1. If you are leasing the car for 24 months and the first payment is “waived”. How many payments will I make 23 or 24?
23 payments.
2. With a “sign and drive” lease. Are there any out of pocket expenses due at signing?
Sign and drive is a marketing name and could mean anything. What are the terms of the lease?
If they imply that it's $0 down, as in just sign and drive away, then you only have to make the first payment up front, but as you mentioned that is waived so techincally you have $0 out of pocket expenses for the lease.
You will however have to pay for insurance, and if applicable, title, or registration.
In my experience, sign and drive means $0 due at signing. Dealer pays your first month's payment, tax, title, registration, etc. That leaves you to supply excellent credit and a signing hand.
In my experience, sign and drive means $0 due at signing. Dealer pays your first month's payment, tax, title, registration, etc. That leaves you to supply excellent credit and a signing hand.
Usually, all that stuff gets rolled into the lease.
Thanks for your reply, volvomax. I'm going to sign off on this deal tomorrow and the only fee that the dealer is hedging on is the cost of the plates.
19490 base price 1169.40 sales tax @6% 45.00 documentation fee (maximum allowed by NY) 10.00 inspection 10.00 Interstate transit permit 12.50 NY State Waste Tire fee ? whatever PA charges for plates would be extra 20736.90 new total for car
You mentioned the 3rd party title service. The dealer said he intends to use a 3rd party service to get the plates for us. He intends to pass the cost of that service plus the cost of the plates onto us. Shouldnt the cost of using a 3rd party service for any type of processing be covered by the agreed-upon documentation fee? I figured once I agreed to pay this $45 doc fee, I could expect the actual tags, registration, and title transfer costs to be the same as if I walked into a PA DMV office and handled it myself.
Since I've put my numbers in this email, I'd like to ask you and anyone else reading about sales tax. The dealer quoted 6% when he should have quoted 7%. Do you think it is necessary to correct this before we close the deal? I'm thinking it doesnt make a difference. I expect that once the title transfer to my home state has been completed, the DMV will come looking for me to pay use tax and at that time they will discover I didnt pay enough up front and I will be asked to pay the other 1%. So I could pay it all now or wait for the DMV to catch the error later and pay the rest at that point, I suppose.
I would guess that you need to speak up now about the sales tax. The whole reason they sent you a quote was to look over and see if you agree with the figures. Not fixing it now will slow down your title work
I would verify the sales tax rate as well as the jurisdiction. Make your life easy now rather than complicated later. In my state you have 30 days to file the use tax return or you will be subject to late fees and interest. In your case, it is not worth the 1% error
So confirm that the dealership is using the correct sales tax rate for your jurisdiction and correct the dealer. In today's economic crisis, State Departments of Revenue are aggressively perusing shortfalls.
"...I would verify the sales tax rate as well as the jurisdiction..."
I agree, particularly if it involves NY state sales tax. A bigger bunch of thugs you have never seen. I would rather have the FBI, IRS and CIA after me than these goons.
This is the same bunch which has pulled stunts such as sending 3 burly agents to the home of an 8 year old to threaten him with jail if he did not collect sales tax on the worms he was selling as bait in his driveway. They also send agents to malls in NJ to record NY licence plates so they can send the owners nasty letters at Christmas time demanding tax on out-of-state purchases. They also call in struggling business owners and tell them "your type of business should be making more money so we want you to pay sales tax on what WE THINK you should be making".
Beware, you are dealing with the devil!
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Typically, a Doc Fee only covers the cost of doing plates in the state where the dealer does business. However, most Doc Fees are just air. If the 3rd party title co service fee isn't too much, there is no reason why the selling dealer can't just absorb it.
Why not just sell it, even at a substantial loss? Isn't it costing money just sitting there? It's certainly depreciating on the lot.
The dealer I'm thinking about is a local Chrysler dealer with 8-10 2007 Chryslers (some Crossfires, Pacificas, PT Cruisers, and a 300) in his used car inventory, but all are listed at less than 10 miles, meaning they're probably new, unsold stock which was handed over to the used car department. (I used to work there as a parts go-fer 15 years ago, and that's what they did with the old stock back then.) It's just odd the dealer hasn't found a way to dump these cars by now. And this is in a major metro area, so it's not like there aren't potential customers around.
