What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah but then you have to live in Georgia. Bugs, humidity, hay fever, no booze on Sundays.

ruking1

Come to think of it, I'm ok with CA drought! It is however, raining/ snowing in Tahoe, @ 36 degrees, no stick! Well @ least a salt less undercarriage wash, starting @ Placerville/ Sacramento!

stever

ruking1 said:

I thought you all would get a kick out of this: in GA, Valero ULSD @ $ 1.98, RUG @ $ 2.05.

So for 50 mpg/3.96 cents, 40mpg/4.95 cents, 35mpg/5.66 cents!

It's $1.99 here for regular (up a dime), even cheaper if you have a Sam's card. Diesel is $2.18. I'd make some cracks about snakes in Georgia, but just found this guy in my garage. Kind of wondered why I hadn't seen any kangaroo rats for a while.

houdini1

stever said:

ruking1 said:

I thought you all would get a kick out of this: in GA, Valero ULSD @ $ 1.98, RUG @ $ 2.05.

So for 50 mpg/3.96 cents, 40mpg/4.95 cents, 35mpg/5.66 cents!

It's $1.99 here for regular (up a dime), even cheaper if you have a Sam's card. Diesel is $2.18. I'd make some cracks about snakes in Georgia, but just found this guy in my garage. Kind of wondered why I hadn't seen any kangaroo rats for a while.

Whoa! I would have my house on the market tomorrow !! Is that a rattler?

stever

Hey, snakes are people too. (I didn't count 'em but you can see ~6 rattles in the pic over the guy's head. Not sure if it's a guy either, lol).

stever

"The EPA has certified the diesel-powered versions of the Chevrolet Colorado and GMC Canyon at 31 mpg highway -- the highest rating of any truck, big or small, gasoline or diesel -- sold in the U.S.

The two midsize GM pickups edge past the Ram EcoDiesel, which is EPA-rated at 29 mpg on the highway.

In a statement today, GM said that the EPA issued not only the fuel economy ratings but a certificate of conformity stating the agency has no issues or concerns about the emissions systems in both trucks."

Chevy Colorado, GMC Canyon diesels first pickups to top 30 mpg on highway (autonews.com)

ruking1

While I have no desire to get four-wheel-drive mid sized pick up truck, I am curious to see how & what mpg that would do in the SOS/DD trek !

15 Toyota Tacoma is listed at 18 mpg on Fuelly.com.

Only about 6.6% of TDI owners feel wronged by the scandal!
http://www.clubtouareg.com/forums/f89/poll-how-much-do-you-care-about-the-emissions-scandal-221754.html

ruking1

..."It is noted that only three vehicles were tested as part of this measurement campaign with each vehicle being a different after-treatment technology or vehicle manufacturer; conclusions drawn from the data presented herein are confined to these three vehicles. The limited data set does not necessarily permit drawing more generalized conclusions for a specific vehicle category or after-treatment technology."...

The above quote is really the reason why I have said & will continue to say, VW is innocent till proven guilty in a US court of law!

Here is the original report.

http://www.theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/WVU_LDDV_in-use_ICCT_Report_Final_may2014.pdf

So for example, to make it a good comparison, select three competitors gasser vehicles and run correlation studies between the 3 each diesels & gas engines.

texases

Several other tests got the same result. Case closed. 

benjaminh

ruking1 said:

For US VW consumers, HAPPY SALE DAYS ( in a sad kind of way!) $ 10,000 discount on a $25,000 vehicle! ? WOW! One almost can't afford to buy a used Honda!

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/volkswagen-buy-back-customers-10-114708980.html

Those kinds of offers approaches EPIC!

One almost have to be an extreme chicken Little or SEVERELY math challenged, to not even consider these cars, if one is in the market ! I'm not, but I'm getting totally motivated !

If they are losing several thousand dollars on every vehicle they sell in the US, at some point it might become unsustainable. To save face, VW might be willing to lose a couple of billion dollars a year in the US until, say, 2018, but if by then they are still hemorrhaging money you might wonder if they would just pull the plug....

ruking1

texases said:

Several other tests got the same result. Case closed. 

