What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

Mr_Shiftright

Well your imagination does get rather vivid at times about these things.

If there is such a thing as a "diesel hater" (I'd like to meet one and talk to him/her), then we'd have VW to thank for spawning them, wouldn't we?

If the EPA "hates" diesels, they should have hired VW to work for them. No agency has done more damage to the diesel's reputation since the German submarine fleet in WW I than VW has IMO.

(esoteric bit of history on the above: there's an unsubstantiated theory that Rudolf Diesel committed suicide--which he allegedly did by the way--because he was mortified at the carnage being caused by his invention. This theory however, makes no sense, since he died in 1913. The diesel engine, however, did give the German submarines an excellent cruising range, and were a lot safer than gasoline powered boats).

gagrice

So much for academic freedom in tax payer supported universities. Most legitimate scientists are afraid of losing their jobs, if they don't agree with the political establishment. That includes journalist who would report wrong doing. Glad some are happy to live in that repressive environment.

I assume some people here are in denial that Hien T. Tran lied about his PHD. Don't know what to tell you. It is fact even if MSM refuse to risk saying anything against the mighty CARB. I can guarantee if Hien T. Tran was not tied to the party in power, it would have been spread on every rag.

A year ago, high officials of the California Air Resources Board learned that the author of a statistical study on diesel soot effects had falsified his academic credentials.

The researcher, Hien Tran, acknowledged the deception and agreed to be demoted, but after his data were given another peer review, they remained the basis of highly controversial regulations that will cost owners of trucks, buses and other diesel-powered machinery millions of dollars to upgrade their engines. The Tran study concluded that diesel "particulate matter" was responsible for about 1,000 additional deaths each year.

Only recently, with the rules on the verge of final promulgation, did board officials formally acknowledge Tran's falsification, largely because one board member, cardiologist John Telles, did his own investigation and complained about an apparent cover-up.

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/tran-222324-board-carb.html

Mr_Shiftright

It's really irrelevant since studies around the world have long supported, and proven, the detrimental effects of diesel emissions on health. Neither the world, nor CARB, relies on one study.

Science stands or falls on its provability. The very essence of science is to disprove itself. Science constantly attacks its own ideas. You can't "fake" science for very long, as scientists relish the idea of disproving other scientists.

If a critic of some scientific idea cannot prove that he's right, then he loses, period.

That's why evolution has stood for over 150 years, and also why the "theory" that vaccines cause autism has failed.

And thanks to science, all that might change someday, too.

ruking1

The barrel of oil refinement ratios (of gasoline to diesel) & the needs, etc etc. have & will continues to dominate ! Indeed if the powers that be could wave their magic wands & fulfill their fantasies to get rid of both US & European diesel PVF, they would have a far higher diesel fuel inventory problem!! Diesel, as cheap as it is now would be even still far cheaper! That is just for starters!

If electrical energy sources (solar, wind, H20, etc, ) & PVF 's had any real viability, it simply would have already been a far higher % ratio choice, & for @ least 100 years!

SF, CA for ALL that implies, fell under the so called liberal spell and dismantled most the electrical buses infrastructure ! Keep in mind when the electrical busses were operating, electrical energy was dirt cheap to FREE!

houdini1

Mr_Shiftright said:

It's really irrelevant since studies around the world have long supported, and proven, the detrimental effects of diesel emissions on health. Neither the world, nor CARB, relies on one study.

Science stands or falls on its provability. The very essence of science is to disprove itself. Science constantly attacks its own ideas. You can't "fake" science for very long, as scientists relish the idea of disproving other scientists.

If a critic of some scientific idea cannot prove that he's right, then he loses, period.

That's why evolution has stood for over 150 years, and also why the "theory" that vaccines cause autism has failed.

And thanks to science, all that might change someday, too.

Irrelevant? The VW scandal is deadly serious, but the CARB scandal is irrelevant?

ruking1

It makes me wonder how people can say this stuff with a straight face! Of course the implication is gasoline has ZERO harmful effects!