"They're counting on that one customer who will come and buy it at cost so they can minimize their losses.
That wait can be a long one as we have one 07 still left over. "
I understand that, but I just checked their online inventory, and they're showing 12(!) unsold '07s, and even an unsold '06 (a PT Cruiser GT convertible). Wow! You'd think they'd just dump them wholesale or something at this point. If they're not sold by now, what are the odds they're going to get sold in the next 12 months, just waiting for the right customer to stroll in?
Farmers have a saying "Your first loss is your best loss" meaning it is better to get rid of a depreciating asset like tomatoes (or cars) sooner rather than later. I never understood the logic of keeping a lot queen around forever as it loses value.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
i bought my '07 fusion in march of '08. it was built in 12-06. the dealer had 4 of the exact same car until about a week before i bought mine. someone bought 1 of the 4, then i bought mine. of course a couple of weeks after i bought mine, the incentives got better. i remember it, but i don't really think about the extra money i could have saved.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Most likely, those cars have been paid off, so the dealer owns them outright. Dealers, like everyone else, hate losing money. Since they own the cars already, they can wait for the right buyer. There is an axiom in the car biz that there is an [non-permissible content removed] for every seat.
They may own the car outright but it is still costing them money to keep the car on the lot. Either they borrowed the money to buy the car outright and they are paying interest on that money or they sink their own money into it and its not available to use for other things that will make money for the dealership.
Say its a $20K car and they could have sold it for a $2K loss two years ago. Wouldn't it make more sense to take the $2K loss and use the $18K to build up inventory that sells faster and earn $2K or more in two years or keep it for two years and still have $20K sunk in something that doesn't move?
Sometimes you have to take a loss and take it early.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
It's a very old debate. Most dealers won't take a loss at all if they can help it. Even if it means sitting on inventory. If you have $3-5 million wrapped up in inventory, $20k isn't gonna make you or break you. However, taking losses on cars can and does get sales managers fired. Owners don't mind spending $$ on inventory. They DO mind it when you take a hit.
Sales managers know this, hence the tendency to keep a car until you get what you want for it.
These are new 07's in question, and sometimes you simply don't have a customer. Even if you do want to take a small loss. You can't do anything until you have a buyer. We had a leftover 07 XC90 until July 08. no buyer interested in the car. Finally, we found someone who paid what we wanted. We got out of the car, no loss.
Which of two identical cars would you consider to be worth more, A car with 100K with original motor or a car with 100K which had the motor rebuilt at 80K?
I have my own ideas but I'm just curious what the rest of the world thinks.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
If you are talking about relatively modern cars which are not specialty-built or exotic in any way, then there's no difference in value IMO since every used car is supposed to have a motor in it that's functioning; so you don't 'enhance' the value by putting in a rebuilt (although it might make a good "selling point").
Rebuilts have their own risk after all----who did the rebuild, did they disturb various parts of the car, etc.
Rebuilts also bring up doubts ----what's with these engines that they need rebuilding in 80K miles?
So the "advantage' of the rebuilt is offset by the unmolested qualities of an original untouched motor.
EXCEPTION: If it were 200K on a car with original engine, versus a rebuilt motor at 180K, I might think differently, but even there, the value would not be all that much.
Depending on the make/model, I would go with the car that has the original engine. My suspicion would be that the previous owner of the one with the rebuilt engine drove the car pretty hard.
With today's cars, meaning anything less than about 5 years old, I would wonder what happened to that motor to cause to have to be rebuilt at 80K and if it was abuse that cause it need to be rebuilt. Most any vehicle will go well past 100K with out a major rebuild on the motor and so if the motor needed to be rebuilt, what else was neglected that will also need attention??
There could be a good reason e.g. timing belt failure or something similar.
With an engine that has 80K on it what are the odds that it was something like that over neglect or abuse? I would suspect that for every one that was caused by a bad timing belt or something similar there are a multitude that was caused by never changing the oil or something similar.
