What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

ruking1

What (other) reasons did he cite for not wanting another Prius?

texases

Well, the Prius C was a penalty box from the get-go. To bad he went with that one. My MKZ is fine, 37 mpgs, not looking to trade soon. By the time I do (5 years or so) there will be something similar, but at, what, 50 mpg?

fintail

He hated the ride/comfort (the seats irritated him), ICE, highway driving manners, performance. It was great in the city, but he takes road trips more than he thought initially.

Funny that texases mentions the MKZ, that's what he replaced the Prius with, hybrid version even. He's more than happy to pay more to have a more enjoyable vehicle.

ruking1

Both of your responses annecdotally validate my takes on 2003/2004 & 2009 Priuses. Do I get a road car that does city commuting well ? Do I get a good city car that only does roads OK ?

texases

The 'C' was more a hybrid Yaris. The regular Prius is fine.

ruking1

I just got to FEEL the LOVE environmentalists have for folks like me, to get a good deal on my 2009 TDI! http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-0422-volkswagen-diesel-fix-20160421-story.html

texases

Barely a framework, I'm still waiting for all the nitty-gritty details on how it'll all work.

ruking1

My comment was " tongue in cheek". The numbers stated are in conflict with one another and predictabley do not add up.

So for example, $ 1,724 avg per unit was one figure. (580,000 units, just over $ 1 !?

fintail

If a C is a Yaris, a normal Prius is a Corolla - never taken a road trip in one, but anything has to be more comfortable and pleasant than a C on a long 75mph trip. Best bet might be a Camry or Avalon or Lincoln or a diesel car

stever

"Daimler...is reviewing its emissions certification process at the prompting of the U.S. Justice Department.

Daimler’s Mercedes vehicles came under fire earlier this year in a proposed class-action lawsuit filed in relation to the company’s BlueTEC diesel technology. The technology shut down pollution controls when temperatures drop below 50 degrees Fahrenheit, producing nitrogen oxide emissions more than 65 times higher than Environmental Protection Agency standards permit.

The EPA sought more information about Daimler emissions after the suit was filed in February.

That suit alleged Mercedes deceived consumers by advertising “clean diesel” vehicles."

Daimler Shares Tumble on Diesel Emissions Review (WSJ registration link)

stever

"Now, according to a UK Department for Transportation (DfT) study, every diesel it tested on the road managed to exceed regulatory limits. That's not gone well.

Over six months, DfT tested 37 diesel vehicles on the road. All of these cars passed muster when being tested in the lab, but once they hit the road, it was an entirely different story. In every vehicle it tested, on-road nitrogen oxide emissions were in excess of legal limits."

None of the cars tested had defeat devices.

Damn, diesel: Every car the UK government tested exceeded emissions limits (CNET)

ruking1

Again totally one-sided ! They should've tested (double the amount) 37 like model gassers. Real world LALA land testing indicates the majority of gasser vehicles already busted NOX test limits! In other words, if every diesel vehicle emissions/sans were gotten off the road, gotten rid of, the standards would still be busted!

stever

Bring it on - the more testing and data we get the better our air quality will like it.

texases

As best I can tell gas cars pretty well meet their NOx specs, while diesels greatly miss their much higher limits, according to Fig. 1 of this report:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjop73d7KLMAhVEn4MKHdioB5sQFghJMAc&url=http://www.crcao.com/workshops/24th_RWE_Workshop/24RWE%20crcconfhighlights.pdf&usg=AFQjCNEoCxCtmITkbdepTGQlOJpnSrPTYA&sig2=GDzHRvrJN2dhSOAfcve_-Q

gagrice

Just glad I got my diesel when I did. By the time the Greenies have their way you won't be able to buy a diesel vehicle any place. I wonder if they are scrutinizing the largest selling diesels in the USA. The millions of diesel PU trucks being sold every year. I bet an F250 Puts out a lot more NOx than my Touareg TDI. I know I looked in the rear view mirror just to see and NO NOx coming from my SUV.

slorenzen

gagrice said:

Just glad I got my diesel when I did. By the time the Greenies have their way you won't be able to buy a diesel vehicle any place. I wonder if they are scrutinizing the largest selling diesels in the USA. The millions of diesel PU trucks being sold every year. I bet an F250 Puts out a lot more NOx than my Touareg TDI. I know I looked in the rear view mirror just to see and NO NOx coming from my SUV.

