the drone (back in my day, sonny, I had to put my camera on a tripod to capture the drone action).

"Diesels on the decline in Europe?

Ghosn said that the diesel market in Europe is going to depend a lot on the new standard. “Which means that we have to be ready for the decline of diesel no matter what—the decline of diesel in Europe,” Ghosn said.

“There is such a backlash on diesel today—which by the way didn’t start with the unfortunate event of one of our competitors, it started before...But I would say that today is about the maximum that we can expect for diesel in Europe.”

Volkswagen scandal woes spread to other diesel automakers in Europe (csmonitor.com)

stever

The Truth About Cars says the fix is in - for February.

EXCLUSIVE: Volkswagen Diesel Emissions Fixes to Begin in US in February

The fix is going to be an ECU flash. There may be more corrections for some models, but that's all that's being reported right now.

gagrice

Sounds like the EPA is trying to act like they are not dumber than a box of rocks. Could backfire on the bunch of losers. I would be surprised if that agency has anyone working for them that could figure out what is or is not a cheat device. They did not figure anything out. It was all handed to them. EPA should be firing a bunch of people that let that cheating slip by in the first place. Or be sued for all the massive deaths it will cause.

Responding to the Environmental Protection Agency’s notification that it had uncovered an illegal “defeat device” in some 3-liter, diesel Audi, Volkswagen and Porsche models, Volkswagen AG said in a statement Monday that it “wishes to emphasize that no software has been installed in the 3-liter V6 diesel power units to alter emissions characteristics in a forbidden manner.”

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2015/11/volkswagen-epa-disagree-defeat-device-3-liter-models/

ruking1

stever said:

The Truth About Cars says the fix is in - for February.

EXCLUSIVE: Volkswagen Diesel Emissions Fixes to Begin in US in February


This whole fiasco has been much ado about not much! I suspect that after certain amount of time, they will resume diesel sales on the US markets

fintail

I am in Germany now - everything is diesel here, no actual people (as opposed to SJWs and greenie weenies) seem to care. VW thing is all over the news, but in Munich, nobody seems concerned - as this is BMW territory, they are probably laughing inside.

I did see a Fisker (!) and a bunch of Prius V taxis, but no private Prius. Tons of E class diesel taxis too, of course.

houdini1

I hope it is grafting new bodies onto old heads. I'll keep my head but could sure use a new body.

Mr_Shiftright

I don't think the VW scandal will hurt the existing U.S. market for diesels (people who like them and understand them will continue to buy them) but it may retard its expansion.

ruking1

Mr_Shiftright said:

I don't think the VW scandal will hurt the existing U.S. market for diesels (people who like them and understand them will continue to buy them) but it may retard its expansion.

Since the start of the VW fiasco, it has been absolutely and totally uneventful and seamless on this side of the Bay Area. I am sure the VW dealerships do not perceive it that way. My take, unless there is an out right ban on diesels, the diesel populations will continue to grow, albeit slowly, as it has historically grown. Again depending on what percentages one want to believe, that PVF is anywhere from 3% to 5% of the US passenger vehicle fleet. NHSTA 2013 = 269.3 M. So to provide a baseline, etc., 13.465 M to 8.079 M units. Half of these units are diesel cars= 6.7325 M to 4.0395 M units.

The real anomaly is that gas hybrids are actually less % of the US PVF ! This is even though they've been ballyhooed, promoted, depicted as saviors of global climate change!

I also don't hold my breath for the definitive recall fix/es. EPA/CARB is going to jerk VW around for as long as they can, before they give reluctant approvals & blame their caused delays on VW. So my guess, from the time I get a recall notice, to when it hits the shop, should be sometime in 2018. If it is indeed a reflash as they anticipate. It should take all of 10 minutes.

carboy21

Persecution of the VW diesels has been instigated by the EV and hybrid car lobby. VW made the worlds best and affordable diesel cars for the common man unlike the BMW and MB diesels which most people cannot afford.
The EPA and CARB set unreasonable and arbitrary emissions standards to persecute the VW.
Diesels will again be popular all over the world once these climate change [non-permissible content removed] are put in their place.
Health hazard from diesel car emissions have been blown out of proportion when there are more hazardous emissions from heavy machinery and trucks and locomotives.

texases

Turn the cheaters into victims...ok...

carboy21

texases said:

Turn the cheaters into victims...ok...