That being said I agree that I would shy away from the rebuilt simply because at 80K miles there should be no reason for a rebuild.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
"Rebuilt" is a term that is abused about as much as "No, I REALLY do love you".
I'd hazard a guess that about 90% of all engines advertised as "rebuilt" are not in fact 'rebuilt" at all.
REBUILT should mean that every part of that engine has been re-machined, or replaced, to meet exact factory specs.
OVERHAULED means that the bad parts were replaced and the still good parts left alone. For example, new valves, rings and bearing, but crankshaft and camshaft remain the same, untouched, as do cylinder walls, oil pump, etc.
REPAIRED or UPPER END WORK is when you throw a timing belt and so they level the cylinder head, insert new valves and guides, put on a gasket and a new belt and change the oil. That is certainly not "rebuilt".
It costs at least $5,000 to rebuild and install an engine in a modern car, if you do everything you are supposed to and take care of the 'as long as you're in there' parts as well....new belts,hoses, clutch, water pump, radiator, blah blah.
I can't tell you how many times I see a car with a "rebuilt engine", and ask to see the receipts for it, only to find a repair order that says, in one line
"remove engine, rebuild, re-install same"
Tells me nothing. Sometimes the cost of the work is a hint but still no details. That is a shabby shop if you ask me.
So what is this "rebuilt" engine. There is a vast difference between a factory long block installed by a dealer and some vague "rebuild engine" repair order from a Conoco station.
Excellent, although I would think that your 90% guess is still too low. Very few cars are valuable enough to justify a true engine rebuild.
"New engine" is another phrase that, (to a lesser extent), is sometimes used rather loosely. It often translates to: "newer used engine with undocumented mileage and maintenance history".
If the "rebuilt" engine does not have a detailed repair order that goes with it, just disregard it as anything of substantial worth in a used car.
If there's a $6,000 --$10,000 bill from the dealer for a factory short block or long block (crate engine) ---well, that's impressive. Or a $20,000 bill for a Mercedes or a $60,000 bill for a Ferrari.
I'm looking at buying, but the prices on dealer websites and Auto Trader are all over the map for what appear to be similar vehicles. That is why I am trying to get a 3rd party type of pricing to give me an idea of what is real and what is overly optimistic pricing.
Autotrader prices shouldn't be all over the map if you are carefully reading the ads for trim level, options, mileage and geographical location.
One thing you can do is "advanced search" in autotrader, whereby you narrow down the cars you are looking at in terms of say mileage limits for one thing, or automatic vs. manual shift. You can also enter "keywords" into advanced search.
Then, once you hit "search" and get say 15 cars nationwide with under 100,000 miles with automatic transmission and trimmed in the LS or EXT or whatever level, --- if you then look at the bottom of the page you'll see a High, Low and AVERAGE price for all the cars you've been shown.
This average price is, IMO, very close to market value---once you have the average price, just deduct another 5-10% since these are asking prices.
Thanks Boomchek, I'm in Winnipeg and starting to look to replace our 2nd car which is on its last legs. I'd prefer to wait till it dies completely but want to know if I stumble across anything in the meantime if it is a good deal. So there is no "this is exactly what I'm looking for". Generally, it is a 4wd/awd compact SUV, compact Crew Cab, maybe a crossover if it can tow 2000-2500Lbs. Probably a 2007, maybe a 2006.
I've been checking out some posted vehicles against Kelly Black Book online and the dealers here are generally asking 50-60% over top blackbook price. At what point does it change from a fair deal to a 'clubbing'?
At what point does it change from a fair deal to a 'clubbing'?
If you see all smiliar models in the same range, then that's just what the market is. Sometimes we will pay over book for "hot" cars that we know we can flip quickly and make some decent money on.
CRVs, and RAV4s will always fetch a premium, even though the CRV I think is rated for only 1500LBS towing capacity.
Mazda Tribute and it's twin the Ford Escape are more down to earth in pricing, but keep in mind some older Ford and Mazda trucks/SUVs only had a short 3 year/60k powertrain warranty, unlike their cars whihc had a normal 5 year/100k warranty.
