What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

gagrice

ruking1 said:

How about a natural gas 543 cu in.³ almost no N0X monster?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/trucksdotcom/2016/04/11/natural-gas-engine-cummins-on-way/#6bf022244ac1

Buses and medium duty trucks. No mention of HP and Torque. Are they LNG or CNG. No really good infrastructure for small business. Last I read the home CNG manufacturer is out of business. CNG presents a similar problem to EV. Range is poor, tanks have to be inspected and replaced. We are headed into the dark ages of personal transportation.

ruking1

Yes! I've used natural gas vehicles going back some 42 years ago.it was & remains a VERY special purpose fuel, aka, WAY limited %. If they continue to collapse the infrastructure, what incentives does anybody have to use it? THE magic bullet?

So as a alternative fuel, natural gas growth has been abysmal ! (& that is being PC ! If the nat gas, diesel, E85, hybrids etc were each 10% (40% total) , we'd have no gasoline issues according to the Eco extremist's gospels.

More on point, SLOW news diesel day!

Costco, Folsom, CA: ULSD $2.09, RUG $2.43, PUG $2.73.

We are using the 2012 VW Touareg TDI for commuting! Its putting up about 32 to 33 mpg.

gagrice

My buddy that worked in Prudhoe and had a home in Lake Havasu when we did, had his PU truck set up with propane. Two tanks in back. He started on regular gas and switched over to propane. Claimed better mileage and cleaner engine. Plugs lasted longer. Longer time between oil changes etc. Seems more practical than CNG with the very expensive tanks.

Something I never ran into before the other day. I took a propane tank in to fill at Costco. He said it was out of date cannot fill. Took it across to Walmart and they exchanged it for a new tank filled for $17. I may convert my Nissan Frontier.

PROS
http://www.combinedenergyservices.com/propaneenginefuel

Cons
http://gas2.org/2013/07/09/5-reasons-to-not-convert-your-car-to-propane/

stever

I bet Blue Rhino and the others get a lot of "stale" tanks in trade.

This is what happens when a car dealer is also a film maker.

There's a VW diesel scandal movie coming (autoweek.com)

gagrice

Will dieselgate keep Audi from selling their new latest and greatest diesel in the USA?

With 320 kW (435 hp) and 900 Nm (663.8 lb ft) of torque, the new Audi SQ7 TDI is the most powerful diesel SUV on the market. It also leads the competition in numerous other technical fields. Its newly developed 4.0 TDI engine features a world first: An electric powered compressor gives the Audi SQ7 TDI outstanding off-the-line performance. Yet it consumes on average 7.4 liters of fuel per 100 kilometers (31.8 US mpg).

With 320 kW (435 hp) and 900 Nm (663.8 lb‑ft) of torque between 1,000 and 3,250 revolutions per minute, the SUV sets new benchmarks in the segment. It accelerates from 0 to 100 km/h (62.1 mph) in 4.8 seconds; top speed is 250 km/h (155.3 mph) (governed).

ruking1

If one isn't careful, can wind up buying a lot more tire sets!

gagrice

ruking1 said:

If one isn't careful, can wind up buying a lot more tire sets!

I am thinking VW might want to keep me as a customer and give me a good trade on the new SQ7 TDI. I think I would really like that vehicle.

With Google 3D mapping, it should resolve the only issue I have with my Touareg TDI.

High-resolution graphics: Audi virtual cockpit
With its 12.3‑inch display, the optional Audi virtual cockpit presents logically structured information in brilliant graphics. Driver ergonomics are excellent, and operation is intuitive. The driver chooses the display mode via the multifunction steering wheel. A head-up display is also available as an option.

The optional MMI navigation plus with MMI all‑in‑touch includes a large glass surface on the center tunnel console that provides the finger with haptic feedback after each click. The MMI logic allows for intuitive system operation and also understands terms from everyday speech.

http://www.autoblog.com/2016/03/03/audi-sq7-tdi-official/

ruking1

I really haven't heard much of the 4.0 L V8 TDI 's technical analysis, in any of the more dedicated iesel websites. I suspect however, that the V-8 diesels have been road & field tested for half a decade or more: are both the advertised torque monsters, but very very reliable & durable. If they are advertising app 32 mpg, I'm swagging I can post that as a minimum (+4 mpg) ,with little to no adjustment in driving behavior.

Even though we are at the heart of vehicle tech (Silicon Valley), I do like the "SANS" option.

stevedebi

I'm wondering if the only reason VW doesn't just pull out of the US market is that they would also have to stop selling Audis.

ruking1

I would also swag they want the huge and hugely profitable Porsche market !

It's a slow news diesel day, as the Obama administration continues the beat down on oil prices!

