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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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Comments

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    Yes! 16 "MODERN" cargo container ships put out more pollution than ALL the WORLDS cars!! And the EPA/CARB are having (fake Senator Bernie Frank's ) verbal coronaries over (essentially) not measurable VW TDI's! This is MORE Hollywood than even Hollywood!
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    edited January 2016
    VW should buy $48 billion worth of Boeing 777 ( total 150 aircrafts ) and start an aircraft leasing company.

    Tell the Feds /EPA / CARB to go take a hike and sell the American VW to Hyundai / KIA or the venture capitalist who bought Chrysler before selling it to Fiat .
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    edited January 2016
    ruking1 said:

    Yes! 16 "MODERN" cargo container ships put out more pollution than ALL the worlds cars!! And the EPA/CARB but are having (fake Senator Bernie Frank's ) verbal coronaries over (essentially) not measurable VW TDI's! This is MORE Hollywood than even Hollywood!

    You're right, regarding sulfur emissions. The world shipping industry/regulators are moving too slowly to decrease the max bunker fuel content from 4.5% down to 0.5% in 2020 (I think). There are tighter regs near shore. That's largely an international issue, not a CARB/EPA issue. They deal with (among other things) cars, and regulation violators like VW. So they should toss out the regs because the international shipping regulators can't get their act together? I don't think so.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    texases said:

    ruking1 said:

    Yes! 16 "MODERN" cargo container ships put out more pollution than ALL the worlds cars!! And the EPA/CARB but are having (fake Senator Bernie Frank's ) verbal coronaries over (essentially) not measurable VW TDI's! This is MORE Hollywood than even Hollywood!

    You're right, regarding sulfur emissions. They're moving too slowly to decrease the max bunker fuel content from 4.5% down to 0.5% in 2020 (I think). There are tighter regs near shore. That's largely an international issue, not a CARB/EPA issue. They deal with (among other things) cars, and regulation violators like VW. So they should toss out the regs because the international shipping regulators can't get their act together? I don't think so.
    You then agree with me ! I made no case for tossing it out !I am talking about the relative scale! Fine, don't let em unload @ a US port! How'd that do yah? :You think you have economic problems now!? :D So total BS and fubar comes to mind!

    VW should not pay an outsized fine to serve as the scapegoat,& warning to the other OEMs like GM. The other OEMs have literally gotten away with murder & elaborate cover ups!

    My take VW is being persecuted because the parent company is foreign!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    It's because they fooled the authorities. These egos don't like to be tricked, as they know what is best - just ask them, they will tell you.

    VW just needs to not stall, and to seek settlement and move on. It won't be anywhere near 48BN, get it over with and work on damage contro.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    fintail said:

    It's because they fooled the authorities. These egos don't like to be tricked, as they know what is best - just ask them, they will tell you.

    VW just needs to not stall, and to seek settlement and move on. It won't be anywhere near 48BN, get it over with and work on damage contro.

    Yes! It sounds logical and reasonable to me ! Those that continue focusing on whether VW did it or not are totally behind the power curve. Whatever the EPA/CARB approved emissions corrections will do nothing & will be not measurable in the real world.

    I do have to say that a buyback (with a low cost per mile driven depreciation) would probably benefit me! If it doesn't or is not close to reasonable I can join one to many lawsuit/s. At the appropriate time ( if a good deal buyback is proferred), I will buy another TDI.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    You are familiar with the argumentative tactic known as reductio ad absurdum?

    That was a good example. B) Let's take it further. We could solve L.A.s pollution problem by killing all the inhabitants!

    Obviously, any strict regulation of cargo shipping cannot be accomplished outside of USA territorial waters. If regulations are too strict within territorial waters, then the ships will merely go to ports that have no regulation, and you and I will pay the transportation costs to ship the materials to our ports by land, thereby increasing the cost of goods and the level of local pollution by truck transport.

    What is really needed here is an alternative form of energy that is not fossil-fuel based, which is outside the scope of a topic about diesel cars.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016

    You are familiar with the argumentative tactic known as reductio ad absurdum?

    That was a good example. B) Let's take it further. We could solve L.A.s pollution problem by killing all the inhabitants!

    Obviously, any strict regulation of cargo shipping cannot be accomplished outside of USA territorial waters. If regulations are too strict within territorial waters, then the ships will merely go to ports that have no regulation, and you and I will pay the transportation costs to ship the materials to our ports by land, thereby increasing the cost of goods and the level of local pollution by truck transport.

    What is really needed here is an alternative form of energy that is not fossil-fuel based, which is outside the scope of a topic about diesel cars.

    Yes,UCB had a rhetoric major! I did take a few of those classes.