The Jeep Patriot is a decent SUV but you won't get much towing done in one.
The Equinoxes and Saturn Vues should be more normally priced too, as they have low book values relative to the imports.
Another decent one that we can't keep on the lot because they sell really fast is the Jeep Liberty, especially the Renegade edition. They are all 3.7L V6s however and will consume a little more gas than a 4 banger. But they came out in 03 I think, up to 07 before being redesigned.
I'd stay away from the old Blazers and Jimmies. They're inexpensive but they are really outdated and will guzzle a lot of gas with their big 4,3L V6.
Any Subarus are good too, but they carry a price premium, and might get pricey to fix later on.
Last but not least, look at a Nissan X Trail. Fuel efficient 4 cylinder, and lots of space. They sort of have a cult following. If you can get past the centre mounted gauge cluster, then they make a decent crossover too for a decent price.
Local Ford dealership is closing at the end of January so I went by the other day to check on a Flex/Taurus X. They had a few in stock but were not prepared to go lower than the standard Employee Pricing Plus Cash. I already had quotes from another local Ford dealer for lower but they not interested in going any lower. I'm not in a huge rush to buy right now so I don't really care. They said their new stock will go back to Ford and their used to a wholesaler should they not sell by the end of next week. A bit strange I thought.
Otherwise if they didn't care about how much they lose on each unit, then the staff might as well buy up their own dealership's inventory for $1/each, and resell it privately.
Comments
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
23 payments.
2. With a “sign and drive” lease. Are there any out of pocket expenses due at signing?
Sign and drive is a marketing name and could mean anything. What are the terms of the lease?
If they imply that it's $0 down, as in just sign and drive away, then you only have to make the first payment up front, but as you mentioned that is waived so techincally you have $0 out of pocket expenses for the lease.
You will however have to pay for insurance, and if applicable, title, or registration.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
In Canada, or at least in BC, you have to pay for the registration and insurance up front.
So here it's "Sign and pay for registration/insurance and then drive lease event"
Maybe in the US is different.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
Usually, all that stuff gets rolled into the lease.
19490 base price
1169.40 sales tax @6%
45.00 documentation fee (maximum allowed by NY)
10.00 inspection
10.00 Interstate transit permit
12.50 NY State Waste Tire fee
? whatever PA charges for plates would be extra
20736.90 new total for car
You mentioned the 3rd party title service. The dealer said he intends to use a 3rd party service to get the plates for us. He intends to pass the cost of that service plus the cost of the plates onto us. Shouldnt the cost of using a 3rd party service for any type of processing be covered by the agreed-upon documentation fee? I figured once I agreed to pay this $45 doc fee, I could expect the actual tags, registration, and title transfer costs to be the same as if I walked into a PA DMV office and handled it myself.
Since I've put my numbers in this email, I'd like to ask you and anyone else reading about sales tax. The dealer quoted 6% when he should have quoted 7%. Do you think it is necessary to correct this before we close the deal? I'm thinking it doesnt make a difference. I expect that once the title transfer to my home state has been completed, the DMV will come looking for me to pay use tax and at that time they will discover I didnt pay enough up front and I will be asked to pay the other 1%. So I could pay it all now or wait for the DMV to catch the error later and pay the rest at that point, I suppose.
So confirm that the dealership is using the correct sales tax rate for your jurisdiction and correct the dealer. In today's economic crisis, State Departments of Revenue are aggressively perusing shortfalls.
I agree, particularly if it involves NY state sales tax. A bigger bunch of thugs you have never seen. I would rather have the FBI, IRS and CIA after me than these goons.
This is the same bunch which has pulled stunts such as sending 3 burly agents to the home of an 8 year old to threaten him with jail if he did not collect sales tax on the worms he was selling as bait in his driveway. They also send agents to malls in NJ to record NY licence plates so they can send the owners nasty letters at Christmas time demanding tax on out-of-state purchases. They also call in struggling business owners and tell them "your type of business should be making more money so we want you to pay sales tax on what WE THINK you should be making".
Beware, you are dealing with the devil!
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
However, most Doc Fees are just air.
