What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

gagrice

houdini1 said:

carboy21 said:

xwesx said:

ruking1 said:

My prediction: it will become overwhelmingly apparent NON compliance is the RULE, not the exception, on the 97 % to 95% gasser side!

I've said it before: It seems that the "testing" is going where it hasn't gone before, and outside of the parameters to which the Mgfrs were required to comply. Namely, lab testing is just that: Lab testing. If the regulations require lab testing compliance, then real world numbers are irrelevant. Unless the vehicle was rigged to cheat the test, then whether or not that same vehicle "exceeds standards" on the road doesn't matter from a compliance standpoint.

So, the regulatory agencies have to figure out what they want, but they need to recognize that changing the rules after-the-fact doesn't mean vehicles built to comply with the original rules are now suddenly out of compliance with those rules.

Witch hunt.

Shifting the goal posts at the behest of the EV/ Hybrid/ Obama .gov

Not saying I agree, but I can certainly see the logic. The cars were built to pass the EPA lab testing. They passed the test. Now EPA is calling it cheating, but VW could say no, we simply built the cars to pass the lab tests, as that was the benchmark. If they wanted the cars to pass real world tests, then this should have been stipulated. So VW has not "confessed" to cheating, they only confessed to building the cars to pass the lab tests.

It seems like the only testing the EPA has ever done is in the lab. Safety tests, mpg tests, clean air tests, etc. and it is common knowledge that these lab tests results are all usually different than what happens in the real world. Now suddenly, and after the fact, they want VW diesels ONLY the pass real world tests. Something about this has a bad smell, and I don't mean diesel fumes.

If the EPA wants to make a change to real world testing then do so NOW...but don't attempt to backdate the effective date by several years, now that they know their tests are faulty and useless. A good case could be made that the EPA is in a panic because their faulty tests have been exposed and they are using the time honored tactic of pointing the finger at someone else to cover for their own incompetence. I can see where a good attorney could have a field day with this.

Interesting thinking. I have to agree with you. Everything is based on passing smog tests. We have thousands of big gas and diesel PU trucks on our streets with straight pipes cleaning out the soot on a regular basis. I have never heard of a road check stopping and testing trucks for emissions. Only every two years the state of CA forces you to bring in your vehicle to pass their test. It makes no difference if you pulled all the smog stuff off when you left the smog station and stashed it in the garage for two years.

carboy21

gagrice said:

I think it is clear as several have stated. The whole Diesel witch hunt was started by ICCT. Their reason for being is to promote EV and Hybrid transportation. With John German leading the charge. They started by picking the low fruit which was the slightly high NOx from VW TDIs. Be assured they are going after all emissions in their quest for Zero emissions from cars. According to the BBC article there is a lot of cheating when it comes to CO2 in the real World. EVs don't sell well because the high cost of components, so make ICE vehicles more expensive to level the playing field. Twofold benefit, you get rid of the low priced cars and the drivers that cannot afford a $50k compliant vehicle. John German says: He said while VW is in the spotlight, the entire auto industry needs to look at emissions in general. "There's an increasing gap between CO2 measured on test procedures (across the industry) and that reported by people in the real world." "Manufacturers are exploiting flexibility, tolerances and loopholes in the regulations to be able to show lower emissions on the official test cycles, but they aren't necessarily being implemented in the real world." http://www.theicct.org/

University of Virginia or WV ? research team has been funded overtly/ covertly by the EV:Hybrid lobby .
Why pick on diesel cars only ?
VW diesels were getting popular with the average buyers who could not afford the BMW , MB  diesels . 
And the mileage the Jetta /Passat TDI were getting in the real world were a threat to the Priuses of this country . 

Mr_Shiftright

No OTHER automakers seems to have had trouble meeting the standards. This is like blaming the cops for enforcing unreasonable standards of breaking and entering on criminals.

VW---guilty as charged and caught red-handed. They deflated the football.

carboy21 said:

They led the EPA to set unattainable emissions standards for diesels , which would have resulted in emasculating the diesels or jacking up the final price by using Urea injection systems, thus making them as expensive as BMW and MB, to whom they would be forced to pay royalties.

Passat TDI == $25 K

BMW 328 d == $35k

cdnpinhead

carboy21 said:

He is arguing only for the sake of argument .;)

Imagine!

