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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I wonder if the Toyota Land Cruiser will be around here much longer. Only one available at all the San Diego dealers. You can get a real SUV for $86k with a diesel engine. The Landcruisers sold to the rest of the World would get a notice. Not what they are selling here. Lexus LX is outselling the LC by 50%. People don't like paying that much for a Toyota when you can get the luxury version for a few thou more.

    Quick check local Lexus dealers have 51 LX570s on the lots. Starting at $90k.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I am surprised the LC sells at all, with the existence of the LX. Local Toyota dealer had none on the lot the last time I was there. Like gagrice mentions, LC is cheaper but LX has more equipment. Some must prefer the traditional badge.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,351
    edited January 2016
    A few years ago you could buy a new LC and equip it any way you wanted, and still get everything you really needed for much less than an LX. Now it comes standard with almost the same equipment as the LX, along with a much increased price. I had a chance to buy a new 2007 LC, very well equipped for $57,000. It was a demo with about 1500 miles on it. Wife wanted an LX instead.

    Edit. I take it back, it was a 2008 LC. First year of the new body style.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The Range Rover is an extremely competent off-roader. The LC would have to work itself to its limits to excel against it.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    At least for the first 50K miles or so? B)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well that's true... there is the...ahem...durability issue...but the argument was a grille to grille offroad test, not a 50,000 mile longterm. I remember reading about some Aussies that took a bunch of these luxury SUVs off into the outback and beat the crap out of them. The Range Rover bested the Benz and the Nissan Patrol and was every bit as good as the LC, but then it busted its rear shock mounts.

    The LC is great but I think it's way overpriced for what it is.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    Yep that's the definition of high maintenance, SUV/CUV! Look for @ least 180,000 miles just to even compete!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    If I was the target demographic for one (I won't say what I think they are), I'd lease. If I wanted a LC/LX I would buy an off-lease one.

    I still like my Unimog idea - not really a passenger vehicle, but more fun.
  • kai_hiwatarikai_hiwatari Member Posts: 1
    gagrice said:

    I wonder if the Toyota Land Cruiser will be around here much longer. Only one available at all the San Diego dealers. You can get a real SUV for $86k with a diesel engine. The Landcruisers sold to the rest of the World would get a notice. Not what they are selling here. Lexus LX is outselling the LC by 50%. People don't like paying that much for a Toyota when you can get the luxury version for a few thou more.

    Quick check local Lexus dealers have 51 LX570s on the lots. Starting at $90k.

    If I wanted a LC/LX I would buy an off-lease one.

  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    Very rarely you get LC/LX off lease. Most buy it for keeps.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    VW considering having to buy back 115,000 diesels in US.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-idUSKBN0UL00320160107

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Continental's CEO thinks the U.S. diesel market might be dead.

    VW Scandal Could Kill U.S. Diesel Market
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I was kinda hoping to see a VW Golf Sportwagon Allroad diesel in the U.S. in 2017, but now I'm wondering if that will ever happen.

  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,934
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    I was kinda hoping to see a VW Golf Sportwagon Allroad diesel in the U.S. in 2017, but now I'm wondering if that will ever happen.

    I'd consider a VW Golf R Sportwagen Allroad; though they should find a way to lengthen the name.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I hope the hatch is big enough to carry all that lettering!
  • MichaellMichaell Moderator Posts: 262,281
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    I hope the hatch is big enough to carry all that lettering!

    They could reduce the font size ...

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  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    Rumors of diesel/s death are WAY premature! My swag is that diesels will actually grow ! Volume will be first, followed by %, which is now between 3 to 5%. Not only are other OEMs applying competitive heat while VW is being kicked in the head and down, but people are actually recognizing that it's a very very competitive alternative fuel, as defined by EPA/CARB ! Diesel fuel & diesel products have been hiding in plain sight !
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Maybe....maybe...if biofuel can be marketed more effectively, they could tie the diesel and the B100 together and go way green. "Green" is the future, there's no way around it, and all the automakers are getting on board. Everyone knows that cheap fossil fuel is a temporary thing...and even IF fossil fuel doesn't skyrocket, the 'green movement' will still move ahead smartly, because public perceptions are changing rapidly. Organic foods and gardening practices, and "natural" pesticides, compete very keenly these days with their once-dominant competitors, for instance.

    So yeah, there's a place of diesels, but not as they are--but as they could be.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    Maybe....maybe...if biofuel can be marketed more effectively, they could tie the diesel and the B100 together and go way green. "Green" is the future, there's no way around it, and all the automakers are getting on board. Everyone knows that cheap fossil fuel is a temporary thing...and even IF fossil fuel doesn't skyrocket, the 'green movement' will still move ahead smartly, because public perceptions are changing rapidly. Organic foods and gardening practices, and "natural" pesticides, compete very keenly these days with their once-dominant competitors, for instance.

    So yeah, there's a place of diesels, but not as they are--but as they could be.

    VW would have to change it's tech. My TDI can't use more than 10% bio, IIRC. Definitely not more than 15%.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    Maybe....maybe...if biofuel can be marketed more effectively, they could tie the diesel and the B100 together and go way green. "Green" is the future, there's no way around it, and all the automakers are getting on board. Everyone knows that cheap fossil fuel is a temporary thing...and even IF fossil fuel doesn't skyrocket, the 'green movement' will still move ahead smartly, because public perceptions are changing rapidly. Organic foods and gardening practices, and "natural" pesticides, compete very keenly these days with their once-dominant competitors, for instance.

    So yeah, there's a place of diesels, but not as they are--but as they could be.

    The narrative is more fantasy and pip dream than reality ! Even the Queen of England drives old RR's !

    EPA/CARB are loathed (defacto) to certify for B 100 engine passenger car specifications.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited January 2016
    Maybe....maybe...if biofuel can be marketed more effectively, they could tie the diesel and the B100 together and go way green. "Green" is the future, there's no way around it, and all the automakers are getting on board. Everyone knows that cheap fossil fuel is a temporary thing..

    That was something I looked forward to. It is obvious why diesel makers discourage the use of Biodiesel. It creates more NOx the stuff we are currently fighting over.

    An overwhelming number of studies show that using neat biodiesel and biodiesel blends in compression ignition engines slightly increases the generation of nitric oxide and nitrogen dioxide-any combination of which constitutes oxides of nitrogen (NOx).

    http://www.biodieselmagazine.com/articles/426/knocking-out-nox
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    Fueled locally for 39.35 mpg! I'm not really sure why so much better on in this holiday terrible commute! (MB GLK 250 BT, 488 miles) Will take it! It is even better with a 2% rebate!

    Happy new year to one and all !
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Looking at the recent settlement on the BP oil spill in the Gulf, one has to compare that HUGE environmental disaster with the VW scandal. A case where the EPA/CARB cannot even measure in the air the result of added NOx. The BP oil spill is thousands of times worse than dieselgate, yet the bottom line is looking much less for BP. GM got off with $900 million murdering 125+ people, VW should get fined less than half that. I think $100 million fine, plus whatever it takes to fix the cars would be fair.

    Costs incurred by BP so far include an estimated $14 billion for response and cleanup and $4.5 billion in penalties announced after a settlement of a criminal case with the government.

    The federal government and Gulf Coast states announced a record-setting $18.7 billion settlement with BP on Thursday that resolves years of litigation over the 2010 Gulf of Mexico oil spill and delivers the largest environmental settlement ever.

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2015/07/02/gulf-states-reach-187b-settlement--bp-over-oil-spill/29611451/
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    edited January 2016
    Costs incurred by BP so far include an estimated $14 billion for response and cleanup and $4.5 billion in penalties announced after a settlement of a criminal case with the government.

    Federal Justice department asking for $48 Billion from VW for cheating and unsubstantiated NOX emissions allegations is laughably ridiculous . Lets see what they can do if VW refuses to pay anything. TDI owners can keep driving them for years to come before any resolution comes out of the case. If they boot VW out , then VW is still a winner :smile:
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think it is purely a case of seeing a successful company like VW with a lot of cash in the bank. And wanting to get as much as possible. I don't think the ambulance chasers will find the hordes of TDI owners wanting to dump their cars because they may be putting out a slight increase in NOx. My dealer has not gotten any cars back and the only complaints are from Eco nuts that don't own a VW TDI. Would I take a $1000 gift for my anxiety over the whole issue. Of course I would. And spend the $500 on advertising stuff with VW TDI the answer. I would have posted one of the many T-shirts available with the sentiments of TDI owners about EPA emissions.

    http://www.redbubble.com/people/lolotees/works/17489017-vw-dieselgate-humor?p=t-shirt&style=womens&body_color=white&print_location=front

  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    carboy21 said:

    Costs incurred by BP so far include an estimated $14 billion for response and cleanup and $4.5 billion in penalties announced after a settlement of a criminal case with the government.

    Federal Justice department asking for $48 Billion from VW for cheating and unsubstantiated NOX emissions allegations is laughably ridiculous . Lets see what they can do if VW refuses to pay anything. TDI owners can keep driving them for years to come before any resolution comes out of the case. If they boot VW out , then VW is still a winner :smile:

    Pure fantasy. The NOx allegations are proven and admitted. Why continue this dead end strategy? If you think the crimes are minimal, fine, but reality is reality.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    Just got my EPA/CARB smog certification! The 2009 VW TDI is certified good to go for another bi annual period. (two years ) I have to bring the car to the local dealership to register for the $ 1,000 (& VW ROAD SIDE ASSIST)customer care package. So this is one anecdotal REALITY example of a 2009 VW TDI with over 100,000 miles.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Pure fantasy. The NOx allegations are proven and admitted. Why continue this dead end strategy? If you think the crimes are minimal, fine, but reality is reality.

    I don't think anyone is saying that NOx is not a pollutant and VW cheated on the 2.0L TDI. I and others are saying as a percentage of NOx in the air we breathe the extra put out by half a million VW TDI cars cheating is not measurable. When a million CA diesel trucks are allowed to emit 125 times as much NOx as a VW TDI, it makes the 70,000 CA VW TDIs driving far fewer miles insignificant, as polluters. The fine should match the level of pollution, not the level of EPA egos crushed. I am convinced the courts will see it as any logical thinker would see it.

    I don't see much activity for the last couple months except from the ambulance chasers trying to drum up business. A lot of todo over nothing. What I do see is a buying opportunity for those wanting a VW TDI. Find an Eco wonk that feels guilty killing off millions of people with his NOx spewing diesel car. Offer him below low BB and see if he bites.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    ruking1 said:

    Just got my EPA/CARB smog certification!

    Is the test in your area the OBDII one or do they put a sniffer in the tailpipe?

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited January 2016
    gagrice said:

    Maybe....maybe...if biofuel can be marketed more effectively, they could tie the diesel and the B100 together and go way green. "Green" is the future, there's no way around it, and all the automakers are getting on board. Everyone knows that cheap fossil fuel is a temporary thing..

    That was something I looked forward to. It is obvious why diesel makers discourage the use of Biodiesel. It creates more NOx the stuff we are currently fighting over.

    An overwhelming number of studies show that using neat biodiesel and biodiesel blends in compression ignition engines slightly increases the generation of nitric oxide and nitrogen dioxide-any combination of which constitutes oxides of nitrogen (NOx).

    http://www.biodieselmagazine.com/articles/426/knocking-out-nox

    That's a very old article (2005!!!) and technology has, or will soon, eliminate this objection. Progress may indeed save the diesel. Nox emissions are no longer a valid argument against biodiesel.

    But as you say, diesel engine technology will need a new generation to deal with B100.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    gagrice said:

    Maybe....maybe...if biofuel can be marketed more effectively, they could tie the diesel and the B100 together and go way green. "Green" is the future, there's no way around it, and all the automakers are getting on board. Everyone knows that cheap fossil fuel is a temporary thing..

    That was something I looked forward to. It is obvious why diesel makers discourage the use of Biodiesel. It creates more NOx the stuff we are currently fighting over.

    An overwhelming number of studies show that using neat biodiesel and biodiesel blends in compression ignition engines slightly increases the generation of nitric oxide and nitrogen dioxide-any combination of which constitutes oxides of nitrogen (NOx).

    http://www.biodieselmagazine.com/articles/426/knocking-out-nox

    That's a very old article (2005!!!) and technology has, or will soon, eliminate this objection. Progress may indeed save the diesel. Nox emissions are no longer a valid argument against biodiesel.

    But as you say, diesel engine technology will need a new generation to deal with B100.
    Well, no ! iF EPA/CARB does not certify B100 engine specifications, ( I,3, I 4, I 5, I 6, V6, , etc.,) why would ANY OEM think about it? The technologies are literally off-the-shelf ! It's a total no brainer!
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    edited January 2016
    Todays article in WSJ says that  the fines are highly disproportionate to the level of harm caused by the offending cars . 
    Fines have been levelled to set an example to the future cheaters   :D

    Is it a coincidence that the head of the EPA is named, McCarthy  :D
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well how can EPA certify B100 when no automaker will certify it for their engines?

    At present, the EPA has not certified any *conversions* to biodiesel. That's not to say they wouldn't certify a B100 engine if VW or MB would make one.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    carboy21 said:

    Todays article in WSJ says that  the fines are highly disproportionate to the level of harm caused by the offending cars . 
    Fines have been levelled to set an example to the future cheaters   :D

    Then I would expect a long, knock down, drag out affair.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Oh, it's going to be ugly all right.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    Well how can EPA certify B100 when no automaker will certify it for their engines?

    At present, the EPA has not certified any *conversions* to biodiesel. That's not to say they wouldn't certify a B100 engine if VW or MB would make one.

    I'm not certain why you are trying to turn a very simple concept into something FUBAR?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    As I recall you said that EPA wouldn't certify B100, and I said they can't because there are no engines being produced by automakers that they would warranty for B100. What's the problem?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    https://www.yahoo.com/tech/vw-could-buy-back-115-171810683.html
    US market buy back!
    From what I can swag, the 2009 TDI 's are on that list! Make mine another diesel ! I really would not like a "Frankensteined" car.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    As I recall you said that EPA wouldn't certify B100, and I said they can't because there are no engines being produced by automakers that they would warranty for B100. What's the problem?

    Chicken & egg my friend, which you don't seem to acknowledge. So let's agree to disagree !
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I have no idea what you're talking about, sorry.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    Well, how about those GS Warriors!

    On topic, the ULSD price @ $ 2.07 will buy 241.5 gal! ($ 500 of the VW CC package) Depending on vehicle used : 50 mpg/12,075, 40 mpg/ 9,660, 36 mpg/8,694, 33 mpg/7,970 miles ! I have never used road side assist for any diesel in app 378,000 miles. That would not be true on the gasser side.

    As I write this , the 2009 TDI is registered at the local VW dealership for the (diesel) customer care package!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Warriors are awesome. Now you are making sense to me.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    Warriors are awesome. Now you are making sense to me.

    Yeah, the actual reason why we got the (50 mpg) 2003 VW Jetta TDI in the first place was for girls varsity & club basketball. We were posting about 25,000 miles a year for 4 years ! These experiences morphed into title IX div 1 basketball hopes at the college level.

    Long story short, of a series of professional certifications, scholastic requirements and stipends, my daughter was able to travel with the variety of div 1 varsity teams! It seemed to be an absolutely wide ranging sports, scientific, rehab & over the top college experience! She's now a Doctor Physical Therapy student. She seems to be tending toward sports medicine and injury rehab. Time will tell ! If somebody young can manage the rigors of what it takes to get to DPT, the field is just wide, wide, wide open!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I got behind an obnoxious smoky diesel today.

    It was a later model Ford Powerstroke overcompensator truck.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Was he flying a confederate flag ? ;)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    They are great for industrial uses but hardly a recreational or commuter vehicle. That's plain silly.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    It had Snohomish plate frames - surprisingly, no flag.

    Such behemoths are used as commuters in many places in this country. They don't have to cheat though, special regs.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    fintail said:

    It had Snohomish plate frames - surprisingly, no flag.

    Such behemoths are used as commuters in many places in this country. They don't have to cheat though, special regs.

    Yeah, a lot of those folks sink big $$'s into those rigs, gas / diesel. !?

    We usually share the roads with the people who drive these things, on the SOS/DD trek!
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited January 2016
    ruking1 said:

    She's now a Doctor Physical Therapy student.

    Good for her - my wife just did some PT to fix some issues from her 8 year old broken leg and my mom is cussing her PTs right now as she rehabs from a broken hip. :)

    Back to talk about over the top, this was a fun one:

    Diesel fumes ‘biggest health catastrophe since Black Death’ as London exceeds yearly air pollution levels – in eight days (independent.co.uk)

    And another fix 'em blurb:

    "Volkswagen engineers have come up with a catalytic converter that could be fitted to around 430,000 cars in the United States as a fix for vehicles capable of cheating emissions tests, the German newspaper Bild am Sonntag reports."

    VW May Have Fix For 'Cheating' Cars (ibtimes.com)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    Well how can EPA certify B100 when no automaker will certify it for their engines?

    At present, the EPA has not certified any *conversions* to biodiesel. That's not to say they wouldn't certify a B100 engine if VW or MB would make one.

    Actually Willie Nelson has been running B100 in his MB since 2005 with the blessings of Mercedes. His wife has an older VW Jetta wagon diesel also running on B100. It seems the Biodiesel industry in Hawaii is much more advanced than the rest of the World. They also set up a B100 plant for Kettle Chips in Oregon. They use their old cooking oil to run a fleet of VW Beetles.

    The Salem plant’s customers includes Salem Area Mass Transit District, Cherriots; the entire bus fleet runs on 20 percent biodiesel, Carpenter said. The City of Portland’s water bureau vehicles run on 99.9 percent biodiesel.

    The biodiesel-production plant opened in 2005 and was the first one in the state.

    http://stillisstillmoving.com/willienelson/willie-nelson-to-visit-e-salem-biodiesel-plant/

    https://www.bio-beetle.com/images/biobeetlesinparadise.pdf

    Our VW maui rental cars get 40 MPG, over 400 miles on a tank, and are NOT affected by the VW "diesel dupe" at all.

    https://mauicarrentals.us/
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