If the 3rd party title co service fee isn't too much, there is no reason why the selling dealer can't just absorb it.
The dealer I'm thinking about is a local Chrysler dealer with 8-10 2007 Chryslers (some Crossfires, Pacificas, PT Cruisers, and a 300) in his used car inventory, but all are listed at less than 10 miles, meaning they're probably new, unsold stock which was handed over to the used car department. (I used to work there as a parts go-fer 15 years ago, and that's what they did with the old stock back then.) It's just odd the dealer hasn't found a way to dump these cars by now. And this is in a major metro area, so it's not like there aren't potential customers around.
That wait can be a long one as we have one 07 still left over.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
That wait can be a long one as we have one 07 still left over. "
I understand that, but I just checked their online inventory, and they're showing 12(!) unsold '07s, and even an unsold '06 (a PT Cruiser GT convertible). Wow! You'd think they'd just dump them wholesale or something at this point. If they're not sold by now, what are the odds they're going to get sold in the next 12 months, just waiting for the right customer to stroll in?
Do we hold on and hope someobdy will pay cost or $1k below cost for this car, or do we dump it and take a $5k hit on it at the auction?
Times by 12 cars = $60k hit
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
Farmers have a saying "Your first loss is your best loss" meaning it is better to get rid of a depreciating asset like tomatoes (or cars) sooner rather than later. I never understood the logic of keeping a lot queen around forever as it loses value.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Not only does it lose value it also costs the dealership to keep it in inventory.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Leave it on the lot long enough and it will stink to high heaven.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
the dealer had 4 of the exact same car until about a week before i bought mine.
someone bought 1 of the 4, then i bought mine.
of course a couple of weeks after i bought mine, the incentives got better.
i remember it, but i don't really think about the extra money i could have saved.
Dealers, like everyone else, hate losing money.
Since they own the cars already, they can wait for the right buyer.
There is an axiom in the car biz that there is an [non-permissible content removed] for every seat.
Say its a $20K car and they could have sold it for a $2K loss two years ago. Wouldn't it make more sense to take the $2K loss and use the $18K to build up inventory that sells faster and earn $2K or more in two years or keep it for two years and still have $20K sunk in something that doesn't move?
Sometimes you have to take a loss and take it early.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Most dealers won't take a loss at all if they can help it.
Even if it means sitting on inventory.
If you have $3-5 million wrapped up in inventory, $20k isn't gonna make you or break you.
However, taking losses on cars can and does get sales managers fired.
Owners don't mind spending $$ on inventory. They DO mind it when you take a hit.
Sales managers know this, hence the tendency to keep a car until you get what you want for it.
These are new 07's in question, and sometimes you simply don't have a customer.
Even if you do want to take a small loss.
You can't do anything until you have a buyer.
We had a leftover 07 XC90 until July 08. no buyer interested in the car.
Finally, we found someone who paid what we wanted. We got out of the car, no loss.
I have my own ideas but I'm just curious what the rest of the world thinks.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Rebuilts have their own risk after all----who did the rebuild, did they disturb various parts of the car, etc.
Rebuilts also bring up doubts ----what's with these engines that they need rebuilding in 80K miles?
So the "advantage' of the rebuilt is offset by the unmolested qualities of an original untouched motor.
EXCEPTION: If it were 200K on a car with original engine, versus a rebuilt motor at 180K, I might think differently, but even there, the value would not be all that much.
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
It's very hard to verify what exactly was rebuilt in a motor, and if it was done properly unless paperwork is shown.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
With an engine that has 80K on it what are the odds that it was something like that over neglect or abuse? I would suspect that for every one that was caused by a bad timing belt or something similar there are a multitude that was caused by never changing the oil or something similar.
That being said I agree that I would shy away from the rebuilt simply because at 80K miles there should be no reason for a rebuild.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I'd hazard a guess that about 90% of all engines advertised as "rebuilt" are not in fact 'rebuilt" at all.
REBUILT should mean that every part of that engine has been re-machined, or replaced, to meet exact factory specs.
OVERHAULED means that the bad parts were replaced and the still good parts left alone. For example, new valves, rings and bearing, but crankshaft and camshaft remain the same, untouched, as do cylinder walls, oil pump, etc.
