What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

ruking1

Slow diesel News Day! The VW 2.0 L TDI Customer Goodwill Package came in the mail. It has three components : 1. $500 debit card 2. $500 dealer credit card 3. VW Road Assist 3 years/36,000 miles.

ruking1

stever said:

Looking at the glut of oil and the low price of gas, diesel tankers turning around in mid-ocean, it's pretty clear that ExxonMobile is full of low information leaders. (gcaptain.com, houstonchronicle.com).

While by many metrics it may appear that way, this is about the farthest from the truth! Not to get TMI into the market dynamics, so the best analogy for diesel discussion purposes, might be: 1. holding marketshare 2. trying to turn an aircraft carrier when (you) one are/is used to driving sports cars. 3. huge titanic wars going on

So normal market blather holds that prices hold firm to higher with a supply just shy of the demand.

The real funny TMI is that the CEO of Exxon Mobil is a card-carrying DEMOCRAT, not the right wing "crazy" that most democratic environmental [non-permissible content removed]'s want the narrative to be.

Mr_Shiftright

a perfectly rational conclusion. Climate change will in many cases cause degradation of the environment, such as overgrowth of estuaries and destruction of coral reefs. We are already observing this in many part of the world.

Climate change concerns and legislation will continue to drive auto design and industrial design as a whole far into the future.

Put all your money on "green".

houdini1 said:

carboy21 said:

stever said:

"Given the negligible difference in fuel costs, the major bump in purchase cost, and the slight sacrifice in performance, it's hard to make a case for the diesel vs. the 1.4T."

Does the Volkswagen Jetta 1.4T Render the Diesel Engine Pointless? (Consumer Reports)

If the gas prices remain at this level forever then diesels and hybrids will die a slow death.

Question is will it ?

Hybrids pollute the world with Lithium in someone else's back yard.

Speaking of pollution, it seems that the global warming folks are attempting to make pollution and climate change synonymous. Another deception that many low info people will fall for.

stever

ruking1 said:

The real funny TMI is that the CEO of Exxon Mobil is a card-carrying DEMOCRAT

Putting labels on people means you miss the real story. A "green" Dem may be as unlikely as "clean" diesel. For Exxon, the green has to be the money. Otherwise they'll get sued by the shareholders.

ruking1

Mr_Shiftright said:

a perfectly rational conclusion. Climate change will in many cases cause degradation of the environment, such as overgrowth of estuaries and destruction of coral reefs. We are already observing this in many part of the world.

Climate change concerns and legislation will continue to drive auto design and industrial design as a whole far into the future.

Put all your money on "green".

houdini1 said:

carboy21 said:

stever said:

"Given the negligible difference in fuel costs, the major bump in purchase cost, and the slight sacrifice in performance, it's hard to make a case for the diesel vs. the 1.4T."

Does the Volkswagen Jetta 1.4T Render the Diesel Engine Pointless? (Consumer Reports)

If the gas prices remain at this level forever then diesels and hybrids will die a slow death.

Question is will it ?

Hybrids pollute the world with Lithium in someone else's back yard.

Speaking of pollution, it seems that the global warming folks are attempting to make pollution and climate change synonymous. Another deception that many low info people will fall for.

Let me ask in a backward way. For as good as the Tesla is on CR ratings, would you buy one used ? Would you buy when used with 60,000 miles? How about a Prius?

Michaell

ruking1 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

a perfectly rational conclusion. Climate change will in many cases cause degradation of the environment, such as overgrowth of estuaries and destruction of coral reefs. We are already observing this in many part of the world.

Climate change concerns and legislation will continue to drive auto design and industrial design as a whole far into the future.

Put all your money on "green".

houdini1 said:

carboy21 said:

stever said:

"Given the negligible difference in fuel costs, the major bump in purchase cost, and the slight sacrifice in performance, it's hard to make a case for the diesel vs. the 1.4T."

Does the Volkswagen Jetta 1.4T Render the Diesel Engine Pointless? (Consumer Reports)

If the gas prices remain at this level forever then diesels and hybrids will die a slow death.

Question is will it ?

Hybrids pollute the world with Lithium in someone else's back yard.

Speaking of pollution, it seems that the global warming folks are attempting to make pollution and climate change synonymous. Another deception that many low info people will fall for.

Let me ask in a backward way. For as good as the Tesla is on CR ratings, would you buy one used ? Would you buy when used with 60,000 miles? How about a Prius?

Me, personally?

No on the Tesla.

Yes on the Prius.

Mr_Shiftright

I wouldn't buy either. I wouldn't pay all that Tesla $$$ for a car that will fall on its face in 200 miles (the way I would drive it) and the Prius, while a very reliable used car, is totally boring to me and I'd have no use for it.

Perhaps when gas or diesel goes up to $6 a gallon (Euro prices) I might reconsider such purchases, but for now 25 mpg in my Mini is just fine.

As for the so-called high performance hybrids, for me this is just added complexity that could be solved as easily with a diesel sedan or diesel SUV.

I just don't see the advantage of say the new Acura NSX with its turbos and 3 electric motors, over a Corvette, with a plain ol' pushrod V8.

As for "green", Steve has it right. Exxon would sell the planet to aliens for a buck.

ruking1 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

a perfectly rational conclusion. Climate change will in many cases cause degradation of the environment, such as overgrowth of estuaries and destruction of coral reefs. We are already observing this in many part of the world.

Climate change concerns and legislation will continue to drive auto design and industrial design as a whole far into the future.

Put all your money on "green".

houdini1 said:

carboy21 said:

stever said:

"Given the negligible difference in fuel costs, the major bump in purchase cost, and the slight sacrifice in performance, it's hard to make a case for the diesel vs. the 1.4T."

Does the Volkswagen Jetta 1.4T Render the Diesel Engine Pointless? (Consumer Reports)

If the gas prices remain at this level forever then diesels and hybrids will die a slow death.

Question is will it ?

Hybrids pollute the world with Lithium in someone else's back yard.

Speaking of pollution, it seems that the global warming folks are attempting to make pollution and climate change synonymous. Another deception that many low info people will fall for.

Let me ask in a backward way. For as good as the Tesla is on CR ratings, would you buy one used ? Would you buy when used with 60,000 miles? How about a Prius?

ruking1

"Green" alternatives are not yet ready for prime time, even at the clarion call for "full investment"! Reliability, durability, & cost effectiveness are just not built into the current product mix. The "green" drive train complexity can only increase, going forward. They really have not been able to overcome the severe hits to R, D, & C E concussed by complexity.

So yes, you answered the question/s.

With TDI CUV's (given; wants, needs, how we drive, & in our environments, etc., ) that throws off 33 to 36 mpg, a green alternative will have to BEAT the current, as well as future cpmd figures for PAR, let alone to make any sense. Currently EV cpmd: fuel (Tesla@ .13) is far more than diesel.(.0645- .059 cents ) What are the chances of kWh prices NOT going up, with gasoline@ $ 6.00?

So I will continue to buy diesels knowing that the lifespans will/can be 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 years.

houdini1

Mr_Shiftright said:

a perfectly rational conclusion. Climate change will in many cases cause degradation of the environment, such as overgrowth of estuaries and destruction of coral reefs. We are already observing this in many part of the world.

Climate change concerns and legislation will continue to drive auto design and industrial design as a whole far into the future.

Put all your money on "green".

houdini1 said:

carboy21 said:

stever said:

"Given the negligible difference in fuel costs, the major bump in purchase cost, and the slight sacrifice in performance, it's hard to make a case for the diesel vs. the 1.4T."

Does the Volkswagen Jetta 1.4T Render the Diesel Engine Pointless? (Consumer Reports)

If the gas prices remain at this level forever then diesels and hybrids will die a slow death.

Question is will it ?

Hybrids pollute the world with Lithium in someone else's back yard.

Speaking of pollution, it seems that the global warming folks are attempting to make pollution and climate change synonymous. Another deception that many low info people will fall for.

The rationale of "climate change" escapes me. The climate is seldom, if ever, static. It is always getting a little warmer or a little cooler. Since the term global warming was dropped in favor of climate change, the believers seemed to hedge their bets on it getting warmer. Therefore if it does get warmer, that's bad, but if it gets cooler, that's also bad, so any type of climate change is necessarily bad.

So why do all these esteemed scientists want to spend trillions of dollars to... CHANGE THE CLIMATE ?

stever

The low info people think that burning carbon (including diesel) is causing an "unnatural" 1 to 2 degree Celsius temp increase in a "short" period of time, with detrimental human affects. Offsetting the rise now will offset the costs down the road.

More on topic:

"The unrelenting barrage of bad diesel news is beginning to have its effect.

On Monday, the European Parliament’s environment committee shot down an attempt to relax the limits for NOx instead of tightening them, as one would assume.

If the public outcry gets strong enough, lawmakers could be convinced to tax diesel the same as gasoline.

Diesel could prove to be the biggest disruption of the EU auto industry.

It probably won’t."

The Coming Disruption Of The Auto Industry, Fueled By Diesel (Forbes)

stever

"German environmental lobby group DUH turned on carmaker Daimler on Wednesday, saying test results had shown nitrogen oxide emissions from one of its Mercedes diesel models far exceeded European legal limits.

