Went on a MB factory tour today, was informed that 60% of MB production is diesel. Or maybe it was 40%. Still a big number. Saw a lot of diesel S-class coming off the line.
Is that a compliment or insult, @houdini1? You'll have to help me out here since I don't watch TV and see the interaction. When I think of press secretaries I think of obfuscation, dancing around the issue and diverting the question to some other topic by answering something that wasn't asked ....
It just means that he is a very accomplished debater and can think on his feet.
It was awesome, of course. Informative and free. I've done it twice in Germany now, and once in Murka. First time in Germany was C-class, this time S-class. It's amazing how clean and efficient the facility is here.
Nothing false, just a bad choice to compare. Any 24 mpg car (burning premium, no less) will look terrible against an old, polluting 50 mpg diesel. Take modern cars, like I did, and the difference in $$ almost disappears.
Nothing false, just a bad choice to compare. Any 24 mpg car (burning premium, no less) will look terrible against an old, polluting 50 mpg diesel. Take modern cars, like I did, and the difference in $$ almost disappears.
How you are saying it is totally misleading! Or totally elitist! Why ? The example MB is circa, 2014, hardly an "OLD" diesel or an old gasser! Differences remain/are even more STARK!
So IF $10,000 is chump change to you, all I can say is I salute you ! So do you pal around with (environmental hypocrites like) DiCaprio & Gore?
Is it your opinion ? Yes! Go ahead and spend MORE! You are the perfect example !
I'm talking about the Jetta comparison. Modern (2015) Jettas would have $50-$100/year difference.
Thanks for proving my point, & disproving yours. The 15 Jetta (avg 10 ea) 1.8 T gas posted 29.18 versus TDI 42.32 mpg. Still, diesel is 45% BETTER! Fuelly.com.
@ today's prices gassers cost $500. per year (15,000 miles) more! Over 12 years/180,000 miles that is $ 6,000 !
You must be using a POTUS/Congressional calculator!? It is taking out about $450-$400 per year before it gives you the answer of $50. To $100. ?
That's with no 'fix', right? Those TDI mpgs will drop. Their reported mpgs on fueleconomy.com are better for the gasser, both EPA rating and reported by drivers, than 29.2. They report 37 mpg gasser, 40 mpg TDI.
That's with no 'fix', right? Those TDI mpgs will drop. There reported mpgs on fueleconomy.com are better for the gasser, both EPA rating and reported by drivers, than 29.2. They report 37 mpg gasser, 40 mpg TDI.
Mileage & power dropping on the 2.0L TDI is still speculation. On the newer SCR (urea injection) cars the only downside will be more use of Adblue. Even on my V6 3.0L TDI Adblue usage is a non issue.
"The Kraftfahrt-Bundesamt (KBA) regulator said on Wednesday it would run tests on models made by 23 German and foreign car brands on suspicion of further manipulation of nitrogen oxides emission"
The more fun question is what if they find that these Fords, BMWs and Mercedes are dumping more emissions than permitted but there's no evidence of cheating going on? Would kind of make VW's mea culpa a bit less meaningful if the non-cheaters can't comply either.
I actually do it for NONE of my four diesels ! It is being done in normal operation anyway! Whether he or anybody else knows it, he has a weak battery!
"We are not building Passats with TDI engines at this time, but as we are in the middle of the ramp-up of the production volume, it is no problem to adjust the mix to accommodate this change," company spokesman Scott Wilson said."
Right, using the described concept, that was what I was saying about VW's 2.5% market share & 23% diesel take rate, with wound stopping. MY's 2015 & 2016. If the 2016 diesels are RE certified, they could in the best case, end up with more sales than 2015 MY.
So it's more than obvious and VW has acknowledged, that it will take a longer ( more years) timeline to get to 850,000 units in US market ! On (projected) 2015 sales (17.5M) that's app 5% from 2.5% 2014 MY. ( app 435,500 units) Diesel sales of 23% ( app 100,625 ) are really internal measures.
So if I were an other than VW current diesel OEM, I'd be working overtime to get as many units and percentages of diesels that I made into the US marketplaces ! The 800# diesel gorilla just got time out! ? Some examples that comes to mind: RAM TDI, Nissan Titan, Chevrolet Colorado/GMC Canyon, MB, BMW, etc,.