REPAIRED or UPPER END WORK is when you throw a timing belt and so they level the cylinder head, insert new valves and guides, put on a gasket and a new belt and change the oil. That is certainly not "rebuilt".
It costs at least $5,000 to rebuild and install an engine in a modern car, if you do everything you are supposed to and take care of the 'as long as you're in there' parts as well....new belts,hoses, clutch, water pump, radiator, blah blah.
I can't tell you how many times I see a car with a "rebuilt engine", and ask to see the receipts for it, only to find a repair order that says, in one line
"remove engine, rebuild, re-install same"
Tells me nothing. Sometimes the cost of the work is a hint but still no details. That is a shabby shop if you ask me.
So what is this "rebuilt" engine. There is a vast difference between a factory long block installed by a dealer and some vague "rebuild engine" repair order from a Conoco station.
"New engine" is another phrase that, (to a lesser extent), is sometimes used rather loosely. It often translates to: "newer used engine with undocumented mileage and maintenance history".
If the "rebuilt" engine does not have a detailed repair order that goes with it, just disregard it as anything of substantial worth in a used car.
If there's a $6,000 --$10,000 bill from the dealer for a factory short block or long block (crate engine) ---well, that's impressive. Or a $20,000 bill for a Mercedes or a $60,000 bill for a Ferrari.
Can I use Canadian Black Book values + some percentage to get what would be a fair number at a dealership?
Thanks
You cna use black book,, but you mightbe way off on numbers because we dealers use it as a guide.
Are you selling, buying, or trading a car in?
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
One thing you can do is "advanced search" in autotrader, whereby you narrow down the cars you are looking at in terms of say mileage limits for one thing, or automatic vs. manual shift. You can also enter "keywords" into advanced search.
Then, once you hit "search" and get say 15 cars nationwide with under 100,000 miles with automatic transmission and trimmed in the LS or EXT or whatever level, --- if you then look at the bottom of the page you'll see a High, Low and AVERAGE price for all the cars you've been shown.
This average price is, IMO, very close to market value---once you have the average price, just deduct another 5-10% since these are asking prices.
I'm in Vancouver BC. I might be able to give you an idea of price range.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
I've been checking out some posted vehicles against Kelly Black Book online and the dealers here are generally asking 50-60% over top blackbook price. At what point does it change from a fair deal to a 'clubbing'?
If you see all smiliar models in the same range, then that's just what the market is. Sometimes we will pay over book for "hot" cars that we know we can flip quickly and make some decent money on.
CRVs, and RAV4s will always fetch a premium, even though the CRV I think is rated for only 1500LBS towing capacity.
Mazda Tribute and it's twin the Ford Escape are more down to earth in pricing, but keep in mind some older Ford and Mazda trucks/SUVs only had a short 3 year/60k powertrain warranty, unlike their cars whihc had a normal 5 year/100k warranty.
The Jeep Patriot is a decent SUV but you won't get much towing done in one.
The Equinoxes and Saturn Vues should be more normally priced too, as they have low book values relative to the imports.
Another decent one that we can't keep on the lot because they sell really fast is the Jeep Liberty, especially the Renegade edition. They are all 3.7L V6s however and will consume a little more gas than a 4 banger. But they came out in 03 I think, up to 07 before being redesigned.
I'd stay away from the old Blazers and Jimmies. They're inexpensive but they are really outdated and will guzzle a lot of gas with their big 4,3L V6.
Any Subarus are good too, but they carry a price premium, and might get pricey to fix later on.
Last but not least, look at a Nissan X Trail. Fuel efficient 4 cylinder, and lots of space. They sort of have a cult following. If you can get past the centre mounted gauge cluster, then they make a decent crossover too for a decent price.
Good luck
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
It's a Honda and doesn't break. Road comfort is very good with its aggressive treaded tires. It's full-time all wheel drive.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
I guess it's the same all over. Here, (upstate NY) they ask 2-3K over KBB retail prices. I just don't get the "home run" mentality.
BTW, here it's called Kelley Blue Book.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible