What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

fintail

I saw diesel as low as 1.09 on the Austria/German border today (Europe doesn't have the huge price fluctuations that can exist in a city or county or state as the US).

X5 diesel impressions - it's a comfy cruiser. A bit intrusive at low speeds (my old MB bluetec was a lot quieter), but it smoothly hums along at 100mph as one would expect. I didn't take it any higher, too much traffic - and didn't keep track of mpg as suburban Stuttgart was a jam this morning and that would have an impact. It's a big heavy thing and kind of cumbersome in the city - but it'll beat 30mpg without a doubt. I once rented a 6cyl gas X5 - I was hard pressed to hit 20mpg when taking it easy.

Mr_Shiftright

There's not much there on that engine over 4000 rpm.

ruking1

Mr_Shiftright said:

There's not much there on that engine over 4000 rpm.

That may be totally true, as I don't have the specifications in front of me, but I think you really need to put it in context.

There have ALWAYS been DIFFERENCES in power availability between diesel and gas engines. One is setting ones self up for some to utter disappointment IF one expects diesels to run like gassers & vice versa!

A lot of auto journalists EXPECT exactly that! If one is going to be in auto journalism, at least understand how the engines/drive trains differ! A lot of our journalists write like they are comparing wines!?

So for example, @ between 2,000 -2,200 RPM : on both the 2014 MB GLK 250 BT, 2.0 L, 369# ft, 2012 VW Touareg TDI, 3.0 L, 406 # ft, one is @ maximum torque ( max torque comes on app sub 1,800 rpm) @ posting app 81 mph. This also happens to be where the drivetrains are optimized to cruise @

So on US Highway's, if one is @ 4,000 RPM, one is cruising for a bruising by the Highway Patrol. In LA LA land one would probably rate helicopter coverage & hit the evening news. Besides, MPG would fall off

gagrice

It will be real interesting to see if the GM Canyon/Colorado diesel can achieve the 31 MPG highway the EPA rates them at.

Mr_Shiftright

What I mean is its generally a waste of time to rev it that high.

stever

gagrice said:

It will be real interesting to see if the GM Canyon/Colorado diesel can achieve the 31 MPG highway the EPA rates them at.

Even more interesting to me is whether they hit their 100,000 sales target. Can't remember where I saw that 100k number now - seems a high target since GM says 250,000 new midsize trucks are sold each year. Maybe the number was 10k.

Mr_Shiftright

The truck is sure getting nice reviews.

ruking1

Mr_Shiftright said:

The truck is sure getting nice reviews.

One metric would be the (cheap crack cue lator) 12 years and 180,000 miles, not to beat a dead horse ! For anyone not liking this, use divisible factors, or $ 753 per year. Competitive mid sized PU trucks gassers are getting 18 mpg.

IF the diesel actually gets say 30 - 31 mph, that mikes out to 10,000 gal vs 6,000 to 5,806 gal. @ today's prices $2.38 RUG/$ 2.46 ULSD=. (23,800-14,760=9,040) . Imagine that, the diesel version should actually consume MINUS - 40% to 42% LESS fuel, which goes almost totally ignored! In the gallonage parlance, that BE HUGE! (My worst Trump imitation)
@ this point, I swag/suspect resale value for the diesel would be more.

ruking1

Wow! Minus - Bad but not bad @5.3% Not bad@ all given falling skies! I was thinking absolute worst case of 12/13%. Zzzzzzzzzzz
http://news.yahoo.com/scandal-hit-vw-says-car-sales-slump-5-142236243.html

ruking1

An interesting take on a gasser Subaru (one of the best made in/for US markets) with only 150,000 miles ?
http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/business/2015/11/14/after-150000-miles-suv-is-saying-its-tired.html

Mr_Shiftright

Lots of diesels cash it in at that mileage, too. About 175K--225K is the statistical life expectancy of a modern car. Naturally you will have perhaps 5% outliers exploding early or lasting to 300K, but in the real world this is about it, 225K and you're done.

texases

Many older (pre-2011) Subarus are not long-lived, unless you're willing to put in new head gaskets. No surprise that somebody's wanting out at 150k. Me, I'd sell them both (Jeep could be a money pit, too) and put all the proceeds plus a few thou into a much newer car.

carboy21

texases said:

Many older (pre-2011) Subarus are not long-lived, unless you're willing to put in new head gaskets. No surprise that somebody's wanting out at 150k. Me, I'd sell them both (Jeep could be a money pit, too) and put all the proceeds plus a few thou into a much newer car.