So to me, this portends a GROWTH in the diesel pvf, NOT the death!
Okay I ran the numbers on a gas car getting 24 mpg and a TDI getting 35, over 180,000 miles, and it still comes out to $400 a year fuel savings. If you deduct from that the premium charged for the diesel engine, it's pretty much a wash over the course of 12 years. The only way for the "Diesel Payday" to work for the average new car buyer would be if the diesel and gas engine version of the same car were the same price.
Does any carmaker do that? I see that the 2015 Chevy Cruze diesel is $4,000 more.
The more fun question is what if they find that these Fords, BMWs and Mercedes are dumping more emissions than permitted but there's no evidence of cheating going on? Would kind of make VW's mea culpa a bit less meaningful if the non-cheaters can't comply either.
All it would mean is that the testing is poorly designed. The cars themselves, however, are not doing anything wrong (or the manufacturers, for that matter!).
2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
I would expect all cars, gas and diesel, to not meet the test specs in one way or another. This is not the same as what VW did to circumvent the test entirely.
Okay I ran the numbers on a gas car getting 24 mpg and a TDI getting 35, over 180,000 miles, and it still comes out to $400 a year fuel savings. If you deduct from that the premium charged for the diesel engine, it's pretty much a wash over the course of 12 years. The only way for the "Diesel Payday" to work for the average new car buyer would be if the diesel and gas engine version of the same car were the same price.
Does any carmaker do that? I see that the 2015 Chevy Cruze diesel is $4,000 more.
Let's see you minimize TDI mpg, and you do nothing to minimize gas mpg?
So again, if $4,800 is chump change to you... ISY ! $ 4,800/$ 2.53 will buy my 40 mpg 2009 Jetta TDI 75,889 miles of commuting!
Well yes, I have already answered that many times! ?
Two observations for the premium: 1.Chevy is not really serious about upping it's diesel percentage from (a very obscure reading app ) 1.5% or less.
2. They are a little more interested in either making higher profit (money) or still figuring out how to get the price down.
I've had zero issues (over 14 years) getting diesel's for close to or @ gasser prices. It remains to be seen when VW gets its diesels back into the US markets, what they will do with its price differentials.
Ruking, I am not kidding when I say you would make a better White House press secretary than Josh Earnest !!
Remember Baghdad Bob?
Well it does make me wonder why folks are pursuing or are ok with a socialist agenda ? But like I've said all along, the policy has been, is, remains professing to use less, while actually using more ! Claiming to cut costs, while systematically raising them ! It's pretty easy to see why the Frackers are economically prosecuted & persecuted, i.e., embarrassment ! Another is advocate the use of alternative fuels, while systematically crushing it ! I can't even make this stuff up !
I kinda thought this was going to happen. What a PR disaster this VW mess has been for diesel car manufacturers.
That means they're giving a total pass, "get out of jail free " to the whole gasser, gasser hybrid etc., side.! This indicates to me the whole gasser side is exponentially beyond explosive! "FAIRNESS" dictates 100% testing: gas, gas hybrid, diesel et al,. It is not like they've never had any issues with the gaser side! So we already know the gassers PVF emits FAR more CO2 than ULSD PVF, both unit %., 's and volumes. % and volumes PVF wise exponentially more!
"We are not building Passats with TDI engines at this time, but as we are in the middle of the ramp-up of the production volume, it is no problem to adjust the mix to accommodate this change," company spokesman Scott Wilson said."
I cannot imagine buying a VW gasser. They will have to pry my cold dead fingers from the steering wheel of my diesel SUV. I will never buy another gas powered vehicle. I am sure I can keep this Touareg TDI going as long as I need a vehicle.
My little brother that I spent a couple days with in Las Vegas is moving from Tampa to Puerto Rico where he is a partner in a sail boat charter business. He sold his M3 BMW and his wife is selling her X5. We drove around in the Touareg and they loved it. They would like to buy a used diesel X5 in PR. The price of diesel is less than gas. Today diesel is $2.11 and RUG $2.45. Import duties make taking a vehicle to PR very expensive.
Okay I ran the numbers on a gas car getting 24 mpg and a TDI getting 35, over 180,000 miles, and it still comes out to $400 a year fuel savings. If you deduct from that the premium charged for the diesel engine, it's pretty much a wash over the course of 12 years. The only way for the "Diesel Payday" to work for the average new car buyer would be if the diesel and gas engine version of the same car were the same price.
Does any carmaker do that? I see that the 2015 Chevy Cruze diesel is $4,000 more.
The MB GLK diesel is $500 less than the gas model. With a VW Golf you would need to buy the more expensive GTI to get the fun factor the diesel offers. When I bought my 2005 Passat diesel, I test drove the gas model. It was a dog by comparison. Not sure now but when I bought the Touareg in 2013 they were offering big discounts on all gas and diesel.
I would expect all cars, gas and diesel, to not meet the test specs in one way or another. This is not the same as what VW did to circumvent the test entirely.
I agree. I also think it is a slippery slope to start treating different engines differently in terms of the testing regimen. This needs to be an all-or-nothing approach. Either they apply on-road testing to all makes/models seeking certification, or they do none.
In either case, what I see when I read a headline like this is, "Watch your taxes go down the drain even faster!"
Frankly, I think they are going about this all wrong. Do they want the emissions standards to be a representation of how much a vehicle emits in the real world? Okay, fine. Set a standard and an acceptable variance range. Then, put the onus on the auto manufacturers to comply with the regulations without the EPA doing up-front testing and certification. Instead, do random on-road vehicle audits. If the audit results in a failing grade for that model (this means that an extrapolated X percent of the model fleet exceeds the standard by X percent), hit the manufacturer with a fine (based on extrapolation) and require model compliance or 100% buyback within twelve months.
Audits may occur at any time within the first five model years of age; a failed audit of one model year automatically results in an audit on subsequent model years. The end.
What this means is that the cost of enforcement goes down dramatically for the public, and the risk to the manufacturers for "cheating" goes way, way up because the only way you skate is if your model doesn't happen to be selected for audit within those five years. However, if it is (and there is a good chance that it will), and the mfg was intentionally not complying, the astronomical cost us outweighs any potential benefit (e.g., noncompliance over five years * fine * buyback or fix = Ouchies). No drivetrain or model choices become a scapegoat, and the EPA is then out of the babysitting (or strangling) business.
2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
I ran *your* numbers( you gave an example of 24.5 vs. 35 mpg) ! Also, the extra cost of buying the diesel seems to be ignored in your calculations. Nothing has been "saved" besides the $100 a year because $4000 more was spent to get the great MPG. In other words the gas is paid up front when the diesel is purchased.
This has not gone unnoticed by the buying public. No someone like gagrice is also in it for the driving experience and the MPG he gets for the size of the vehicle he owns. These are significant factors beyond MPG.
Okay I ran the numbers on a gas car getting 24 mpg and a TDI getting 35, over 180,000 miles, and it still comes out to $400 a year fuel savings. If you deduct from that the premium charged for the diesel engine, it's pretty much a wash over the course of 12 years. The only way for the "Diesel Payday" to work for the average new car buyer would be if the diesel and gas engine version of the same car were the same price.
Does any carmaker do that? I see that the 2015 Chevy Cruze diesel is $4,000 more.
Let's see you minimize TDI mpg, and you do nothing to minimize gas mpg?
So again, if $4,800 is chump change to you... ISY ! $ 4,800/$ 2.53 will buy my 40 mpg 2009 Jetta TDI 75,889 miles of commuting!
Well yes, I have already answered that many times! ?
Two observations for the premium: 1.Chevy is not really serious about upping it's diesel percentage from (a very obscure reading app ) 1.5% or less.
2. They are a little more interested in either making higher profit (money) or still figuring out how to get the price down.
I've had zero issues (over 14 years) getting diesel's for close to or @ gasser prices. It remains to be seen when VW gets its diesels back into the US markets, what they will do with its price differentials.
I ran *your* numbers( you gave an example of 24.5 vs. 35 mpg) ! Also, the extra cost of buying the diesel seems to be ignored in your calculations. Nothing has been "saved" besides the $100 a year because $4000 more was spent to get the great MPG. In other words the gas is paid up front when the diesel is purchased.