I do have to say however, I am really digging the low diesel prices! I think the wife is digging the 26.4 gallons/33 mpg fuel fill up cycle? . ( 858 miles/54 miles=15.88 days commuting/ 7 days= 2.27 weeks between fills)

fintail

Maybe it's a time to buy when prices are low?

Consumer memories tend to be short, even if whiny litigious victim types get press.

stever

Probably a smart move - I can't see VW falling to the Mitsubishi third tier level. They just got to find a new hook now that diesels may be done. Kind of like how Subaru has done with their AWD rep. Not sure that being a "driver's car" is it though.

fintail

Or just make diesels that conform (although greenie narcissist groups will still seek attention while not understanding test conditions vs real world). Subaru is a real lifestyle brand around Seattle, definitely a marketing win - dog, ski rack (actually being a skier is optional), maybe a beard, but otherwise, the same as a Camcord driver.

stever

I think diesels really may be toast for passenger cars though.

This is the week the software "fix" is due. Otherwise we're off to the races in federal court and who knows what direction that could take.

Volkswagen Emissions Scandal Update: Deadline Looms For ‘Dieselgate’ Fix (ibtimes.com)

gagrice

In addition to the money for the fix itself, the company is already facing dozens of class-action lawsuits worldwide that will likely cost several billion dollars more.

Fools that go for the class action lawsuit will be lucky to see anything. It is purely a money maker for attorneys. I listened to an attorney giving particulars on several such suits. On an average class action lawsuit, attorneys make about $1700 per hour. Some attorneys in the tobacco lawsuits made $7000 per hour. And the judges go along with it. A top tier attorney will charge normally about $1000 per hour. Average Joe attorney about $500 per hour. So it is obvious why they chase people they think can give them a big pay day.

ruking1

HP/TORQUE http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a28860/learn-the-difference-between-horsepower-and-torque/

henryn

Having been on the winning side of a class action lawsuit, I can testify that the lawyers are the real winners. That system needs to be changed. But as long as lawyers write the laws, well ....

ruking1

The EPA has all but said they are bound to the CURRENT biannual testing protocols ( in force for MY it was put on the road) for the LIFE of the affected TDI vehicles! This is with or without the owners getting a (specific to any ) recall done. This is true for ANY gasser MY.
Anecdotally both diesels easily passed their latest emissions certifications. (2016) aka they are gtg to 2018.

Slow diesel news day! whlse ULSD $1.21, RUG $1.47. !

slorenzen

" the same as a Camcord driver."

Not entirely.

I don't see NEAR as many Subarus with the rear corner of the bumper cover pushed in...

PF_Flyer

A national publication is looking to hear your stories about recall headaches, including difficulties with dealers, wait times or loaner cars. If you're willing to assist, please contact pr@edmunds.com by no later than Thursday, April 21 2016.

fintail

What is it with those cars? Sometimes it's hard to find a Corolla/Camry/Sienna that doesn't have a nice dent right in the corner of the bumper. Definitely none of those are diesels, those drivers would put gasoline in them anyway

slorenzen said:

" the same as a Camcord driver."

Not entirely.

I don't see NEAR as many Subarus with the rear corner of the bumper cover pushed in...

slorenzen

fintail said:

What is it with those cars? Sometimes it's hard to find a Corolla/Camry/Sienna that doesn't have a nice dent right in the corner of the bumper. Definitely none of those are diesels, those drivers would put gasoline in them anyway

slorenzen said:

" the same as a Camcord driver."

Not entirely.

I don't see NEAR as many Subarus with the rear corner of the bumper cover pushed in...

I pointed out the dented bumper thing to my wife some time ago. She cracks up all the time seeing the dented bumpers.

She drove a Camry years ago, but no dents...

stever

Oh jeeze, next y'all'll have me counting telephone poles or some such. (That contraction is Southern for you all will btw).

Got gas this morning and a woman in a sedan was having trouble with a pump that I'd had issues with a couple of weeks ago. When the manager came out I looked over and didn't recognize the sedan, but it had a big honking bump in the corner.

Got RUG for $1.83. Diesel across the street at the Valero was $1.89 - same as regular on that corner.

houdini1

I looked at a 2015 Audi A3 TDI a couple of weeks ago, as a 3rd car that would get good mileage. It had about 8,000. miles on it. It had never been sold and the dealer had been using it as a demo and service loaner. Asking price was $31,000. Audi has a pretty good CPO program, depending on what you buy. Normally you would get the remainder of the original warranty (about 3 years in this case) and an extra year with unlimited mileage. So total of 4 years. You also get 2 years of free maintenance.

The problem, according to the dealer, Audi will not allow them to certify a car if it is a diesel. This was because of the problem VW is having with their small diesels. This surprised me. I didn't press him on the issue, but I also passed on the car, though I really liked it.

ruking1

It did not seem that either side was too motivated!?

ruking1

Like I said in earlier posts this "cheating" is much more widespread in the auto industry than just the way smaller diesel market! https://www.yahoo.com/news/automaker-mitsubishi-admits-manipulating-fuel-efficiency-tests-100818154.html?nhp=1

stever

Kind of fits in with Mitsu's history - there was a fire scandal/cover-up back in '04, the big defect cover-up scandal back in '00 and it seems like there was something else involving employees but I can't recall what that may have been. (and I'm not going back to the forced labor days involving sister companies).

Maybe Mitsu will bring back 0-0-0 to make amends.

Meanwhile tomorrow is the big day for VW diesels in the US.

texases

Mitsu did it the old fashioned way - just pump up the tires! No fancy computer programming needed.

ruking1

I also cited the (12 years ago) 2004 Toyota Prius brouhaha Very simply Toyota posted EPA 60 mpg city and 50 mpg highway. In reality, owners have posted about 40 mpg to 43 MPG! EPA/CARB saw fit to then RIG the EPA tests to give hybrids the mpg advantage! Unbelievable!

Can you even imagine what would have happen to diesels, if that were done??

PF_Flyer

Just grabs my curiousity that the code word for the technology that turned off VW polution controls on the road was "acoustic software".

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-04-19/vw-cheating-code-words-said-to-complicate-emissions-probe

Seems like they're after a person or persons to pin it on and be able to say, THEY did it. I'm not sure if they get that.

ruking1

Hollywood can resuscitate the concept of the " one armed man ", made famous in the hit show "The Fugitive" The slant will be a computer coding genius (irony: one handed) takes on diesel computer cheating for extra money?

PF_Flyer

ruking1 said:

Hollywood can resuscitate the concept of the " one armed man ", made famous in the hit show "The Fugitive" The slant will be a computer coding genius takes on diesel computer cheating for extra money?

Heh... I know a script writer in LA

texases

Nah, more like "Your mission, Dieter, if you decide to accept it is to get great MPGs, no matter what. If you're discovered management will disavow any knowledge of your work."

ruking1

Right & we"ll snitch you out for crucifixion anyway?

The latest VW 411 ? https://www.yahoo.com/news/vw-expected-offer-buyback-u-diesel-vehicles-184023437--finance.html?nhp=1

Looks like $ 5 k on top of fixing the car! https://www.yahoo.com/news/vw-resists-move-trial-instead-epa-settlement-101425133--finance.html

gagrice

The plaintiffs - a committee representing thousands of consumers who say they were tricked into buying polluting diesel vehicles - proposed an expedited hearing or bench trial, or an expedited "all issues" trial including punitive damages.

I wonder how many of those supposed thousands will hand over the keys to their VW TDI, knowing they will be stuck replacing it with a POC gasser?

PS
Anyone that claims they bought a diesel because it is cleaner than a PZEV car, is either stupid or a liar.

stever

That's what VW was claiming - all those clean diesel ads, complete with little old ladies cruising around in the Jetta(?) sniffing the tailpipe. I'm sure a lot of Greens fell for it and bragged about it.

fintail

I don't recall VW claiming "cleaner than PZEV". Just "clean", at least in mass market media. And it is clean, compared to a 240D or rare earths mining (don't go there!), of course.

I suspect a lot of greenies, or those who claim to be green (it can be a vain and hypocritical movement), are that stupid, and plenty more are liars, too. 5K is very generous, and probably more than what is deserved.

People can become victims when a settlement is floating in the air.

gagrice

I suspect a lot of greenies, or those who claim to be green (it can be a vain and hypocritical movement), are that stupid, and plenty more are liars, too.

I don't believe 1% bought them because they believed they were cleaner than the gas or hybrid competition. People buy them to get great driving experience and mileage. The lawsuits show the litigious greedy nature of US citizens. TV ads are designed to catch people with an IQ under 100. I would guess that would include buyers of a VW TDI for its Greenness. Of course there are US conservatives that buy because it wastes less of our oil.

fintail

I think they believed it subconsciously. As you say, they wanted economy first and maybe something less boring than a hybrid, but now that a settlement is in the air, they will claim their feelings are hurt, that they are offended and their safe space has been violated.

ruking1

Too funny!

One (good) way to look at it/the issue is/are to ask the question/s:

How many OEM's have given somebody/one:

IRS $1,200 tax credit to buy (2009 VW Jetta TDI) ,(3 yr/36,000 warranty, 36,000 miles dealer included maintenance) 2 each $500 debit cards, two 3 yr. road assist packages (AAA costs 250 per year) , ($1,500 to $ 7,000) in HPFP repairs, & IF the articles are correct $ 5,000 & a buy back, on a sub $20,000 vehicle to drive (in our case 140,000 miles) ? ???!!! I literally walked out the door with just my signature (well that was a mistake, I should have gotten the sig other) . Monies were zero % (?) 7 years ago.

So right now, I don't know what the buyback numbers are. Right now, the above #s are approximately $ 8,700 + plus. IF the buy back number is $ 8,950, as per more than one article says it might be, this VW would have cost $2,350 (depreciation) to drive. (7 years 140,000) Aka, $27.98 per mo 1,667 miles per mo.

So help me (peel grapes) ladies/fellas ! Where can I get a better deal like that going forward?

stever

Buying for "cleanliness".

ruking1

Yes, I know this is a "family" web site! Get your mind out the gutter Stever! You always give me grief for outlining the down & dirty!

Slow diesel News Day ! We just used the VW dealer debit card to do the first "major " tune. It would be impolite of me NOT to say: thank you VW ! It will need its 2nd major tune @ 240,000 miles. That's app 8 more years of 15,000 miles per year commuting.

Can't wait for the ($5000) next installment ?!

Geepers ladies and gentlemen an article every hour seems to be coming out on this VW thing ? https://finance.yahoo.com/news/vw-expected-offer-buyback-u-diesel-vehicles-184023437--finance.html

The $1724 per car numbers do not add up!? https://finance.yahoo.com/news/source-vw-govt-ink-deal-194534004.html

stever

Don't get the reference but that's at least one person who meets @gagrice's criteria.

I'll let Edmunds post the link but there's a PR out this morning about the lack of repeat EV and hybrid buyers. Don't think I've seen a similar story done about repeat diesel buyers.

Everyone is buying SUVs it seems.

gagrice

stever said:

Don't get the reference but that's at least one person who meets @gagrice's criteria.

I'll let Edmunds post the link but there's a PR out this morning about the lack of repeat EV and hybrid buyers. Don't think I've seen a similar story done about repeat diesel buyers.

Everyone is buying SUVs it seems.

You are correct on all counts. Give me some money and I will happily keep my VW TDI. EVs have HORRIBLE resale, without that government cash attached. Hybrids seem to have appeal to a certain type person much like diesels. I think like VW stock that went in the toilet when the cheating was exposed, the price is headed back up. I just wish I had bought 10,000 shares. I am 26% to the good. Much better than my Mutual Funds have performed over that time period. When the dust settles I guarantee you will be able to name your price if you sell a VW TDI. For one thing only a few states even test vehicle emissions. And if you think the EPA can keep track, I got this wonderful bridge to sell you.

ruking1

Yup! Worse come to worst (in two years hence), I'll swap out that (CA) 2009 Jetta for the GA 2004 Civic ! Got to love that expensive ULSD @ $ 1.97 per gal. (RUG $1.99) No one is going to care about a recall that was/not done. If the next owner does, he/she is more than welcome to get it done !

Got to love VW stock even more also! Catching 6% moves (+/-) is better than retiring AND going fly fishing! Pretty soon they will probably say fly fishing is environmentally devastating?

The way this is going, very soon I'm going to have to buy another/more diesel!/s ?

stever

Our link is up (I hate to steal the home office's thunder - it's hard when they are always late out there in Pacific time. )

Hybrid and EV Loyalty Plunges Due to Low Gas Prices

At least they rolled the article out today - the office is closed for Earth Day tomorrow.
\

That graphic reminds me - VW is shutting down production of the New Beetle as of the 2018 model year.

henryn

I don’t know that I would agree with their findings (article linked above). I don’t personally know anyone who has an electric car, and the experiences that I have read about (mainly here in these forums) does not seem to be very positive. I would suspect that people are trading in hybrids and EVs for SUVs because they just didn’t enjoy owning one.

I do know people who own diesel trucks and cars, and their experiences have been positive. Most would be willing to buy another. My nephew recently spent $12k redoing the motor in his Ford F350 diesel pickup. He’s at 200k miles, and expects to get another 200k out of it. The engine did not wear out, he blew the head gaskets by overboosting the turbo with an aftermarket performance chip.

And on “shutting down production of the New Beetle as of the 2018 model year”, that doesn’t surprise me at all. I always thought the New Beetle was an answer in search of a question.

xwesx

It seems to me that a better way to offer up that $5K is in stock. That way, you give these "victim" owners a stake in VW's success (rather than demise), and if they don't want that, then they are free to sell their share.

gagrice

xwesx said:

It seems to me that a better way to offer up that $5K is in stock. That way, you give these "victim" owners a stake in VW's success (rather than demise), and if they don't want that, then they are free to sell their share.

Very good idea, I like it.

fintail

Maybe it's gas prices, and that so many of the cars can kind of be penalty boxes? My friend who had the Prius C has said many times it was his first and last Prius.

stever said:

Our link is up (I hate to steal the home office's thunder - it's hard when they are always late out there in Pacific time. )

Hybrid and EV Loyalty Plunges Due to Low Gas Prices

That graphic reminds me - VW is shutting down production of the New Beetle as of the 2018 model year.