What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

ruking1

Mr_Shiftright said:

Remember when homes used heating oil? That was essentially diesel wasn't it?

The answer is yes and no ! No for the longest time because the sulfur ppm was way higher then diesel fuel. Yes to the extent it is 15 ppm sulfur nominally delivered @ 5 to 10 ppm.

xwesx

Mr_Shiftright said:

Remember when homes used heating oil? That was essentially diesel wasn't it?

Homes use heating oil?! I never would have guessed!

Gary, I feel for you on that heating bill.

Mine is way, way down this year compared to the past many. At the $2.73/gal I paid for #1 in August, my annual 650 gallons works out to an average of about $150 per month for heat (that's about 32% less than two or three years ago). It is pretty darn clean, though, since I have a well-tuned condensing system. When it runs, the exhaust out of the house looks (appearance-wise) no more significant than a family sedan's, and most (emphasis on most) of the particulate (not much to start with) and acids drain right back down the stack into the neutralizer canister before being discharged as pH 7 water into my septic system.

I have made a lot of silly decisions on this house project, but our choice of heating system was definitely not one of them!

ruking1

(Hydronic heating, house size similar to Gagrice's but 2 stories ) January followed by December is normally my highest monthly natural gas use. This year Jan 16 billis approximately 176 therms for $182. but Tahoe, CA has real winters! Electricity use (again highest per mo use followed by December) at the same times about 442 kWh .@ app $77.

stevedebi

texases said:

stever said:

I wish all you fed up people would dump your houses and leave.

Housing costs make it unaffordable for me to move there and a big housing glut would help slash prices.

VW to propose diesel emissions solution to EPA next week (Fox)

Maybe the solution will be DEF - what's that, urea in solution?

Yeah, that's what DEF is. Other articles talk about a 'revised catalytic converter'. DEF would be HUGE $$ to add, a cat just BIG $$.

From what the article said, they are talking about adding a different cat and a DEF system.

ruking1

Yeah the cost of DEF is far from huge! I have posted the cpmd: DEF many times. So if one wants to persist in the high cost fantasy, & lies, there's not much I can do about it ! The truth really sucks but not the way that he had envisioned

texases

Not the DEF fluid cost, the cost of installing a from-scratch DEF system, that's what would be HUGE.

ruking1

Point/s being? 2. What is HUGE?

texases

OK, now your just messin' with me. I post that installing a DEF system would be huge $$, you state it's 'far from huge'. Point being: obvious!

ruking1

I'm not messing with you at all ! Your points are not obvious at all, otherwise I wouldn't ask ! I perceive that your definition of HUGE is different from my definition. So the best is to use real figures, which you have reluctantly almost never have done and will continue to NOT do !

So if I get a sub $.04 cost per mile: depreciation (in lieu of a new DEF system ) buyback offer, I'll be happy camper! I personally do not want a Frankensteined car. If they Frankenstein it, I would want a new 4 year/60,000 mile warranty. Practically, if they did the DEF operation today, that would warranty the vehicle to about 165,000 miles.

texases

You think the cost to retrofit a VW with a DEF system would be anything other than huge? Tanks, pump, sensors, cats, etc, etc? OBVIOUS!

And please drop the "lies", unless your intent is truly trollish...

ruking1

Real numbers! No, lies are an apt description! No trolling here! The real truth @ that this writing: TBD by EPA! (US markets)

texases

Name one lie.

Mr_Shiftright

I would think a DEF retrofit would be quite expensive, what with all the plumbing, the tanks, new wiring harness and changes to the ECM.

Michaell

Mr_Shiftright said:

I would think a DEF retrofit would be quite expensive, what with all the plumbing, the tanks, new wiring harness and changes to the ECM.

The open question is - how much do you think it would cost to do this?

I'll put the question out to everyone - give us your best guess on what adding a DEF system to a VW would cost.

C'mon - guesses are 3 for a (virtual) quarter.

texases

My guess - the all in cost, including all the development, testing, design, production, and installation, but not any fines, or lost sales, or lost value of VW stock, or paybacks to owners, or dealers (wow, the list goes on and on), would be about $3,000 per car for a DEF system, maybe $1,000 if it just turns out to need a cat.

Mr_Shiftright

I think he's about right at $3,000, if it's done say as a retrofit at the dealer. If VW does it prior to shipping, could be less.

ruking1

So was that so hard?

texases

Yeah, I was talking about the 'fix' for existing cars. Way less to design and build them that way from the start.

ruking1

I have read costs for the new 2.0L TDI's with the new DEF systems added app $500.

Michaell

Mr_Shiftright said:

I think he's about right at $3,000, if it's done say as a retrofit at the dealer. If VW does it prior to shipping, could be less.

ruking1 said:

I have read costs for the new 2.0L TDI's with the new DEF systems added app $500.

So, the fix to existing cars could run several thousand dollars (estimated).

Will it be mandatory, or will owners have the choice to update their engine systems?

I can see the state of CA making it mandatory for all VW TDI's registered in the state.

stever

I'd guess the retrofit would run about $1,500 a car, tops. Maybe "just" $1,200.

Filled up the tank last month - propane was $1.79 a gallon.

gagrice

VW cost controllers wouldn't approve the AdBlue solution because it would add 300 euros ($335 US) to the cost of the vehicle. Bernhard and Krebs left the same year that Bosch advised VW about the software, two years before the engine went into production.

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/09/30/vw-diesel-fix-would-have-cost-335-per-vehicle/

ruking1

Yes, so I am sure the various scenario mixes have already been analyzed ! Now it's Texas hold 'em with the EPA/CARB!

Slow diesel News Day! ULSD @ $2.07, RUG @ $2.33, PUG @ $2.57!

Mr_Shiftright

You bet it'll be mandatory, I mean for VW. Now if you mean, will California force owners to do it if VW refuses to do it? I don't think so, (probably not even legal) but they may stamp each car with an ID exemption plate. That in turn might turn out to be a stigmata of sorts for resale. --"oh, that's one of the dirty ones". I'm just guessing about that--I have no idea how it'll spin out.

I don't think people who don't live in California get this---the environment is the equivalent of a church in Middle America. At least in the major metro areas. Literally.

ruking1

Mr_Shiftright said:

You bet it'll be mandatory, I mean for VW. Now if you mean, will California force owners to do it if VW refuses to do it? I don't think so, (probably not even legal) but they may stamp each car with an ID exemption plate. That in turn might turn out to be a stigmata of sorts for resale. --"oh, that's one of the dirty ones". I'm just guessing about that--I have no idea how it'll spin out.

I don't think people who don't live in California get this---the environment is the equivalent of a church in Middle America. At least in the major metro areas. Literally.

Again you acknowledge agreement! I have been saying all along that the environmental thing /climate change is the defacto state religion

carboy21

Mr_Shiftright said:

I don't think people who don't live in California get this---the environment is the equivalent of a church in Middle America. At least in the major metro areas. Literally.

And I don't live in CA but in PA and I get it.
But for the Kalifornians , it is only their environment.
Get Electricity and Lithium batteries from other states

gagrice

Mr_Shiftright said:

You bet it'll be mandatory, I mean for VW. Now if you mean, will California force owners to do it if VW refuses to do it? I don't think so, (probably not even legal) but they may stamp each car with an ID exemption plate. That in turn might turn out to be a stigmata of sorts for resale. --"oh, that's one of the dirty ones". I'm just guessing about that--I have no idea how it'll spin out.

I don't think people who don't live in California get this---the environment is the equivalent of a church in Middle America. At least in the major metro areas. Literally.

It was not that long ago we had the 49 state cars, that could not be licensed new in CA. My 1999 Suburban was bought in Idaho and not equipped with CA emissions equipment. I was an Alaska resident so licensed it with AK plates. When I traded it on the 2005 GMC Sierra Hybrid the dealer did not say anything about it.

gagrice

stever said:

I'd guess the retrofit would run about $1,500 a car, tops. Maybe "just" $1,200.

Filled up the tank last month - propane was $1.79 a gallon.

Everything in CA is higher priced. Funny thing Costco will fill your RV or BBQ tanks for under $2 last time I saw the sign out. The dealers know they have you with a permanent rental tank that can only be filled by the company you have a contract with.

stever

You can buy your own propane tank here if you wish. The rental on ours is $60 a year.

"California regulators on Tuesday rejected Volkswagen's recall plan for some of the German automaker's most popular diesel models that used software to intentionally deceive government emissions tests, including the Beetle, Jetta, Golf and Passat."