My thoughts too. Both are dead in water. Nothing to choose between the two, Sell both and buy newer one with the proceeds

ruking1

To remain on topic, advantage DIESELS! No head gasket issues!

To me, and the articles point, that highlights the importance of proper short & longer term vehicle "care".

Toyota Landcruisers (gassers in my case) are recognized throughout the world as very reliable & durable! However, for example, like clockwork, GASSERS started to have oil consumption issues, etc, etc . So after correction, on the remaining two, the gassers are soldiering on.
(yes that TLC Indy shop gave us an extreme discount for 2@ once),

I already know for a fact the TLC diesels do NOT have the same issues. Be that as it may, we are still on track for 30 years & a minimum of 300,000 miles.

But yeah, we are being spoiled by high mileage & higher mpg diesels !

Actually a similar thing is happening with VW diesel's versus gassers: TDI's being more durable & consuming WAY less oil!

Cars with diesel engines CAN have more durability in the engine & drive train. But surely, they share the rest of the parts with gassers. Ergo, they need care beyond the "appliance" mentality.

So for example, I treat my appliances: washer and dryer like..." appliances". However, they are 33 years old, if you know what I mean? Interesting comments came from the technician/s sent to repair the washer for a frayed drive belt.

ruking1

This Nissan TDI takes the place of two (GASSER) products: F150/250 ! ?
..."UPDATE: Mike Levine, a Ford Trucks spokesman, notes that the weight of the Titan actually makes it comparable to a Ford F-250, not an F-150, and that changes things a bit:"...

http://truckyeah.jalopnik.com/the-2016-nissan-titan-diesel-will-tow-more-than-12-000-1742328669

gagrice

texases said:

Many older (pre-2011) Subarus are not long-lived, unless you're willing to put in new head gaskets. No surprise that somebody's wanting out at 150k. Me, I'd sell them both (Jeep could be a money pit, too) and put all the proceeds plus a few thou into a much newer car.

My brand new 1973 Subaru blew head gaskets at 3000 miles. Covered by warranty if I wanted to wait 9 weeks for the dealer to get to it. The jerks would not give me the parts, so I bought them and did the work myself. Not a lot different than working on a VW Bug, which I had lots of experience with, building dune buggies. Overall it was a lousy car in snow or ice. That and the 78 Honda Accord turned me off on owning front wheel drive anything.

ruking1

Mr_Shiftright said:

Lots of diesels cash it in at that mileage, too. About 175K--225K is the statistical life expectancy of a modern car. Naturally you will have perhaps 5% outliers exploding early or lasting to 300K, but in the real world this is about it, 225K and you're done.

Some more data (400,000 sample) to add fuel to the fire. So we are using a yard stick of 2/3 or 67% of folks driving cars with over 100,000 miles of the PVF. @ 11.5 years old / 15,000 miles, avgs,180,000 miles is certainly in the ball park.
https://www.yahoo.com/autos/15-cars-owners-hold-onto-215318539/photo-1-honda-cr-v-1447452238197.html

I suspect the depreciation on a "( my) cheater " 2009 VW Jetta TDI will post 4.8 to 7.5 cents cpmd depreciation, after $ 1,000 GW, $ 1,200 tax credit @ high BB buy back @ $ 8,800,...... ah..... might be a GOOD time and cpmd to sell, rather tha keep it to 180,000 miles & beyond. I mean I like the car & all! Might find another "cheatin" diesel and start the process all over, I further suspect the 12 year-old Honda CRV , Toyota Camry will post between 12.5 and 12.8 cents per mile.

I suspect the 5% outliers, of which you/we speak (180,000 miles plus) is probably higher.!?

stever

Pretty good rehash of why we don't get more diesel cars here.

Automakers struggle to bring affordable diesel cars to US market (sentinelsource.com)

houdini1

stever said:

Pretty good rehash of why we don't get more diesel cars here.