Yes, victims of the EV and Hybrid car lobby.

texases

Don't see how they forced VW to break the law.

stever

In other news, when I search for the lastest stories about diesels, my search term is "diesel -vin". I exclude Vin, otherwise I'd get a bunch of Fast and Furious hits.

What's been bugging me for months though, is why Vin Diesel drives a gasser Yukon, gives away gasser Dodge Chargers and drives Honda Accords in the movie....

carboy21

They led the EPA to set unattainable emissions standards for diesels , which would have resulted in emasculating the diesels or jacking up the final price by using Urea injection systems, thus making them as expensive as BMW and MB, to whom they would be forced to pay royalties.

Passat TDI == $25 K

BMW 328 d == $35k

stever

All just to clean up the air a bit. Imagine the hubris....

I think this may be the dealer my sister got her Y2K Bug from. Haven't heard if she got the letter.

Volkswagen dealer sends apology to diesel owners (cardealermagazine.co.uk

carboy21

stever said:

All just to clean up the air a bit. Imagine the hubris....


Volkswagen dealer sends apology to diesel owners (cardealermagazine.co.uk

Air quality will remain the same as diesels were just 2.5 % of total cars sold annually .

texases

Passat TDI has urea system.

carboy21

texases said:

Passat TDI has urea system.

So the system did not work ?

texases

Correct, they rigged it for better mpgs/power, I think.

carboy21

EPA tests were rigged more likely . If they can pass EPA emissions with Urea system, it makes no sense to rig it.

carboy21

They should have paid EPA off , like others must have done .

stever

With all the real world testing supposedly going on, maybe we'll be hearing some more stories around the first of the year.

ruking1

stever said:

With all the real world testing supposedly going on, maybe we'll be hearing some more stories around the first of the year.

My prediction: it will become overwhelmingly apparent NON compliance is the RULE, not the exception, on the 97 % to 95% gasser side! Already late model (gasser) PU trucks do not meet or come under current N0x standards! Why do you think there is ZERO testing on this & other segment/s ?

I am merely asking the question: does one honestly believe that VW is the ONLY one? If one does, one is being stunningly naïve. The other truth is probably more like: lots to hid.

So why doesn't EPA/CARB pay that SAME West Virginia testing small business to test gassers using the SAME protocols ( in various segments) used to test those 3 diesels???? That place has literally fall off the face of the earth, on the lemmingistic journalistic brouhaha.

Anything less is framing!

xwesx

ruking1 said:

My prediction: it will become overwhelmingly apparent NON compliance is the RULE, not the exception, on the 97 % to 95% gasser side!

I've said it before: It seems that the "testing" is going where it hasn't gone before, and outside of the parameters to which the Mgfrs were required to comply. Namely, lab testing is just that: Lab testing. If the regulations require lab testing compliance, then real world numbers are irrelevant. Unless the vehicle was rigged to cheat the test, then whether or not that same vehicle "exceeds standards" on the road doesn't matter from a compliance standpoint.

So, the regulatory agencies have to figure out what they want, but they need to recognize that changing the rules after-the-fact doesn't mean vehicles built to comply with the original rules are now suddenly out of compliance with those rules.

gagrice

stever said:

All just to clean up the air a bit. Imagine the hubris....

I think this may be the dealer my sister got her Y2K Bug from. Haven't heard if she got the letter.

Volkswagen dealer sends apology to diesel owners (cardealermagazine.co.uk

And according to the UN IPCC, automobiles are less than 15% of the problem. Union of Concerned Scientists back this up.

In total, the U.S. transportation sector—which includes planes, trains, ships, and freight—produces around thirty percent of all U.S. global warming emissions. That’s an order of magnitude more than most countries.

ruking1

xwesx said:

ruking1 said:

My prediction: it will become overwhelmingly apparent NON compliance is the RULE, not the exception, on the 97 % to 95% gasser side!