This has not gone unnoticed by the buying public. No someone like gagrice is also in it for the driving experience and the MPG he gets for the size of the vehicle he owns. These are significant factors beyond MPG.
Okay I ran the numbers on a gas car getting 24 mpg and a TDI getting 35, over 180,000 miles, and it still comes out to $400 a year fuel savings. If you deduct from that the premium charged for the diesel engine, it's pretty much a wash over the course of 12 years. The only way for the "Diesel Payday" to work for the average new car buyer would be if the diesel and gas engine version of the same car were the same price.
Does any carmaker do that? I see that the 2015 Chevy Cruze diesel is $4,000 more.
Let's see you minimize TDI mpg, and you do nothing to minimize gas mpg?
So again, if $4,800 is chump change to you... ISY ! $ 4,800/$ 2.53 will buy my 40 mpg 2009 Jetta TDI 75,889 miles of commuting!
Well yes, I have already answered that many times! ?
Two observations for the premium: 1.Chevy is not really serious about upping it's diesel percentage from (a very obscure reading app ) 1.5% or less.
2. They are a little more interested in either making higher profit (money) or still figuring out how to get the price down.
I've had zero issues (over 14 years) getting diesel's for close to or @ gasser prices. It remains to be seen when VW gets its diesels back into the US markets, what they will do with its price differentials.
It has never been ignored ! I think if anything, you are ignoring the fact that it was NOT ignored ! 25 mpg versus 35mpg was YOUR scenario. Fuelly.com avg of 10 indicates it was more like 43.18 mph ! Now if those were your realistic figures, (that you got) what is to prevent you from using it ?
Again, all you have to do is take out the diesel premium ( if you insisted on paying it) , add back in your potential resale value, and take it from there! Easy formulas! The #'s will obviously change. Or maybe that is NOT obvious?
I mean really if I tell you that diesel over here is now 2.53 or what is the anti diesel agenda that that reported price has to hold for 7 years /70,000 miles? Come on guy, you as well as I know that can change in an hours time!
Again I'm glad that you are agreeing with me that there are other significant factors besides MPG in diesel selection ! I have again been saying this all along! Indeed it has been boringly consistent !
resale value? That's been trashed by VW I'm afraid.
And yeah, it was your post that I was calculating from:
"If you go back to some of my posts, I use the MB's 22 mpg versus 35 mpg (like model) "
What I was trying to point out is that no matter how you cut it, on NEW cars of the same make/model, one gas, one diesel, you'll save about $100 a year.
Factoring in the premium one pays for the diesel engine is a logical thing to do. That's money actually spent.
"resale value" after 186,000 miles is pretty speculative, don't you think?
Now if the diesel engine costs the same as the gas engine, then you can make your savings about $350-400 a year. Not bad...not great, but not bad.
resale value? That's been trashed by VW I'm afraid.
And yeah, it was your post that I was calculating from:
"If you go back to some of my posts, I use the MB's 22 mpg versus 35 mpg (like model) "
What I was trying to point out is that no matter how you cut it, on NEW cars of the same make/model, one gas, one diesel, you'll save about $100 a year.
Factoring in the premium one pays for the diesel engine is a logical thing to do. That's money actually spent.
"resale value" after 186,000 miles is pretty speculative, don't you think?
Now if the diesel engine costs the same as the gas engine, then you can make your savings about $350-400 a year. Not bad...not great, but not bad.
Absolutely, it was obvious! I have already given 4 anecdotal examples, in probably too much detail.
Is resale value speculative after 186,000 miles? No, I do not think that! I have done 6 or so cars like that, most of them gassers! ( actually more like 200,000 to 250,000 miles! )
The $ 10,000 on the MB GLK 250 BT is app $833 per year! 15,000 miles 12 years 180,000 miles. @ $2.59 USLD @ 35mpg buys us 11,257 miles commuting. As been said, more than once and by more than one person, the GLK 250 BT is minus - $500. cheaper than the gas model.
This has not gone unnoticed by the buying public. No someone like gagrice is also in it for the driving experience and the MPG he gets for the size of the vehicle he owns. These are significant factors beyond MPG.
No doubt about that. Just the higher priced diesel has chased many a buyer away. I never recommend a diesel to friends and family. They are not for the unwashed masses. Quite frankly I don't want to have the diesel pumps blocked by them.