California regulators reject Volkswagen recall plan (wrcbtv.com)

ruking1

Absolutely and wholely predictable! Disapproved ! Resubmit it in 90 days for final disapproval!

gagrice

stever said:

You can buy your own propane tank here if you wish. The rental on ours is $60 a year.

"California regulators on Tuesday rejected Volkswagen's recall plan for some of the German automaker's most popular diesel models that used software to intentionally deceive government emissions tests, including the Beetle, Jetta, Golf and Passat."

California regulators reject Volkswagen recall plan (wrcbtv.com)

Looks like VW won the first round. More time given by CARB. It may be setting up for a Mexican standoff. So far all it has cost VW is play money to make the owners & dealers happy. Will McCarthy buckle face to face against a very persuasive CEO?

stever

Nothing new after a meet and greet between VW and the EPA.

Volkswagen, EPA Fail to Break Impasse in Emissions-Cheating Scandal (WSJ registration link)

Anyone notice much in the auto show news out of Detroit about diesels? I'm visiting family and am behind in my reading.

fintail

Today's smelly diesel - FedEx truck. Under the "business friendly" exemption, no doubt.

Mr_Shiftright

ruking1 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

You bet it'll be mandatory, I mean for VW. Now if you mean, will California force owners to do it if VW refuses to do it? I don't think so, (probably not even legal) but they may stamp each car with an ID exemption plate. That in turn might turn out to be a stigmata of sorts for resale. --"oh, that's one of the dirty ones". I'm just guessing about that--I have no idea how it'll spin out.

I don't think people who don't live in California get this---the environment is the equivalent of a church in Middle America. At least in the major metro areas. Literally.

Again you acknowledge agreement! I have been saying all along that the environmental thing /climate change is the defacto state religion

Not at all. Religion generally requires that one never changes one's mind...science requires that you must be prepared to throw out everything you thought was true....but only when you a better explanation and better science. In this regard we are at polar opposites in how we regard California's position on environmental matters.

California set a quantitative standard. It didn't ask VW to "believe" anything. VW couldn't meet the standard so it cheated. Other companies met the standard using their brains.

ruking1

Mr_Shiftright said:

ruking1 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

You bet it'll be mandatory, I mean for VW. Now if you mean, will California force owners to do it if VW refuses to do it? I don't think so, (probably not even legal) but they may stamp each car with an ID exemption plate. That in turn might turn out to be a stigmata of sorts for resale. --"oh, that's one of the dirty ones". I'm just guessing about that--I have no idea how it'll spin out.

I don't think people who don't live in California get this---the environment is the equivalent of a church in Middle America. At least in the major metro areas. Literally.

Again you acknowledge agreement! I have been saying all along that the environmental thing /climate change is the defacto state religion

Not at all. Religion generally requires that one never changes one's mind...science requires that you must be prepared to throw out everything you thought was true....but only when you a better explanation and better science. In this regard we are at polar opposites in how we regard California's position on environmental matters.

California set a quantitative standard. It didn't ask VW to "believe" anything. VW couldn't meet the standard so it cheated. Other companies met the standard using their brains.

Well no, & no & yes & no! Now you might think we are @ polar opposites!

That quantitative standard is routinely granted huge exemptions that you could literally drive huge trucks, huge ships and planes through. Not to mention exemptions to off road construction & agricultural etc,etc equipment! Nice try though !
Gy

ruking1

Slow diesel New Day! at Folsom CA, $ 2.05 ULSD,$2.31 RUG, $ 2.55 PUG!

Mr_Shiftright

ruking1 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

ruking1 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

You bet it'll be mandatory, I mean for VW. Now if you mean, will California force owners to do it if VW refuses to do it? I don't think so, (probably not even legal) but they may stamp each car with an ID exemption plate. That in turn might turn out to be a stigmata of sorts for resale. --"oh, that's one of the dirty ones". I'm just guessing about that--I have no idea how it'll spin out.

I don't think people who don't live in California get this---the environment is the equivalent of a church in Middle America. At least in the major metro areas. Literally.

Again you acknowledge agreement! I have been saying all along that the environmental thing /climate change is the defacto state religion

Not at all. Religion generally requires that one never changes one's mind...science requires that you must be prepared to throw out everything you thought was true....but only when you a better explanation and better science. In this regard we are at polar opposites in how we regard California's position on environmental matters.

California set a quantitative standard. It didn't ask VW to "believe" anything. VW couldn't meet the standard so it cheated. Other companies met the standard using their brains.