It's a core competency on this board (and several others, for that matter).

ruking1

Mr_Shiftright said:

No OTHER automakers seems to have had trouble meeting the standards. This is like blaming the cops for enforcing unreasonable standards of breaking and entering on criminals.

VW---guilty as charged and caught red-handed. They deflated the football.

carboy21 said:

They led the EPA to set unattainable emissions standards for diesels , which would have resulted in emasculating the diesels or jacking up the final price by using Urea injection systems, thus making them as expensive as BMW and MB, to whom they would be forced to pay royalties.

Passat TDI == $25 K

BMW 328 d == $35k

We have a POTUS that has done EXACTLY that for @ least both of his terms, that we know of?

The punishment was invalidated in FEDERAL Court! ("football gate" for those who like to be confused)

For the record, OJ was guilty! But equally as obvious, that wasn't my call to make!

gagrice

No OTHER automakers seems to have had trouble meeting the standards. This is like blaming the cops for enforcing unreasonable standards of breaking and entering on criminals.


What other automakers did University of WV test on the road for NOx, or CO or CO2 etc? Remember the guise was to see how VW got such a clean bill of health. I would say it will be open season on all automakers very soon. Gassers are already shown in the EU to be cheating. EV and Hybrid sales are stale and the gubmint does not like that. Looks like the auto industry may be making the legal profession the direction to go.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/11/03/vw-emissions-irregularities-gas-mileage-fuel-economy/75101432/

Mr_Shiftright

Fair enough...we'll see if anything more develops about cheating by other automakers.

PLEASE NO POLITICS that aren't relevant to automobiles! Thank you.

ruking1

Mr_Shiftright said:

Fair enough...we'll see if anything more develops about cheating by other automakers.

PLEASE NO POLITICS that aren't relevant to automobiles! Thank you.

They can start by giving that same West Virginia testing facility the contract to test some of the holier than thou gas hybrids, PU trucks, etc. They should also publish all the tested parameters not just the NOX like they did for the three diesels. As I remember, they did not publish the standard,aka, .07G/mile.

It was not me that politicized and weaponized EPA /CARB!

Having said that, they just today announced disapproval of the Keystone XL pipeline after seven years! The good news being one can resubmit the application (for final disapproval in 7 more years) ? IF the US trade unions don't know which side the bread is buttered on , their loss!

The smartest thing that Trans Canadian can do is to run the pipelines (in CN) west to DEEP water ports in BC and sell directly to any world customer directly. It would really be ironic if y in the future, the US wanted to connect to their E/W pipeline!

Mr_Shiftright

Ok, just remember that this is the diesel car topic. Topic drifting too far off course often kills discussions.

Here's an interesting discussion from the Int'l Business Times that discusses the EPA involvement

Is the EPA Partly To Blame?

I think the points in the article are well taken.

ruking1

I actually agree ! The real tragedy is these are the role models, POLiCY makers! Folks should always do the right thing!

Too funny ! "Chicken Littles" I can't even make this stuff up!

More realistically, I sure wish I caught that minus- 150 point (drop) ! That would translate to 42 MB GLK 250BT's! (1 instead of several )

stever

houdini1 said:

Not saying I agree, but I can certainly see the logic. The cars were built to pass the EPA lab testing. They passed the test.

Actually the test specifically prohibited cheat devices and without the cheat device (the code software), they failed the lab test.

It is common to build for the test - that's why the Insurance Institute keeps changing their crash tests around. Helps keep the engineers honest.

And pray tell, now that VW has admitted to the world that they cheated, how would they be able to deny that in court? They've already moved beyond the conviction phase and we're in the penalty phase now.

(A couple of posts personally attacking other members have been removed. If you can't argue without name-calling, you need to find a different forum).

ruking1

TDI goodwill program!?

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/11/06/vw-tdi-goodwill-program-report/

How does this affect YOUR resale values??? Takata.....mini grenade?

..." following an announcement from the US National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, which announced up to $200 million in penalties against Takata and criticised the Tokyo-based firm over a years-long deception over the safety of its airbags."...

http://news.yahoo.com/nissan-dumps-takata-inflators-honda-toyota-053203690.html#of

houdini1

stever said:

houdini1 said:

Not saying I agree, but I can certainly see the logic. The cars were built to pass the EPA lab testing. They passed the test.

Actually the test specifically prohibited cheat devices and without the cheat device (the code software), they failed the lab test.

It is common to build for the test - that's why the Insurance Institute keeps changing their crash tests around. Helps keep the engineers honest.

And pray tell, now that VW has admitted to the world that they cheated, how would they be able to deny that in court? They've already moved beyond the conviction phase and we're in the penalty phase now.

(A couple of posts personally attacking other members have been removed. If you can't argue without name-calling, you need to find a different forum).

I've never seen software defined as a device. I guess it would be one of those questions that would depend on what the definition of "is" is. At any rate I am just pointing out that in the world of today, any competent attorney can mix black and white and come out with grey. In the long run, this won't help VW, but it won't hurt them as much as most think. Some sort of reasonable accommodation will be agreed to.

gagrice

Mr_Shiftright said:

Ok, just remember that this is the diesel car topic. Topic drifting too far off course often kills discussions.

Here's an interesting discussion from the Int'l Business Times that discusses the EPA involvement

Is the EPA Partly To Blame?

I think the points in the article are well taken.

I thought this an interesting statement:

Still, Tyson Slocum, director of the energy program at consumer advocacy group Public Citizen, said it’s unfair “to claim the EPA is responsible for a very sophisticated deception.”

So the EPA are not technically able to test for the standards they set? Is that what they are saying? My suggestion would be for the EPA to hire an unbiased entity like Edmunds to do the on road tests of the various models they buy and review. They could rent or purchase the test equipment needed for on road testing. This would remove it from the political realm to the automotive industry.

stever

I thought the West Virginia university entity was unbiased? But how do you hold someone to a standard that has never-ending variables? You can control for most of that stuff in a lab. Sometimes the lab results need to be tweaked to mirror the real world more realistically, and the EPA did that with the MPG testing.

@houdini1, re "I've never seen software defined as a device."

Wiki says a defeat device is "any apparatus that unduly reduces the effectiveness of emissions control systems under conditions a vehicle may reasonably be expected to experience."

Your computer software won't do squat unless you move a mouse or hit the keyboard or swipe the screen. My guess is that the VWs sensors triggered the software to run the cheat code and that action falls under the definition.

And yeah, surprised that Takata hasn't gone banko. They seem to be way more toast than VW.

gagrice

I thought the West Virginia university entity was unbiased?

It probably is. However they probably do not buy new vehicles of various types to review. Edmunds & CR along with other groups buy and test cars, suvs and trucks. Might as well pay them a bit to test emissions with their normal testing. Like how much NOx will a vehicle put out in a 0-60 MPH run? Bet they all push the limits on those runs.

stever

Could work - those gizmos seem to be getting smaller all the time.

gagrice

stever said:

Could work - those gizmos seem to be getting smaller all the time.

How hard would it be to have a sensor that can be stuck in the tailpipe measuring the various emissions. With a USB cable tied to a laptop and the OBD2. Just record all your emissions for a month.

ruking1

stever said:

Could work - those gizmos seem to be getting smaller all the time.

Cheaper, relatively also!

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/do-inexpensive-performance-meters-work-feature

I'm sure emissions measuring is a little more specific, & more expensive.

carboy21

gagrice said:

stever said:

Could work - those gizmos seem to be getting smaller all the time.

How hard would it be to have a sensor that can be stuck in the tailpipe measuring the various emissions. With a USB cable tied to a laptop and the OBD2. Just record all your emissions for a month.

If they really implemented this testing in California, no one would be driving any trucks , semi rigs and most gas cars , let alone diesel cars.

This whole emission thingy is a left wing , nimby , greenie weeny sponsored boondoggle to promote the flagging sales of EV and Hybrids., at great costs to the consumers.

Instead of paying $25 k for cars , they want all of us to spend $35-40 k for the exotic EV cars.

stever

ruking1 said:

stever said:

Could work - those gizmos seem to be getting smaller all the time.

Cheaper, relatively also!

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/do-inexpensive-performance-meters-work-feature

I'm sure emissions measuring is a little more specific, & more expensive.

The W. VA research rig was a bit involved.

stever

carboy21 said:

If they really implemented this testing in California, no one would be driving any trucks , semi rigs and most gas cars , let alone diesel cars.

This whole emission thingy is a left wing , nimby , greenie weeny sponsored boondoggle to promote the flagging sales of EV and Hybrids., at great costs to the consumers.