Automakers struggle to bring affordable diesel cars to US market (sentinelsource.com)

My prediction is that if Mazda does finally develop a diesel engine that meets U.S. standards, the standards will suddenly change to become even more stringent.

ruking1

stever said:

Pretty good rehash of why we don't get more diesel cars here.

Automakers struggle to bring affordable diesel cars to US market (sentinelsource.com)

This is another indication why the end goal is to get rid of all of alternate fuel sources ! It is open war on diesel products! KILL DIESEL !

http://news.yahoo.com/manure-millions-hogs-fuels-natural-153430636.html

Biodiesel can be harvested @ pig slaughter facilites. Aka @ multiple points of the food chain.

Folks are shell shocked, eyes glaze over to hear me recite the facts: gasoline is used for 95% to 97% of the PVF ! passenger vehicle fleet. You would think there's absolutely no room for less than 100% gasoline !

What percentage of the PVF are natural gas? We literally almost overnight can become the worlds supplier of natural gas ! What percentage of the PVF are ethanol etc., etc. What percentage of the PVF are biodiesel? What percentage of the PVF are diesel? Diesel ranges from 3 % to 5%.

cdnpinhead

My prediction is that if Mazda does finally develop a diesel engine that meets U.S. standards, the standards will suddenly change to become even more stringent.

I absolutely agree. It wouldn't be the first time, and it's mostly CARB. All the others are sheep.

ruking1

Along the lines of slow diesel news day, the VW good will package, of $500 pre paid debit card, $500 VW dealer only debit card & 3 yr/36,000 miles VW Road Side Assist will come in up to 4 weeks from application. One can pay $119. per year for AAA towing membership if one wanted to put a ballpark figure to VW RS Assist ( $1,357)
Realistically, for 4 diesels, in over 366,000 miles, I've never used/needed DIESEL road side assist, let alone VW RS Assist?
Unfortunately, (for me) using roadside assist was for the much more reliable & durable GASSERS! ? Specifically used four times: (twice each) Toyota Camry/ Landcruiser.

ruking1

Interesting CR article about tires! Being as how winter is coming upon us, it might be an interesting read!

https://www.yahoo.com/autos/best-and-worst-tires-in-1289069115031606.html

It is a good review for me because I do change from 155 # ft, 236 # ft, 369# ft, 406 # ft, diesels to ...gassers! Drives can go from FWD, RWD, AWD, 4WD, Tansmissions can be M/T 5/6 speeds, A/T 4,6,7,8 speeds, DSG 6 speed.

In addition to the no brainer midsize TDI PU truck application GMC Canyon/Chevrolet Colorado,& TDI 3.0L F/S PU truck, this article describes the other no-brainer TDI application! Get ready for a TDI growth spurt, despite all out attitude war against diesels, albeit small increments!

http://www.cnet.com/products/nissan-titan-xd-platinum-reserve/

TMI. I would be a buyer of non of these products.

Mr_Shiftright

Based on whatever research data I can find, there's really no evidence that a diesel car is any more reliable than a gasoline car. I mean, I understand where this perception came from (from the history of rugged and simple industrial diesel engines of years past) but I suspect it's just a perception, not anything we can prove.

Nonetheless, as they say "perception is reality", so if a portion of the buying public believes it, all the better for the future of the diesel car in the USA.

ruking1

Mr_Shiftright said:

Based on whatever research data I can find, there's really no evidence that a diesel car is any more reliable than a gasoline car. I mean, I understand where this perception came from (from the history of rugged and simple industrial diesel engines of years past) but I suspect it's just a perception, not anything we can prove.

Nonetheless, as they say "perception is reality", so if a portion of the buying public believes it, all the better for the future of the diesel car in the USA.

Well I think if the diesel/gas populations were like Europes (more 50-50) then you could easily have run the studies down. In the US markets @ 2013 PVF of 269.3 M with 3 to 5% or 8.079 M to 13.5 M & 50% light trucks, it does not surprise me that you can't dig it out.

Mr_Shiftright

It would be difficult to quantify, because there are so many variables. If I were asked to come up with a study in Europe, I think I'd canvas all the wrecking yards and look at the mileages. But even then, maybe all I'd prove is that diesel owners wreck their cars faster than gas car owners, or vice-versa, I dunno. Or maybe it turns out that diesel car owners are much older, and hence safer drivers. You see the problem here.

ruking1

Mr_Shiftright said:

It would be difficult to quantify, because there are so many variables. If I were asked to come up with a study in Europe, I think I'd canvas all the wrecking yards and look at the mileages. But even then, maybe all I'd prove is that diesel owners wreck their cars faster than gas car owners, or vice-versa, I dunno. Or maybe it turns out that diesel car owners are much older, and hence safer drivers. You see the problem here.

Oh yes! That's why I offer up anecdotal comparisons between gassers/diesels. I could /can find no formal studies either.
So yes, anecdotally, WAY less diesel issues than gas issues (like model, competitor, etc,.) . But even in my case/s, the mileages on the gas side are much greater than on the diesel side.
However, with an avg of the PVF (passenger vehicle fleet) @ almost 12 years, (15,000 miles, avg miles) 180,000 miles & 2/3rd's of the fleet, the majority of gassers hold out quite well!

ruking1

Here's an interesting article why I think diesels will grow in the US (& world) landscape/s we are in currently. That is with or without tha current VW fiasco! Do I think it will raise the DIESEL needle one click, i.e., 1%? NO! ...BUT.... App 2.7 M diesel sales MIGHT ! This I think is one of the anti-diesels cabals worst fears ! To hear it potrayed, reported, you would think the Mongul Hordes are about lay waste to western civilization as we know it! GLOBAL WARMING!
http://news.yahoo.com/detroits-big-three-accelerate-plans-build-more-small-125003749--finance.html

gagrice

Mr_Shiftright said:

It would be difficult to quantify, because there are so many variables. If I were asked to come up with a study in Europe, I think I'd canvas all the wrecking yards and look at the mileages. But even then, maybe all I'd prove is that diesel owners wreck their cars faster than gas car owners, or vice-versa, I dunno. Or maybe it turns out that diesel car owners are much older, and hence safer drivers. You see the problem here.

I have never owned a vehicle with more than 130k Miles and it was a real dog when I bought it with 100k miles on it. I just wanted a cheap PU and the 1999 Ford Ranger V6 seem to run fine. Until I hooked my little trailer to it. I just rarely keep anything much past the warranty. The Sequoia Limited 4WD we sold was 6 years old with 36k miles. Year left on extended warranty. And I was ready to unload it. It was still like brand new with a new set of Michelin tires. Practically gave it to my wife's grand daughter for $18k. Not a scratch on it with every option. With 3 young kids it is great.

I have put more miles on this Touareg TDI in a shorter time than any vehicle I have ever owned. Just past two years old with 27K miles. No complaints aside from the NavTeq worthless navigation software. Smartphone and Google Maps are preferable.

ruking1

Yeah, I don't know if this is advantage VW diesel or advantage European OEM's that actually designed so the oil can be drained conventionally or (literally sucked out) evacuated via the dipstick port. Be that as it may, from the start in the 2003 VW Jetta TDI's ownership, for 4 years of ownership we ran app 25,000 miles per year. It also required niche,niche, niche marketed motor oil. (Delvac 1 5w40) So I got on 30,000 miles OCI's.or app 1.2 years. Oil evacuation and replenishments took all of six minutes . The rest of the time was cleaning up and recycling the products wrappings & containers.

For me, in each segment (compact 4 door sedan, mid/compact CUV) , diesels (vs gassers) are much more fun to drive! Allthat other stuff (my posted 11 to 13 advantage points) are just icing on the cake !

Mr_Shiftright

Hmmm...diesel car sales in America? I don't think they are going to get any better anytime soon. Truck sales, sure. Americans like diesel trucks full-size, mid-size, even Jeeps.

I'm afraid VW has harmed car diesels just like GM did in the 1980s. Hopefully this tainted image will recover in a year or two.

The fate of diesel cars is tied to the fate of gasoline cars. They are siamese twins in terms of the marketplace.