Daimler (DAIGn.DE) described the results from a Mercedes C-Class 200 CDI as "questionable", saying the model used technology that met European Union standards and threatening legal action should "false claims" damage its reputation."

German lobby group says excess emissions detected in Mercedes model (Reuters)

Daimler calls diesel emissions results from German lobby 'questionable (autonews.com)

ruking1

Follow the grant monies! Any scientist knows his career gets sent to "SIBERIA" for anything that is considered "anti" global warming!

stever

Like the guys who helped Exxon formula its latest position. Smells a lot like big tobacco eh?

Kind of reminds me of another group that liked to massage the numbers and to double hockey sticks with people's health. That would be Volkswagen.

houdini1

stever said:

The low info people think that burning carbon (including diesel) is causing an "unnatural" 1 to 2 degree Celsius temp increase in a "short" period of time, with detrimental human affects. Offsetting the rise now will offset the costs down the road.

Hmmmm...

texases

Smoking tobacco - a useless habit with no benefits
Using gas and diesel - makes the world economies function

Yeah, they sound just like each other...

stever

Okay, not a good analogy. Except for VW and the lying part. (RT.com)

ruking1

So which car OEM hasn't? It's only the news du jour!

stever

To coin a tobacco pun, there's puffing and there's puffing.

carboy21

Climate has been changing for the last 20,000 years. It is cyclical, ice age followed by global warming followed by ice age and so on. Dinosaurs were killed by sudden ice age. Noah's flood was caused by global warming. Sun undergoes cyclical severe sunspot activities and cooling off.

But since Al Gore was born, humans have found a way to profit from climate change

stever

Wonder if he got to keep the Audi A6 diesel.... (MotorTrend).

And yeah, I think it was one of the cheating ones. (autoweek.com)

ruking1

stever said:

Wonder if he got to keep the Audi A6 diesel.... (MotorTrend).

And yeah, I think it was one of the cheating ones. (autoweek.com)

Cool!

Mr_Shiftright

ruking1 said:

Follow the grant monies! Any scientist knows his career gets sent to "SIBERIA" for anything that is considered "anti" global warming!

Apparently not. Many completely uncredentialed websites are making a bundle of money on being "anti-global warming". Conspiracy theories can rake in big bucks, especially the kind that can never be disproven. All you do when presented with evidence, is widen the conspiracy. Brilliant in its own way.

In VW's case, the conspiracy was outed pretty quick. I'm surprised they ever thought they'd get away with it. Well I guess they did for a few years.

Europe add taxes to diesel? Eh....I don't think that's going to happen. That would be like America taxing football tickets.

ruking1

Not true! Who really has been convicted of conspiracy? No one to be precise!

Mark my words, WW, & to a far lesser extent VW A , VW will NOT be convicted of conspiracy! GM with the US killer ignition systems du jour is a recent example!

Realistically, how can "they" kill diesel!? The gasoline (19 gal) to diesel (10 gal) ratio in a 42 gal barrel of oil is the "inconvenient " FACT. So when will anyone stop drilling???? When will anyone stop refining??? PLEASE!!!! The US & WW demand calls for billions of gals of gasoline (with the resultant diesel)!!! Getting RID of diesel is pure FANTASY !

Indeed the opposite is totally true!!!! You can actually get RID of gasoline and still have diesel that can be made from a host of sources; to include being "made" @ a customers site, with access to natural gas & chemicals! So truly the truth is bas awkwards !!!!!!

The other truth is the US is one of the big three of world wide oil production. It is easy to guess the other two In fact we are the new King Kong!!

Like I have been saying, I can't even make this stuff up!

Mr_Shiftright

Well there have been resignations. There may well be criminal charges at some point. But you're right, the person who made the decision may never come to the light of justice.

ruking1

Mr_Shiftright said:

Well there have been resignations. There may well be criminal charges at some point. But you're right, the person who made the decision may never come to the light of justice.

Yes! Yes! One can count on it! On your final point, that is also true!

I see that Costco Folsom, CA is selling ULSD @ $2.13, RUG $2.11/PUG $2.35!

GA has ULSD @ $1.87, RUG $1.79,PUG $2.14 !

Ones got to love the 2% 3% and 5% cash rewards !

fintail

Low info people are "delighted" by Dieselgate, too. An entire demographic with no ability to think or answer to anything. These people want buses and shoebox apartments for everyone else, while they retain private cars and large houses bought at income ratios that don't exist anymore. .

As if the EU listens to legitimate public outcry. Western Europe needs to remember what France did in 1789, and look to it again.

ruking1

Most low info people in the US don't have TDIs 3 to 5% (95 to 97% gassers)!

In Europe, folks have closer to a 55/45 % chance diesel/ gasser.

Yep, let the flushing begin! The French need to rise again! Oh the glory days! Interesting that crisises ( Saul Alinski style) are being perpetrated in Europe & the leaderships are just fiddling. ( heavy metal kumbiyah? ) 42% of the US population are barely hanging on. We have 29% structural unemployment! It's higher in Europe!

Mr_Shiftright

I never thought much of the 2% and 3% cash back because here in CA at least if you pay cash (or debit card) you get .8 cents off per gallon. So paying by card you pay a higher price and get that same .8 cents off per gallon.

ruking1

Mr_Shiftright said:

I never thought much of the 2% and 3% cash back because here in CA at least if you pay cash (or debit card) you get .8 cents off per gallon. So paying by card you pay a higher price and get that same .8 cents off per gallon.

Truly! But not all stations offer a cash discount. Indeed some of the cheapest ULSD places do NOT offer a cash discount! So then, it is how you wish to deploy cash! Cash is a two edged/ sided sword, but one edge of it is King/Queen. For me, it's an expense management tool (aka, net 20 to 25 days)

As it applies to gasser and diesel pvf, what do you think the percentages and units would be IF an "all cash" (purchase) were required? My guess unit & % sales would drop like a rock.

stever

Looks like I've lived in 3 of the top ten states for diesel drivers. Guess I know how to pick 'em.

The graphic is in this link:

Will Diesel Sink Alongside VW? (cspnet.com)

stever

Germany approves 30-minute software update fix for cheating Volkswagen diesels (arstechnica.com)

"These measures apply to Europe (EU-28 markets),” Volkswagen Group wrote in a press release. "After the measures have been implemented, the vehicles will fulfill the duly applicable emissions standards, with the aim of achieving this without any impairment of engine output, fuel consumption, or performance."

ruking1

Woke up this morning to talking heads on CNBC TV (financial news work network) saying that they anticipate a barrel of oil to both: stay low for the foreseeable future & hit $20 per barrel!!? (Currently $35 to #37 spot prices $1.24 ULSD/$1.23 gasoline! Retail in CA $2.13 ULSD/PUG $2.35/RUG $2.11) This completely & utterly trashes the Eco [non-permissible content removed] $10 per gal SHORTAGE narrative (lie)!!!!!! The earlier OBAMA shortage lie is totally blown ! It totally is in keeping with the killing of US fracking.

So can you all imagine app 43% discount to today's "high " ULSD /gasoline prices??!!! $1.21 per gal??? YEE HAW !!!

texases

stever said:

Germany approves 30-minute software update fix for cheating Volkswagen diesels (arstechnica.com)

"These measures apply to Europe (EU-28 markets),” Volkswagen Group wrote in a press release. "After the measures have been implemented, the vehicles will fulfill the duly applicable emissions standards, with the aim of achieving this without any impairment of engine output, fuel consumption, or performance."

This makes no sense - how can the 'fix' be 100% harmless? Were the VW engineers that incompetent that they couldn't implement something this obvious and avoid this problem (in the EU at least) in the first place?

ruking1

I did call this "much ado about not much" scenarios didn't I??

Like I continued to say, I can't even make this stuff up ! Go diesel!

While I am NOT predicting a CA VW affected diesel vehicle buy back, a 4 cent cost per mile driven: depreciation net out would be insanely sweet! Given that there are not very many affected CA VW diesel cars, a buyback might be a distinct possibility.

Still waiting for the 2012 VW Touareg TDI Goodwill Package! (500 Visa, 500 dealer credits, VW Road Assist 3 yr/36,000 miles.)

carboy21

texases said:

stever said:

Germany approves 30-minute software update fix for cheating Volkswagen diesels (arstechnica.com)

"These measures apply to Europe (EU-28 markets),” Volkswagen Group wrote in a press release. "After the measures have been implemented, the vehicles will fulfill the duly applicable emissions standards, with the aim of achieving this without any impairment of engine output, fuel consumption, or performance."

This makes no sense - how can the 'fix' be 100% harmless? Were the VW engineers that incompetent that they couldn't implement something this obvious and avoid this problem (in the EU at least) in the first place?

They found another way to cheat the tests LOL.

If the fix is so simple why did they commit corporate suicide by cheating in the first place

texases

Exactly. On a related topic, at least one lawyer says there's no downside to accepting the $1,000 goodwill (his other columns seem well thought out):
should-you-take-the-vw-tdi-diesel-payoff

stever

Since oil will be a more fungible product now that the ban on oil exports is being lifted, it'll be interesting to see where bbl prices and the retail prices of gas and diesel go. The Greens lost the lifting of the ban argument but won on solar and wind subsidy extensions, so there's another fun angle to ponder. San Diego says they are going 100% renewable in 20 years. If other big cities follow suit (of if the general consumer market does), the oil glut may not ease much at all.

Will solar Uber service stations?

texases

As for the impact of lifting the export ban, I'd expect it to increase US oil prices slightly, decrease world (Brent) prices slightly. They were at $35.52/$37.17 per barrel yesterday, so what, maybe $1.00/bbl bump to US crude? About $0.02 per gallon? And that's a high side guess, in my opinion.

ruking1

stever said:

Since oil will be a more fungible product now that the ban on oil exports is being lifted, it'll be interesting to see where bbl prices and the retail prices of gas and diesel go. The Greens lost the lifting of the ban argument but won on solar and wind subsidy extensions, so there's another fun angle to ponder. San Diego says they are going 100% renewable in 20 years. If other big cities follow suit (of if the general consumer market does), the oil glut may not ease much at all.

Will solar Uber service stations?

On a hysterical note, it is interesting that the so call "domestic oil ban" was legislated & implemented during the (republican) Ford administration!
I am not sure why you left out the MASSIVE tax credits the domestic refiners got? (compensation for future potential loss of business. )

carboy21

Worldwide oil production is 98 million barrels a day.
USA export is 4-5 million barrels a day. It will hardly cause a hiccup in the world oil prices.

ruking1

carboy21 said:

Worldwide oil production is 98 million barrels a day.
USA export is 4-5 million barrels a day. It will hardly cause a hiccup in the world oil prices.

There may be a certain logic to that. It truly does not explain "the (oil) wars" that are going on today!

ruking1

Making a list. Checking it twice! Will we find out who's naught or nice? Is S C coming to town ( to VW Corporate) ?
Will Hans & Franz, et al, lose their 6 to 7 weeks summer vacations? ? Or,.....get better ones??http://www.forbes.com/sites/bertelschmitt/2015/12/17/source-vw-draws-up-list-of-100-winterkorn-loyalists-for-planned-purge/?utm_campaign=yahootix&partner=yahootix

stever

ruking1 said:

I am not sure why you left out the MASSIVE tax credits the domestic refiners got? (compensation for future potential loss of business. )

Just how long do you want my bloviating posts to be?

Mr_Shiftright

Please temper "[non-permissible content removed]" and "Obama" posts so that we can maintain a civil discussion. These are hyperbolic terms with no constructive use. Thank you.

Host

ruking1 said:

Woke up this morning to talking heads on CNBC TV (financial news work network) saying that they anticipate a barrel of oil to both: stay low for the foreseeable future & hit $20 per barrel!!? (Currently $35 to #37 spot prices $1.24 ULSD/$1.23 gasoline! Retail in CA $2.13 ULSD/PUG $2.35/RUG $2.11) This completely & utterly trashes the Eco [non-permissible content removed] $10 per gal SHORTAGE narrative (lie)!!!!!! The earlier OBAMA shortage lie is totally blown ! It totally is in keeping with the killing of US fracking.

So can you all imagine app 43% discount to today's "high " ULSD /gasoline prices??!!! $1.21 per gal??? YEE HAW !!!

ruking1

Well, .... How about those GS Warriors?

Mr_Shiftright

Awesome team! Stephen Curry is the greatest shooter E-V-E-R.

ruking1

stever said:

ruking1 said:

I am not sure why you left out the MASSIVE tax credits the domestic refiners got? (compensation for future potential loss of business. )

Just how long do you want my bloviating posts to be?

It does beg the question why no pen and cell phone @ the ready for POTUS veto?

stever

Sounded to me like the deal was cut way before the vote, so no veto threat.

Mr_Shiftright

Yep, all worked out in the back room.

ruking1

Please understand I don't shoot non- gratuitous political bullets ! The reason for political topics are political decisions are integral (un/fortunately) TO diesel/s.

On topic, when "the oil wars" settle down, the prices of fuels will continue their rises!

I dare say more OEM's, with more diesel products will hit the US markets. % diesels PVF will grow! If VW buys back two of mine (make it worth my while to sell) I reluctantly will go back into the markets! They will have two great TDI's for the used market! 4 sales when I was planning to keep two for many more years! I would probably have to relent on keeping the TLC gassers for 30 years! (22/20 years ain't bad? They woul post app 11.6 cents cpmd: deprectiation.