    Due to the (per 42gal barrel) refinery ratios (19gal/10 gal diesel) RUG/PUG & diesel are inexorably linked. There are other ratios, also: one being bunker oil.

    Your statement is the other side of the absurd ! Waving your magic wand & getting rid of gas and diesel cars and letting shipping still burn bunker oil, you'll still have a BIGGER/same problem ! Well I know you're not advocating electric shipping, but purely from an emissions point o view : that would be ideal

    And yes, your agreement & argument are making my case !
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    nobody would be "getting rid" of the internal combustion engine. They would die naturally, like the steam car did...IF...something better comes along.

    Rest easy---people still keep horses (a notorious methane producer by the way) , so you're okay!
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    edited January 2016

    nobody would be "getting rid" of the internal combustion engine. They would die naturally, like the steam car did...IF...something better comes along.

    Rest easy---people still keep horses (a notorious methane producer by the way) , so you're okay!

    and (objectionable content deleted) besides methane
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    Not far from home, (yup, heart of Silicon Valley) there's a ranch that supports up to 5000 head of cattle! Horse stables & trails are in the city limits, not far away!

    In Tahoe, CA, corrals are not far away. One can also hire a full( horse back) week or longer guided camping trip! When there is room, one can board ones own horses ! My daughters have gone for any number of way shorter horse back trips.

    I guess I didn't give them enough pony rides when they were kids ? :D
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,685
    edited January 2016
    ruking1 said:

    I guess I didn't give them enough pony rides when they were kids ? :D

    Don't feel badly about that; no parent does (give enough pony rides). :D

    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    Otherwise it is very slow diesel News Day !

    ULSD $2.05, RUG $ 2.27, PUG $ 2.49.

    But I did get my first tank of ULSD on VW ! ( 488 miles for 12.4 gals for $25.66, it is still getting almost 40 mpg for some reason?)

    THANKS VW !
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited January 2016
    $3.19 for diesel in Petaluma CA but only $2.32 in my neighborhood. Such wild variations and only 15 miles apart.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    Yeah, my daughter's rolling her eyes in Georgia @ $ 1.77 ULSD. She is back to RUG @ $ 1.68! As good as the 2004 Honda Civic has been for us, I'm sure if she had more time, she'll want to switch over to the 2009 VW Jetta TDI! Both daughters had major seat time in the VW Touareg TDI and both loved it ! They even brought it back to me totally washed! With not a scratch !

    What is probably a weird thing is that with either diesel CUV, I can fuel up to 250 miles away or not. Needless to say I can buy on price or not! Getting a $.78 rebate is just icing on the cake.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I'm not so sure that gas and diesel are inexorably linked. Move away from ICE and keep the price of oil depressed and one of these years it'll get economical to crack and tweak it enough to make something else entirely. Either that or just leave it in the ground.

    Moving the goalposts:

    "Largely at the behest of Germany, whose auto industry is the world's fourth-largest, the European Parliament has been moving to severely water down NOx standards. Under the new plan, cars would be able to exceed future nitrogen oxide limits in on-road testing by up to 110 percent until January 2020, and by 50 percent thereafter. " (Bloomberg)
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    "Largely at the behest of Germany, whose auto industry is the world's fourth-largest,

    Pardon my ignorance but who are the first three ?
    US is the numero uno but who are the other two ?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    stever said:

    I'm not so sure that gas and diesel are inexorably linked. Move away from ICE and keep the price of oil depressed and one of these years it'll get economical to crack and tweak it enough to make something else entirely. Either that or just leave it in the ground.

    Moving the goalposts:

    "Largely at the behest of Germany, whose auto industry is the world's fourth-largest, the European Parliament has been moving to severely water down NOx standards. Under the new plan, cars would be able to exceed future nitrogen oxide limits in on-road testing by up to 110 percent until January 2020, and by 50 percent thereafter. " (Bloomberg)

    Your quote belies your own point! The truth is opaque because of the efficiency of the markets. Just the barrel of oil gas/diesel ratios & it's numbers disprove your opinions! Now I understand that most people may not understand what the ratio and numbers really mean, but I'm sure as moderator of this thread, you at least know what the arguments are. Going forward efficiency of the markets might be impaired because of the downward ystress the government/s is/are putting on the price of oil to kill fracking. But make no mistake, fracking is the way to go! The fact that a find can be ramped up and ramped down so very quickly over a huge oil discovery in some seabed. Why would anybody in their right mind risk a deep ocean, out in the middle of nowhere well drilling? Yet as enviro [non-permissible content removed] vilify huge deep water wells, that is exactly what is rewarded ! ? ;)
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Well, you know what they say, Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Donec a diam lectus. Sed sit amet ipsum mauris. Maecenas congue ligula ac quam viverra nec consectetur ante hendrerit. Donec et mollis dolor. Praesent et diam eget libero egestas mattis sit amet vitae augue.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    ;) Easy for you to say.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited January 2016
    So let them sow the wind, and reap the whirlwind.
    stever said:

    I'm not so sure that gas and diesel are inexorably linked. Move away from ICE and keep the price of oil depressed and one of these years it'll get economical to crack and tweak it enough to make something else entirely. Either that or just leave it in the ground.