So if some environmental crisis in the next decade or two requires a "Manhattan project" to get us off fossil fuels, then the two types of engine will expire simultaneously.

ruking1

Since you haven't defined it, I truly don't know what your statement means! If it is meant as a 36 to 40 year look back vis a vie GM 1980's diesels, ah no!

My guess in 40 years, diesel PVF will be a minimum of 10% to 15%, if they are even remotely serious about the 52.5 mpg fuel standard. Easiest way to kill the diesel market is to keep fuel cheap & kill the fuel standards!? What do you think the chances of either/or and/or both are of happening? Not even close!! Ergo, growth in TDI's Do you really also see our PVF reversing from 75% large cars to light trucks,TO 75% small to compact cars?

How did Europe grow diesels, i.e. to over 50 % of the PVF ? High fuel prices, high mpg standards! Does this sound familiar?

But in terms of gallonage, you see a midsize PU truck go from 18 mpg to 31 mpg (72.2% better!) with a switch to diesel ! Do you really think if they could do it with gassers, they would switch to diesels? Don't forget GM mucked up (gasser) selective cylinder routine also! Sounds like the key here is to ... bypass GM!

I got to tell you, if the Corvette did not have the Tremec 6/7 speed manual transmission, I highly doubt I would've gotten that 2001 Chevrolet Corvette. Indeed I think they're coming to the limits of the (gasser) small block pushrod V-8 ! But folks are just starting to really understand about a small block V8 TDI that puts out 550# ft of torque.without much fanfare.

stever

We'll still have ICE cars in 2055? Bummer.

"Volkswagen said its manipulations of carbon dioxide emission levels affect more gasoline-powered engines at the German carmaker than it had previously disclosed."

Volkswagen says more gas-powered engines had emissions cheat device (CBC)

Note that none of this batch of cars were sold in the US or Canada.

texases

Folks often ask "Why can't we in the US get the cars the Europeans get, the ones that deliver unbelievable fuel economy?" Now we know...they don't exist!

cdnpinhead

texases said:

Folks often ask "Why can't we in the US get the cars the Europeans get, the ones that deliver unbelievable fuel economy?" Now we know...they don't exist!

They absolutely do exist, but don't meet CARB/EPA NOX requirements. The rest of the world worries mostly about carbon dioxide.

texases

Not to the extent their gas consumption ratings would infer. For example, the Prius in Great Britain gets about 20% better fuel economy on the EU test than the US test, even though it's basically the same vehicle. The EU tests overstate fuel economy. Add on cheating like this, and the consumption estimates are even more unrealistic.

ruking1

Easy answer, to compare " same" cars built for different markets is/are misleading to begin with! For all intents and purposes, the same cars are NOT the same cars !

For example, this took me a certain amount of research to find . 2003 VW Jetta TDI US markets has smaller injectors, 5 speed manual, less power. The European version has bigger injectors, 6 speed manual, more power & gets better mpg. So what? I can not get a European version here! Would I like (projected) 52+ mpg vs only 50mpg? Why certainly!

texases

When I did this a while back, the US/GB Prius models had the same engine and battery specs.

ruking1

This is a diesel thread. In addition, what you did doesn't matter. You can not operate a European Pruis in the US. It is for all intents & purposes against the law.

texases

I'm pretty sure the diesel fuel economy ratings are equally overstated. Sorry you didn't get the point.

ruking1

texases said:

I'm pretty sure the diesel fuel economy ratings are equally overstated. Sorry you didn't get the point.

You point was clear from the start. Too bad YOU didn't get or refuse to acknowledge the (same is not the same) point, and you can not test them side by side to verify your claim.

houdini1

Imperial gallon make a difference?

texases

houdini1 said:

Imperial gallon make a difference?

Folks often forget about that when they go to British sites, it's about a 20% boost to 'mpgs'. I backed that out first, still had about a 20% difference.

gagrice

texases said:

I'm pretty sure the diesel fuel economy ratings are equally overstated. Sorry you didn't get the point.

There is no good way of knowing, is there? They may look like the same engine, but we know they have far more restrictive emissions than the EU versions. The old pre 2004 VW diesels got better mileage. Now if you want to say the EU version of the EPA are bigger liars. I would not doubt it. They show the Jetta TDI with DSG getting 56 MPG US.