Instead of paying $25 k for cars , they want all of us to spend $35-40 k for the exotic EV cars.

One picture is worth a thousand pontifications.

LA, then and now:

ruking1

A lot of folks have a hard time with what you plainly see/ understand and describe! Any call to kill gasoline is a call to kill ULSD & vice versa. So Tesla wants to replace the diesel CUVs with one starting off @ $130,000. USD.

cdnpinhead

carboy21 said:

This whole emission thingy is a left wing, nimby, greenie weeny sponsored boondoggle . . .

Well put.

However, it seems to work every time it's tried.

There appear to be more of them than us. I'm old. I care much less than I used to, but I still watch the freak parade go by (credit to Imus).

stever

I'm old too. Old enough to remember Nixon signing the Clean Air Act.

(The "first" one, not the one G.H.W. Bush signed in 1990. Via jordanmfriedman.wordpress.com)

Couple of real left wingers LOL.

iluvmysephia1

Was he all energetic about it with that...Nixon smile glowing?

carboy21

stever said:

I'm old too. Old enough to remember Nixon signing the Clean Air Act.

(The "first" one, not the one G.H.W. Bush signed in 1990. Via jordanmfriedman.wordpress.com)

Couple of real left wingers LOL.

Clean Air Act is fine as long as it is not used to selectively ensnare cost effective and high mileage diesel engines while giving free pass to all other polluters.
Neither is it ok to use it to promote the expensive EV and hybrid vehicles at the expense of diesels.
Clinton and Bush did not dream that their legislation would be manipulated to benefit the EV lobby by unfair means .

stever

Diesels have gotten their share of promotional "green" subsidies too. The big diesel subsidies were in the EU and India of course.

U.S. taxpayers duped into shelling out $51 million in green subsidies for 'clean' VW vehicles (LA Times)

houdini1

stever said:

Diesels have gotten their share of promotional "green" subsidies too. The big diesel subsidies were in the EU and India of course.

U.S. taxpayers duped into shelling out $51 million in green subsidies for 'clean' VW vehicles (LA Times)

Yes, too bad we don't have a competent EPA to protect us from things like this. They are too busy monitoring mud holes, watching out for snail darters, and accidentally flooding and polluting rivers. OOPS !!

carboy21

stever said:

Diesels have gotten their share of promotional "green" subsidies too. The big diesel subsidies were in the EU and India of course.

U.S. taxpayers duped into shelling out $51 million in green subsidies for 'clean' VW vehicles (LA Times)

Diesel subsidies in EU are due to the extremely high price of gasoline.
Diesel is subsidized in India only for the agricultural sector and gasoline is also highly expensive.
Ninety seven percent of cars in USA are gasoline and they emit greenhouse gases causing global warming.
Three percent of cars in USA are diesel and they cause air pollution in LA LA Land and asthma !!!!

fintail

I'd like to know the EV and hybrid subsidies. Just offshore the pollution, then it doesn't exist! The me generation, I guess. Heck, Tesla sales alone are probably more, and are given to a socio-economic group who doesn't exactly need more help, having received almost all of it since Reagan was in office.

The current crop of political candidates on both sides makes Nixon look like Leon Trotsky.

elias

Everyone including Joe Six Pack now knows now that it's more green/planet-saving/pro-USA to drive a 20 mpg gasser than a 40 mpg diesel.
I feel bad for modern greenies who are stuck with VW cheatermobiles. They are embarassed to drive their cars and were so very misguided by the lying liar pro-diesel VW/etc crowd.

ruking1, what is your evidence/analysis that USA emission standards are based on junk science? I do believe that some USA standards may have dropped too much too fast and that CARB is very annoying. But it's fun to be able to breathe in US cities, and it seems like americans preference for gas cars is why we can breathe clean air here. The Euro and Asia countries have miscalculated horribly about diesels, and the residents are paying the price with lung disease.

Count me as a contrarian greenie compared with mainstream greenies.
I prefer the OGs.
The Original Greenies: Richard M. Nixon and the Green Party from the 1980s.

cardude, as for the area 51 secret heavy-water hydrogen car research, that's an old joke. really good secret there, we've only heard that nonsense secret about 1000 times over 50 years.

Can we turn Dr. Henry Lee loose on the VW cheating cheaterism scandal?
If the urea tank don't fit, you must acquit?

btw, if anyone wants to see software referred to as a device, there are thousands of software patents available for your reading pleasure online.

carboy21

cardude, as for the area 51 secret heavy-water hydrogen car research, that's an old joke. really good secret there, we've only heard that nonsense secret about 1000 times over 50 years.


They even got an Alien spaceship there . They used it in the movie "Independence Day "

carboy21

The Euro and Asia countries have miscalculated horribly about diesels, and the residents are paying the price with lung disease.

This is the price you have to pay when you tax the gasoline at 200% and then expect citizens to use gasoline for their cars.
Remove this extortionate tax on gasoline and diesel consumption will fall.

You don't need an Einstein to deduce this logic .

ruking1

fintail said:

I'd like to know the EV and hybrid subsidies. Just offshore the pollution, then it doesn't exist! The me generation, I guess. Heck, Tesla sales alone are probably more, and are given to a socio-economic group who doesn't exactly need more help, having received almost all of it since Reagan was in office.

The current crop of political candidates on both sides makes Nixon look like Leon Trotsky.

I am glad to hear ALL are burl's in your saddle.

No less a democrat ( moneyman) then Warren Buffett, (what he now 85 years old?) says that that EV/hybrid and the emphasis on the solar/wind for electrical generation, only makes sense with (MASSIVE) tax credits, write offs, special rulings, government force etc., etc., & crony capitalism !

Of course in the meantime, shipping COAL and providing the mobile oil pipeline (with all the above advantages) are not bad bitneses to be in!

Aren't we all now glad the Keystone Pipeline got its disapproval after 7 years or more?

Mr_Shiftright

I think all this discussion is going to become irrelevant in the near future, because we are all going to witness the utter destruction of the TDI market in America, and possibly the decline if not the complete collapse of the diesel car market in America. And I don't think any invisible demons are required to explain how all this happened. VW betrayed the trust of its customers. If I were a diesel car owner as I was when I first started this topic, I know where my anger would be directed at this point in time.

ruking1

I don't think many folks were fans to begin with! (if 95 to 97% of the PVF are gassers)

carboy21

I agree VW cheated and deserves to be punished.
But I am not convinced that diesel is the cause or was the cause for all that smog in Los Angeles and China when the number of diesels cars were a very miniscule fraction of the number of gasser cars. In Europe diesel has been rampantly promoted because gasoline has been taxed almost 200% of the refining costs.So Europeans wanted higher mileage cars then gasoline cars to save money at the pump
Diesel has been made a scapegoat by the EV/Hybrid lobby and the leftist crusaders.
I would buy TDI any day if they sell it again without neutering its perpormance. I don't beleive in the fake research by the leftists just like the fake research on the global warming by the communists in Oxford/Cambridge University.
We need to find out who are the backers of John German of the ICCT who tested the VWs at WV University.
Follow the money trail and it will lead to the EV/Hybrid lobby

ruking1

carboy21 said:

I agree VW cheated and deserves to be punished.
But I am not convinced that diesel is the cause or was the cause for all that smog in Los Angeles and China when the number of diesels cars were a very miniscule fraction of the number of gasser cars. In Europe diesel has been rampantly promoted because gasoline has been taxed almost 200% of the refining costs.So Europeans wanted higher mileage cars then gasoline cars to save money at the pump
Diesel has been made a scapegoat by the EV/Hybrid lobby and the leftist crusaders.
I would buy TDI any day if they sell it again without neutering its perpormance. I don't beleive in the fake research by the leftists just like the fake research on the global warming by the communists in Oxford/Cambridge University.

If they were gasoline cheaters, this (diesel) witch hunt be a TOTAL nonissue!

I'm sure the next 1.5 to 7.0 earthquake will be blamed on VW & ULSD use.

On a slow diesel day note , my goal for the 2009 VW Jetta TDI: another 180,000 miles after gulag/ communist reeducation camp procedures or app 310,000 miles. As long as it passes current CARB biannual smog inspections (the strictest in the US , if not the world) , it's good to go! So even if I get ZERO $$for it, the cpmd : depreciation will be a tad under 6.5 cents. Lol, the IRS could offer me another tax CREDIT for the sale of the 2009 VW TDI!

If I got adjusted market value for the 2003 Jetta TDI, it would be at six cents .Yup life is cruel!