    Moving the goalposts:

    "Largely at the behest of Germany, whose auto industry is the world's fourth-largest, the European Parliament has been moving to severely water down NOx standards. Under the new plan, cars would be able to exceed future nitrogen oxide limits in on-road testing by up to 110 percent until January 2020, and by 50 percent thereafter. " (Bloomberg)

    You left out the second part of that article:

    On Thursday, an imminent vote on the diluted standards was delayed until early February after the body's environmental committee overwhelmingly recommended rejecting them. The extra weeks will give manufacturers more time to make their case.

    Bloombert's opinion is that the Germany government should raise taxes on diesel cars and let local cities regulate Nox emissions by restricting access to certain corridors.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    LA studies show that the majority of the N0x emissions that exceed targets are caused by gasser cars! The nexus here is the LA areas are one of the most pollution prone in the US.

    German concerns are really beyond our perview & control !
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    ruking1 said:

    German concerns are really beyond our perview & control !

    There you go again with the [non-permissible content removed] references. :p

  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,685
    stever said:

    ruking1 said:

    German concerns are really beyond our perview & control !

    There you go again with the [non-permissible content removed] references. :p

    Hahhahaha, Steve. Perhaps he meant "germane." Is this discussion still centered on regulatory groups? :)
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited January 2016
    Bearly.

    Opps, 'scuse the Alaskan typo. I meant barely.

    Road trip?

    "A Colorado couple on a cross-country drive to return their 2011 diesel Volkswagen Jetta to the automaker's U.S. headquarters in Virginia stopped in Chicago on Friday to raise awareness about the emissions scandal.

    Moench and Caspari said they bought the Jetta for its excellent mileage and environmental benefits."

    VW diesel owners on cross-country drive make Chicago stop to raise awareness (chicagotribune.com)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    stever said:

    ruking1 said:

    German concerns are really beyond our perview & control !

    There you go again with the [non-permissible content removed] references. :p

    Well they haven't changed @ all!? :(
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    stever said:

    I'm not so sure that gas and diesel are inexorably linked. Move away from ICE and keep the price of oil depressed and one of these years it'll get economical to crack and tweak it enough to make something else entirely. Either that or just leave it in the ground.

    Moving the goalposts:

    "Largely at the behest of Germany, whose auto industry is the world's fourth-largest, the European Parliament has been moving to severely water down NOx standards. Under the new plan, cars would be able to exceed future nitrogen oxide limits in on-road testing by up to 110 percent until January 2020, and by 50 percent thereafter. " (Bloomberg)

    Good to see not all governments have the head where the sun don't shine. As long as they can keep the Enviro Whackos at bay. Cities like London and Paris should just outlaw all auto traffic. Put the buses on CNG. Crazy to go where the air is that dirty to start with.

    The GOOD News is I got my notice of generosity by VW toward me a valued customer. GM and Toyota owners eat your heart out.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    Based upon the various ratios, it's almost idiotic to make a case for getting rid of gas or diesel ! Like I have said, more than once, a higher percentage of diesel PVF in America would actually create less demand for oil. So it is more than obvious why the diesel PVF is so % wise so low.

    A practical attitude, I am sure is Germany feeling persecuted by the United States for actually using LESS oil! (than the US, ratio wise)

    Yes, isn't that attitude refreshing? Your post indicates I probably should be receiving the VW letter (2012 VW Touareg TDI) shortly .
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    stever said:

    Bearly.

    Opps, 'scuse the Alaskan typo. I meant barely.

    Road trip?

    "A Colorado couple on a cross-country drive to return their 2011 diesel Volkswagen Jetta to the automaker's U.S. headquarters in Virginia stopped in Chicago on Friday to raise awareness about the emissions scandal.

    Moench and Caspari said they bought the Jetta for its excellent mileage and environmental benefits."

    VW diesel owners on cross-country drive make Chicago stop to raise awareness (chicagotribune.com)

    Nothing better to do in life. I bet they were at the occupy Wall Street protest too. Their 'two weeks of fame' seeking narcissists .
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    They got ripped off. They have a right to complain.
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760

    They got ripped off.

    prove it
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016

    They got ripped off. They have a right to complain.

    Yes, it seems very similar to the 2004 Toyota Prius protest. @ that time it seemed not many environmentalist's, who bought this thing were concerned about the fact that the Pruis had a much greater consumption of resources (still does) footprint than any competitive normal gas car.

    Instead, as I remember, they were miffed that it only got 35 to 43 mpg when it was advertised 60 city/50 highway mpg. To be fair I think part of it was the fact that you had to drive this thing like a Wayne Gerdes to get anywhere close to what was advertised! Of course, the political act of cooking the EPA test to FAVOR the hybrid was implemented. Even with the implementation, the Prius still could not hit its own published numbers.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    edited January 2016
    Looks like someone is chasing a settlement. They bought it for low running costs and now see dollar signs. I hope they get a $150 voucher for VW accessories, only available at the dealer ;)

    Latest diesel stinker was that same FedEx truck. That's a lot more protest-able.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    carboy21 said:

    They got ripped off.

    prove it
    Dont' have to "prove it". They (like my friends) thought they were buying a car advertised to be as clean as a gasoline engine but offering at least 20% better fuel economy, and they ended up owning a gross polluter.

    Suppose I sold you an air filtration system for your home but later you find out it's actually 40X less effective than advertised. Do you give me a pass? I doubt it.


  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Isn't the 40x an "up to" number, with a real number not concisely known?

    I think the "proving" is a real ideal,, too. The diesel people I know don't yap on and on about the environment, they want something that isn't a penalty box hybrid but still gets 45+ mpg. It'll be difficult to prove purchase intent, although the court system will allow it anyway.

    I also find it amusing that the investigation against French makers has apparently turned into nothing, along with claims by a German environmental lobby that an old MB CDI was in violation of regulations also evaporated.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    fintail said:

    Isn't the 40x an "up to" number, with a real number not concisely known?

    I think the "proving" is a real ideal,, too. The diesel people I know don't yap on and on about the environment, they want something that isn't a penalty box hybrid but still gets 45+ mpg. It'll be difficult to prove purchase intent, although the court system will allow it anyway.

    I also find it amusing that the investigation against French makers has apparently turned into nothing, along with claims by a German environmental lobby that an old MB CDI was in violation of regulations also evaporated.

    To me the fatalistically deeply flawed assumption the gasser folks work from is: their "stuff doesn't stink". That is FAR from the case. In the pollution studies in LA, CA. in the most polluted county in the US, shows that the majority of N0x is caused by gassers! The standards are greatly EXCEEDED now! Noticeably lacking are any measurable percentage of diesel cars !
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    fintail said:

    Isn't the 40x an "up to" number, with a real number not concisely known?

    I think the "proving" is a real ideal,, too. The diesel people I know don't yap on and on about the environment, they want something that isn't a penalty box hybrid but still gets 45+ mpg. It'll be difficult to prove purchase intent, although the court system will allow it anyway.

    I also find it amusing that the investigation against French makers has apparently turned into nothing, along with claims by a German environmental lobby that an old MB CDI was in violation of regulations also evaporated.

    Well I guess all diesel owners are different. My friends are totally PO-ed at VW. I would be, too. It's not what they signed up for. Obviously, having a cleaner diesel is part of the intent of purchase, because of the stigma of the diesel as a "filthy" engine here in the USA. VW assured people not only of German quality (as opposed to GM incompetence with diesel cars) but also of environmental responsibility.

    My friends would not have bought an American diesel car nor a gross polluter.



  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited January 2016
    See what I mean? There are numerous commercials in a similar vein but no need to beat it to death.

    The most ironic video ends with the slogan "Truth in Engineering".

    I'd say that these are excellent proof of having been deceived, wouldn't you?


  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    edited January 2016
    Why are they upset? What exactly did they not receive? What is the quantifiable difference, and what is the monetary value of that difference?

    I see an ad for "Clean Diesel". Compared to old diesels, it is quite clean. Compared to modern diesels that can use the cop out of commercial vehicle standards, it is clean.

    And what did they expect from German quality? Were they unfamiliar with the past 40 years of VW reputation? For people who know anything about cars, German quality means a few things - nice interiors, nice styling, high build quality, good to drive, inconsistent electronics, expensive maintenance.

    I bet they'd buy a Tesla or a Prius or something that just moves the pollution into someone else's backyard.