The 2002 Jetta TDI was EPA rated at 38 MPG Combined. Average owner got over 47 MPG. I take what the EPA says with very little credibility. It is obvious from this diesel fiasco they are CLUELESS about what they are allowing on our highways. Took a European group to hit them upside the head to get their attention. EPA/CARB are just wasting oxygen and tax dollars.

gagrice

If you want to witness a REAL diesel engine, check this out.

http://www.carvideos.tv/news/1571/1936-fairbanks-morse-model-32d-stationary-engine-shakes-the-ground-once-again

fintail

I've been in Italy for a few days now, I think there might be as many diesels as in Germany, or maybe they are just louder. Noise award goes to aging versions of the Citroen Picasso, which sound like marbles in a blender. Not too many smokers (rollin coal is an inbred Murkan thing, I think), but some of the older commercial vehicles are suspect. So many people smoke, that diesel pollution is probably a moot point

VERY few Prius here, almost always a Taxi. Some other Toyota hybrids, but they are just normal models with a hybrid badge. It seems in Europe, hybrid doesn't need a unique shape to sell, fuel efficiency is more of a way of life (hence diesels) and not a "look at me" piece of jewelry.

Only 3 Teslas spotted in my whole trip (about 20 minutes worth back home), all in Germany.

ruking1

fintail said:

I've been in Italy for a few days now, I think there might be as many diesels as in Germany, or maybe they are just louder. Noise award goes to aging versions of the Citroen Picasso, which sound like marbles in a blender. Not too many smokers (rollin coal is an inbred Murkan thing, I think), but some of the older commercial vehicles are suspect. So many people smoke, that diesel pollution is probably a moot point

VERY few Prius here, almost always a Taxi. Some other Toyota hybrids, but they are just normal models with a hybrid badge. It seems in Europe, hybrid doesn't need a unique shape to sell, fuel efficiency is more of a way of life (hence diesels) and not a "look at me" piece of jewelry.

Only 3 Teslas spotted in my whole trip (about 20 minutes worth back home), all in Germany.

I hope you are having a great trip!

Yes to all of the above, more, louder, older, & yes smoking has long been culturally accepted. On topic, the "louderness" issue between US/European like models could be due to higher compression.

Diesels, Engines! Cars designed with higher compression can easily be optimized for more power & MPG, etc. to name two of interest currently on this thread.

TMI

All things being equal, a compression ratio of 25 to 1 (marbles in blender- can) verses 14 to 1 (more gasser like) can have much better power & MPG.

All things being equal, I'd be just fine with more power and better MPG! I have read that WW compression ratios are @ 19 to 1.

ruking1

Much ado about NOT much!
http://news.yahoo.com/vw-sales-drop-europe-no-092332053.html

Mr_Shiftright

15 diesel car sales in the USA? No way, unless automakers start putting diesel engines in a much wider range of car types and sizes. People don't just shop MPG.

ruking1

A bit of an off beat notion given our markets, even though in decision making, I might welcome it ? So that I am not vague, 3 each diesel/gas/hybrid etc offerings might be ideal . The real problematic issue is that it would actually decrease the number of models that are available on the US markets! Now we can't have that can we? One can easily see a partial implementation in the new Golf MQB platform. Jetta also has Gas,TDI's, gas hybrid, EV.

Well, both of us agree, the majority of folks really do NOT care about MPG ! To put a % to it, 95 to 98%! Most folks don't even care about the 11 to 13 items that gives diesels tremendous advantages & also would get me to switch back to gassers! In addition, most gasser folks even though they don't use it are totally ADDICTED to 0 to 60 times! ? It's great if folks are stoplight racers. Funny thing about that is however, I don't often hear folks asking if those gassers have MONSTER brakes! Aka, don't care too much about how good the brakes are. Indeed when most folks asked for replacement brake pads/rotors, most aski for CHEAPER replacement components, aka less stopping power. Or the one that makes me laugh, they are upset about the (brake) dust.

With the diesel passenger vehicle fleet up between three and 5%, it is more than apparent that diesels have been are & will remain a niche, minority market!