For myself it is so nice to use Gas Buddy and map out the cheapest stations for diesel. The trip this week to Las Vegas. I filled at a Union 76 station about 100 miles from home that had the cheapest price around. Right on Interstate 215. Drove the 250 miles to LV. Out to Hoover dam and some other sites. Then headed home. I already knew Brawley had the best price on our back road trip home. 635 miles on that tank with 70+ miles in reserve.
Traveling US 95 from LV to Blythe is two lane when you hit the CA border. Harry Reid took care of his voters. That 60 mile section of US 95 through his home town of Searchlight is all beautiful 4 lane, 75 MPH. When you hit the two lane and get behind trucks cruising along at 65 MPH, that VW TDI Torque is great 65-90 is very quick. I could never do that with the V8 gasser in the Sequoia. What a slug that was.
To me the overall driving experience trumps the difference in initial price. If I wanted a cheap POC, I could buy 4 Yaris for what I spent for the Touareg. Price is important to a person's budget. Not to what they want in a vehicle. I cannot believe someone that wants a Shelby GT500 would be happy driving a Scion. I got the best 4wheel drive SUV diesel in it's class according to C&D, that did the comparison, for less than any of the competition. Making the cost difference in fuel irrelevant, as they all got decent mileage.
Forgot where I saw this, probably Cars and Conversation, but CARB hasn't found any cheat devices on the additional 800,000 VWs checked. Haven't heard from the EPA. It was mentioned in one of the Winterkorn stories this morning.
Forgot where I saw this, probably Cars and Conversation, but CARB hasn't found any cheat devices on the additional 800,000 VWs checked. Haven't heard from the EPA. It was mentioned in one of the Winterkorn stories this morning.
Not to raise a ruckus, but this whole VW diesel thing has been blown WAY out of proportion! WAY beyond FUBAR- a WW2 technical term!
Nobody called for the end of gasoline because GM/Ford/Chrysler/Toyota/etc., etc. got caught cheating! In fact, we bailed out GM/Chrysler not too long ago, despite a long history & catalog of past cheating "sins".
What's this, a country-western stand by your man kind a song?
Nobody is calling for the end to EV or hybrids etc., because we are going to commence dirty mining practices! (by proxy-China). Indeed in about 30 years, we will see very clearly that we can thank the AM vets for doing the war in Afghanistan for rare earth minerals!
So yes, my prediction: it will take fully 30 years to achieve 5% EV PVF. 13.5 M units of 2013 NHTSA PVF. 269.3M. Hopefully by then we will figure out multiple propulsion sources is one of the better ways.
This has not gone unnoticed by the buying public. No someone like gagrice is also in it for the driving experience and the MPG he gets for the size of the vehicle he owns. These are significant factors beyond MPG.
No doubt about that. Just the higher priced diesel has chased many a buyer away. I never recommend a diesel to friends and family. They are not for the unwashed masses. Quite frankly I don't want to have the diesel pumps blocked by them.
For myself it is so nice to use Gas Buddy and map out the cheapest stations for diesel. The trip this week to Las Vegas. I filled at a Union 76 station about 100 miles from home that had the cheapest price around. Right on Interstate 215. Drove the 250 miles to LV. Out to Hoover dam and some other sites. Then headed home. I already knew Brawley had the best price on our back road trip home. 635 miles on that tank with 70+ miles in reserve.
Traveling US 95 from LV to Blythe is two lane when you hit the CA border. Harry Reid took care of his voters. That 60 mile section of US 95 through his home town of Searchlight is all beautiful 4 lane, 75 MPH. When you hit the two lane and get behind trucks cruising along at 65 MPH, that VW TDI Torque is great 65-90 is very quick. I could never do that with the V8 gasser in the Sequoia. What a slug that was.
To me the overall driving experience trumps the difference in initial price. If I wanted a cheap POC, I could buy 4 Yaris for what I spent for the Touareg. Price is important to a person's budget. Not to what they want in a vehicle. I cannot believe someone that wants a Shelby GT500 would be happy driving a Scion. I got the best 4wheel drive SUV diesel in it's class according to C&D, that did the comparison, for less than any of the competition. Making the cost difference in fuel irrelevant, as they all got decent mileage.