I've said it before: It seems that the "testing" is going where it hasn't gone before, and outside of the parameters to which the Mgfrs were required to comply. Namely, lab testing is just that: Lab testing. If the regulations require lab testing compliance, then real world numbers are irrelevant. Unless the vehicle was rigged to cheat the test, then whether or not that same vehicle "exceeds standards" on the road doesn't matter from a compliance standpoint.

So, the regulatory agencies have to figure out what they want, but they need to recognize that changing the rules after-the-fact doesn't mean vehicles built to comply with the original rules are now suddenly out of compliance with those rules.

Witch hunt.

I would totally agree! BUT, I hope one is not missing the point that those three tests were/are the whole basis for the accusations against VW! ? The nuances of which you speak are being totally ignored!

So yes witch hunt!

stever

15% is a good sized number.

I wouldn't sneer at a 15% raise.

carboy21

xwesx said:

ruking1 said:

My prediction: it will become overwhelmingly apparent NON compliance is the RULE, not the exception, on the 97 % to 95% gasser side!

I've said it before: It seems that the "testing" is going where it hasn't gone before, and outside of the parameters to which the Mgfrs were required to comply. Namely, lab testing is just that: Lab testing. If the regulations require lab testing compliance, then real world numbers are irrelevant. Unless the vehicle was rigged to cheat the test, then whether or not that same vehicle "exceeds standards" on the road doesn't matter from a compliance standpoint.

So, the regulatory agencies have to figure out what they want, but they need to recognize that changing the rules after-the-fact doesn't mean vehicles built to comply with the original rules are now suddenly out of compliance with those rules.

Witch hunt.

Shifting the goal posts at the behest of the EV/ Hybrid/ Obama .gov

texases

I would totally agree! BUT, I hope one is not missing the point that those three tests were/are the whole basis for the accusations against VW! ? The nuances of which you speak are being totally ignored!

So yes witch hunt!

"total basis"? nonsense, it's been found, and admitted far and wide. There is no reasonable question that VW had 'cheat code' in place, tested multiple times.

xwesx

texases said:

"total basis"? nonsense, it's been found, and admitted far and wide. There is no reasonable question that VW had 'cheat code' in place, tested multiple times.

No, this isn't discussion of the 2.0 scandal. We're talking now about the current topics of the VW group's other diesel offerings and, by extension, accusations out there surrounding those by other manufacturers as well.

The accusations are being based on "real world" vs. "lab testing," when it is generally demonstrated that real world can and will vary from the lab. Again, what I'm saying here is that unless there is equipment/software onboard that is specifically designed to cheat the lab testing (e.g., the car wouldn't even pass lab testing without modified conditions), then there is no regulatory issue (except, perhaps, with the test itself).

ruking1

texases said:

I would totally agree! BUT, I hope one is not missing the point that those three tests were/are the whole basis for the accusations against VW! ? The nuances of which you speak are being totally ignored!

So yes witch hunt!

"total basis"? nonsense, it's been found, and admitted far and wide. There is no reasonable question that VW had 'cheat code' in place, tested multiple times.

You are already glossing over the points! , ZERO testing on the gasser side!! I've already cited one example of current model pick up trucks in NON compliance of N0x regulations!! The you lie ( VW ) and we swear to it (EPA/CARB) scenarios was/were established from the git go! Get out of being stuck in the repeat groove!

So, are you were saying that you feel that VW is the only one ? I can be wrong, but I don't perceive you as being that naïve !

texases

In that case I agree. EPA/CARB contends there's 'cheat code' in the 3.0 TDI, too, VW denies it. We'll see. I bet all cars don't meet the test specs at all times on the road. The major difference with VW is the 'cheat code' issue. No cheat code = no issue, to me.

ruking1

texases said:

In that case I agree. EPA/CARB contends there's 'cheat code' in the 3.0 TDI, too, VW denies it. We'll see. I bet all cars don't meet the test specs at all times on the road. The major difference with VW is the 'cheat code' issue. No cheat code = no issue, to me.

