What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

stever

fintail said:

Have you been to Hamburg lately, Steve?

Never been to the industrial part, just basically Trier to Munich (I'm Southern, remember? ). Picked Hamburg because one site had it in the top 5 for smog for cities in Germany.

Are High Efficiency Clean Diesel Automobiles a Myth?

The answer is no, per Forbes.

Fury as Volkswagen rule out compensation to British owners of diesel cheating cars (express.co.uk)

"The VW revelations appear to have heightened concerns about fuel economy more than diesel emissions, with nearly three-quarters (73%) of the 2,565 people surveyed saying they were more concerned about MPG than diesel particulates."

Volkswagen emissions scandal has dented faith in car companies but not in diesel (motoringresearch.com)

That's a UK site. Follow the money pound.

ruking1

I think you really have to address the issue in another way. It is very obvious that nobody sees or acknowledges that 36 mpg does not equal 22 MPG? Ask an environmentalist and seemingly they are saying 22 MPG is better than 36 mpg . They also seem to be saying that gasoline use throws zero NOX. (Use way more,while professing to using less!. Of course you further charge more because you actually are using more

So that me the real question is given the 42 gallons in a barrel oil : which US 19 gallons of gasoline and 10 gallons of diesel, what would be the cost to environmentally put the 10 gallons of diesel back into the oil field , from whence it came. Of course guys like me would demand & get ftax credits for the difference in cost between old price of diesel and the new price of gasoline for life. I think easily the process should double the price of gasoline .

stever

Well, you can't lump everyone into the same boat (well, you can, but it'll sink). On your Eco labeling spectrum, some will say it's bad to burn any of that resource when it could be put to better uses, and used to make things that are more easily recycled than waste oil.

The follow the money comment scoops up people who want to be green, until the green is the stuff in their pocketbook. So they may have a kid with asthma but still want 36 mpg and thus will buy a TDI.

If you want consistency in humans, you'll have to whip up a batch of Soylent Green.

ruking1

Well, the folks calling for ending diesel cars have NO issues doing EXACTLY what you are saying should not be done !? The truth is most people are more asthmatic toward gasoline than diesel. Even the SQMD statistics shows beyond a doubt that the majority of the pollution is caused by other sources, rather than "mobile sources"!!!! Diesel cars are a very very very small minority! So if you could wave your magic wand and get rid of ALL gas/ diesel, the pollution index would NOT get appreciably better! Indeed it would be hard to measure, let alone establish a significant correlation!

The practical answer is very simple ! Let the freer market decide who will buy diesel (3 to5% ) & who will buy gasoline (95 to 97%) Who will buy natural gas, ethanol, EV, hydrogen, etc.

According to the environmentals, this whole all or nothing (100%) gas ADDITUDE is what got us into this fix in the first place! Did they forget why they waded into the swamp to drain it ....in the first place ? There are those environmentalists that sound & act like religious extremists!? So in effect, jihad continues to be waged against diesel!

Remember that IF the regulators were indeed regulating, the law sets the standards that the diesel cars have to be very close to gassers & vice versa & ...they are!

fintail

No doubt it is, port city with shipping, and such areas sometimes have natural pollution traps (see LA or Seattle temperature inversions, etc). Of course, the ecoweenies love to make the most alarmist reports on days with unusual atmospheric conditions.

At the most, I think this fiasco will just encourage more Adblue tech.

stever said:

fintail said:

Have you been to Hamburg lately, Steve?

Never been to the industrial part, just basically Trier to Munich (I'm Southern, remember? ). Picked Hamburg because one site had it in the top 5 for smog for cities in Germany.

stever

ruking1 said:

The practical answer is very simple ! Let the freer market decide

I'd rather let the people decide. Around the developed world, people have decided they'd prefer clean air and clean water.

(Let me know if you find a free market - maybe there's one lurking under that vat of Soylent Green?).

ruking1

We already know how the people's are voting! I am sure you know what 95 to 97% gasser use means.

Lol ! They (CA) voted & forced the use of MTBE in 95 to 97% gassers, despite dire warnings that it would be catastrophic TO the water supply! Jihad on? I have read a few articles saying that this forced investment cost billions of dollars and still being reflected in the cost of gasoline to make up for the fiasco . MTBE clean up is still ongoing ! FUBAR if you ask me.

fintail

I've recently been to some areas with pretty high human development indices, and people seem to love diesel there.

stever said:

I'd rather let the people decide. Around the developed world, people have decided they'd prefer clean air and clean water.

stever

Guess they can afford the higher price tags. And they already aren't living in a poor air quality area.

carboy21

People in EU and UK have voted with their wallet for diesel cars. They are fools or thrifty ? Air quality there is better then CA.

carboy21

I wish San Andreas fault would shift and take away California to the Alaska.

stever

carboy21 said:

People in EU and UK have voted with their wallet for diesel cars. They are fools or thrifty ?

Pound foolish. They were "paid" to drive diesels by the incentives and subsidies.

In other news, VW has just announced that all new car buyers will get a free drone. (WSJ)

carboy21

stever said:

carboy21 said:

Pound foolish. They were "paid" to drive diesels by the incentives and subsidies.

People in USA are prevented from buying diesel cars by the excessively stringent emission standards set by the Eco [non-permissible content removed]

stever

Godwin's Law.

Next.

ruking1

carboy21 said:

I wish San Andreas fault would shift and take away California to the Alaska.

The truth is that has been happening for literally EONs! It is driven by nuclear energy! So it encompasses both your humorous or rhetorical effects, TO literal time frames (Carl Sagan est) geological timing as in billion years = 1 eon.

On the east, the IRISH joke in County Cork?: is the next county over is ...America. (NON cultural/racial ) as the granite rock in Maine is same to similar in Ireland! The lack of potatoes, a Peruvian import, obviously cause a lot of Irish to come here!

Since before LA settlers, native peoples have been looking at settlers as being crazy for moving enmass to the LA LA land areas. Of course, I.guess it helps that the LA LA area sits atop a large geological natural gas and oil area!

It is the trip going to a McDonald's and having an active oil pump area in the parking lot! As for climate change. It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas !

Costco Folsom CA ULSD $ 2.39, RUG $$ 2.27, PUG $ 2.51. Hot Dog & drink $ 1.50 + tax! YEE HAW!

gagrice

I can say I agree with the folks in the UK that are more interested in MPG than G/KM of CO2.

I wish the EPA would recognize the TRUE polluters. According to Wiki a NY/CA Roundtrip flight produces about 1917 KG of CO2 per passenger. That of course assumes all seats are full. My Touareg TDI puts out 173 G/KM of CO2 according to the UK website. According to my calculations, my wife and I can drive the 6000 miles roundtrip and only produce 1674 KG of CO2. Or 837KG of CO2 per passenger. That makes flying over twice as polluting than driving a large SUV.

If I could just drive the Touareg TDI to Hawaii all would be wonderful.

ruking1

gagrice said:

I can say I agree with the folks in the UK that are more interested in MPG than G/KM of CO2.

I wish the EPA would recognize the TRUE polluters. According to Wiki a NY/CA Roundtrip flight produces about 1917 KG of CO2 per passenger. That of course assumes all seats are full. My Touareg TDI puts out 173 G/KM of CO2 according to the UK website. According to my calculations, my wife and I can drive the 6000 miles roundtrip and only produce 1674 KG of CO2. Or 837KG of CO2 per passenger. That makes flying over twice as polluting than driving a large SUV.

If I could just drive the Touareg TDI to Hawaii all would be wonderful.

Yes, the priorities are totally FUBAR!