Mr_Shiftright

You don't have to follow the money to some secret hybrid and EV lobby. The lobby is actually the American consumer who has chosen to spend his money on his preferences. The free market dictates that if you can't convince people to buy your product, you die. VW was the champion for the diesel car market in America, and the champion fell on his face unfortunately.

If Toyota has been the subject of the scandal, could one argue that the "diesel lobby" was the cause of that? I don't think so.

Moreover, if you think about it, the gasoline engine and diesel engine are actually allies and children of the same parent, and the and the EV and hybrid market are, logically, a threat to both of them. To consumers, diesel engines are an old technology. That is and  has always been their problem when trying to compete with cars of the future. Most consumers see them as just an odd form of gasoline engine similar say to a Rotary engine or Miller cycle engine. The latter two didn't make much headway either in the market. 

carboy21

Just wait till a few Lithium car batteries blow up or incinerate few car and their owners and then we will see the EV/Hybrid meet their same fate as the Diesels are now.

By the way unless EV cars run on electrified tram lines or tram wires , they will only be good for the local city commute. Now don't tell me about Tesla cars. Everyone is not Elon Musk or Bill Gates or Warren Buffet to afford one or more for their family.

Diesels will come back with a vengeance, Mr Shiftright and I will be here to tell you "I told you "

fintail

Today I saw a gagrice dream car:



And something I like:



Both forbidden fruit in Murka. But if I want an 8000lb V10 SUV, that's OK.

Diesel diesel everywhere here in Germany, and I am not aware of any concrete data showing Germans have more "lung disease" than Americans.

fintail

Unfortunately, legitimate markets don't give EV tax breaks to people in the socio-economic bracket who can afford a Tesla. That's not the consumer at work, other than the typical American temporarily embarrassed millionaire who won't protest it.

Luckily MB diesel people are old school diehards and probably aren't paying much attention to the scandal, maybe those will survive.

Mr_Shiftright said:

You don't have to follow the money to some secret hybrid and EV lobby. The lobby is actually the American consumer who has chosen to spend his money on his preferences. The free market dictates that if you can't convince people to buy your product, you die. VW was the champion for the diesel car market in America, and the champion fell on his face unfortunately.

If Toyota has been the subject of the scandal, could one argue that the "diesel lobby" was the cause of that? I don't think so.

Moreover, if you think about it, the gasoline engine and diesel engine are actually allies and children of the same parent, and the and the EV and hybrid market are, logically, a threat to both of them. To consumers, diesel engines are an old technology. That is and  has always been their problem when trying to compete with cars of the future. Most consumers see them as just an odd form of gasoline engine similar say to a Rotary engine or Miller cycle engine. The latter two didn't make much headway either in the market. 

fintail

Buffet is a piece of work sometimes, but he isn't always wrong. Some say the subsidies are what the consumer wants, a realist might say the consumers just lack the ability to revolt en masse against crony capitalism and trickle down nonsense.

What gets me most is the greenie weenies who turn a blind eye to the offshoring of pollution, while lecturing others about energy use. Then again, there's a demographic out there long known for hypocrisy and lack of self-awareness.

ruking1 said:

Of course in the meantime, shipping COAL and providing the mobile oil pipeline (with all the above advantages) are not bad bitneses to be in!

Aren't we all now glad the Keystone Pipeline got its disapproval after 7 years or more?

houdini1

Mr_Shiftright said:

I think all this discussion is going to become irrelevant in the near future, because we are all going to witness the utter destruction of the TDI market in America, and possibly the decline if not the complete collapse of the diesel car market in America. And I don't think any invisible demons are required to explain how all this happened. VW betrayed the trust of its customers. If I were a diesel car owner as I was when I first started this topic, I know where my anger would be directed at this point in time.

I think you are getting a little too excited there shifty. VW cut some corners and they will pay for that. The benefactors will MB and BMW, and maybe Mazda, as their diesels will take up the slack until VW recovers. Diesels have a place here and will only get better. Cool, rational thinking, not hysteria, usually prevails.

Mr_Shiftright

Well then the Wall Street Journal is hysterical, because they predict the same thing. They think TDI will be gone in a year and I agree with them, although it may take a bit longer. The wound is mortal IMO and I see no reason at this point to be optimistic.