NOx on wood...

ruking1

gagrice said:

Just glad I got my diesel when I did. By the time the Greenies have their way you won't be able to buy a diesel vehicle any place. I wonder if they are scrutinizing the largest selling diesels in the USA. The millions of diesel PU trucks being sold every year. I bet an F250 Puts out a lot more NOx than my Touareg TDI. I know I looked in the rear view mirror just to see and NO NOx coming from my SUV.

Per your post, the OEMs will never be able to meet the (going forward) MPG requirements for mid sized to large trucks without diesel! If they were able to have done it with gas hybrid they would have LONG since done it! Haters should face the facts that 75% of the passenger vehicle fleet are large cars to pick up trucks. My take and I even admit it's hard to see, but this helps us enter the renaissance of diesel engines!

gagrice

I have owned PU trucks and SUVs since the early 1960s. And none of the gas powered have ever been better than 16-17 MPG. Including my 2006 GMC hybrid PU truck. My 2008 Nissan Frontier has a dandy V6 gas engine that has never yielded better than 17 MPG. I think if I drove it on the highway under 60 MPH I may squeeze 19-20 out of it. About what the EPA rates it at. I have no doubt if they would sell US the 4 cylinder diesel Nissan has all over the World I could get an easy 25 or more. About 35% better than I am getting now. Could be the Oil Companies and the EPA are in cahoots.

gagrice

I like to remind people why I came to Edmunds in 1998. I was looking for information on the 1998 Ford Ranger PU truck that was driven to the Arctic where I worked. These two young men from Brazil drove this truck from Brazil to Tierra del Sol and all the way to Prudoe Bay Alaska. It had a 5 speed manual and a 2.0L diesel turbo charged engine. They told me they were averaging 45 MPG. Blew me away as I had a 1996 Chevy 4x4 and a 1993 Toyota 4x4 that neither would get over 16 MPG on gas. Hear we are 18 years later and not able to do much better. Though I understand the Ram 1500 diesel is getting 22+ combined, for under $50k.

stever

Probably a translation issue since they've been metric in Brazil since 1862.

Funny, I found Edmunds in '98 trying to find invoice on minivans.

gagrice

There was a bit of a language barrier. Though their English was far better than my Spanish or Portuguese. Notice all their sponsors were US brands. Not sure they had anything in particular in mind, other than an adventure. I would be tickled with a small PU that averaged 30 MPG. If they were getting 45 KM/US Gallon that would be about 28 MPG US. Which is probably closer to reality. I have always hated the Metric system. We have won all the World Wars, we should get to say how things are measured.

gagrice

I remember my first desire for a diesel was in 1978. The VW diesel Dasher wagon hit the US market. I needed a car that got good mileage. I was driving my 1976 Datsun PU 75 miles to work in St Cloud MN. The dealer there had one on the showroom floor that was presold. It was a minimum year wait to get one. I needed a car so I went to the Honda Motorcycle shop to look at Hondas. He had a new 1978 Accord Hatchback. I bought it and always wished I had the Dasher diesel. The Honda at best would get 30 MPG. It was nice enough to drive, except in snow and ice. Looking back at automotive history, I suppose the VW would have been as much of a pain to maintain as the Honda. I had lots of cooling problems with the Honda, engine lasted 68k miles. I have not owned one since. I hold a grudge against automakers a long time. It was 43 years between Toyotas. I cannot imagine giving them a 3rd chance.

stever

I have five tapes around here but my favorite is my engineer's metric tape. Dividing fractions is nuts.

Diesel never was on my radar, especially after '80 when I moved north. Just sent birthday wishes to an old friend still there. He picked up a used diesel pickup in the 90s and sure enough, it would never start below 35 degrees.

That kind of ties in with the newest "cheat" as reported in this NY Times blurb.

"The German Transport Ministry said it was ordering the recall of 630,000 diesel cars because they were programmed to turn down emissions controls in cold weather.

The brands whose vehicles are subject to recall include Mercedes-Benz, General Motors’ Opel unit, Volkswagen, Audi and Porsche."

Got Anchorage company here this weekend so it's old home week. She landed in a Prius V after driving a Caravan for 15+ years. She's in Santa Fe now so no, she didn't drive the Prius down the Alcan

fintail

Aren't there legit conditions for emissions operation in extreme temps? Looking at recent actions, I don't have much faith in the German government lately, probably a move bankrolled by the greenie DUH SJW group who is doing so much for humanity and no doubt practicing what they preach.

henryn

gagrice said:

I have owned PU trucks and SUVs since the early 1960s. And none of the gas powered have ever been better than 16-17 MPG. Including my 2006 GMC hybrid PU truck. My 2008 Nissan Frontier has a dandy V6 gas engine that has never yielded better than 17 MPG. I think if I drove it on the highway under 60 MPH I may squeeze 19-20 out of it. About what the EPA rates it at. I have no doubt if they would sell US the 4 cylinder diesel Nissan has all over the World I could get an easy 25 or more. About 35% better than I am getting now. Could be the Oil Companies and the EPA are in cahoots.