Having driven multiple times down to Key West, the Florida Keys: going to Hawaii like that sure is a wonderful fantasy!

elias

in diesel news, i'm looking at gratuitously buying a 1997 Benz E300 diesel, please dissuade me from buying it.
in volkswagen news, it looks like I got a custom VW software tune on for my 2015 Chevy Eco-SS (stickshift), the lifetime mpg is slightly better than expected.... see attached Onstar screenshot (i did not photoshop this, it is the actual android app display).

ruking1

Really there's not enough information to comment!

However, do you have a great MB diesel Indy shop close by ? Or how much of a DIYer are you? (You know this, but saying it for the general board ) Older (newer for that matter) specialty cars have their quirks ! So it's almost like you need to find a guy/ INDY shop/s who will treat that specialty car like a pet, & knows its quirks!

So for example, we have one (INDY) shop, the owner specializes in TLC's. As reliable as durable as they are reputed to be, they have many quirks! One of his guys that does the Civic, races them on the weekends! The INDY EURO places are 4 star rated & a stones throw down/ up the block. So anytime I get maintenance there, I am real happy! I also can walk home so that's a plus. They all know where I live, so they just drive me anyway.

We also have two HUGE dealers in town: Honda & Toyota.

Not 5 miles up the street, there is an auto mail with close to EVERY brand, sans the McLaren dealership. On their website, they say the San Francisco dealership is really in ...PALO ALTO?

From limited information, I would run app 3 psi over recommended (36 psi), in a case like yours (39 psi) (front engine, rear wheel drive? )

Corvette Z06 (32 rec,35/37 psi) 76,000 miles @ app 25 mpg, PUG. The first set (different front/rear tires) lasted 51,000 miles. I had to pull it down a little early because it was aligned for set for a 1G skidpad specification. I got it aligned more for touring. It started @ 8/32nds tread. OEM's tires still have not come too much off $ 1,600 a set. (3.137 cents per mile driven: tires.) Commuting does not make a lot of sense vs TDI's ( .0044 ,$396, Touareg higher @ .0077 cents ($696), 90,000 miles) @ 7 to 4 times MORE! Geez, I think I'm cured!

Happy Thanksgiving to ALL!

gagrice

Happy Thanksgiving to all my Edmunds Friends.

ruking1

VW will offer even better values & bang for the buck, for those that have the stomach for the media's chicken littling, for the foreseeable future!

http://247wallst.com/autos/2015/11/26/vw-sales-expected-to-crash-in-november/

stever

Some of that will be angst over dieselgate and some will be lack of cars to sell. Going to be a skinny Christmas for a lot of VW dealers I'm afraid.

ruking1

Truly, it is a(VW) buyers market!! I suspect not many folks will take advantage of it?

stever

Just the smart ones.

Then again, if the mess drags out on and on, the resale values could tank making it hard to trade up in a few years. But if you drive 'em forever, your only worry would be that your local dealer would close. But if you're the drive them forever type, you likely use an indy mechanic anyway.

carboy21

I think the non-neutered VW TDIs will become collector's cars. Some might just remove the TDI badge from the trunk lid to prevent being targeted by Eco [non-permissible content removed]

stever

"Engines from Volkswagen AG’s luxury brand Audi AG have been implicated in the German car maker’s emissions crisis, leading the unit to suspend two engineers suspected of rigging engines to cheat emissions tests.

Authorities in the U.S. and Germany have launched investigations of the world’s No. 2 premium car maker on Wednesday, marking the first time that engines built by Audi for the Volkswagen group are clearly in the focus of the emissions crisis".

Audi Engines Implicated in Emissions Scandal (WSJ - may be a registration link)

There's another version of the story at Left Lane News, saying "affected models include certain Audi A7, A8 and A8L sedans, along with the Q5, Q7, VW Touareg and Porsche Cayenne crossovers.".

carboy21

Never ending nightmare for VW.

Why not just reduce the emissions standards

houdini1

carboy21 said:

Never ending nightmare for VW.

Why not just reduce the emissions standards

I've often thought the same thing. As long as the standards are reasonable, cars should only have to meet the standards in their country of origin. Cars from countries with unreasonably low standards could just be banned.

stever

Lowest common denominator eh?

houdini1

stever said:

Lowest common denominator eh?

If within reason. Maybe that is what they are doing now, but have deemed EU standards unreasonable !

fintail

Thatr's a good point - diesel is kind of a cult already, non-castrated VWs might actually become a desirable item more than enough to compensate for any resale issues (which if that happens, it will be short term, as consumers have short memories). When it comes down to it, I doubt few if any of the target demographic for these cars truly cares about a relatively infinitesimal amount of emissions. They want the mpg and understand the big picture.

carboy21

fintail said:

When it comes down to it, I doubt few if any of the target demographic for these cars truly cares about a relatively infinitesimal amount of emissions. They want the mpg and understand the big picture.

And the low end torque. Most diesel owner's know that they are being targeted by the anti-diesel lobby and the eco-[non-permissible content removed]. There are a lots more vehicles which cause greater Pollution. Beijing smog and LA smog were not due to diesel cars. Their percentage in those cities is less then 3 % of the total vehicles.

stever

And there's a good bit of pushback in the EU about the (proposed?) lowering of standards.

Companies and people usually fare better when they under promise and over deliver. VW built an entire image around "clean diesel".

texases

The carmakers would have better made their point about unreasonable standards by not making these cars, rather than cheating. Carmakers have always complained about new regs, but then meet them. Too much 'crying wolf'.

fintail

Pushback from who? Greenies and bleeding heart types? (who are trying as hard as they can, in many ways, to run Europe into the ground - both to makes themselves feel better about imagined past sins, and to line their already undeservedly bloated bank accounts) When it comes down to a vehicle that is more powerful and economical, consumers will probably overlook possibly insignificant emissions data.

fintail

Yep, nor are any European air quality issues (exaggerated by the alarmist hybrid cult) due to modern diesel passenger cars, rather, industrial applications and old commercial vehicles teaming up with uncommon weather phenomenon.

In Germany I saw a diesel RAV4 towing a horse trailer.

carboy21 said:

And the low end torque. Most diesel owner's know that they are being targeted by the anti-diesel lobby and the eco-[non-permissible content removed]. There are a lots more vehicles which cause greater Pollution. Beijing smog and LA smog were not due to diesel cars. Their percentage in those cities is less then 3 % of the total vehicles.

stever

Poor horsey.

bjohansen

I'm not really interested in anything diesel, mostly for the reasons others have already mentioned. I'd be more prone to try a hybrid.

ruking1

Slow diesel news day! $ 2.39 ULSD, $ 2.25 RUG, $ 2.51 PUG. The MB GLK 250 BT is posting (computer) about 36 mpg in 70 mph traffic, SOS/DD upgrade leg. There was a HUGE traffic jam @ the Livermore Premium Outlet Mall exit. Most of this leg was 70- 75 mph rolling TRAFFIC! (200/210 miles) Seems like a lot of people take this Black Friday shopping seriously!?

stever

Big line at Walmart here at 2 pm for the 6 pm sale yesterday, according to our checker. We went at 8:45 pm and checked out at 9:20 and there was only one person in line ahead of us finishing up.

I needed eggs (the neighborhood hens are on strike) and some produce and stuff and unfortunately none of that stuff was marked down.

But there is big diesel news today.

VW's surreal fix turns diesel scandal into a comedy (autonews.com)

"VW has now resolved the hardest aspect of its massive recall as that specific engine required technical modifications.

Not only does the proposed new component bring the cars into compliance in Europe, VW Group believes the fix will not even impede fuel efficiency or engine output."

The new gizmo calms the swirled air flow. Why am I thinking of a Tornado vortex thingy right now?

ruking1

bjohansen said:

I'm not really interested in anything diesel, mostly for the reasons others have already mentioned. I'd be more prone to try a hybrid.

Surely, to each their own !

For me, there are way too many (11 to 13) negatives to get into the gasser hybrid! This is also true for getting back into almost all current gassers. One thing that would entice (as in gun to head) me to consider getting a new hybrid: same lower, (to lower) price as the (like model) gasser with 12 more disadvantages to remediate! Right, so how's that working?

The 2004 Toyota Prius hybrid was app $12,000 more than (competitor gasser) 2004 Civic. It was $10,000 more than the 2004 Toyota Corolla!!?? @ today's prices ($2.25 RUG), y @ 43 mpg vs 38 mph, the B/E point would be absurdly high! ( how long/ miles to B/E @ 5 mpg better) A $12,000 difference buys 203,000 miles: that is 13.5 years (15,000 miles per year avg US driver) of commuting!

It is funny how the folks that would consider or buy a hybrid @ $ 10,000 to $12,000 more (than a competitive gasser) , (in this case) get almost rightously indignant/ whacked out when told the diesel is up to "$2000 more" than a gasser. EV is even MORE!

carboy21

And for the rest – the 1.6-liter versions that required technical modifications –- a quick run to their local do-it-yourself chain to pick up a plastic drain trap would have sufficed? Total service time required according to VW: less than one hour, if that. It's almost surreal.
The whole scandal is beginning to sound more and more like a very, very expensive exercise in tragicomedy.

Why did they cheat instead of putting this drain-pipe in the first place and save themselves the global ignominy ?

Something stinks about this fix. Fuehrer is laughing in his grave as his VW pulls another fast one

gagrice

stever said:

But there is big diesel news today.

VW's surreal fix turns diesel scandal into a comedy (autonews.com)

"VW has now resolved the hardest aspect of its massive recall as that specific engine required technical modifications.

Not only does the proposed new component bring the cars into compliance in Europe, VW Group believes the fix will not even impede fuel efficiency or engine output."

The new gizmo calms the swirled air flow. Why am I thinking of a Tornado vortex thingy right now?

Cheap fixes are many times not done with much more serious consequences than the VW TDI fiasco. Wasn't the GM ignition a 25 cent fix? That recall had more years and 125 deaths attributable. If VW gets nailed any worse than GM does VW will have a good reason to battle it in international court.

I got an invite to contact an ambulance chaser, on the chance our Touareg is included in the debacle. I shredded it will all the other crap I get every day in the mail.

gagrice

Why hasn't VW ever offered the Caddy here in the USA? I was just looking at the 2016 model in Alltrack. In the rest of the World it has 9 engine options. 4 TDI, 4 gas and NG model. They are similar to the Ford that I see everywhere. Has to be a much better built vehicle than the Turkish built Ford Transit Connect.



http://www.autoblog.com/2015/09/13/vw-caddy-alltrack-frankfurt-official/

stever

That would get me down to the dealer for a look.

Not the greatest name for the US market although it rolls off the tongue easier than Touareg or Tiguan.

carboy21

Caddy name would be more appropriate for a Golf cart

ruking1

Heavenly snow! (Not a thing to do with TDI's!)
http://www.skiheavenly.com/the-mountain/snow-report/snow-report.aspx

gagrice

carboy21 said:

Caddy name would be more appropriate for a Golf cart

The Europeans are goofy with their names anyway. Why do they call delivery trucks a LORRIE? Sounds like a country singers name.

carboy21

Twingo, Megane, Laguna ,Clio , Almeira, Micra, Pulsar, Juke, Qashqai ,Pluriel, Xsara, Elysee, Zero, Saxo, Cactus .........

Those are car names in EU !

LOL

gagrice

ruking1 said:

Heavenly snow! (Not a thing to do with TDI's!)
http://www.skiheavenly.com/the-mountain/snow-report/snow-report.aspx

Looks like Tahoe and Sierras may be the snow place to be this year. My sister just moved back to So Lake Tahoe after about 20 years looking for the perfect place to live. She is happy back working at the Lakeside Inn where she started in the 1980s. Same duplex and neighbor. She finally feels she is where she belongs. I love Tahoe myself. Not enough to live there in the Winter.