Short memories here? EPA/CARB have gone on record saying @ the most checking app 15%. They didn't even find the diesel issue. So, it has not been done. If it was done, post up! Open & suspect till then.

texases

Consumer reports, for one. There are others. Why do you doubt it?  All facts are against you, including VW's immediate, repeated, and abject admission of guilt. Why the doubt?

ruking1

The why was quoted & posted! The testing agency is saying what I have said exactly! In fact THEY said it before I even heard of them ! I said it after reading a synopsis- ES of their ES study. What is so hard for you to understand about testing 3 gassers by same agency IAW exact same protocols & why, and compare & contrast?

texases

Just to be clear - you think there is no "cheat code"?

If you believe there was no "cheat code", why would VW voluntarily squander billions of dollars by falsely admitting there was one?

ruking1

texases said:

Just to be clear - you think there is no "cheat code"?

If you believe there was no "cheat code", why would VW voluntarily squander billions of dollars by falsely admitting there was one?

I have been absolutely clear, over multiple posts !

Moving into smaller TDI PU trucks: Chevrolet Colorado/ GMC Canyon @ 180hp/369 # ft! T ! It will be interesting to see what will be the TDI take rate, % ! It will also be interesting the mpg they will post. The combined is stated@ 25/23 mpg.

The gas 15 Toyota Tacoma posts 18 mpg. TDI's are a minimum of 39% to 28 % better.

http://www.hybridcars.com/chevrolet-colorado-diesel-is-most-fuel-efficient-pickup-in-america/

texases

I wouldn't be asking if you had been clear. I guess your answer is "Yes, no cheat code, and VW is squandering billions of dollars rather than fight the EPA/CARB/EU because is doesn't think it could win."

Is that correct? Just want to be clear.

stever

Read the fine print. Apparently there's an arbitration clause in the $1,000 goodwill package VW is offering that may limit other recover in the myriad class action suits out there.

"The automaker says customers don’t have to give up their right to sue the company – as thousands already are – but some attorneys are disputing that and warning customers not to sign an arbitration clause required to get the money.

VW said the arbitration clause, buried in clause 11 of its lengthy “Goodwill Package Cardholder Agreements” – is part of the bank terms for the gift cards and is not designed to fool consumers into waiving their legal claims against Volkswagen.

But Williams-Derry cautioned that “the clause is worded extremely broadly, and the courts have history unfortunately of interpreting these clauses expansively.”

Does VW 'goodwill' payment clause prevent owners from suing? (LA Times)

texases

I'm not surprised that the cash card agreement has some legal language in it about arbitration regarding the cash card. I doubt it's binding regarding the car. But I'm no lawyer. If it was me, I'd hold off signing ANYTHING until it was clear what the entire compensation/fix/recall situation was. There's no rush, this package is available until April.

stever

What if the funding for the cash card goes away before the end of April?

stever

"This is not just down to "anti-diesel sentiment", says Al Bedwell, director, global powertrains at LMC Automotive. "It has more to do with petrol getting better and staging a fight-back, especially in small cars in Western Europe."

Turbo gives petrol cars a boost as diesel faces backlash (BBC)

Three-cylinder Kia anyone? Hey, it worked for MINI.

ruking1

stever said:

Read the fine print. Apparently there's an arbitration clause in the $1,000 goodwill package VW is offering that may limit other recover in the myriad class action suits out there.

"The automaker says customers don’t have to give up their right to sue the company – as thousands already are – but some attorneys are disputing that and warning customers not to sign an arbitration clause required to get the money.

VW said the arbitration clause, buried in clause 11 of its lengthy “Goodwill Package Cardholder Agreements” – is part of the bank terms for the gift cards and is not designed to fool consumers into waiving their legal claims against Volkswagen.

But Williams-Derry cautioned that “the clause is worded extremely broadly, and the courts have history unfortunately of interpreting these clauses expansively.”

Does VW 'goodwill' payment clause prevent owners from suing? (LA Times)

Almost none of the 7/8 letters I have received from attorneys, using marketing lists state clearly what they /you are likely to get, let alone what they are aiming for. It would seem they are advertising for the IMPLIED "pipe" dream! They also don't make a strong point of the rights (you are/I am) being given up! If they were, the obvious thing to do: sign up for all of them & take the best offer.

ruking1

benjaminh said:

ruking1 said:

For US VW consumers, HAPPY SALE DAYS ( in a sad kind of way!) $ 10,000 discount on a $25,000 vehicle! ? WOW! One almost can't afford to buy a used Honda!

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/volkswagen-buy-back-customers-10-114708980.html

Those kinds of offers approaches EPIC!

One almost have to be an extreme chicken Little or SEVERELY math challenged, to not even consider these cars, if one is in the market ! I'm not, but I'm getting totally motivated !

If they are losing several thousand dollars on every vehicle they sell in the US, at some point it might become unsustainable. To save face, VW might be willing to lose a couple of billion dollars a year in the US until, say, 2018, but if by then they are still hemorrhaging money you might wonder if they would just pull the plug....

On the face of it, that would appear to be true.

I think the:

1. US production #'s (2015 US projected years sales@ 17.5 M)
2. 2.5% (US market )s = 437,500 units
3. TDI #'s @ = 100,625 units
4. TDI %'s @ 23%

might delineate the real 2015/ 2016 my battlegrounds.

So in the worst case, sans the TDI products, they need to sell 100,625 more gas units to defend their 2.5% US market position in 2016. They obviously think the $4,000 + they spend in advertising the product lines and a $2,00 customer loyalty & zero to low April should bring back a lot of that.

So if diesels are recertified later for the 2016 model year, I think there will be more, but muted interest in diesels at that time. In effect the late addition of TDI's could be favorable.

Best case, they GAIN market share & units. They take a hit on TDI units & %'s. Worse case, they take a small haircut on US market %. i.e., 2.5% or less.

VW has also lost billions of dollars already .

Mr_Shiftright

I think when the guilty party admits it already, you don't really need a court of law.

As for reactions of TDI owners, I'm surprised. I polled my 3 friends who have them, and all three are pretty POed about it---mostly the spectre of poor resale value and being lied to. I wonder how those people who "don't care" would feel come trade-in time?

One friend told me that every time he went to the VW dealer for service, they would always ask him if he wanted to trade his in (2011 Jetta TDI wagon), and that they'd give me "over book value" as this was a very high demand used car.

But on this last visit, nobody asked him. He said if VW bought him out, he'd take it. He likes the car, though.

ruking1 said:

..."It is noted that only three vehicles were tested as part of this measurement campaign with each vehicle being a different after-treatment technology or vehicle manufacturer; conclusions drawn from the data presented herein are confined to these three vehicles. The limited data set does not necessarily permit drawing more generalized conclusions for a specific vehicle category or after-treatment technology."...

The above quote is really the reason why I have said & will continue to say, VW is innocent till proven guilty in a US court of law!

Here is the original report.

http://www.theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/WVU_LDDV_in-use_ICCT_Report_Final_may2014.pdf

So for example, to make it a good comparison, select three competitors gasser vehicles and run correlation studies between the 3 each diesels & gas engines.

ruking1

Well yes, what's happening now are de facto plea deals ! They are trying to get away with as little outlays as possible.

I'm pretty PO'd 2, that I lost out on the 150 point drop! That was a farm bet if there ever was one! Still I was able to catch more than one 6 point drops!

So if they buy me out, I posted the figures: cost per mile driven: depreciation. But if I keep it, I won't know for easily six more years, what those resale figures would be. Be that as it may 6 years should post 90,000 miles+, for a minimum of 180,000 miles. I would post higher costs per mile driven, so selling 6 years sooner is actually BETTER! So yes, I will AGAIN run the numbers, as it gets closer to reality. From what I am reading, that's closer to 2018, even though they say it should started 2016.

But I think this stuff is not peculiar to diesels. I had two real sick GASSER dogs that have been acknowledged for years to be really stellar name plates: the reliable and durable 1978 Honda Accord, 1985 Toyota Camry. Honda stepped up for ZIP. Toyota did not cover the manufacturing defect, but replaced a load of parts known to them to be pure crap, as GW. Did that stop me from buying subsequent Hondas and Toyotas? ...NO!

texases

stever said:

"This is not just down to "anti-diesel sentiment", says Al Bedwell, director, global powertrains at LMC Automotive. "It has more to do with petrol getting better and staging a fight-back, especially in small cars in Western Europe."

Turbo gives petrol cars a boost as diesel faces backlash (BBC)

Three-cylinder Kia anyone? Hey, it worked for MINI.

This is especially true for VW - their new 1.8l gas turbo engine does quite well, mpg - wise, reducing the incentive to get a TDI, especially now that they'll be getting their EPA ratings (maybe lower), plus DEF requirements, plus added up front cost.

fintail

A friend of mine here has a new Golf with a 1.4 gas. It apparently has cylinder deactivation, and he claims it gets about 5l/100km on the highway. I am not sure why he chose it over a diesel, but he seems happy. A Golf here is like a Camcord in the US, a normal family car.

stever

Hear much scuttlebutt on the street there about the VW mess?

fintail

It's all over the news, yes. But people don't seem upset. My friend said it is "political". I don't think it will impact sales here. VW is THE mainstream brand and for some there's a VW vs everyone thing like Ford vs Chevy etc.

ruking1

fintail said:

A friend of mine here has a new Golf with a 1.4 gas. It apparently has cylinder deactivation, and he claims it gets about 5l/100km on the highway. I am not sure why he chose it over a diesel, but he seems happy. A Golf here is like a Camcord in the US, a normal family car.

Not a thing wrong with 47 mpg 1.4 L, turbo gasser! The issue is that they will not hit US markets here. If they did, they would not sell! As a minimum, a similar sized TDI would post better mpg & better torque #'s !

stever

Good point, wrong market. Maybe would sell some in the big cities.

Mr_Shiftright

the diesel market is so strong in Europe I also doubt it will have much effect. But in the USA, VW really counts on diesel sales as a fair percentage of its overall sales, so it's gotta hurt here.

texases

A bigger impact in Europe will be the elimination of the tax difference on diesel vs. gas, which I understand to be (slowly) moving ahead. In today's CO2-phobic world, it would seem to make sense to tax each in proportion to the CO2 released per gallon.

ruking1

stever said:

Good point, wrong market. Maybe would sell some in the big cities.

The scale between destinations Europe/US can be far different! It is actually reflected in avg yearly miles of 9,000 miles vs 12,000 to 15,000 miles.

Also a lot of American drivers are still wedded to gas hp ?

So for example, my dinky hp 90hp/155 # ft of torque diesel is easy to scoff @. It can however click along @ 90 mph, 48 mpg for 650 + plus miles (14.5 gal tank) Any number of times, I have kept it to 75 mph & easily post 59 mpg. So the range would be more like 826 miles+ plus.

texases

Per fueleconomy.gov, a diesel Golf would save all of $100 per year compared to a 1.8 l gasser (both AT, 15k miles/year).

Mr_Shiftright

You wouldn't save too much more than that in Europe either. Right now diesel is E1.11/L and gas is E 1.264/L

ruking1

I have ANY # of times run the numbers and almost 100% of the time, diesel beats (like model) gassers ! One can rant on making the false claim ( like model) gassers have caught up to or exceeded diesel. They normall leave out the numbers comparisons for obvious reasons: the numbers disprove the normally false claims.

So it's crystal clear to me "mpg per se" is really not a prime motivator to get people to switch ! I know beyond a shadow of a doubt, for example using the MB GLK250 BT/350, the gasser is the much greater %. To boot the BT is 500 cheaper! @ 22 mpg vs my anecdotal 35 to 37mpg!

texases

Diesel wins by $100/year is what I said. Not a big number.

ruking1

texases said:

Diesel wins by $100/year is what I said. Not a big number.

Fuelly, real world yields far bigger $ #'s !

2003 VW Jetta 1.8 T (24.5 mph) vs 1.9 TDI (my anecdotal 50 mpg) is HUGE! PUG@$2.59, ULSD@$2.38. One can use 15,000 per year, or my 180,000 plus miles. = $10,461 MORE @ current prices. Even if you think $872. per year= chump change, @$2.38, it buys 366 gal of ULSD! @ 50 mpg that 18,300 commute miles. for us, that is 1.22 years of commuting. So if I sold that right now, it would cost roughly 6 cents per mile driven: depreciation.

More TMI

IF I can get 4.8 cents per mile driven, for the 2009 VW Jetta TDI due to the VW fiasco,.... it's awfully tempting ! I would want to get another diesel!? EPA mpg is app 3 mpg better! The goofy variable would be the 7/8 speed A/T! I think a 7, 8, 9, 10 speed DSG is probably way more complicated . But then it seems like US, Japanese OEM's are having a rough go of it? Jury is still out on the CVT.

https://www.yahoo.com/autos/s/high-tech-transmissions-shifting-into-higher-rates-172012389.html

That's probably one reason why one never run the numbers! It is hard to keep up the fairytale that way!

texases

2003 1.8T is not the same as a 2015 1.8T. And diesel is not cheaper, outside CA. $0.30/gallon more here, and per fueleconomy.gov.
The 2003 1.8T gasser Jetta gets 22 mpg, the 2015 1.8T gasser Jetta gets 30 mpg, the 2015 diesel 36 mpg.
In reported mpgs the they're 24/37/40 mpgs. Again, little $$ ($50/year for the 2015 diesel over gasser).

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=19317&id=35621&id=35433

ruking1

texases said:

2003 1.8T is not the same as a 2015 1.8T. And diesel is not cheaper, outside CA. $0.30/gallon more here, and per fueleconomy.gov.
The 2003 1.8T gasser Jetta gets 22 mpg, the 2015 1.8T gasser Jetta gets 30 mpg, the 2015 diesel 36 mpg.
In reported mpgs the they're 24/37/40 mpgs. Again, little $$ ($50/year for the 2015 diesel over gasser).

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=19317&id=35621&id=35433

Nor did I say it was the same now did I?

You must have ignored the Georgia ULSD pricesI posted @ $1.98 ? !

Not a thing wrong with 26.8 miles per gallon for the 15 1.8 L T !

But I bet you're about to tell me that 15 2.0L TDI's 42.5 mpg is worse ! Lol!

TDI is actually STILL better@ 58.5%.

gagrice

Ruking, Have you gotten your VW free gift?

The $500 gift card can be used anywhere, while the $500 voucher can be used in dealerships around the country. The incentive also added in free roadside assistance for the next three years.
Owners of the vehicles can easily get the gift card and voucher. The company says they don’t have to sign anything when they ask for them. A spokeswoman for the company said there are no strings attached.

http://gazettereview.com/2015/11/emission-scandal-volkswagen-ag-adr-otcmktsvlkay-is-now-offering-1000-in-gift-cards-and-vouchers/

gagrice

Anyone think VW has trouble here from Rolls Royce.

Recalls come in all sizes, some numbering in the hundreds and some in the millions. Given the small volume that Rolls-Royce sells, we wouldn't expect a recall of any of its vehicles to be all that large in scope. But this one is as small as it gets.

In the latest campaign announced by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, the BMW Group (owner of Rolls) is calling in one – yes, just one – example of the Rolls-Royce Ghost. It's a 2015 model manufactured on Jan. 23, 2014, and includes some potentially problematic airbags.

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/11/10/rolls-royce-one-ghost-recall/

Mr_Shiftright

I doubt most people would AVERAGE 50 mpg over the course of 180,000 miles. Besides, in most of the USA, diesel costs more than regular gasoline. I did a random check of 15 states scattered around the country, and all of them show diesel at least .20 cents higher, or more.

So if we drop the average down to 44 mpg vs 25 mpg, over 15000 miles we get a savings of $474 a year, diesel over gas. (based on Golf TDI owners reporting to True Delta, based on $2.09 RUG vs. $2.29 ULSD)

If we factor in the initial cost of the diesel engine over the same year same car gasoline engine, (2015 Golf, gas vs TDI) it would take about 9 years to recoup just that extra $4000. So that break-even would take 135,000 miles, leaving you with 45,000 miles of "pure gravy", or about a $1400 advantage over a gas engine equivalent over the course of 180,000 miles, or roughly $116 a year savings.

Fuel economy alone is not a powerful enough argument for marketing diesels, it seems to me.

Mr_Shiftright

I would hope that for $320,000 +, the numbers would be small!

gagrice said:

Anyone think VW has trouble here from Rolls Royce.

Recalls come in all sizes, some numbering in the hundreds and some in the millions. Given the small volume that Rolls-Royce sells, we wouldn't expect a recall of any of its vehicles to be all that large in scope. But this one is as small as it gets.

In the latest campaign announced by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, the BMW Group (owner of Rolls) is calling in one – yes, just one – example of the Rolls-Royce Ghost. It's a 2015 model manufactured on Jan. 23, 2014, and includes some potentially problematic airbags.

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/11/10/rolls-royce-one-ghost-recall/

carboy21

Why would you need airbags in a Rolls Royce . No one drives them over 25 mph  

Mr_Shiftright

You Saw It Here First

ruking1

Mr_Shiftright said:

I doubt most people would AVERAGE 50 mpg over the course of 180,000 miles. Besides, in most of the USA, diesel costs more than regular gasoline. I did a random check of 15 states scattered around the country, and all of them show diesel at least .20 cents higher, or more.

So if we drop the average down to 44 mpg vs 25 mpg, over 15000 miles we get a savings of $474 a year, diesel over gas. (based on Golf TDI owners reporting to True Delta, based on $2.09 RUG vs. $2.29 ULSD)

If we factor in the initial cost of the diesel engine over the same year same car gasoline engine, (2015 Golf, gas vs TDI) it would take about 9 years to recoup just that extra $4000. So that break-even would take 135,000 miles, leaving you with 45,000 miles of "pure gravy", or about a $1400 advantage over a gas engine equivalent over the course of 180,000 miles, or roughly $116 a year savings.

Fuel economy alone is not a powerful enough argument for marketing diesels, it seems to me.

Neither has EVER been a guarantee! To try to represent that as me claiming those are guarantees/ those/your claims were and remains absolutely false!

I have boringly & consistently said: do the math in the formula! ( price per gal- (which has been & remains variable) / mpg ( which has been & remains variable) = cpmd: FUEL)

But even in your 44 mpg vs 25 mpg is still 19 mpg BETTER! Aka 76%. IF you don't like that? THEN don't do it!!

I hear the same about the ( my gasser) 2004 Honda Civic 38 mpg (38 mpg to 42 mpg) ! However, again as good as that is, it is not nearly as good as the diesels 50 mph (48 to 52 mph) nor as consistent. Even in my case, diesel is 32% better! I do know how to drive each one under my environs to get good mpgs ! The Civic's mpg also started to fall off @ app 160,000 miles. I do have to drive my gassers much more carefully to get consistently good results, so defacto & in effect, I "cheat" driving the GASSER! Of course I have said this from time to time, so this is neither a secret or new. But as you can see "cheating " with the gasser does not come close to the diesel driven HARDER!

I am glad that you finally agree with me that much better mpg & much lower costs go right by most gasser owners heads !

If you go back to some of my posts, I use the MB's 22 mpg versus 35 mpg (like model) and it's app $ 10,000 fuel !!! So if one doesnt care or wants to spend more monies, why should I ? After all, it's ones (your) moneies!!

Cutting off the choices are the major issues & what I take umbrage with!

The same is true for even a low price diesel I.e., 2009 VW Jetta TDI cpmd: depreciation ! How many bought new gassers have potential for 4.8 cents per mile driven depreciation? Now I have 6 cents cpmd: depreciation to beat on the 2003 VW JettaTDI!

So while I respect ones, your, the opinion/s, the math does not support your position.

Having said that, it's overwhelmingly obvious ( by 95 to 97% gasser owners) more people agree with you ! What is so hard understand about that!

Let me repeat, if people want to spend more money for fuel (cpmd:) I'm fine with that ! you should be fine with me spending less !

houdini1

Ruking, I am not kidding when I say you would make a better White House press secretary than Josh Earnest !!

ruking1

What about what I have said is false?

stever

Is that a compliment or insult, @houdini1? You'll have to help me out here since I don't watch TV and see the interaction. When I think of press secretaries I think of obfuscation, dancing around the issue and diverting the question to some other topic by answering something that wasn't asked ....