Yes, there are some truly beautiful freeways out in the middle of nowhere going somewhere in Nevada! A lot of the two lane roads are actually nice! Even as it's easy to argue that rural roads like these have greater fatality rates. If one is a fan, farther north, Patagonia has an outlet in the sticks of Reno,NV.
@ruking1, your stuff about the opium wars was cut - getting way too far off topic in here.
But that CARB comment is about cars other than VW, right? Not what you said...
Ah, thanks for catching that @texases - I did misread it. Here's the quote:
"Up until now we have found no fraudulent defeat device in vehicles of other brands," the magazine quoted Mary Nichols, chair of the California Air Resources Board (CARB), as saying in an interview published on Tuesday."
It's the 30d, which sounds like a truck at cold idle. It'll be interesting to see how it consumes fuel.
The X3 with a bigger diesel than ours should be fun to drive. They claim 5.9 seconds to 62 MPH. We'll make an SUV fan out of you yet. Keep us posted on the ride.
It's the 30d, which sounds like a truck at cold idle. It'll be interesting to see how it consumes fuel.
The X3 with a bigger diesel than ours should be fun to drive. They claim 5.9 seconds to 62 MPH. We'll make an SUV fan out of you yet. Keep us posted on the ride.
This may be the US vs European specifications, totally just perception or just different definitions, but the US 2014 MB GLK 250 BT sounds a tad bit more toward diesels of "old" than any of the (my) 3 VW TDI's, all of which ARE older! But if you just listen to newer versus diesels of old, they don't sound anything like them. TMI: compression ratio of 25 to 1 gives the marbles in the can/ "diesel" note vs 19/16 to 1 CR- more "gasser" car like- CR 9.5& less to 1.
Having said that, one of the major US diesel complaints is that a diesel car sound like... a diesel. With European diesels in Germany being at the say 60% or whatever percent it is, a diesel that sounds like a diesel would probably get a European DAH?!
I am guessing because you have a smaller & European TDI, that it will be easy to match if not best 35 to 38 MPG.
Talking head on a business news channel was very positive about the mid sized diesel GM (Canyon/Colorado) truck. he projected sales of 100,000 units, 10% probably diesels, even though it costs $3700 more. One of his parting shots or was that the big three were all trying to jump back into the segment.
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2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
So IF $10,000 is chump change to you, all I can say is I salute you ! So do you pal around with (environmental hypocrites like) DiCaprio & Gore?
Is it your opinion ? Yes! Go ahead and spend MORE! You are the perfect example !
@ today's prices gassers cost $500. per year (15,000 miles) more! Over 12 years/180,000 miles that is $ 6,000 !
You must be using a POTUS/Congressional calculator!? It is taking out about $450-$400 per year before it gives you the answer of $50. To $100. ?
VW diesel emissions investigation widened to include other brands (theguardian.com)
German Probe Found Indications of Elevated Diesel Pollution (Bloomberg)
The more fun question is what if they find that these Fords, BMWs and Mercedes are dumping more emissions than permitted but there's no evidence of cheating going on? Would kind of make VW's mea culpa a bit less meaningful if the non-cheaters can't comply either.
"We are not building Passats with TDI engines at this time, but as we are in the middle of the ramp-up of the production volume, it is no problem to adjust the mix to accommodate this change," company spokesman Scott Wilson said."
So it's more than obvious and VW has acknowledged, that it will take a longer ( more years) timeline to get to 850,000 units in US market ! On (projected) 2015 sales (17.5M) that's app 5% from 2.5% 2014 MY. ( app 435,500 units) Diesel sales of 23% ( app 100,625 ) are really internal measures.
So if I were an other than VW current diesel OEM, I'd be working overtime to get as many units and percentages of diesels that I made into the US marketplaces ! The 800# diesel gorilla just got time out! ? Some examples that comes to mind: RAM TDI, Nissan Titan, Chevrolet Colorado/GMC Canyon, MB, BMW, etc,.
So to me, this portends a GROWTH in the diesel pvf, NOT the death!
Does any carmaker do that? I see that the 2015 Chevy Cruze diesel is $4,000 more.