EPA/CARB already have said that the people with the affected vehicles can continue SAFELY driving. Cars are safe, etc,. Indeed the Federal law/s does not FORCE a recall! Game, set, match on the consumer side. Harm to the consumer is the real and underlying issue. Yes, I would entertain $37,500 for my 2009 VW Jetta TDI. So called cheating fees/fines are between EPA/CARB & VW. Putting a consumers car in operations jeopardy, is a taking.

There is a suit in federal court in CA , where a plaintiff is pursuing the vehicle replacement remedy, due to a loophold in CA states' emissions laws. IF it is successful, I would want another diesel IF applicable to CA states app applicable 70,000 diesels!!! See I am not hard to please.

stever

We need a scorecard.

1. The big bombshell was when the EPA told VW that they couldn't certify some 2016 diesel cars without more info. That's when VW admitted to their cheat code over NOx emissions. That's the ~450,000 US cars, 11 million worldwide.
   
   
2. Then the EPA said VW cheated a second time, also over NOx. VW denied this. This dispute is over ~10,000 US cars.
   
   
3. The third involves ~800,000 cars just in Europe over CO2 - VW's "own investigations have uncovered "irregularities" in a completely different part of the testing and approval process." (BBC)
   

I don't see how you can call the first bombshell any sort of witch hunt. Other manufacturers met new emission regs - VW decided to cheat and admitted it after the EPA asked for more info. The admission takes it out of the realm of accusation.

The second cheat allegation has been denied so we'll have to wait and see how that shakes out.

The third problem is up in the air too because VW hasn't disclosed any details about the "unexplained inconsistencies". (eetimes.com)

Some of this is from memory so corrections are welcome.

ruking1

Easy!

Nobody calls for the elimination of gasoline when OEM's are caught cheating on gasoline emissions specifications.!!! Need another? EPA/CARB changed the EPA tests making it defacto favorable to gas hybrids when the 2004 Prius could not even come close to their EPA 60 c/50 h mph (@ 43/44 mpg) ! Was there a call to suspend all Toyota gasser vehicles, so the Prius issue could be resolved? Dah! So did Toyota lie? Dah!? CARB doubled down and not only continued the blather, but issued car pool exemptions !

So yes, complete & total witch hunt!

This has long ago turned into the Laurel and Hardy's "who's on first " routine!

texases

" Nobody calls for the elimination of gasoline when OEM's are caught cheating on gasoline emissions specifications.!!! "

Who? What? When? Where?

gagrice

I think it is clear as several have stated. The whole Diesel witch hunt was started by ICCT. Their reason for being is to promote EV and Hybrid transportation. With John German leading the charge. They started by picking the low fruit which was the slightly high NOx from VW TDIs. Be assured they are going after all emissions in their quest for Zero emissions from cars. According to the BBC article there is a lot of cheating when it comes to CO2 in the real World. EVs don't sell well because the high cost of components, so make ICE vehicles more expensive to level the playing field. Twofold benefit, you get rid of the low priced cars and the drivers that cannot afford a $50k compliant vehicle.

John German says:

He said while VW is in the spotlight, the entire auto industry needs to look at emissions in general. "There's an increasing gap between CO2 measured on test procedures (across the industry) and that reported by people in the real world."
"Manufacturers are exploiting flexibility, tolerances and loopholes in the regulations to be able to show lower emissions on the official test cycles, but they aren't necessarily being implemented in the real world."

http://www.theicct.org/

houdini1

carboy21 said:

xwesx said:

ruking1 said:

My prediction: it will become overwhelmingly apparent NON compliance is the RULE, not the exception, on the 97 % to 95% gasser side!

I've said it before: It seems that the "testing" is going where it hasn't gone before, and outside of the parameters to which the Mgfrs were required to comply. Namely, lab testing is just that: Lab testing. If the regulations require lab testing compliance, then real world numbers are irrelevant. Unless the vehicle was rigged to cheat the test, then whether or not that same vehicle "exceeds standards" on the road doesn't matter from a compliance standpoint.