Well no, & no & yes & no! Now you might think we are @ polar opposites!

That quantitative standard is routinely granted huge exemptions that you could literally drive huge trucks, huge ships and planes through. Not to mention exemptions to off road construction & agricultural etc,etc equipment! Nice try though !
Gy

If diesel emissions were stricter you'd call them draconian; if they have exemptions you now call them hypocritical. Perhaps you are really an anarchist at heart when it comes to environmental laws?

ruking1

Mr_Shiftright said:

ruking1 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

ruking1 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

You bet it'll be mandatory, I mean for VW. Now if you mean, will California force owners to do it if VW refuses to do it? I don't think so, (probably not even legal) but they may stamp each car with an ID exemption plate. That in turn might turn out to be a stigmata of sorts for resale. --"oh, that's one of the dirty ones". I'm just guessing about that--I have no idea how it'll spin out.

I don't think people who don't live in California get this---the environment is the equivalent of a church in Middle America. At least in the major metro areas. Literally.

Again you acknowledge agreement! I have been saying all along that the environmental thing /climate change is the defacto state religion

Not at all. Religion generally requires that one never changes one's mind...science requires that you must be prepared to throw out everything you thought was true....but only when you a better explanation and better science. In this regard we are at polar opposites in how we regard California's position on environmental matters.

California set a quantitative standard. It didn't ask VW to "believe" anything. VW couldn't meet the standard so it cheated. Other companies met the standard using their brains.

Well no, & no & yes & no! Now you might think we are @ polar opposites!

That quantitative standard is routinely granted huge exemptions that you could literally drive huge trucks, huge ships and planes through. Not to mention exemptions to off road construction & agricultural etc,etc equipment! Nice try though !
Gy

If diesel emissions were stricter you'd call them draconian; if they have exemptions you now call them hypocritical. Perhaps you are really an anarchist at heart when it comes to environmental laws?

In light of the realities, your response is totally laughable! The (shipping) emissions output, which is totally unmitigated @ the Port of Oakland (near you) exponentially exceeds the whole US PVF (269.3 M ) emissions output! !

Mr_Shiftright

EPA has numerous regulations in place for marine diesels. If your point is that international commercial shipping is much larger than passenger car diesel sales, that's pretty obvious. McDonald's sells more french fries than gourmet French restaurants.

stever

"Shares in French carmaker Renault have slumped on the Paris stock exchange after the revelation that fraud investigators have been looking at the way it uses exhaust emissions technology.

Police examined parts and factories in an operation which followed an earlier investigation by the French government.

But Renault insisted investigators had found "no evidence of a defeat device equipping Renault vehicles".


Renault Shares Dive After Police Raid On Factories (sky.com)

French government reassures Renault investors there is 'no emissions fraud' (theguardian.com)

ruking1

Mr_Shiftright said:

ruking1 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

ruking1 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

You bet it'll be mandatory, I mean for VW. Now if you mean, will California force owners to do it if VW refuses to do it? I don't think so, (probably not even legal) but they may stamp each car with an ID exemption plate. That in turn might turn out to be a stigmata of sorts for resale. --"oh, that's one of the dirty ones". I'm just guessing about that--I have no idea how it'll spin out.

I don't think people who don't live in California get this---the environment is the equivalent of a church in Middle America. At least in the major metro areas. Literally.

Again you acknowledge agreement! I have been saying all along that the environmental thing /climate change is the defacto state religion

Not at all. Religion generally requires that one never changes one's mind...science requires that you must be prepared to throw out everything you thought was true....but only when you a better explanation and better science. In this regard we are at polar opposites in how we regard California's position on environmental matters.

California set a quantitative standard. It didn't ask VW to "believe" anything. VW couldn't meet the standard so it cheated. Other companies met the standard using their brains.

Well no, & no & yes & no! Now you might think we are @ polar opposites!

That quantitative standard is routinely granted huge exemptions that you could literally drive huge trucks, huge ships and planes through. Not to mention exemptions to off road construction & agricultural etc,etc equipment! Nice try though !
Gy

If diesel emissions were stricter you'd call them draconian; if they have exemptions you now call them hypocritical. Perhaps you are really an anarchist at heart when it comes to environmental laws?

Let's see, you want to call me an anarchist (@ heart) when I point out the REAL anarchists policies? They don't even believe their own narratives! Like I have been saying, I can't even make this stuff up !

ruking1

stever said:

"Shares in French carmaker Renault have slumped on the Paris stock exchange after the revelation that fraud investigators have been looking at the way it uses exhaust emissions technology.

Police examined parts and factories in an operation which followed an earlier investigation by the French government.

But Renault insisted investigators had found "no evidence of a defeat device equipping Renault vehicles".


Renault Shares Dive After Police Raid On Factories (sky.com)

French government reassures Renault investors there is 'no emissions fraud' (theguardian.com)

This is just another example of what I've been saying all along, that they really want to sweep the VW diesel gate under the rug because it is more common than just diesels & just VW!

Again this is another example of large national government, large labor unions & large crony capitalism in collusion : like VW, GM, etc.

Mr_Shiftright

They aren't in colusion--they generally hate each other. l

andres3

Mr_Shiftright said:

You bet it'll be mandatory, I mean for VW. Now if you mean, will California force owners to do it if VW refuses to do it? I don't think so, (probably not even legal) but they may stamp each car with an ID exemption plate. That in turn might turn out to be a stigmata of sorts for resale. --"oh, that's one of the dirty ones". I'm just guessing about that--I have no idea how it'll spin out.

I don't think people who don't live in California get this---the environment is the equivalent of a church in Middle America. At least in the major metro areas. Literally.

People in CA also believe in conservative fiscal policy (granted, the minority), and I think knowledge that a "dirty one" gets better miles per gallon when gas prices spike again (and they will), will be a stigmata of greater resale value, not less.

Mr_Shiftright

I don't expect they will get better MPG--no reason to presume so, since they are putting out more power in their "tainted" state. Some people will care, some won't. I wouldn't care if I bought one that was retro-fitted. I wouldn't buy one though until all this is resolved one way or the other.

andres3

Mr_Shiftright said:

ruking1 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

ruking1 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

You bet it'll be mandatory, I mean for VW. Now if you mean, will California force owners to do it if VW refuses to do it? I don't think so, (probably not even legal) but they may stamp each car with an ID exemption plate. That in turn might turn out to be a stigmata of sorts for resale. --"oh, that's one of the dirty ones". I'm just guessing about that--I have no idea how it'll spin out.

I don't think people who don't live in California get this---the environment is the equivalent of a church in Middle America. At least in the major metro areas. Literally.

Again you acknowledge agreement! I have been saying all along that the environmental thing /climate change is the defacto state religion

Not at all. Religion generally requires that one never changes one's mind...science requires that you must be prepared to throw out everything you thought was true....but only when you a better explanation and better science. In this regard we are at polar opposites in how we regard California's position on environmental matters.

California set a quantitative standard. It didn't ask VW to "believe" anything. VW couldn't meet the standard so it cheated. Other companies met the standard using their brains.

Well no, & no & yes & no! Now you might think we are @ polar opposites!

That quantitative standard is routinely granted huge exemptions that you could literally drive huge trucks, huge ships and planes through. Not to mention exemptions to off road construction & agricultural etc,etc equipment! Nice try though !
Gy

If diesel emissions were stricter you'd call them draconian; if they have exemptions you now call them hypocritical. Perhaps you are really an anarchist at heart when it comes to environmental laws?

How about applying those "quantitative scientifically derived" hard numbers equally across the board with zero exemptions. It is fair for all as it is equal for all. It isn't draconian unless the numbers are draconian and religion rather than real true science.

andres3

ruking1 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

ruking1 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

You bet it'll be mandatory, I mean for VW. Now if you mean, will California force owners to do it if VW refuses to do it? I don't think so, (probably not even legal) but they may stamp each car with an ID exemption plate. That in turn might turn out to be a stigmata of sorts for resale. --"oh, that's one of the dirty ones". I'm just guessing about that--I have no idea how it'll spin out.

I don't think people who don't live in California get this---the environment is the equivalent of a church in Middle America. At least in the major metro areas. Literally.

Again you acknowledge agreement! I have been saying all along that the environmental thing /climate change is the defacto state religion

Not at all. Religion generally requires that one never changes one's mind...science requires that you must be prepared to throw out everything you thought was true....but only when you a better explanation and better science. In this regard we are at polar opposites in how we regard California's position on environmental matters.

California set a quantitative standard. It didn't ask VW to "believe" anything. VW couldn't meet the standard so it cheated. Other companies met the standard using their brains.

Well no, & no & yes & no! Now you might think we are @ polar opposites!

That quantitative standard is routinely granted huge exemptions that you could literally drive huge trucks, huge ships and planes through. Not to mention exemptions to off road construction & agricultural etc,etc equipment! Nice try though !
Gy

@ruking1 makes an excellent point here. Standards are not Standards if not applied equally across the board. Why should planes or boats have different standards than automobiles after all. This would be even more true for allowing trucks from other Countries under different standards to cross our borders; let's close the border before we close VW!

ruking1

andres3 said:

ruking1 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

ruking1 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

You bet it'll be mandatory, I mean for VW. Now if you mean, will California force owners to do it if VW refuses to do it? I don't think so, (probably not even legal) but they may stamp each car with an ID exemption plate. That in turn might turn out to be a stigmata of sorts for resale. --"oh, that's one of the dirty ones". I'm just guessing about that--I have no idea how it'll spin out.

I don't think people who don't live in California get this---the environment is the equivalent of a church in Middle America. At least in the major metro areas. Literally.

Again you acknowledge agreement! I have been saying all along that the environmental thing /climate change is the defacto state religion

Not at all. Religion generally requires that one never changes one's mind...science requires that you must be prepared to throw out everything you thought was true....but only when you a better explanation and better science. In this regard we are at polar opposites in how we regard California's position on environmental matters.

California set a quantitative standard. It didn't ask VW to "believe" anything. VW couldn't meet the standard so it cheated. Other companies met the standard using their brains.

Well no, & no & yes & no! Now you might think we are @ polar opposites!

That quantitative standard is routinely granted huge exemptions that you could literally drive huge trucks, huge ships and planes through. Not to mention exemptions to off road construction & agricultural etc,etc equipment! Nice try though !
Gy

@ruking1 makes an excellent point here. Standards are not Standards if not applied equally across the board. Why should planes or boats have different standards than automobiles after all. This would be even more true for allowing trucks from other Countries under different standards to cross our borders; let's close the border before we close VW!

Again it starts with the most basic: fuel. It gets to almost totally fubar after that ! RUG/PUG are 2 to 18 TIMES dirtier than ULSD! Standard to standard = 30 ppm sulfur to 15 ppm ULSD. Nominally delivered ULSD is 5 to 10 ppm. RUG/PUG (legally) can be delivered (even far dirtier) up to 90 ppm sulfur with offline fees? ! Again, they don't even believe their own narratives, especially when it will cost (the majority) more. This not to mention the unintended consequences, i. e., more costly damage & repair costs!

stever

Plenty of people don't think diesel fuel is "cleaner" than gasoline.

"There's a more disturbing difference between diesel and gasoline: Burning diesel also emits nasty particulates and smog-forming nitrogen oxides"

Will Diesel Save the World? (Slate from 2008)

"Today, the most intractable problem diesels face is the amount of nasty NOx (mainly nitric oxide and nitrogen dioxide) they emit from their tailpipes"

The dieselgate dilemma (The Economist from two days ago)

Other interesting comment from that last story:

"At this stage, it is premature to talk about the death of the diesel engine. Diesel trucks and large passenger cars, with their relatively clean exhausts, will doubtless soldier on. But who needs a small diesel?"

gagrice

Mr_Shiftright said:

EPA has numerous regulations in place for marine diesels. If your point is that international commercial shipping is much larger than passenger car diesel sales, that's pretty obvious. McDonald's sells more french fries than gourmet French restaurants.

The EPA may have regulations. They are not doing much to stop the smog in the LA basin. If the EPA, CARB and the Feds were serious about GHG causing GW, they would ban most ships from US harbors. It would have a double positive impact. It would keep $100s of billions of cheap Chinese crap out of our stores. And encourage more manufacturing in the USA. And of course cut the major cause of pollution in CA.

As ships get bigger, the pollution is getting worse. The most staggering statistic of all is that just 16 of the world’s largest ships can produce as much lung-clogging sulphur pollution as all the world’s cars.
Because of their colossal engines, each as heavy as a small ship, these super-vessels use as much fuel as small power stations.
But, unlike power stations or cars, they can burn the cheapest, filthiest, high-sulphur fuel: the thick residues left behind in refineries after the lighter liquids have been taken. The stuff nobody on land is allowed to use.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1229857/How-16-ships-create-pollution-cars-world.html