    Well I guess all diesel owners are different. My friends are totally PO-ed at VW. I would be, too. It's not what they signed up for. Obviously, having a cleaner diesel is part of the intent of purchase, because of the stigma of the diesel as a "filthy" engine here in the USA. VW assured people not only of German quality (as opposed to GM incompetence with diesel cars) but also of environmental responsibility.

    My friends would not have bought an American diesel car nor a gross polluter.



  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited January 2016

    Or as Bill Maher put it: "VW advertised a green car that pollutes. Who said Germans weren't funny?"
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited January 2016
    What others think. Do you find these comments legit or....??

    "Almost 90 consumers have also directly filed complaints through the FTC’s Consumer Sentinel Network; many write that they feel deceived and regret owning a diesel with such high emissions. Others worry that they will be unable to sell their cars because of the scandal.

    “I am ashamed to drive this car on the road, as doing so is evidence that I have been taken for a fool,” said one consumer from Dripping Springs, Texas.

    “Consumers who are environmentally mindful like those who purchased VW ‘Clean Diesel’ cars should be reimbursed before fines are paid to the EPA,” wrote another consumer. “The EPA doesn’t need money, but I do. … I would have never bought a VW if it wasn’t good for the environment.”


    The U.S. Federal Trade Commission will be looking into complaints that Volkswagen AG engaged in deceptive advertising with its “clean diesel” marketing campaign.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    "“The EPA doesn’t need money, but I do"

    That's evidence of hunting for a cash grab, to me. I can see compensation for resale issues, but otherwise, grasping at straws. The only winners in this will be lawyers.

    No transport is "good" for the environment, some are simply less harmful than others. I question the motives of that complainant.
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    edited January 2016
    “I am ashamed to drive this car on the road, as doing so is evidence that I have been taken for a fool,” said one consumer from Dripping Springs, Texas.

    I was about to buy a Passat TDI , 2 weeks before the scandal hit the news. I interpreted Clean Diesel as cleaner then the previous diesels. No time was I deluded that it is a pollution free clean car. Either I was stupid or I have English comprehension problem ?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016

    What others think. Do you find these comments legit or....??

    "Almost 90 consumers have also directly filed complaints through the FTC’s Consumer Sentinel Network; many write that they feel deceived and regret owning a diesel with such high emissions. Others worry that they will be unable to sell their cars because of the scandal.

    “I am ashamed to drive this car on the road, as doing so is evidence that I have been taken for a fool,” said one consumer from Dripping Springs, Texas.

    “Consumers who are environmentally mindful like those who purchased VW ‘Clean Diesel’ cars should be reimbursed before fines are paid to the EPA,” wrote another consumer. “The EPA doesn’t need money, but I do. … I would have never bought a VW if it wasn’t good for the environment.”


    The U.S. Federal Trade Commission will be looking into complaints that Volkswagen AG engaged in deceptive advertising with its “clean diesel” marketing campaign.

    Really the underlying assumption is totally wrong! NO transportation modality is "good for the environment". So in that sense, they need to buck up, quit whining and get over it!

    Most folks really don't understand yet, but if EV etc. was so "good for the environment " one has to wonder why they fought to freed up Afghanistan, which has potentially $10 trillion worth of rare earth metals needed for the EV etc. infrastructure!? Currently, rare earth metal mining is done in first world countries. But the Eco types will try to end it soon, for as long as it takes China to get the contracts to do rare earth metal mining in Afganistan !
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    fortune.com/2015/09/16/tesla-lithium-gigafactory-nevada/

    Pollute Nevada so that California can have their Tesla cars .
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Anyone figure out what percentage of VW TDI owners are upset. ALMOST 90 out of 600,000 owners. That is almost .00015%. Their VW TDIs still put out less global warming causing CO2 and deadly Carbon Monoxide. If I was VW I would buy back all the VW TDIs from the whiny owners and put them on a black list for future sales. They are obviously not the kind of customers VW needs. They deserve to be stuck driving a POC Prius.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    Hard to imagine a newer car being dirtier than the old one, especially one that put out HUGE amount of pollution. If my new car didn't meet important specs, I was cheated. If the car with a fix performs poorer, I've been damaged. Also if I wanted to sell the car during this huge period where they haven't come up with a fix.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    What about those non-owners who got hit by the fumes?
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    That's what EPA fines are for.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    texases said:

    Hard to imagine a newer car being dirtier than the old one, especially one that put out HUGE amount of pollution. If my new car didn't meet important specs, I was cheated. If the car with a fix performs poorer, I've been damaged. Also if I wanted to sell the car during this huge period where they haven't come up with a fix.

    Has anyone tried to sell a VW TDI and got dinged? I don't see any lower prices on VW TDIs which are in very short supply.
This discussion has been closed.