So, the regulatory agencies have to figure out what they want, but they need to recognize that changing the rules after-the-fact doesn't mean vehicles built to comply with the original rules are now suddenly out of compliance with those rules.

Witch hunt.

Shifting the goal posts at the behest of the EV/ Hybrid/ Obama .gov

Not saying I agree, but I can certainly see the logic. The cars were built to pass the EPA lab testing. They passed the test. Now EPA is calling it cheating, but VW could say no, we simply built the cars to pass the lab tests, as that was the benchmark. If they wanted the cars to pass real world tests, then this should have been stipulated. So VW has not "confessed" to cheating, they only confessed to building the cars to pass the lab tests.

It seems like the only testing the EPA has ever done is in the lab. Safety tests, mpg tests, clean air tests, etc. and it is common knowledge that these lab tests results are all usually different than what happens in the real world. Now suddenly, and after the fact, they want VW diesels ONLY the pass real world tests. Something about this has a bad smell, and I don't mean diesel fumes.

If the EPA wants to make a change to real world testing then do so NOW...but don't attempt to backdate the effective date by several years, now that they know their tests are faulty and useless. A good case could be made that the EPA is in a panic because their faulty tests have been exposed and they are using the time honored tactic of pointing the finger at someone else to cover for their own incompetence. I can see where a good attorney could have a field day with this.

ruking1

houdini1 said:

carboy21 said:

xwesx said:

ruking1 said:

My prediction: it will become overwhelmingly apparent NON compliance is the RULE, not the exception, on the 97 % to 95% gasser side!

I've said it before: It seems that the "testing" is going where it hasn't gone before, and outside of the parameters to which the Mgfrs were required to comply. Namely, lab testing is just that: Lab testing. If the regulations require lab testing compliance, then real world numbers are irrelevant. Unless the vehicle was rigged to cheat the test, then whether or not that same vehicle "exceeds standards" on the road doesn't matter from a compliance standpoint.

So, the regulatory agencies have to figure out what they want, but they need to recognize that changing the rules after-the-fact doesn't mean vehicles built to comply with the original rules are now suddenly out of compliance with those rules.

Witch hunt.

Shifting the goal posts at the behest of the EV/ Hybrid/ Obama .gov

Not saying I agree, but I can certainly see the logic. The cars were built to pass the EPA lab testing. They passed the test. Now EPA is calling it cheating, but VW could say no, we simply built the cars to pass the lab tests, as that was the benchmark. If they wanted the cars to pass real world tests, then this should have been stipulated. So VW has not "confessed" to cheating, they only confessed to building the cars to pass the lab tests.

It seems like the only testing the EPA has ever done is in the lab. Safety tests, mpg tests, clean air tests, etc. and it is common knowledge that these lab tests results are all usually different than what happens in the real world. Now suddenly, and after the fact, they want VW diesels ONLY the pass real world tests. Something about this has a bad smell, and I don't mean diesel fumes.

If the EPA wants to make a change to real world testing then do so NOW...but don't attempt to backdate the effective date by several years, now that they know their tests are faulty and useless. A good case could be made that the EPA is in a panic because their faulty tests have been exposed and they are using the time honored tactic of pointing the finger at someone else to cover for their own incompetence. I can see where a good attorney could have a field day with this.

Yup! X 3 paras to all logic points! The best thing for EPA/CARB to do is to exempt the app 485,000 US diesel cars. In effect, the EPA has already done that with the no forced recall principle. IF they bring it to court, from what I can see, they stand a good chance of losing. The real damage will be the exposure of how incompetent and politically weaponized the agency's are.

Between what you have concluded and what Gagrice is saying /quoted, those are the real battlegrounds. The truth is there are vast sums of monies to be made and lost! I've actually made more off the more "shadow" stocks EV/ hybrid/ battery/ etc., stocks than from the dramatic drops off diesel OEM's stocks!

Again, until VW admits IN &/ or is convicted IN court, I will continue to say allegedly or say innocent till proven guilty in a court of law!