What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

Mr_Shiftright

gagrice said:

It's VW that's screwing you, not CARB. You are barking at the wrong intruder seems to me. Without VW's malice, you'd have no problem.

I will disagree. I pay taxes for the EPA/CARB to enforce pollution laws. They claim to test 15% of all models sold in the USA. VW/Audi have at least 10 models and 7 model years that are in question. That means VW put out 70 models of diesel cars and the EPA did not test one of those models. What does the EPA do besides pollute rivers in WV and CO

So if the police don't catch a bank robber the police are guilty of robbing the bank?

gagrice

Mr_Shiftright said:

gagrice said:

It's VW that's screwing you, not CARB. You are barking at the wrong intruder seems to me. Without VW's malice, you'd have no problem.

I will disagree. I pay taxes for the EPA/CARB to enforce pollution laws. They claim to test 15% of all models sold in the USA. VW/Audi have at least 10 models and 7 model years that are in question. That means VW put out 70 models of diesel cars and the EPA did not test one of those models. What does the EPA do besides pollute rivers in WV and CO

So if the police don't catch a bank robber the police are guilty of robbing the bank?

If the same robber hits the same bank 7 years in a row without being caught, I would look at the police as incompetent. And a waste of tax payers money.

gagrice

Especially when someone comes half way around the World and tells the cops who robbed the bank.

texases

"I will disagree. I pay taxes for the EPA/CARB to enforce pollution laws. They claim to test 15% of all models sold in the USA. VW/Audi have at least 10 models and 7 model years that are in question. That means VW put out 70 models of diesel cars and the EPA did not test one of those models. What does the EPA do besides pollute rivers in WV and CO"

???  They DID test them. The software cheat allowed the cars to pass. 

ruking1

Slow diesel News Day!

We are suffering right along with $ 2.09 ULSD, $2.11 RUG, $ 2.35 PUG ! 2% rebate. We really need to suffer more at the $ 1.82 level (in GA) .

The 12 VW Touareg TDI is posting 35/36 mpg (gassers on fuelly.com -19 mpg) computer on SOS/DD trek. (12.3 gal app/of 26.4 gal ) It needs another 450+/490 miles for a pen/paper tank full.

The 14 MB GLK 250 BT posted just barely 38 mpg for a 475 miles tank FILL (horrible holiday commutes, huge idle times - not really sure why mpg is slightly better 12.5 gal/17.4 gal cap) It has an ECO mode, but I've never run a side-by-side comparison. Gassers (fuelly.com seem to post 21 mpg PUG)
Steady Eddie 09 VW Jetta TDI 40 mpg put down. zzzzzzzzzz.....

Mr_Shiftright

Bingo! Gold star in the fact department.

Why are you guys giving the VW slimeballs slack? (scratching head).

texases said:

"I will disagree. I pay taxes for the EPA/CARB to enforce pollution laws. They claim to test 15% of all models sold in the USA. VW/Audi have at least 10 models and 7 model years that are in question. That means VW put out 70 models of diesel cars and the EPA did not test one of those models. What does the EPA do besides pollute rivers in WV and CO"

???

 They DID test them. The software cheat allowed the cars to pass. 

henryn

Mr_Shiftright said:

Bingo! Gold star in the fact department.

Why are you guys giving the VW slimeballs slack? (scratching head).

texases said:

"I will disagree. I pay taxes for the EPA/CARB to enforce pollution laws. They claim to test 15% of all models sold in the USA. VW/Audi have at least 10 models and 7 model years that are in question. That means VW put out 70 models of diesel cars and the EPA did not test one of those models. What does the EPA do besides pollute rivers in WV and CO"

???

 They DID test them. The software cheat allowed the cars to pass. 

+1, and a thumbs up for that one. I cannot believe the VW defenders in here are trying to blame the EPA/CARB for cheating committed by VW.

iluvmysephia1

'Cause they love their V-Dubs so much. That much.

ruking1

Slow market news day RBob gasoline (sub) $ 1.21! As cheap as that is, HO is $ 1.09!

For as much of a glut as R Bob gasoline has, Diesel has MORE! ( % wise & relative to 42 gal barrel @ sub $36., 19 gal gas, 10 gal diesel)

ruking1

Mr_Shiftright said:

Bingo! Gold star in the fact department.

Why are you guys giving the VW slimeballs slack? (scratching head).

texases said:

"I will disagree. I pay taxes for the EPA/CARB to enforce pollution laws. They claim to test 15% of all models sold in the USA. VW/Audi have at least 10 models and 7 model years that are in question. That means VW put out 70 models of diesel cars and the EPA did not test one of those models. What does the EPA do besides pollute rivers in WV and CO"

???

 They DID test them. The software cheat allowed the cars to pass. 

I'm just fine with the (your) opinions, that are based on FUBAR "facts". Stating the real (as depicted in articles) facts time, after time & time again and understanding them, let alone letting one come to the other points of view or conclusions, doesn't seem to be happening, so, ...why bother ?

So if one does, you say what A GD ZEALOT ! If one doesn't, you say see, ..... you defend the "LIES"!

Mr_Shiftright

I think the culprits were caught red handed---what other "facts" do you need exactly? VW cheated, got caught, admitted guilt, and are now paying the price. Why complicate the obvious? This isn't "murky" like the OJ trial. We know for sure who did it.

iluvmysephia1

This isn't "murky" like the OJ trial. We know for sure who did it.

We did know who did "it", in that trial, too, actually!

ruking1

Mr_Shiftright said:

I think the culprits were caught red handed---what other "facts" do you need exactly? VW cheated, got caught, admitted guilt, and are now paying the price. Why complicate the obvious? This isn't "murky" like the OJ trial. We know for sure who did it.

Right there, that is totally false ! IF one reads the original study, (NOT commissioned by the EPA or CARB- linked in earlier posts) done by that small entrepreneurial emissions test company, with university backing. It says specifically: this test was done on three (TDI) vehicles and is NOT to be extrapolated beyond that ! (words to that effect) Aka, EPA/CARB did NOT caught ANYONE red handed, in the diesel issue, let alone VW!

No doubt, EPA did the " Hollywood"sweat the perp's in the squad's interegation rooms. " But VW was not MIRANDA ized: if criminal charges are brought forth.

They ( plus EPA/CARB) did NOT do a wider correlation study, let alone studies!!

Do I really need to remind you that OJ Simpson was found INNOCENT in a court of law? The jury was NOT hung!!

So yes, I agree with you! Its NOT complicated at all!

Mr_Shiftright

I think you're missing texases point. The EPA didn't catch VW initially because VW built the deception into the car's systems. They PASSED the EPA tests. That's the whole point of his comments. It's not that complicated.

It was the International Council on Clean Transportation that initially called for testing, but not because they suspected VW of wrongdoing; rather, they figured since VW was routinely passing US emissions testing, that they could use this data as a benchmark. So it was when that testing data was compared to the EPA results, that the first smell of something fishy came up.

Mr_Shiftright

And that's another Gold Star---OJ was declared innocent, so he didn't "get caught". He got away with it. Not so VW.

ruking1

Mr_Shiftright said:

I think you're missing texases point. The EPA didn't catch VW initially because VW built the deception into the car's systems. They PASSED the EPA tests. That's the whole point of his comments. It's not that complicated.

It was the International Council on Clean Transportation that initially called for testing, but not because they suspected VW of wrongdoing; rather, they figured since VW was routinely passing US emissions testing, that they could use this data as a benchmark. So it was when that testing data was compared to the EPA results, that the first smell of something fishy came up.

No! & NO! Again false! Texas'es point was crystal clear from the get go ! "We" mostly differ in opinion/s. EPA/CARB is set up to be structurally clue less! I know that is not PC, but saying it that way is the quickest way to get to the truth ! More PC is the Sergeant Schultz and Chicken Little pieces ! Honey mustard anyone? So no not complicated @ all! The situation does brings the broader question to the fore. Is VW the only OEM that bends the rules? Past history indicates that is not true!

So for example, a consumer (ordinary citizen) won a small claims court judgment against Honda Accord. Fear of the precedence setting case, probably forced the Fed to jump in to keep those cases from being tried in small claims court !

http://www.courts.ca.gov/1062.htm

texases

VW is the only OEM that has been caught, and admitted to, and prepared to write off TWELVE BILLION DOLLARS! Your claim that it didn't happen is nonsensical. NOBODY throws away that much money just because, well, I have no idea why.

ruking1

texases said:

VW is the only OEM that has been caught, and admitted to, and prepared to write off TWELVE BILLION DOLLARS! Your claim that it didn't happen is nonsensical. NOBODY throws away that much money just because, well, I have no idea why.

Again false! The nuances are purposely overlooked ! But, on the other hand, I was happy to pick up two or so Bentley's worth of "loose change" in that VW $ 12 B...ah,... exchange!

So how much do you suppose GM / Chysler wrote down in their bankruptcies? Yep you are right $ 45+ billion (just GM) is far cheaper & less than $ 12 B. Oh by the way , did you get your dividends from the IRS ? I sure did not !

stever

I think y'all are missing how the fan got hit. As I understand it, VW was trying to get 2016 models certified and the EPA/Carb said some of the numbers don't add up. Please explain.

VW said the number don't add up because we faked them. Slam dunk admission, and I suppose they finally fessed up in order to get future models approved.

ruking1

stever said:

I think y'all are missing how the fan got hit. As I understand it, VW was trying to get 2016 models certified and the EPA/Carb said some of the numbers don't add up. Please explain.

VW said the number don't add up because we faked them. Slam dunk admission, and I suppose they finally fessed up in order to get future models approved. Otherwise we'd be none the wiser.

Well, has EPA/CARB given VW the 2016 (diesels) certifications yet ? Again, not missing anything.

Here's the flight of fantasy. Suppose I could prevail in small claims court for $10,000 . If I then sell the 2009 VW Jetta TDI for bluebook, I essentially recover what I would have paid for the car new. When I add back the IRS $1.200 tax credit, 1.000 GW, it is $ 2,200 to the good. @ today's prices & 100,000 miles, that's 2.9 cents to drive this thing.

stever

Could take months.

EPA Director: Certifying 2016 VW Diesels Could Take Months (Car & Driver)

I don't see anything on the net says that VW has resubmitted their application to the EPA - VW withdrew it when dieselgate came to light.

I suppose the process could be sped up greatly if we just let VW test the rigs and certify that they pass smog.

ruking1

I am sure for EPA/CARB it would be payback!

gagrice

texases said:

"I will disagree. I pay taxes for the EPA/CARB to enforce pollution laws. They claim to test 15% of all models sold in the USA. VW/Audi have at least 10 models and 7 model years that are in question. That means VW put out 70 models of diesel cars and the EPA did not test one of those models. What does the EPA do besides pollute rivers in WV and CO"

???  They DID test them. The software cheat allowed the cars to pass. 

They did not test them very well if it took the Europeans to find the cover-up. I wonder how many millions of cars on the road are not doing as they should. My diesel passed the CARB test with flying colors. So we are being ripped off by the government if they don't test for actual on the road pollution. My gas cars they run up to speed with a widget in the exhaust pipe. Is it so hard to do the same with diesel?

gagrice

stever said:

Could take months.

EPA Director: Certifying 2016 VW Diesels Could Take Months (Car & Driver)

I don't see anything on the net says that VW has resubmitted their application to the EPA - VW withdrew it when dieselgate came to light.

I suppose the process could be sped up greatly if we just let VW test the rigs and certify that they pass smog.

I have no doubt if I took my Touareg TDI in for a smog check tomorrow, it would pass just like it did in August. Will the state of CA redo their diesel check program for 70,000 VW TDIs? I doubt it.

texases

ruking1 said:

texases said:

VW is the only OEM that has been caught, and admitted to, and prepared to write off TWELVE BILLION DOLLARS! Your claim that it didn't happen is nonsensical. NOBODY throws away that much money just because, well, I have no idea why.

Again false! The nuances are purposely overlooked ! But, on the other hand, I was happy to pick up two or so Bentley's worth of "loose change" in that VW $ 12 B...ah,... exchange!

So how much do you suppose GM / Chysler wrote down in their bankruptcies? Yep you are right $ 45+ billion (just GM) is far cheaper & less than $ 12 B. Oh by the way , did you get your dividends from the IRS ? I sure did not !

What, precisely, is false? Simple question, I'm hoping for a simple answer...

ruking1

The answers ARE simple ! Seems many folks that do not have diesels want to complicate it & the issues beyond FUBAR, recognition!

So for example, many people (that followed the diesel issues on this board) really do NOT understand, let alone see the real consequences what/of what Gagrice said in the post above, about the so called CA diesel smog test ! This is especially true in light of what you say that the Bosch "cheating software" let VW 2.0 L diesels pass.

Mr_Shiftright

I don't see where owning a diesel is relevant to understanding an historical fact. VW rigged the test in their favor, and got busted. I don't own a diesel but I get it.

texases

ruking1 said:

The answers ARE simple ! Seems many folks that do not have diesels want to complicate it & the issues beyond FUBAR, recognition!

So for example, many people (that followed the diesel issues on this board) really do NOT understand, let alone see the real consequences what/of what Gagrice said in the post above, about the so called CA diesel smog test !

As expected, a non-answer. Here are the facts:

VW cheated
VW got caught, confirmed by several tests run by several independent organizations
VW admitted many times they cheated
VW wrote off $12 billion in response to the expected problems
VW fired dozens of top personnel

Which of these do you think are incorrect, and why?

ruking1

Mr_Shiftright said:

I don't see where owning a diesel is relevant to understanding an historical fact. VW rigged the test in their favor, and got busted. I don't own a diesel but I get it.

The answer to your question is really in the statement that I already posted ! So for example, I don't own a Prius hybrid, but I get that I don't want it for a host of reasons, even as I put it in the running for 2 commute car buys.

ruking1

texases said:

ruking1 said:

The answers ARE simple ! Seems many folks that do not have diesels want to complicate it & the issues beyond FUBAR, recognition!

So for example, many people (that followed the diesel issues on this board) really do NOT understand, let alone see the real consequences what/of what Gagrice said in the post above, about the so called CA diesel smog test !

As expected, a non-answer. Here are the facts:

VW cheated
VW got caught, confirmed by several tests run by several independent organizations
VW admitted many times they cheated
VW wrote off $12 billion in response to the expected problems
VW fired dozens of top personnel

Which of these do you think are incorrect, and why?

I take it it's very hard for you to admit that you don't understand what Gagrice & I said & the consequences about the so called diesel smog test. Let alone, what we have been saying since September 2015. However, it really doesn't matter going forward! The only question is what will be the approved fix/fixes, however FUBAR !? How do ( your so called ) " the facts" address that?

texases

I give up. Simple question, list of facts, no answer.

ruking1

Yes! A very simple answer! And, I asked a very simple question!

texases

??? no answer = 'simple answer'

stever

What matters is that car manufacturers have to pass an emissions test in order to sell vehicles.

You may not like the "so-called" test, agree with the test, think it's a joke, think it's not strong enough, whatever.

VW chose to cheat the test and admits it.

And yeah, now we're in the "what are they going to have to pay" phase.

ruking1

That might be true. History might say... false? Who knows where it's really @? GM's 50 cent ignition fix easy took a decade to even percolate.It is now going on its 2nd decade? The bankruptcy was 6 years ago in 2009. This issue actually KILLED people! GM with full government approvals were successful in parsing this issue to the GM bankruptcy portion, SEVERELY limiting GM's & labor unions financial downside, past & going forward. Obama POTUS has gone on record that the GM bailout was highlyprofitable to the US government, among other "achievements".

The "fix/s" for the covey of (2009 in my case) VW TDI's , ( if that has any relevance in this media circus atmosphere) is optimistically @ least another year away, now Jan 2017.

@ 01/2017, I would find it highly entertaining IF EPA/CARB were still working on approvals @ that time!! ( disapproving the approvals for resubmittals for final disapprovals)

You guys obviously have never worked on government projects!

stever

I dunno - outside of here, some financial reporting and some enviro mags (i.e., Grist), the issue seems pretty much off the radar. The never-ending election cycle will be sucking up a lot of oxygen for the next year.

ruking1

I'd be satisfied with the VW (affected diesels) buyouts. . Then, I would buy another round of VW diesels hoping that the process will start all over ! Right now, I'm waiting for a VW $1000 Goodwill package for the 12 VW Touareg TDI, having already received the $ 1,000 Goodwill package plus Roadside Assist for the TDI 2009 Jetta.

I can't even make this stuff up ! I didn't dream car choices could, would be this entertaining!

Mr_Shiftright

The diesel emissions test isn't "so called". It's very real, otherwise VW couldn't have constructed the software to cheat it.

ruking1

Mr_Shiftright said:

The diesel emissions test isn't "so called". It's very real, otherwise VW couldn't have constructed the software to cheat it.

You know Shifty, you can verify that I have never met you. By reputation, I do know of you as a car expert!

Since I & Gagrice have taken our TDI's to the so called smog test stations, multiple times and each seeming to have similar opinions, you may want to go to your local smog only test station to see why we say what we say!

Now I do not want to get any one of those folks in trouble, as we know EPA/CARB has been politicized to weaponized. So just ask them how much it would cost them to measure diesel emissions like they do gasser emissions to generate that emissions results paper that I & you are used to getting for our gassers. I was told during the last time that I went, it would cost a minimum of $50,000 . @ 50 per car it would take a minimum of 1,000 cars to BE, totally discounting the labor rate involved. So what is that investment figure currently? Keep in mind that even a HUGE dealer barely B/E on the volumes of smog tests it does for its customers.

henryn

ruking1 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

The diesel emissions test isn't "so called". It's very real, otherwise VW couldn't have constructed the software to cheat it.

You know Shifty, you can verify that I have never met you. By reputation, I do know of you as a car expert!

Since I & Gagerice have taken our TDI's to the so called smog test stations, multiple times and each seeming to have similar opinions, you may want to go to your local smog only test station to see why we say what we say!

I don't think I want to know "why we say what we say". I am reminded of a Jack Nicholson line from "As Good As It Gets". Yes, you know the one I'm thinking of.

ruking1

henryn said:

ruking1 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

The diesel emissions test isn't "so called". It's very real, otherwise VW couldn't have constructed the software to cheat it.

You know Shifty, you can verify that I have never met you. By reputation, I do know of you as a car expert!

Since I & Gagerice have taken our TDI's to the so called smog test stations, multiple times and each seeming to have similar opinions, you may want to go to your local smog only test station to see why we say what we say!

I don't think I want to know "why we say what we say". I am reminded of a Jack Nicholson line from "As Good As It Gets". Yes, you know the one I'm thinking of.

Yes, and there in lies the problem or the lack of understanding, or both ! So when one doesn't believe someone/ people who has/have actually gone through it, the fact of the matter is (ones-your) credibility is blown ! It's like: one doesn't want to be confused with the facts because ones mind is already made up ? So yes, I totally get it and understand it ! So that's why I ask what bearing/s does that have on the fix/fixes? Really you guys, I'm not going to see a dime of that potential $37,000 of possible penalties? Indeed give me $37,000 each and I'm out of two VW diesels !! That's hardly the sentiments/ actions of a zealot ?

Jack N, playing a US Marine Colonel @ GITMO had another good line (more like a soliloquy) in that Tom Cruise,Demi Moore, Gary Sinise drama/ thriller ! Again, I think you know which one it is ! Or Tom Cruise in Jack Reacher. "I came here to Bury the SOB! "

Slow diesel Newsday! ULSD spot NY Harbor $1.08. Gasoline $ 1.25. (Costco, Folsom, CA ) $2.05 ULSD, $2.13 RUG, $2.37 PUG.

gagrice

Mr_Shiftright said:

I don't see where owning a diesel is relevant to understanding an historical fact. VW rigged the test in their favor, and got busted. I don't own a diesel but I get it.

I don't think you do get it. Yes some engineers may have allowed the Bosch software to remain that disabled the emissions control. Yes the CEO fell on the sword, though with $millions to soften the fall. That does NOT make all VW the bad guy. No one died as a result of this software fiasco. My guess 99% of the VW workforce are innocent of any misdeeds. Yet diesel haters will paint all of VW as the bad company, which includes the entire work force.

I have not seen much by those diesel haters aimed at EPA/CARB for setting very high standards for JUST passenger diesels. Then believing they were doing as the company claimed. All cars today are controlled by computers. How do we know the hundreds of models of gassers are not pulling the same tricks?

How many gas cars have been taken out on the highway and tested? Most states don't even test for emissions. Millions of vehicles have had the smog stuff removed by the owners to improve performance and mileage. K&N sells an air filter for gas engines that will not pass the smog test. Has CARB stopped them from selling?

gagrice

texases saysVW cheated
VW got caught, confirmed by several tests run by several independent organizations
VW admitted many times they cheated
VW wrote off $12 billion in response to the expected problems
VW fired dozens of top personnel

Which of these do you think are incorrect, and why?

All of the above. VW is a corporation an inanimate entity. It cannot cheat.
I only know of one confirmed set of tests done. I am not even convinced that was done properly.
I assume some high ranking official said yes there is software that evades emissions testing. Likely not working at VW anymore.
VW did set aside some money to cover the costs involved. Big question if any of it will be an allowed as a "Write-off"?
As usual the media take a story they like and run with it. No confirmed number of those fired.

The German magazine is citing reports by Volkswagen, as well as by law firm Jones Day, and says the managers will likely be suspended. A VW spokesperson says “This number is without foundation.
Due to the ongoing investigation we will not reveal the number nor the names of possible persons concerned.”

http://www.wired.com/2015/10/dozens-of-managers-were-involved-in-vws-diesel-scandal/

We get it you hate diesels, not sure why you hang out here.

texases

I have nothing against diesels. I would consider one that meets the regs. I've owned VWs for 15 years and loved them. 

Several tests were run proving the cheat code. I just don't undersand why you two want to excuse VWs blatant cheating. It's been proven by testing and multiple testimonies of people involved beyond any reasonable doubt. 

If if your point is it wasn't that big a deal, ok, I can understand that point of view. 

ruking1

The problem is YOUR understanding that we, (to either of us) said we want to excuse VW. Neither of us said that! Now, we understand that YOU think we said that! So unetch that and correct understanding should come back!

ruking1

6.4 B gals of H20 in 24 hours ! ULSD spot $1.09, RUG $1.17

It must be a slow news day all the way around!

Here is one of the headings on the SOS/DD trek. http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/news/a40707/lake-tahoe-64-billion-gallons-water/

Merry Christmas to all our board readers & contributors!

henryn

"All of the above. VW is a corporation an inanimate entity. It cannot cheat. "

Interesting point of view. The United States Supreme Court disagrees with you about that. But that is too political, best left alone.

I'm going to drop this forum (diesels) from my favorites. No point in trying to argue or debate with people like this. See the rest of you (the sane ones!) over in CCBA and Cars & Conversations.

stever

>No one died as a result of this software fiasco.

That depends on whether you believe the epidemiological reports or not.

New Study Links VW’s Emissions Cheating to 60 Early Deaths (Wired)

If you don't believe big corp can cheat, I guess you don't believe big corp can kill us either.

Smoke 'em if you got 'em.

fintail

Yeah, corporations are people too, according to a mercifully failed politico. VW cheated, although the greatest error might not be the cheat, but not offering the proper bribes to buy regulations beforehand (as the golden rule applies), and by getting caught. VW should have known how to play the game in Belle Epoque Murka.

The death predictions are hard to believe.

I've heard that German TV reported that the eco-weenie lobbyist group DUH is now accusing a 5 year old C-class of violating emissions standards - apparently this is a CDi car, not a Bluetec car. Apparently they refused to release specifics about the violation or the car itself.

ruking1

It doesn't even pass the smell test ! Given in complete isolation from all the various factors, the diesel car study is suspect at best ! It doesn't even seem to account for the PVF being 95 to 97% gasser, gasser hybrid. Here is a cdc.gov point of departure. http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm
It also leaves out European results which they know is 50% plus diesel/less than 50% gas,gas hybrid.

Anecdotally, I have spent significant portions of my ( 6 year) military service in and around flight lines ! This has included many hours @ engine test stands up to full military power, under fighters run @ full military power, & bombers with 8 jet engines! This is to only mention a few. Trust me, I have been tested for lung cancer ( & the full range for things I was exposed to) with nada results! Now certainly this is no guarantee, even if I am planning to live be 120 years old !