As for the entire diesel car market to fold up, yeah, that might be a bit hysterical, but not out of the realm of possibility. I've lived long enough to see entire segments of the auto/motorcycle market go POOF! in a real hurry.

the idea of 'anti-diesel" lobbies make no sense to me, because most automakers build hybrids, diesels and electrics--so they can't be funding this mysterious lobby.

As for environmental groups, it's not their job to "clean up" anything. Their job is to raise awareness and to fight political and corporate corruption. Cleaning up is the job of the governments around the globe. I think most Americans completely missed what the Keystone fight was all about.

If therefore, one could make a case that some so-called greenie lobby brought down VW, well then, job well done in that case. No supporter of diesel cars would want that level of corporate corruption representing their case for cleaner diesels becoming a success in the USA.

Michaell

houdini1 said:

I think all this discussion is going to become irrelevant in the near future, because we are all going to witness the utter destruction of the TDI market in America, and possibly the decline if not the complete collapse of the diesel car market in America. And I don't think any invisible demons are required to explain how all this happened. VW betrayed the trust of its customers. If I were a diesel car owner as I was when I first started this topic, I know where my anger would be directed at this point in time.

I think you are getting a little too excited there shifty. VW cut some corners and they will pay for that. The benefactors will MB and BMW, and maybe Mazda, as their diesels will take up the slack until VW recovers. Diesels have a place here and will only get better. Cool, rational thinking, not hysteria, usually prevails.

But why has Mazda delayed releasing their diesel here in the US?

houdini1

Michaell said:

houdini1 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

I think all this discussion is going to become irrelevant in the near future, because we are all going to witness the utter destruction of the TDI market in America, and possibly the decline if not the complete collapse of the diesel car market in America. And I don't think any invisible demons are required to explain how all this happened. VW betrayed the trust of its customers. If I were a diesel car owner as I was when I first started this topic, I know where my anger would be directed at this point in time.

I think you are getting a little too excited there shifty. VW cut some corners and they will pay for that. The benefactors will MB and BMW, and maybe Mazda, as their diesels will take up the slack until VW recovers. Diesels have a place here and will only get better. Cool, rational thinking, not hysteria, usually prevails.

But why has Mazda delayed releasing their diesel here in the US?

Because the U.S. market is very important to them and they want to get it right the first time. Mazda recently stated that the VW diesel fiasco has not affected their plans for a U.S. diesel.

My take is that they are having trouble with the trade off between meeting EPA standards and retaining their reputation of being a drivers car. Zoom, Zoom.

ruking1

Mr_Shiftright said:

You don't have to follow the money to some secret hybrid and EV lobby. The lobby is actually the American consumer who has chosen to spend his money on his preferences. The free market dictates that if you can't convince people to buy your product, you die. VW was the champion for the diesel car market in America, and the champion fell on his face unfortunately.

If Toyota has been the subject of the scandal, could one argue that the "diesel lobby" was the cause of that? I don't think so.

Moreover, if you think about it, the gasoline engine and diesel engine are actually allies and children of the same parent, and the and the EV and hybrid market are, logically, a threat to both of them. To consumers, diesel engines are an old technology. That is and  has always been their problem when trying to compete with cars of the future. Most consumers see them as just an odd form of gasoline engine similar say to a Rotary engine or Miller cycle engine. The latter two didn't make much headway either in the market. 

It is not/NEVER been a secret ! So why are you saying that now it is? It is also never been a secret that Prius is one major reason Toyota can sell all the gas pu/ light trucks, suv's,CUVs mid sized to large cars in the US markets! By the way, you will probably agree, they have done a real good job!!!

The gas hybrid take rate (app 2 to 2.5%) does NOT match your narrative! EV's take rate is essentially not measurable, despite a minimum of 15 year plus ramp up time frame. Also CA state has more than once issued "King Canute" policy dictates of EV/gas hybrids to each be 15% of CA yearly sales! Bottom line both EV/gas hybrid PVF GROWTH rates are exceeded by diesels PVF "DEATH rate" @ 3 to 5% !!

carboy21

When the gassers are tested as thoroughly as the diesels were by the WV University researchers ., diesels will not appear such a culprit .Gassers are equally responsible for pollution but they get a pass.  Let there be level playing field. Yes there is an anti diesel lobby . And they are the same ones who promote EV and hybrids and the gassers . Even the gasser lobby fears  the diesel cars  as there is nothing superior about gassers compared to the diesels .

WSJ editors are  a fool to write TDIs off .