My new 2015 F150 (big truck, supercrew, 4 real doors, huge inside) is getting as high as 24 on the highway, and I have done full tanks at 21+ mpg. The is the new for 2015 2.7L twin turbo V6. And as I have said before, here in these forums -- it is faster and more fun to drive than the 2013 F150 with the 5.0L V8 that I traded in.

I think diesel definitely has a place. And I've always said so. I used to pull a 5th wheel travel trailer, which was in the neighborhood of 10,000 pounds fully loaded. First with a 98 Ford F250 with the big block V8 gas engine, 460 cid. That truck got an absolute best of 13 mpg on the highway with no load. With the 5th wheel, average around 8, low around 6.5 (head winds).

I upgraded to a 2000 F250 with the 7.3L diesel. Highway mpg, unloaded, was 18. Pulling the 5th wheel, 10.5 to 11 mpg. And it felt stronger, more comfortable with that huge load behind it.

So yes, I believe diesels have their place. I'm not at all convinced that place is in small passenger cars like the Jetta. But this is a free country, everyone is entitled to an opinion. Heck, if I was commuting 100 miles per day and gas was back at $4 a gallon, I just might change my mind!

But for now ...

stever

fintail said:

Aren't there legit conditions for emissions operation in extreme temps?

Guess you have to define "extreme".

Minus 20 used to be my personal cutoff for XC skiing.

Be curious to see what the EU number is and whether it's 40 or 50°F. Going by the extent of the NOX, my guess is that it's a pretty "warm" number.

fintail

I wonder what it is, and how long everyone knew. I've known for awhile that these engines operate different in cold weather - I remember my Bluetec would remain at cold idle for a longer time in ~freezing weather.

The German government should focus on hilariously bad demographic policy, they have that one down pat,

stever said:

fintail said:

Aren't there legit conditions for emissions operation in extreme temps?

Guess you have to define "extreme".

Minus 20 used to be my personal cutoff for XC skiing.

Be curious to see what the EU number is and whether it's 40 or 50°F. Going by the extent of the NOX, my guess is that it's a pretty "warm" number.

ruking1

henryn said:

gagrice said:

I have owned PU trucks and SUVs since the early 1960s. And none of the gas powered have ever been better than 16-17 MPG. Including my 2006 GMC hybrid PU truck. My 2008 Nissan Frontier has a dandy V6 gas engine that has never yielded better than 17 MPG. I think if I drove it on the highway under 60 MPH I may squeeze 19-20 out of it. About what the EPA rates it at. I have no doubt if they would sell US the 4 cylinder diesel Nissan has all over the World I could get an easy 25 or more. About 35% better than I am getting now. Could be the Oil Companies and the EPA are in cahoots.

My new 2015 F150 (big truck, supercrew, 4 real doors, huge inside) is getting as high as 24 on the highway, and I have done full tanks at 21+ mpg. The is the new for 2015 2.7L twin turbo V6. And as I have said before, here in these forums -- it is faster and more fun to drive than the 2013 F150 with the 5.0L V8 that I traded in.

I think diesel definitely has a place. And I've always said so. I used to pull a 5th wheel travel trailer, which was in the neighborhood of 10,000 pounds fully loaded. First with a 98 Ford F250 with the big block V8 gas engine, 460 cid. That truck got an absolute best of 13 mpg on the highway with no load. With the 5th wheel, average around 8, low around 6.5 (head winds).

I upgraded to a 2000 F250 with the 7.3L diesel. Highway mpg, unloaded, was 18. Pulling the 5th wheel, 10.5 to 11 mpg. And it felt stronger, more comfortable with that huge load behind it.

So yes, I believe diesels have their place. I'm not at all convinced that place is in small passenger cars like the Jetta. But this is a free country, everyone is entitled to an opinion. Heck, if I was commuting 100 miles per day and gas was back at $4 a gallon, I just might change my mind!

But for now ...

I think basically, ONE has been ignoring MOST of the DIESEL PVF discussions in this thread!

"Light truck" diesels have always had a place in the American OEM's & markets! In fact, that market ( "light trucks") has slid from app 75%+ plus of the diesel passenger vehicle fleet (market) to app 50%. This has been true while the volume of diesels has increased! So if one is waking up to this: I bid one a good morning!

houdini1

Is anyone thinking that Mercedes might get caught up in this "scandal", whether right or wrong? Unlike Audi, Mercedes is still "certifying" their used diesels here.

ruking1

What a good crisis to waste? Or perhaps THE exercise of (internal) corporate muscle of big government & big labor unions & big investors (like Quatar sovereign funds) etc? http://www.bloomberg.com/gadfly/articles/2016-04-22/vw-fails-to-draw-a-line-on-diesel-scandal

andres3

fintail said:

Maybe it's gas prices, and that so many of the cars can kind of be penalty boxes? My friend who had the Prius C has said many times it was his first and last Prius.

stever said:

Our link is up (I hate to steal the home office's thunder - it's hard when they are always late out there in Pacific time. )

Hybrid and EV Loyalty Plunges Due to Low Gas Prices

That graphic reminds me - VW is shutting down production of the New Beetle as of the 2018 model year.

Don't people evaluate these things when they test drive the car, if they test drive the car?

Michaell

andres3 said:

fintail said:

Maybe it's gas prices, and that so many of the cars can kind of be penalty boxes? My friend who had the Prius C has said many times it was his first and last Prius.

stever said:

Our link is up (I hate to steal the home office's thunder - it's hard when they are always late out there in Pacific time. )

Hybrid and EV Loyalty Plunges Due to Low Gas Prices

That graphic reminds me - VW is shutting down production of the New Beetle as of the 2018 model year.

Don't people evaluate these things when they test drive the car, if they test drive the car?

I test drove a Prius C - I'm pretty lenient (or clueless) about a lot of stuff, but I don't think I could live with one as my DD, even though 90% of my driving is on city streets.

gagrice

HenryM
My new 2015 F150 (big truck, supercrew, 4 real doors, huge inside) is getting as high as 24 on the highway, and I have done full tanks at 21+ mpg. The is the new for 2015 2.7L twin turbo V6.

That seems in line with some other F150 owners. The overall average for the 2015-16 Ford PU with 2.7L V6 is 18.1. It is also 20% less than the competition. The Ram V6 diesel with 463 owners posting gets an average 22.6 MPG. If a PU was to be my main transportation, I would surely go for the Ram quad cab 4x4 diesel. I prefer traveling cross country in a more luxurious SUV. So will stick with what I have. I never get less than 28 MPG on the highway and have topped 32 MPG. Most of the 30,000 miles diesel has been lower priced than RUG.

That said, I would still like a smallish PU truck that gets 30+ MPG. Maybe Ford will start selling their T6 with a 4 cylinder diesel. The 2.2L diesel is rated 45 MPG UK combined. I could love a PU getting 37 MPG for running my daily errands etc.

Until then I will continue to pollute the environment with my gas hog Nissan Frontier. That's Life in a 3rd World country, at least for now.

gagrice

Michaell:
I test drove a Prius C - I'm pretty lenient (or clueless) about a lot of stuff, but I don't think I could live with one as my DD, even though 90% of my driving is on city streets.

I suggested a Prius to one of my best friends back in 2009. He bought one, then moved to Maui and shipped it over there. Sold it before moving back and bought a 2012 Prius. I rode in both and would NOT consider one for myself. He is a retired D8 Cat operator, so the ride probably seems ok to him. He also owned a 1990s Toyota PU truck, so comfort was never important to him.

He now lives in Idaho, and makes regular trips to San Diego to visit family and friends. I don't think mileage is important as he has no clue what he gets. I followed him through Los Angeles at 85 MPH in the HOV lane. I was sure we would get stopped. As for the Prius it is whatever turns you on. He and his wife love them and thank me for turning them on to them.

ruking1

gagrice said:

HenryM
My new 2015 F150 (big truck, supercrew, 4 real doors, huge inside) is getting as high as 24 on the highway, and I have done full tanks at 21+ mpg. The is the new for 2015 2.7L twin turbo V6.

That seems in line with some other F150 owners. The overall average for the 2015-16 Ford PU with 2.7L V6 is 18.1. It is also 20% less than the competition. The Ram V6 diesel with 463 owners posting gets an average 22.6 MPG. If a PU was to be my main transportation, I would surely go for the Ram quad cab 4x4 diesel. I prefer traveling cross country in a more luxurious SUV. So will stick with what I have. I never get less than 28 MPG on the highway and have topped 32 MPG. Most of the 30,000 miles diesel has been lower priced than RUG.

That said, I would still like a smallish PU truck that gets 30+ MPG. Maybe Ford will start selling their T6 with a 4 cylinder diesel. The 2.2L diesel is rated 45 MPG UK combined. I could love a PU getting 37 MPG for running my daily errands etc.

Until then I will continue to pollute the environment with my gas hog Nissan Frontier. That's Life in a 3rd World country, at least for now.

Given the "like" model or competitive models (18.1 mpg vs 22.6 mpg) , really one is talking about 26% BETTER MPG in the diesel!! This goes also to the HUGE gallonage fuel savings issue that the host has previously talked about. I am sure if it's googled , one can find the article Edmunds.com had about the gallonage issue.

ruking1

gagrice said:

Michaell:
I test drove a Prius C - I'm pretty lenient (or clueless) about a lot of stuff, but I don't think I could live with one as my DD, even though 90% of my driving is on city streets.

I suggested a Prius to one of my best friends back in 2009. He bought one, then moved to Maui and shipped it over there. Sold it before moving back and bought a 2012 Prius. I rode in both and would NOT consider one for myself. He is a retired D8 Cat operator, so the ride probably seems ok to him. He also owned a 1990s Toyota PU truck, so comfort was never important to him.

He now lives in Idaho, and makes regular trips to San Diego to visit family and friends. I don't think mileage is important as he has no clue what he gets. I followed him through Los Angeles at 85 MPH in the HOV lane. I was sure we would get stopped. As for the Prius it is whatever turns you on. He and his wife love them and thank me for turning them on to them.

I was entertained by your post! Anytime I've been in an HOV lane in the LA area, (ONLY) going 85 miles an hour, I needed to have eyes on the rear view mirror for some soon to arrive PO'd Jose, wanting to pass!

I found that if I want to take a more relaxed pace, (around 75 to 80 mph) it's best to be in one of the slower lanes.

Back to German diesels, do you think Angela Merkel has the chutzpah to do an Obama to ...Obama? https://www.yahoo.com/news/economy-security-crises-focus-obama-arrives-germany-112324605.html aka stop making German cars the scapegoat! Otherwise it's hard to "hear" past that!

stever

Drove the friend's Prius V to Mesilla yesterday - really forget that there's anything "special" about it just cruising around town chatting with friends and pointing out the sights. Would have had to think a second if someone had asked me how the Cruze drove. Just another sedan.

Mesilla is a trendy spot with narrow streets and not enough parking. So after dropping the women off to grab a table in the bar, I was wishing for a C - the V "feels" almost as big as the van when trying to parallel park.

Maybe a Smart car is the ticket.

"GASOLINE PRICES are up 21% year to date as relatively low prices at the pump, an unusually warm winter, and increased U.S. employment have spurred more drivers to hit the road.

Meanwhile, the distillate market, a category that includes diesel fuel and heating oil, is facing a serious glut."

Ironically, one factor (in addition to the mild winter) is the lack of demand for diesel to run drilling rigs.


Diesel Prices Could Soon Dip Below Gas Prices (Barrons)

ruking1

So what was the Priuses tankful mpg?

Yippee! Cheaper diesel prices ? & cheaper than RUG! ? LOL!

This must drive the Eco nuts establishments crazy, given the $10 per gallon goal ?

Still waiting for CA local $1.85 ULSD!

Slow diesel news day! ULSD @ $ 2.22, RUG @ 2.37!

To tell you the truth, even $1 50 per gallon would NOT change (increase miles, per se ) my driving behavior!

However, at 417 gals (come on L&G, this is not rocket science, but however repetitive) 36 miles mpg, 15,000 miles per yr, it would make one commute $300 cheaper per yr! I can't wait!

What we don't like is the mind numbing & stressful delays due to governments congestion policies. The normal congestion policies ALSO increase engine idle times, which paradoxically increases ever greater pollution & ever greater fuel use! This I think is the real goal, despite protestations to the contrary.

stever

12 year low in summer fuel prices for both gas and diesel predicted. Road trip!

texases

Diesel below RUG for the first time in years here in DFW, $1.94 vs. $1.95

stever

My old Anchorage friend who had the diesel pickup that would gel at 35 degrees just went out and got a 4x4 diesel Sprinter.

It's okay though, his wife and kid both drive Priuses.

ruking1

Gel @ @35 F?

SLT, CA is routinely @ that & below! It would appear the ULSD provider is not adding the correct additives.

Got to love 40 mpg & 236 # of torque 2009 Jetta TDI vs 40 mpg @ 82 # ft torque Prius ?

Long road back to trust for the car industry ? As a whole?
https://www.yahoo.com/news/long-road-trust-car-industry-193038824--politics.html

My take? Businesses are being trimmed and punished by governments ! Specifically: approximately minus - 13%! Aka, look for pretty massive job losses! There are massive opportunities during business beat downs!

andres3

Diesel has been below regular unleaded gas for along time now in CA. Consistently so the last 2 years.

stever

35 - 40. All I remember is that he was not a happy camper when summer shut down. Btw, the reason they got the Sprinter was so they could go chase snow, if not in Valdez, then down in BC. There's not much falling in Anchorage lately.

In the news (well, an oped from Bloomberg)::

"Thus far investigations and prosecutions have focused largely on nitrous oxide emissions from diesel engines. But given the scope of the problems and cheating exposed, there's little reason to believe the scandal won't spread to gasoline engines and carbon dioxide emissions, which are considered a prime cause of climate change.

In fact, VW was already caught falsifying CO2 emissions, and testing by the International Council on Clean Transportation, which first discovered the company's diesel cheating, shows there are major gaps between carbon dioxide lab results and real-world driving."

fintail

Real world conditions and test bed conditions aren't the same, and will produce different results? Shocking! I am flabbergasted! What will the greenies who so often practice what they preach discover next? Well, we know they won't discover the courage to chase after commercial vehicle pollution.

fintail

I think it seemed fine on the 10 minute suburban road test drive

Funny thing, he came from a car that I think you also had - 03 Accord V6 coupe (lost a transmission at 70K, started developing electrical issues at about 160K). Must have been culture shock. I still don't see how he made that choice, and I don't know if he does either.

He also wanted a diesel Passat, but didn't like the dealers, I think.

andres3 said:

Don't people evaluate these things when they test drive the car, if they test drive the car?

ruking1

This is totally a guess, but my take he would have had way less issues with a 2003 Jetta, Passat TDI.

Interesting take from a Redding, CA recyclers point of view on affected VW TDI's, IF the recycle route is chosen. http://www.wired.com/2016/04/vws-bleak-options-dealing-500000-recalled-diesels/

andres3

fintail said:

I think it seemed fine on the 10 minute suburban road test drive

Funny thing, he came from a car that I think you also had - 03 Accord V6 coupe (lost a transmission at 70K, started developing electrical issues at about 160K). Must have been culture shock. I still don't see how he made that choice, and I don't know if he does either.

He also wanted a diesel Passat, but didn't like the dealers, I think.

andres3 said:

Don't people evaluate these things when they test drive the car, if they test drive the car?

Ah, yes, the '03 Accord Coupe with a V6, a very fine car, but yes, the transmission would die. Luckily for me Honda paid for it 100%. Otherwise a very good car, solid, if uninspiring to drive. They put skinny 16" tires on the LX V6 versions.

fintail

His was a loaded EX, everything except nav (I think it was first available that year). Warranty covered his car too, but he was always leery about it from that time onward, and I remember it did have kind of a gear whine. It was bulletproof other than that, but after 160K or so it started having hiccups.

Regarding the TDis of the era, a co-worker had a new 04 (.5 - more chrome trim) Jetta TDi. Mechanically fine, but it had numerous electrical issues. My favorite is when the stereo died, he took it in for a replacement under warranty, they returned the car to him with the stereo installed but the dash still half disassembled. I was with him when he picked it up, had to laugh. This guy disliked the local VW dealer and would take his car to one an hour away for service. He ended up selling it when fuel prices peaked in 08 - he rolled over a few grand in negative equity when he bought it, and still came out a couple grand ahead. Diesels were a huge thing then.

andres3 said:

Ah, yes, the '03 Accord Coupe with a V6, a very fine car, but yes, the transmission would die. Luckily for me Honda paid for it 100%. Otherwise a very good car, solid, if uninspiring to drive. They put skinny 16" tires on the LX V6 versions.

gagrice

Fintail: I think it seemed fine on the 10 minute suburban road test drive

I would say that is about average for So California car dealers. They always go along and give you a turn by turn direction. Was that way with Subaru, Toyota, Chevy, BMW, MB and most VW dealers. The VW dealer I bought from let me drive as far up the coast and then inland for well over an hour test drive of the Touareg TDI. He did not care how long or how far we drove. He seemed to be enjoying his time away from the dealership.