Mr_Shiftright

No, it is irrelevant to claim that one study determines EPA regulations. That is simply not the case. And obviously, a history 50 years of emissions regulations in force in California pretty much declares that the effects of burning gasoline are harmful to human health.

ruking1

Slow diesel News Day, on this very Merry Christmas 2015! I hope everyone is having a very special celebration and making grand memories! ! It was nice to get the MB GLK 250BT to the freeway speeds it is optimized for! Will probably fill in Folsom,CA for $1.99 ULSD ($2.23 RUG/ $2.45 PUG) for another SOS/DD R/T trek. While probably nobody really cares, it's back to 36 mpg ! The youngest daughter was comparing the 12 VW Touareg TDI vs the 14 MB GLK 250 BT. Most of the diesel fans would not be surprised her hands down favorite is the 12 Touareg TDI. She's posting (a normal) 32/33 mpg! ( app 1,000 miles) , against 36 mpg for 150 miles.

gagrice

I wonder if we may be driving the last of a dying breed. So far MB is only offering the new GLC (GLK) with gas, yuck. Good news the MB GLE 300D is available. Downside comparably equipped to my Touareg is a whopping $14k price jump from what I paid. That is with the 4 cylinder diesel as they have dropped the V6 Bluetec. Be interesting to compare performance with the heavier GLE (ML) and the 2.1L diesel. It does have more torque than the V6 gas engine offered. Should be a great highway cruiser. Then if I am going to spend as much as buying a home in the Midwest, I may as well get the new GLS if it is offered with diesel. Still have three years before I need to think about replacing the Touareg TDI.

ruking1

That's actually a pretty far reaching question!? There are times that I'm not so sure if the diesel optimizes less than optimal gasser drive train technology or gassers are a less than optimum diesel drive train technology adaptation?
I would expect most non-diesel (gasser) owners to go: what is he talking about? Chevrolet Cruse GAS/tdi is a good case in point. Upshot the OEM had/continues to have issues making a more seamless transition. To cut to the chase, diesel premium is FAR higher than European diesel premiums.

Be that as it may, I am wondering if I'd be as happy with gasser VW Touaregs/MB GLK 350's!? The GLK 250 BT has the $500 less than gasser anomaly! So a loss of diesel options signals a significacant dumbing down ! Gasser owners for obvious reasons will probably not care, let alone notice (at any to all levels) . .

Mercedes-Benz, whether gas or diesel have always price their products for the so called European "luxury" segment, for lack of a better word. More importantly, whatever diesel model, they've had gas or vice versa. The diesel models of course have not all or always filtered into US markets.

While there is still choice , i've outlined anywhere from 11 to 13 items that would get me to switch back to gassers. Not than any gasser owners would care.

stever

gagrice said:

I wonder if we may be driving the last of a dying breed.

Kind of a self fulfilling cycle too. If diesels aren't offered and sales fall off, then the dealers will not bother with hiring techs with diesel certifications and those techs will go to pickup truck dealers or will skip passenger car repairs altogether.

@ruking1 is right - we often don't get the Euro diesels here for whatever reasons.

Mr_Shiftright

Here's a good article from the BBC on the various effects that governments, economics and automakers have had on the diesel car in Europe and the USA.

Why do American car buyers shy away from diesel?

Many people don't realize that the success of diesel cars in Europe was heavily influenced by government interventions--interventions we do not have in the US.

gagrice

Chevrolet Cruse GAS/tdi is a good case in point.

Just got a FB post from our fossil fuel hating buddy Rocky. He made the trip from Michigan to Iowa to see his kids today through Chicago. Trip average in his Cruze diesel was 54.4 MPG. He went from a diesel skeptic to a believer. At least until he can afford a Tesla.

I am wondering if I'd be as happy with gasser VW Touareg

Not even a chance. If I wanted a sluggish gas hog I would have kept the Sequoia. This says it for me.

"Some of the diesel cars can go 600, 700 miles on a single fill-up. That's a very high value for many consumers," says Allen Schaeffer

For me not much worse than going into a smelly gas station every 200-300 miles. It many times forced me to pay as much as a buck more per gallon. With with 600-700 mile range you only need to fuel up once a day traveling. Find a motel do the gas buddy routine and pick the lowest priced diesel in town after going out for dinner.

General Motors famously rushed diesel vehicles - in its Oldsmobile series - to market in the late 1970s and '80s with disastrous results.

GM has been on the leading edge of poor design many times. My 2005 GMC Sierra Hybrid was a POC. Dead people don't lie about faulty ignition switches. Likely my last GM vehicle.

Just like last winter RUG went up and diesel prices came down. Today several stations have diesel at $2.29 and the cheapest RUG is $2.69. I would have to make twice as many trips to fill up with my Sequoia. That adds an additional $6 to the cost of ownership.Or I could just pay the local price of $3.39 per gallon. To fill my Sequoia 25 gallon tank that is $17 more per tankful. No surprise why Rocky has fallen in love with his Cruze diesel, and the power is so much more usable according to him. I guess that must be why he wants US to be more like Europe. More diesel choices.

Mr_Shiftright

I'm going to make it a point to drive a Cruze diesel at my local (small) Chevy dealer.

slorenzen

" I guess that must be why he wants US to be more like Europe. More diesel choices."

You and I BOTH know that's not his reason for us being more like yurup.

I remember his rants. I bet he LOVES Bernie...

stever

Interesting blurb posted by @henryn about the convergence of gas/diesel car prices in the US.

texases

Hmmm...I always thought that MB diesels were close to, if not cheaper than, the gasser versions, so I'm having trouble with the basic idea of 'convergence' based on MB prices.

imidazol97

US sues vw:

The Justice Department sued Volkswagen on Monday over emissions-cheating software found in nearly 600,000 vehicles sold in the United States.

The civil complaint against the German automaker, filed on behalf of the Environmental Protection Agency in U.S. District Court in Detroit, alleges the company illegally installed software designed to make its diesel engines pass federal emissions standards while undergoing laboratory testing. The vehicles then switched off those measures to boost performance in real-world driving conditions, resulting in greenhouse gas emissions up to 40 times greater than federal environmental standards.
"Car manufacturers that fail to properly certify their cars and that defeat emission control systems breach the public trust, endanger public health and disadvantage competitors," said John C. Cruden, the assistant attorney general for the Justice Department's Environment and Natural Resources Division.
... The company is negotiating a massive mandatory recall with U.S. regulators and potentially faces more than $18 billion in fines for violations of the federal Clean Air Act.

Mr_Shiftright

I think VW just knocked one leg off the table that the entire U.S. diesel passenger car market sits on.

On the other hand, GM/GMC just rolled out their new Canyon/Colorado diesel pickups.

andres3

So CARB uses researchers with about as much credibility as the Mexican and Colombian drug cartel kingpins. Not really "news" there, as if you follow the red-light camera and speed camera studies governments have used previously, you'd know this is par for the course. They prefer research that offers support for their pre-ordained political motivations, rather than authentic science.

jpp75

gagrice said:

I wonder if we may be driving the last of a dying breed. So far MB is only offering the new GLC (GLK) with gas, yuck. Good news the MB GLE 300D is available. Downside comparably equipped to my Touareg is a whopping $14k price jump from what I paid. That is with the 4 cylinder diesel as they have dropped the V6 Bluetec. Be interesting to compare performance with the heavier GLE (ML) and the 2.1L diesel. It does have more torque than the V6 gas engine offered. Should be a great highway cruiser. Then if I am going to spend as much as buying a home in the Midwest, I may as well get the new GLS if it is offered with diesel. Still have three years before I need to think about replacing the Touareg TDI.

Why do you anticipate replacing the Touareg in 3 years?

stever

I dunno, kind of looks like a tank (and this from a minivan fan). Your Touareg just looks sportier or something.

andres3

I'm in the San Diego area and might be in the market for a well kept used Touareg TDI in 3 years time. Color? Year? Anticipated mileage in 3 years?

Assuming the CARB [non-permissible content removed]'s let you sell it legally.

Mr_Shiftright

The science is good enough that no one has ever been able to refute it scientifically.

carboy21

I was just about to buy a Passat TDI a couple of weeks before the VW scandal hit the news on a friday evening. I was discussing online discounts with the local VW dealer and he was not prompt in his emails and I missed the chance to buy the TDI.
How I wish I had bought it . I wanted a long range interstate cruiser with almost 800 miles between refueling. Kinda like the new Boeing 777 which flies non-stop for 14 hrs without refueling
I hope the eco-nazo EPA and CARB allow the TDIs back into the market. There was no economical car in the market comparable to a Passat TDI.
I would not throw my hard earned money after the BMW and Benz vehicles as I have no ego issues

stevedebi

carboy21 said:

I was just about to buy a Passat TDI a couple of weeks before the VW scandal hit the news on a friday evening. I was discussing online discounts with the local VW dealer and he was not prompt in his emails and I missed the chance to buy the TDI.
How I wish I had bought it . I wanted a long range interstate cruiser with almost 800 miles between refueling. Kinda like the new Boeing 777 which flies non-stop for 14 hrs without refueling
I hope the eco-nazo EPA and CARB allow the TDIs back into the market. There was no economical car in the market comparable to a Passat TDI.
I would not throw my hard earned money after the BMW and Benz vehicles as I have no ego issues

So far as I know they can still be sold used. Maybe you could find a private owner willing to part with one.

gagrice

For all you wishful buyers, my 2013 Touareg TDI will NOT be for sale in the near future. I have 4 years or 48k miles full BtoB warranty with all service including brakes. I am at 27k miles and still in love with the vehicle. The absolute only thing I would change is the NAV mapping software. If I bought another diesel in the future it would likely be another Touareg. Overall mileage to date is 26.4 MPG as kept on Fuelly.com.

Any anticipation would be if and when I do get ready for a new diesel, the choices may or may not be as good as they are currently. Oh and I think the Touareg is the best looking of the choices with the Jeep Grand Cherokee 2nd. The Touareg was also the winner of the matchup for that year.

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2014-jeep-grand-cherokee-summit-ecodiesel-4x4-vs-2013-volkswagen-touareg-tdi-2013-mercedes-benz-ml350-bluetec-4matic-2013-porsche-cayenne-diesel-2013-bmw-x5-xdrive35d-final-scoring-performance-data-and-complete-specs-page-7

stevedebi

gagrice said:

For all you wishful buyers, my 2013 Touareg TDI will NOT be for sale in the near future. I have 4 years or 48k miles full BtoB warranty with all service including brakes. I am at 27k miles and still in love with the vehicle. The absolute only thing I would change is the NAV mapping software. If I bought another diesel in the future it would likely be another Touareg. Overall mileage to date is 26.4 MPG as kept on Fuelly.com.

Any anticipation would be if and when I do get ready for a new diesel, the choices may or may not be as good as they are currently. Oh and I think the Touareg is the best looking of the choices with the Jeep Grand Cherokee 2nd. The Touareg was also the winner of the matchup for that year.

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2014-jeep-grand-cherokee-summit-ecodiesel-4x4-vs-2013-volkswagen-touareg-tdi-2013-mercedes-benz-ml350-bluetec-4matic-2013-porsche-cayenne-diesel-2013-bmw-x5-xdrive35d-final-scoring-performance-data-and-complete-specs-page-7

Yep, the VW nav is not that good. Our Ford C-Max has a better system.

gagrice

The NAV with 8 inch screen is very nice. It is the stinking NAVTeq Software that was 5 years old when we bought the vehicle. No updates available. It was the same crap software in my Sequoia. Unless a NAV uses Google maps live I would question it being worth buying.

Mr_Shiftright

Really? No updates even if you pay? Wow, that's just unacceptable.

carboy21

Paying for NAV in modern cars is foolish. They will be offered as standard very soon just like the back-up camera.

gagrice

Mr_Shiftright said:

Really? No updates even if you pay? Wow, that's just unacceptable.

NAVTeq is supposed to supply an update every two years. The date on my NAV software is 2011. The SUV is a 2013. And as of December, no new updates available from NAVTeq. You know it belongs to Microsoft and they have done nothing since taking it as part of the Nokia buyout. I would join a class action lawsuit against NavTeq/Microsoft. For all the good it would do. Where is the Feds when consumers get screwed? Nowhere to be found.

Microsoft bought Nokia today for $7.2 billion dollars. Nokia, you will recall, bought Navteq in 2007 for $8.1 billion in what was hailed at the time as pivotal move by Nokia into location based services.

But as Horace Dediu pointed out, by late 2012 Navteq had been losing about $1 billion a year for Nokia and the purchase effectively had cost Nokia’s stock holders $11 billion in total since it had been acquired.

http://blumenthals.com/blog/2013/09/03/microsoft-buys-nokia-and-gets-navteq-for-free-or-less/

stevedebi

carboy21 said:

Paying for NAV in modern cars is foolish. They will be offered as standard very soon just like the back-up camera.

Unfortunately, it is bundled with VW. It came with our SE model. We considered the base model, but it was lacking some features we wanted, like keyless entry.

stever

"In the face of tightening emission standards, the practicality of diesel engines is waning. The latest from Range Rover, however, demonstrates the benefits of the technology

It’s all pretty marvelous. So let’s call this application of Rudolf Diesel’s principles what it is: the technical high point of combustion-ignition in passenger cars, the beginning of sunset."

Range Rover Td6: Last Gasp for Diesel? (Free WSJ link at time of posting)

Mr_Shiftright

See? That's the height of the ridiculous. An article touting the fuel economy of a vehicle costing $103,000 MSRP.

Unlike a Tesla buyer, who also is unlikely to be holding his cup out and asking for "spare gas" at the local 76 station, the Range Rover owner can't fall back on "tech status" or "new adaptor" prestige among friends and family. He's just someone who owns a diesel.

carboy21

See? That's the height of the ridiculous. An article touting the fuel economy of a vehicle costing $103,000 MSRP.

That is why VW posed a threat to these designer car makers

Mr_Shiftright

Every carmaker is a threat to every other carmaker, no?

fintail

The Range Rover uses "new Range Rover" status to impress his friends. They seem to sell every one they bring in to this area, so something is working.

gagrice

Price, as tested: $103,925

That puts it price ahead of the GLS diesel. Can it compete is the question? I never really gave the Brits much thought outside of the old standard defender. The rest are for the Hollywood crowd in my Umble opinion.

carboy21

Near my place, a soccer mom brings her progeny to school in a Mercedes G series SUV. That is all the off-road she will ever go on

Average Price Paid $113,597
edmunds.images.dmotorworks.com/DIRPA009/FX235706_8_large.jpg

gagrice

I see a black "G" at the supermarket near me on a regular basis. It has the ugliest Bling wheels you can imagine. Never have seen the driver. Well Oprah owns one so that could explain why someone would want one. Now if it had a diesel offered here, I could be interested. Though not likely at the price tag. I will try to snap a pic next time I see it. Always shiny bright so probably gets little use from the garage to the supermarket etc. Rarely see one like this.

fintail

Go to Europe, Gs are used as farm and commercial vehicles there. Almost always a diesel too.

Which is about the only way you will get one here, go to Europe and privately import an old one. 25 years old, no worries about eco-paranoia.

Mr_Shiftright

Range Rovers are very capable off-roaders, if you dare to scratch it up. I would think it a perfect match for a diesel engine.

I've always thought that diesels in America at least should be in large vehicles, not small ones. It's hard for a diesel to put up significantly better MPG next to a small hybrid or efficient gas engine, (Mini 39mpg, Nissan Versa 40 mpg, Prius V 40 mpg, Golf Sportwagon TDI 43 mpg) but it's easy to compete with a gas engine in a larger SUV.

carboy21

Range Rover is an expensive costume car. I would take Toyota Land Cruiser any day if I wanted to do real off-roading instead driving it only to the school and Mall in a suburban utopia.

Mr_Shiftright

We beg to differ on that one. The Range Rover can do anything a Land Cruiser can do. It may be something of a bling car, but it's not a poseur. I suppose for a diesel though you'd want the Ford Super Duty.

carboy21

Mr_Shiftright said:

We beg to differ on that one. The Range Rover can do anything a Land Cruiser can do. It may be something of a bling car, but it's not a poseur. I suppose for a diesel though you'd want the Ford Super Duty.

Sales in Australia , Africa and Middle East prove otherwise. Most Range Rovers are parked in Suburban Mac Garages.

andres3

carboy21 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

We beg to differ on that one. The Range Rover can do anything a Land Cruiser can do. It may be something of a bling car, but it's not a poseur. I suppose for a diesel though you'd want the Ford Super Duty.

Sales in Australia , Africa and Middle East prove otherwise. Most Range Rovers are parked in Suburban Mac Garages.

Going to side with @carboy21 on this argument. A Range Rover may be capable, WHEN it is working and functional. Since I've had an unreliable car in the past, that question of when can be spotty. Range Rover has a reputation for being very unreliable, while the Land Cruiser is indestructible according to some. I think this may explain the worldwide popularity of the Land Cruiser.

andres3

Mr_Shiftright said:

Range Rovers are very capable off-roaders, if you dare to scratch it up. I would think it a perfect match for a diesel engine.

I've always thought that diesels in America at least should be in large vehicles, not small ones. It's hard for a diesel to put up significantly better MPG next to a small hybrid or efficient gas engine, (Mini 39mpg, Nissan Versa 40 mpg, Prius V 40 mpg, Golf Sportwagon TDI 43 mpg) but it's easy to compete with a gas engine in a larger SUV.

I think the Golf Sportwagen is larger and provides more utility than the other examples, however. The regular GOLF TDI would be a closer comparison; not sure if that makes the fuel economy gap much larger though.

fintail

I'll take a diesel G or a Unimog with highway gearing, move over

houdini1

Land Cruiser, no contest.