I kinda thought this was going to happen. What a PR disaster this VW mess has been for diesel car manufacturers.
So again, if $4,800 is chump change to you... ISY ! $ 4,800/$ 2.53 will buy my 40 mpg 2009 Jetta TDI 75,889 miles of commuting!
Well yes, I have already answered that many times! ?
Two observations for the premium: 1.Chevy is not really serious about upping it's diesel percentage from (a very obscure reading app ) 1.5% or less.
2. They are a little more interested in either making higher profit (money) or still figuring out how to get the price down.
I've had zero issues (over 14 years) getting diesel's for close to or @ gasser prices. It remains to be seen when VW gets its diesels back into the US markets, what they will do with its price differentials.
I can't even make this stuff up !
The Volkswagen Scandal Spreads to Iconic U.S. Carmakers
http://news.yahoo.com/volkswagen-scandal-spreads-iconic-u-181738005.html
My take??...
My little brother that I spent a couple days with in Las Vegas is moving from Tampa to Puerto Rico where he is a partner in a sail boat charter business. He sold his M3 BMW and his wife is selling her X5. We drove around in the Touareg and they loved it. They would like to buy a used diesel X5 in PR. The price of diesel is less than gas. Today diesel is $2.11 and RUG $2.45. Import duties make taking a vehicle to PR very expensive.
http://www.globalpetrolprices.com/diesel_prices/
In either case, what I see when I read a headline like this is, "Watch your taxes go down the drain even faster!"
Frankly, I think they are going about this all wrong. Do they want the emissions standards to be a representation of how much a vehicle emits in the real world? Okay, fine. Set a standard and an acceptable variance range. Then, put the onus on the auto manufacturers to comply with the regulations without the EPA doing up-front testing and certification. Instead, do random on-road vehicle audits. If the audit results in a failing grade for that model (this means that an extrapolated X percent of the model fleet exceeds the standard by X percent), hit the manufacturer with a fine (based on extrapolation) and require model compliance or 100% buyback within twelve months.
Audits may occur at any time within the first five model years of age; a failed audit of one model year automatically results in an audit on subsequent model years. The end.
What this means is that the cost of enforcement goes down dramatically for the public, and the risk to the manufacturers for "cheating" goes way, way up because the only way you skate is if your model doesn't happen to be selected for audit within those five years. However, if it is (and there is a good chance that it will), and the mfg was intentionally not complying, the astronomical cost us outweighs any potential benefit (e.g., noncompliance over five years * fine * buyback or fix = Ouchies). No drivetrain or model choices become a scapegoat, and the EPA is then out of the babysitting (or strangling) business.
This has not gone unnoticed by the buying public. No someone like gagrice is also in it for the driving experience and the MPG he gets for the size of the vehicle he owns. These are significant factors beyond MPG.
Again, all you have to do is take out the diesel premium ( if you insisted on paying it) , add back in your potential resale value, and take it from there! Easy formulas! The #'s will obviously change. Or maybe that is NOT obvious?
I mean really if I tell you that diesel over here is now 2.53 or what is the anti diesel agenda that that reported price has to hold for 7 years /70,000 miles? Come on guy, you as well as I know that can change in an hours time!
Again I'm glad that you are agreeing with me that there are other significant factors besides MPG in diesel selection ! I have again been saying this all along! Indeed it has been boringly consistent !
And yeah, it was your post that I was calculating from:
"If you go back to some of my posts, I use the MB's 22 mpg versus 35 mpg (like model) "
What I was trying to point out is that no matter how you cut it, on NEW cars of the same make/model, one gas, one diesel, you'll save about $100 a year.
Factoring in the premium one pays for the diesel engine is a logical thing to do. That's money actually spent.
"resale value" after 186,000 miles is pretty speculative, don't you think?
Now if the diesel engine costs the same as the gas engine, then you can make your savings about $350-400 a year. Not bad...not great, but not bad.
Is resale value speculative after 186,000 miles? No, I do not think that! I have done 6 or so cars like that, most of them gassers! ( actually more like 200,000 to 250,000 miles! )
The $ 10,000 on the MB GLK 250 BT is app $833 per year! 15,000 miles 12 years 180,000 miles. @ $2.59 USLD @ 35mpg buys us 11,257 miles commuting. As been said, more than once and by more than one person, the GLK 250 BT is minus - $500. cheaper than the gas model.
No doubt about that. Just the higher priced diesel has chased many a buyer away. I never recommend a diesel to friends and family. They are not for the unwashed masses. Quite frankly I don't want to have the diesel pumps blocked by them.
For myself it is so nice to use Gas Buddy and map out the cheapest stations for diesel. The trip this week to Las Vegas. I filled at a Union 76 station about 100 miles from home that had the cheapest price around. Right on Interstate 215. Drove the 250 miles to LV. Out to Hoover dam and some other sites. Then headed home. I already knew Brawley had the best price on our back road trip home. 635 miles on that tank with 70+ miles in reserve.
Traveling US 95 from LV to Blythe is two lane when you hit the CA border. Harry Reid took care of his voters. That 60 mile section of US 95 through his home town of Searchlight is all beautiful 4 lane, 75 MPH. When you hit the two lane and get behind trucks cruising along at 65 MPH, that VW TDI Torque is great 65-90 is very quick. I could never do that with the V8 gasser in the Sequoia. What a slug that was.
To me the overall driving experience trumps the difference in initial price. If I wanted a cheap POC, I could buy 4 Yaris for what I spent for the Touareg. Price is important to a person's budget. Not to what they want in a vehicle. I cannot believe someone that wants a Shelby GT500 would be happy driving a Scion. I got the best 4wheel drive SUV diesel in it's class according to C&D, that did the comparison, for less than any of the competition. Making the cost difference in fuel irrelevant, as they all got decent mileage.
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2014-jeep-grand-cherokee-summit-ecodiesel-4x4-vs-2013-volkswagen-touareg-tdi-2013-mercedes-benz-ml350-bluetec-4matic-2013-porsche-cayenne-diesel-2013-bmw-x5-xdrive35d-final-scoring-performance-data-and-complete-specs-page-7
I'm wondering at when the 2016 model year will diesels be brought back on US markets?
Nobody called for the end of gasoline because GM/Ford/Chrysler/Toyota/etc., etc. got caught cheating! In fact, we bailed out GM/Chrysler not too long ago, despite a long history & catalog of past cheating "sins".
What's this, a country-western stand by your man kind a song?
Nobody is calling for the end to EV or hybrids etc., because we are going to commence dirty mining practices! (by proxy-China). Indeed in about 30 years, we will see very clearly that we can thank the AM vets for doing the war in Afghanistan for rare earth minerals!
So yes, my prediction: it will take fully 30 years to achieve 5% EV PVF. 13.5 M units of 2013 NHTSA PVF. 269.3M. Hopefully by then we will figure out multiple propulsion sources is one of the better ways.
@ruking1, your stuff about the opium wars was cut - getting way too far off topic in here.
If one is a fan, farther north, Patagonia has an outlet in the sticks of Reno,NV.
"Up until now we have found no fraudulent defeat device in vehicles of other brands," the magazine quoted Mary Nichols, chair of the California Air Resources Board (CARB), as saying in an interview published on Tuesday."
To read the plethora the articles, I don't think they really understand how, why, where it works!
It's the 30d, which sounds like a truck at cold idle. It'll be interesting to see how it consumes fuel.
The X3 with a bigger diesel than ours should be fun to drive. They claim 5.9 seconds to 62 MPH. We'll make an SUV fan out of you yet. Keep us posted on the ride.
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2015 Subaru Outback 3.6R / 2024 Kia Sportage Hybrid SX Prestige
Slow diesel news day! ULSD @ $2. 53, PUG @ $ 2.69 = 79.8%, 90.3% more where Fintail is.
Having said that, one of the major US diesel complaints is that a diesel car sound like... a diesel. With European diesels in Germany being at the say 60% or whatever percent it is, a diesel that sounds like a diesel would probably get a European DAH?!
I am guessing because you have a smaller & European TDI, that it will be easy to match if not best 35 to 38 MPG.
Talking head on a business news channel was very positive about the mid sized diesel GM (Canyon/Colorado) truck. he projected sales of 100,000 units, 10% probably diesels, even though it costs $3700 more. One of his parting shots or was that the big three were all trying to jump back into the segment.